- 8 hours ago
Malaysia is ageing faster than ever—but are our families, communities, and laws keeping pace?
Should adult children be legally required to care for their ageing parents? Where do we draw the line between moral responsibility and legal obligation?
In the latest episode of the Life & The City podcast, hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab unpack the proposed Senior Citizens Bill with Malaysian Coalition on Ageing president Cheah Tuck Wing.
The trio explores why the Bill is being introduced and highlights the modern challenges older people face, from financial insecurity to inadequate support systems. They also debate whether adult children should have a legal duty to provide for their parents, while debunking common misconceptions surrounding the legislation. The Life & The City podcast series airs fortnightly, spotlighting issues that matter to urbanites.
Beyond family dynamics, the episode dives into the structural protections the Bill aims to provide, how it could improve seniors' quality of life, and why managing an ageing society requires far more than just new laws.
Catch the full episode on www.youtube.com/@thestaronline/podcasts or www.thestar.com.my/metro
Should adult children be legally required to care for their ageing parents? Where do we draw the line between moral responsibility and legal obligation?
In the latest episode of the Life & The City podcast, hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab unpack the proposed Senior Citizens Bill with Malaysian Coalition on Ageing president Cheah Tuck Wing.
The trio explores why the Bill is being introduced and highlights the modern challenges older people face, from financial insecurity to inadequate support systems. They also debate whether adult children should have a legal duty to provide for their parents, while debunking common misconceptions surrounding the legislation. The Life & The City podcast series airs fortnightly, spotlighting issues that matter to urbanites.
Beyond family dynamics, the episode dives into the structural protections the Bill aims to provide, how it could improve seniors' quality of life, and why managing an ageing society requires far more than just new laws.
Catch the full episode on www.youtube.com/@thestaronline/podcasts or www.thestar.com.my/metro
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NewsTranscript
00:03Aida, don't you find it sad that there are some senior citizens out there
00:08who have been abandoned by their adult children?
00:12Yes, I find it extremely sad because we have read the news about
00:19parents being abandoned in hospitals and in their homes.
00:23We see a lot of elderly just dying alone at home.
00:30And that is sad, but unfortunately, that is the society we are living in now.
00:41And on that cue, what are we talking about today?
00:45We've heard, I mean, we've read in the news about the government,
00:49my link, introducing the senior citizens bill.
00:54So I'm sure a lot of our listeners out there are curious about what this could mean moving forward.
00:59And we have a guest with you here today, and he's going to hopefully walk us through this bill
01:05and shed some light on the issue that we're talking about today.
01:09Yes, we have Mr. Chia Takwing, the Malaysian Coalition on Aging MCOA Chairman.
01:16Am I correct? Welcome to our podcast.
01:19May we address you as Mr. Chia or Takwing?
01:21Chair will do.
01:23Thank you for coming.
01:24Yes.
01:25Before we get into the nitty-gritty of aging, it's not fun.
01:32Aging is not fun at all.
01:33It depends on how you look at it, I guess.
01:35I suppose.
01:36When there are things that open up to us, you get older.
01:39Let's just tell a bit of background on this issue.
01:43Now, according to the Department of Statistics Malaysia, DOSM, people age 65 and above make up 8.1% of
01:52the population as of 2024.
01:55Now, this is expected to rise to 14.5% by 2040.
02:00And again, we have written so many uncountable stories about the silver community aging, Malaysia being an aging nation, and
02:13the sad part about children who don't want to take on the responsibility of caring for their parents.
02:26I have an elderly mom, and you still have your mom.
02:31I'm sorry, you still have both your parents.
02:33And I mean, can you imagine just abandoning them?
02:36I can't imagine doing that.
02:38Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine doing that.
02:41But I think what a lot of people are having questions about out there is that when we say care
02:47or responsibility to care for your parents, like, what does that entail?
02:51What does that mean?
02:52So, different people might have different interpretation of that word.
02:56So, that's what we are hoping to dissect today.
02:58Yeah.
02:59So, Chia, let's hear from you.
03:02What is the Malaysian Coalition on Aging?
03:06Okay.
03:07Firstly, thank you for having me today.
03:09I'll play.
03:10Yeah.
03:11The Malaysian Coalition on Aging actually started in 2022, just after the pandemic.
