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Exklusiv: Lagarde zum spanischen Schuldenplan: "Lasst es uns debattieren"
Die EZB-Präsidentin sagte Euronews im Exklusivinterview, Europa brauche klar einen von den Märkten als sicher und liquide gesehenen Vermögenswert, der mit den USA konkurrieren kann.
LESEN SIE MEHR : http://de.euronews.com/2026/07/09/exklusiv-lagarde-spanische-schuldenplan-interview
Abonnieren Sie! Euronews gibt es in 12 Sprachen.
Die EZB-Präsidentin sagte Euronews im Exklusivinterview, Europa brauche klar einen von den Märkten als sicher und liquide gesehenen Vermögenswert, der mit den USA konkurrieren kann.
LESEN SIE MEHR : http://de.euronews.com/2026/07/09/exklusiv-lagarde-spanische-schuldenplan-interview
Abonnieren Sie! Euronews gibt es in 12 Sprachen.
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NewsTranskript
00:08Präsident Lagarde, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews at this very pivotal time for Europe.
00:13This is a transformational moment in so many ways.
00:15When you look at the economy, the geopolitics, a war that is still going on in this continent,
00:20and then of course many other forces like the AI, which could have severe implications in the way that we
00:25live, that we work.
00:26Ultimately, when you put all these factors together, where is this continent going?
00:30It's navigating all those changes, and it's doing it with, I think, an agenda of significant reforms that have to
00:40be implemented,
00:41with a roadmap which has been designed a couple of years ago now by my predecessor Mario Draghi and Enrico
00:48Letta,
00:49and where we just have to implement collectively what will make Europe more competitive and more fit for the 21st
00:55century,
00:56which is, as you said, fragmented, different geopolitically, and obviously to be transformed significantly by artificial intelligence on steroids.
01:05What do you mean by on steroids?
01:07I think that artificial intelligence is going through accelerated phases of development.
01:13So people will talk to you about Gen AI.
01:16They will now talk about ASI, super intelligence, and I think that we all have to adapt to it,
01:23but we also have to be mindful of the goods and the bads. By good, I mean improved productivity. By
01:29bad, what will be the consequences on us as a society, on the labor market in general?
01:35What impact will it have? And we have to prepare for that.
01:37On the AI very much reflects the conversation about the geopolitics. Many would say this is now a two-track
01:41competition as the United States and China.
01:44The EU will not be able to compete at that level. Is that a fair assessment?
01:48And I wonder, certainly in this town of Brussels, there's a lot of hype around Mistral. This is almost seen
01:53as a strategic asset.
01:55Is it wise to bet everything on a single company or do we need an ecosystem around AI?
01:59There are two very big champions in terms of AI development and hyperscalers, the United States and China.
02:06There are countries in the European Union which are regarded as third and in the race.
02:14I think the question is how you define the race and how you make sure that you are not held
02:19hostage to certain developments that are critical
02:21and that you have some leverage on elements of the supply chain.
02:28Mistral is obviously a champion in its own way.
02:32And I think that if the Europeans decide that it's in their collective interest to focus on Mistral, for instance,
02:39but maybe a couple of others because you don't want to have just Plan A and nothing else,
02:43but that you focus on having sovereignty over developments so that you can make sure that your clouds, for instance,
02:50is possibly of a European standing nature and sitting, that some of your artificial intelligence devices,
02:58some of the tools, for instance, are critically made in Europe, invented in Europe.
03:03You bind all these components and you then have a good dialogue with those who are ahead of you in
03:11other areas.
03:12But I think it's a question of really linking, binding and making sure that we protect some of our interests
03:18and leverage those in order to better negotiate.
03:21And my impression is that you don't like to lose and you want Europe to win.
03:24So what is the recipe when you talk to finance ministers in Brussels?
03:28And I wonder, you mentioned Mario Draghi, I wonder if you speak frequently,
03:31if there's a regular communication with him, what is the recipe that you put on the table?
03:35I think we share the same objective, that Europe wins, that Europe is competitive,
03:40that Europe leverage its incredible potential, the market, the talent, the capital, the savings.
03:47And I think that, you know, if I had two words for the finance ministers whom I love and I
03:54was one of them,
03:55it's action more than words and it's accelerate more than procrastinate.
04:02Do you have to do that at 27 or can you do it at 6? As a head of the
04:05European Central Bank, I presume you would like to maintain unity at all levels.
04:09That is what guides Europe. But should that change now?
04:12We all need to move together. That's the strength. We are stronger altogether.
04:17Now, if it takes a smaller number of them to actually move forward and bring the others with them a
04:24little later
04:24because they will have experimented, so be it. It's, you know, it's a principle that can be adopted,
04:30that is anticipated by the treaty as well. So why not?
04:34So move ahead. And to that extent, the Spanish just this week, they presented a plan before the Eurogroup of
04:39joint borrowing.
04:40The idea of joint debt is very political in essence in Europe, but just on the economic merit of it.
04:46They say it will create a more liquid market. It will save money and it will be more efficient just
04:52on economic terms.
04:53Is that something that is ahead of the European Central Bank? You say, let's look at it.
04:57You know, it's more than just economic terms. It's also financial terms. Because to have a strong, vibrant and deep
05:03capital market,
05:04which is something that we all want, at least everybody says so, we need to also have…
05:09You think some don't?
05:10We need to… Well, I think everybody sings from the same Heim song, but when it comes to implementing it,
05:17it's difficult and the devil is in the details.
05:19But it's pretty obvious that we also need to have a European asset which can, you know, parallel with the
05:26US Treasury bonds, for instance.
05:28How we go about it, how the moral hazard is addressed, how it's allocated in terms of results to be
05:35decided.
05:36And I think it's great that a country like Spain, for instance, makes a proposal, puts it on the table
05:41for debate.
05:42And it's now for the others to say, OK, we like this part, we don't like this, we can address
05:46it.
05:47So it's good to actually move forward.
05:49So when you hear these numbers, 800 billion euros, Mario Draghi echoed that, the Spanish seem to be putting that
05:54on the table.
05:55The French president has said, in his view, there are no taboos. That doesn't scare you.
05:58When you hear 800 billion euros, this kind of money…
06:01Look, remember what we did for COVID. That was the amount that was actually put on the table for joint
06:07borrowing in order to respond and to produce the recovery and…
06:12What was it? RRF.
06:14The…
06:14Recovery and Resilience.
06:15Yeah, Recovery and Resilience Fund. That was roughly the amount. And the Commission went to market. We helped in the
06:22process because we act as an agent in that respect.
06:25And it was widely, you know, broadly subscribed, oversubscribed. So I'm not saying that this is the amount. I'm just
06:32saying that to go with the capital market, you need depth, you need liquidity,
06:38and you need to entice the savings of Europe onto that market. But we need an instrument as well. And
06:46that could be one or an elaboration or an iteration of that.
06:51And what's it going to take to convince countries that would say absolutely not? Because by the same token, we
06:57said the Recovery Fund, legally, was a one-off.
07:00Yeah, that was said in certain circumstances. I think the circumstances have changed and it should lead the leaders of
07:09the various member states to consider and to address what are their concerns.
07:13So I think an ex ante no over my dead body is not the best way to deal with it.
07:20I think the best way to deal with it is to try to analyze what is too much of a
07:24risk and how that risk can be addressed.
07:27And the world has changed because of Vladimir Putin, because of President Trump. And we've heard the criticism that Europeans
07:34are weak, they're decaying, civilizational erasure.
07:36They say we are facing that prospect of Europe becoming a museum or is it also the Chinese? Is this
07:41a combination that has changed Europe now in the medium term? We've got to wake up.
07:46You know, first of all, there is nothing wrong with European culture. And whether it is tourism, whether it is
07:51museum, whether it is attracting people to a place which has a vibrant culture…
07:56It's a movement that says museum and the Europe pours. Well, I will tell you something. Is that the algorithm
08:01I wonder?
08:01I'll tell you something. If you visit a few industrial entrepreneurial centers, including in the field of artificial intelligence, including
08:10in the field of high techs, you would be surprised that this is not a museum.