03:17The idea actually came from the United Nations Population Fund, or UNFPA.
03:26At the time, we were working closely with My Aging, UPM.
03:31They do a lot of research work on aging.
03:34So, UMFPA wanted the civil societies in Malaysia who are involved in aging to come together to advocate for the
03:42elderly.
03:42Because of the United Nations, talking about the ranks of people, including the elderly.
03:52This was way back in 1997, talking about SDG 1, no poverty.
03:58SDG 3, everybody should be accessible to healthcare, you know, SDG 8, you know, inclusivity, employment opportunity for all, you
04:09know.
04:09So, that's how it came about.
04:12And in fact, from what I know, when Badawi was the Prime Minister, he actually proposed a senior citizen bill.
04:20Even those days.
04:22Even those days, no.
04:24But unfortunately, it dragged on until today.
04:25Now, we are seriously looking into it.
04:28And so, Malaysian Coalition on Aging idea is actually to get as many as possible, not only civil societies, also
04:39the private sector and the public sector,
04:41to come together to advocate for the seniors, to look at problems and opportunities that we can work together.
04:48You know, so that was the MCOA.
04:51And I started one NGO in 2016 called the Third Age Media Association.
05:01And the idea of this association is actually also to advocate and also to encourage seniors to live healthily and
05:09actively after retirement.
05:12And we published a magazine called The Senior, which is available in selected bookstores.
05:20So, the idea is to promote aging, healthy and active, even productive aging after retirement through media.
05:29So, MCOA started because of UMFPA, you know, and we held our, just after the pandemic, we held a big
05:43event in Kale Tower.
05:45So, we have an election and I was leading the MCOA since then until today, you know.
05:51And I'm very glad to say that we have done a lot of work and we have been very impactful.
06:01And the ministry has noted our work and they have actually asked us to be their partner, all right, in
06:09advocating for the elderly.
06:11So, a lot of times when the government, through the Ministry of Women, Family and Community Development,
06:17when they want to do policy planning, they will request us for input.
06:23So, that is, I think we have done a lot.
06:27We advocate through many platforms, including podcasts like this, through the media, newspaper, through events like forums, conferences, you know.
06:40So, there are many ways we can actually advocate and the good thing is that the government is listening.
06:47That's good.
06:48Yep.
06:48Can you explain, you told me this before we started this episode, what is Third Age?
06:55What does Third Age mean?
06:57Okay, the word Third Age, from my understanding, is that it was first coined in France, all right,
07:03and they started what we so call the UST of Third Age.
07:06The UST of Third Age is not actually an academic university, but it's basically combined with short programs for seniors,
07:14those who have retired, two, three months program.
07:18E-respect, I mean, it could be covering many things like even ukulele, playing ukulele, singing, drawing, dancing, whatever that
07:27seniors may enjoy.
07:29Because when they are working, they got no time for, limited time for enjoyment.
07:34So, plenty of time after you retire, so they want the retirees to actually be active.
07:42As you know that it's not just physically active, but also mentally active.
07:47Because a person declines rapidly, yeah, if your mental health is bad.
07:53That's right.
07:53It's very, very important to keep yourself mentally healthy.
07:58Yeah.
07:58Not only physically, but mentally.
08:00Because that is the first, that's why we have problems with dementia and all this, because we are not engaged
08:06mentally.
08:07That's right.
08:07So, playing chess, piano, guitar, you know, all this require memory work.
08:12Correct.
08:13And you mentioned earlier, circle of life.
08:18Yes.
08:18Yes, circle.
08:19So, if you read some journals out there on ageing and the elderly, when they get to a certain age,
08:32right, they tend to disengage, which is dangerous.
08:36Yes.
08:36Right.
08:36That's why the social circle is very important.
08:39That's right.
08:40So, coming back to the Senior Citizens Bill, it aims to create a legal framework to protect the rights and
08:48welfare of older Malaysians.
08:50And as of June this year, the draft bill has been prepared, but the government is still conducting a stakeholder
08:57consultation, and it aims to table the bill in the next parliament sitting once engagements are complete.
09:06Right.
09:06So, why do you think, Chia, why do you think Malaysia needs this law now?
09:12Personally, I think the law is needed.