08:15This is a very, very active and rich with talent economy. But the key thing is to make sure that
08:24money goes in the right direction. Money should not necessarily leave Europe. It should stay in Europe to finance initiatives.
08:30And ultimately, what is the biggest driving force? Is it President Trump? It seems to me when I look at
08:36NATO on the G7, the Europeans have now decided we are not going to publicize a divorce, but we understand
08:41the relationship is changing and we've got to do our own thing.
08:44And when it comes to China, is that also pushing these changes?
08:46You know, there's a lot of criticism around concerning fragmentation and the change in the geopolitics. But if anything, it
08:53has certainly led the Europeans to look at their own forces, to look at their own weaknesses and try to
08:59address them.
08:59So I think that rather than criticizing the rest of the world or putting the blame on one or the
09:05other leaders, I think we have to really focus on us, see what strength we have.
09:09And we have a lot of those leverage them and try to address the weaknesses. I think there are some
09:15low hanging fruit.
09:17The capital market is one that is not such an easy one, but there are components that are low hanging
09:22fruits. And I'm delighted to see that both the Commission and the Irish presidency want to move further and faster
09:28on this front.
09:29And we've seen that this week with the digital euro. I have and I have to ask you may seem
09:34a trivial question, but what is the digital euro? Because on this stance in Brussels, I've heard any piece who
09:40say this is a way to kill cash.
09:43And the head of the European Central Bank wants to control our every move. Oh, my gosh, digital year.
09:48Absolutely not. Let me first, you know, celebrate the fact that the parliament has endorsed massively the mandate for this
09:56tree log discussion that will take place.
09:58And hopefully will be concluded by December. But let me go back to that. This piece of legislation will actually
10:06produce two results.
10:07The first one is that it will make cash and the digital euro both legal tender, which means that nowhere
10:17in Europe can anybody say to anyone, sorry, I'm not taking your banknotes.
10:22I'm not taking your European coins because now it has legal tender. It has to be honored. So cash is
10:29actually elevated to this legal tender level when nobody anywhere in Europe can say I'm not taking your money because
10:35it is banknotes.
10:36No. So banknotes are secured and protected. And by the way, before the end of this year, in December 26,
10:44we will have a set of proposals that will be the new design and the new face of our banknotes
10:50so that there is a close link between you, me and the banknotes.
10:54So that's on the banknotes. So no, cash will not go away. Cash will be rejuvenated. Digital euro. We need
11:01to move into a digital world. You book your trips using digital. You buy your transportation tickets using digital.
11:10You buy by digital means whether you do your grocery shopping or whether you buy your clothes. We need to
11:17have also central bank money. For the moment, it's only banknotes, but we need to have it in digital form.
11:23And if it is cheaper, if it is faster and if you can use it throughout Europe, even the better.
11:28And the overall question, however, is how is that going to serve the euro's competitiveness? Because there is a real
11:34competition now for who will be and who will run currencies in the future.
11:38Is it still a dollar story? Dollar is king. You also see the Chinese heavily pushing for their own currency.
11:44The best thing I know is a European solution. At the moment, we do not have that. So if you
11:50pay in most instances, 60% of the cases, you use payment infrastructure that is under foreign capital.
11:59So we depend on predominantly US, but also sometimes China networks to organize payments. We need to have a European
12:08solution because we want to be sovereign at home.
12:11So that's what the digital euro will do, because you will have digital euro for retail when you go to
12:16the shop, when you buy with a friend, when you want to share a bill.
12:19But we will also have what we call wholesale digital euro, which will enable the banks to organize a transaction
12:27in digital form as well.
12:29And some expected because of the major changes coming out of the US that we would see sort of move
12:34away from the dollar and that the euro could benefit from it.
12:36But the numbers a year later, they show minimal pick up and should have been somewhat argue a much stronger
12:42effect to cash in those inflows.
12:44Is this a root of concern that even with this uncertainty, the euro was not able to capitalize on it?
12:51Or would you say, look, this is a 20 year story. I can promise you in 20 years that share
12:55will be much higher.
12:56I would never promise anything because there is so much uncertainty and those those movements take time.
13:02What we have seen in history when the sterling pound, you know, was gradually replaced by the US dollar.
13:09It took that long, if not a bit more. So what I'm saying today is that the euro is a
13:15solid currency.
13:1625 years ago, soon 30 years ago, people were saying, ah, it's dead on arrival.
13:22It's not dead on arrival. It is solid and strong. Absolutely. Absolutely. So it is solid and strong.
13:27The European Central Bank is well established, credible and highly respected.
13:32The monetary union is a force, but it is not enough. We have to go beyond that.
13:38We have to be credible from a security point of view. We have to be solid from an economic point
13:43of view with lots of trade agreements.
13:45This is in process. And we have to make sure that our institutions are solid and that the rule of
13:51law is respected.
13:52But I would contend that the euro has remained stable and slightly increasing in terms of support and attractiveness.
14:00I hear a lot of noises along those lines. And to that extent, I do have to ask you going
14:06back to the question of China.
14:07There is a message that is legitimate, and that is Europeans are saying, what a fair deal.
14:12The numbers coming out of China, when you look at that trade deficit, it's a deficit after a deficit.
14:16They sell a lot more than we do to them. When you look at the trade surplus last year from
14:20the Chinese, it's another record.
14:22There's no indication that they are rebalancing in any way that is fair to Europeans.
14:26There's a deadline now in October. What happens if the Chinese do not respond to that deadline?
14:31The easy cop-out answer would be, it's not my business, it's the business of the trade commissioner.
14:35But I know you care about Europe.
14:37I care very much about Europe and I care very much about keeping an international trade system in place that
14:43is sensible
14:43and that is propitious to the exchanges between nations and between enterprises as well.
14:50So I think we need to have areas that we know are critically important and that we will not let
14:57sort of fade away to any competition, including China, of course.
15:02So you describe the message that a fair deal needs to happen. It's not a fair deal what we have
15:07at this point.
15:08It's a deal that is predominantly organized under WTO.
15:12You still have about 75% of trade conducted under WTO rules.
15:17But as far as China is concerned, there has to be a discussion of adults in the room who are
15:24respecting each other's position
15:26and who are going to make sure that it's a good deal on both sides.
15:30The Chinese are very good at talking about it. We actually need to walk the talk.
15:34And this is a cross.
15:35And see on a sectorial basis what it means. You know, see on a pricing basis what it means.
15:41See on a grants and subsidies basis what it means. And see on a financing basis what it means.
15:47And will you be monitoring that October deadline? Because some say the Europeans have put themselves in a difficult situation.
15:52If they do not respond, they're going to look weak.
15:54If they respond, there's a chance of have the bare minimum real trade tensions, potentially a trade war.
15:59You know, whenever there is a crisis, a deadline or something really hard, the Europeans are up to it.
16:04So I have full trust that this will happen.
16:06In October? At some point?
16:09Who am I to say that? I'm not in charge of trade negotiations.
16:11But I'm sure they will appreciate the urgency of the matter and the need to find a dialogue that is
16:18productive on both sides.
16:20And President, for Europeans, you've had to increase interest rates.
16:23You talked about some of the uncertainty facing the European economy.
16:27Just for the average European, they see that they're now operating in an environment where interest rates are much higher
16:32than they were used to just a few years ago.
16:35Is this the new normal?
16:36No, but look, I think what was not the norm was a time when interest rates were in negative territory.
16:43It was an anomaly.
16:46It's a total anomaly that if I lend you money that you will only give me back in five years.
16:51In addition to lending you money, I have to give you a bonus on it.
16:56This doesn't make any sense.
16:57I mean, everybody understands that if I lend you money, you only pay me back in five years.
17:02You have to give me a little top up, which is, you know, the term premium and the risk premium
17:07eventually.
17:08So interest rates go with the payment of money over time.
17:13And if you give money, if you lend money over time, obviously there is an interest.
17:17So I think we are more in normal time when you have an interest rate.
17:23Now, interest rates are determined with the objective that the central bank has, which is to provide price stability.
17:31If you don't have price stability, if you think that prices are going to go up or down, you just
17:35completely confuse as to what you should do, whether you should buy, whether you should sell, whether you should employ,
17:40whether you should find, whether you should invest.
17:42So what our mission is, is price stability. And for that, the big tool, especially when you have inflation rising
17:49its nose, is interest rates.
17:52So we slightly increased interest rates, which are now at 2.25%, when we have the latest reading of inflation
17:59at 2.8%.
18:01Not to say that we align with inflation, because our goal is medium term.
18:06We need to see inflation returning to 2% in about three years' time. And that's what we have with
18:12the projections that we produce.
18:15And on that level of interest rates, which is so key for European consumers, your message is to say, this
18:20is the level that we believe will be the base for the months to come, ultimately.
18:26You have to be okay with this. Understand that this is the level now. Potentially even go higher, depending on
18:33how things go.
18:33We do an assessment at each and every meeting. We meet roughly every six weeks. And we look at all
18:38the fundamentals. We look at the projections that we have.
18:42We look at the estimated inflation in three years, in two years, in one year's time. We look at the
18:48underlying inflation.
18:49What is it without oil and gas? What is it without food? What is it if you take out the
18:54most volatile things? What is it if you take out tobacco and all? We have multiple measurements.
18:59Then we also look at how this is propagated throughout the economy and what it produces, ultimately, in the medium
19:06term. And it's on the basis of all that that we say, we are fine, or we should go down
19:10a bit, or we should go up a bit.
19:12And, Madame Lagarde, I have to ask you, of course, about France. Just a final question. France is, Juncker used
19:18to say, it's not just any country. France is France. This is a founding member.
19:22And Jean-Claude is Jean-Claude.
19:23And he is, of course, he is. And he also used to say, look, this is a founding member of
19:28the European Union. It is systemically important when it comes to the Euro area.
19:32But beyond that, it's a country that represents a form of ideals to the world. It's a republic for its
19:37citizens. At this point, and this week, we've had now what seems to be now an idea of who will
19:44be able to run or not, in which conditions crystallize.
19:48Le Pen will be a candidate. And if I look at polls now, there is a real scenario in which
19:53the final ticket, the two final candidates, will represent extremes, certainly in the European Parliament.
19:59Jean-Luc Mélenchon is really on the left in the European Parliament. She is on the Patriots for Europe, a
20:04creature created by Viktor Orban to change Europe.
20:06When you look at that final ticket, and it is a possibility, do you say, yes, it is an existential
20:12threat to France, and therefore it is an existential threat to the stability of the European economy?
20:19You know, I try to look at all member states without diving deep into the politics of anyone. Of course,
20:27as a French, I have my own views. I keep them to myself.
20:30But what I very much hope is that the democratic process will continue. You know, in politics, the next, you
20:36know, eight months is eternity.
20:38So, so many things can happen. We will be monitoring. We will be looking at the risk level. We will
20:43be looking at all that carefully.
20:45And we hope that reason will always prevail and that France will appreciate, whoever is the leader for France, that
20:52it is one key member of Europe and that Europe is the only playground within which member states, nations, even
21:00France, can actually play a significant role.
21:03On the European voice, some would say that is the anomaly at this stage. There are many, many in Europe
21:08who feel proud of being Europeans.
21:10And no politician at this point seems to be able to tap really into that appetite for a political offer
21:16that really puts that upfront.
21:19Are you to find that bizarre that in France, no one is occupying that space? And some would argue, maybe
21:25you should occupy it.
21:26Well, I will certainly explain to the extent I can, you know, why the European dimension is so critical.
21:33In a campaign or in your role?
21:34I will explain that in whichever capacity I will be most efficient.
21:39It's all open for you at this point.
21:40I'm not a candidate for anything, but I'm very keen that Europe is protected, that Europe is the framework within
21:47which member states operate, including France.
21:50Well, President Lagarde, thank you so much for joining us on ERA News.
21:53Thank you very much.
21:54Thank you very much.
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