09:15I know there's a lot of objection over this law.
09:17What is that?
09:18It's quite controversial.
09:21Because, for example, white people are against the law, all right, they are adult children who were abused before by
09:30their parents.
09:31Yeah.
09:31So, they feel that, hey, why should I now be caring for my parents who were not caring for me
09:37earlier?
09:37Mm-hmm.
09:38You know, they were abusing not only, I mean, the father, let's say, for example, the father, not only abused
09:43the mother, but the children as well.
09:46You know?
09:47And they just abandoned the children and the mother, just like that, and then went.
09:50In fact, personally, I just met up with one person a few months ago.
09:56You know, this guy is in his 50s, and he told me a story.
10:01He just said, hey, you know, I was abandoned.
10:05You know, my mom and my siblings are all abandoned by my father.
10:09He went to U.S. to work and didn't give any sustenance to us.
10:15You know?
10:16And the mother actually brought up the children.
10:19And in fact, I heard the mother was abused herself.
10:23You know?
10:23Was slapped and all those, you know, abused.
10:26So, later on, he just came back two years ago or one year ago.
10:31You know?
10:32And suffering from health issues.
10:34Mm-hmm.
10:35And went back to look for the family.
10:38But the family does not want to accept him.
10:40Wow.
10:41You know?
10:42And the son, who I was talking to, showed me a picture of his father.
10:47You see, he couldn't find help from the family,
10:50so he went to seek help from his other family members.
10:55You know?
10:56And his family members couldn't take care of him
10:58and put him into an old folks home.
11:01Right?
11:01In Karak, from what I heard.
11:03Right, Karak.
11:04I was shocked when the son showed me the picture of his father in a cage.
11:09Oh, my goodness.
11:10In a cage.
11:11Because he was suffering from Parkinson's or dementia or what,
11:17and he was wandering around outside of Oksong.
11:21You know?
11:22Wow.
11:22So, they got no choice.
11:24They have to keep him safe, so-called.
11:28But in a cage.
11:29I told the son, I say,
11:30Hey, this is your father, you know?
11:32Please don't treat him this way.
11:34You know?
11:34And you are the son.
11:35Despite whatever he has done,
11:37he is still your father, your biological father.
11:42And I'm very happy that he took him out later on.
11:45Oh, that's good to know.
11:47Yeah.
11:47And this is all actual things happening, you know, in our society today.
11:52Yeah, and, you know, we've heard of there's no-contact syndromes.
11:58No-contact where children are just not in touch with their parents and some siblings.
12:06Yeah.
12:07Yeah.
12:07I mean, that's why there's a lot of controversy over this bill, you know?
12:13People not only feel abused, they, I mean, in the sandwich generation,
12:17many cannot support parents because they also have to support their own children.
12:22Especially now, many couples are working and they don't have enough financial support to support both sides.
12:29Some can barely pay for their children's, you know, like when you have to put your children in daycare
12:36and that can be quite expensive and now you have, you added another cost.
12:41Yeah.
12:41So, I can see why that's, you know, that might be causing concern.
12:45Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:45Correct, correct.
12:47It is real.
12:48I mean, these are practical things we must look at.
12:51Yeah.
12:52It's good to have a law, you know, especially those who willfully neglect, abandon their parents.
12:59That's right, yeah.
12:59I agree.
13:00Yeah.
13:00So, it's good to have a law.
13:02Yeah.
13:02In fact, many countries, Singapore, India, Canada, part of US, you know, many countries have that law.
13:10So, it's not to really punish, all right, unless you are willfully neglecting your parents, you know.
13:18But, I mean, I will go through the details about the mediation process and all those, you know.
13:24I don't know whether you want to touch on it at this point, you know.
13:29So, I think that should be the right way, mediation first.
13:33So, maybe the Welfare Department or JKM can come in to assess the situation first before it goes to the
13:40tribunal or the court, you know.
13:42So, to assess what is the problem, actually, you know.
13:46Is it that they are unable to afford paying for the parents' sustenance, you know, because of their family situation?
13:55Or is it because they were abused before, you know.
13:58So, it has to be properly assessed.
14:00And then, maybe, you know, if it's really abused, then you will have to go to some tribunal or whatever
14:08to decide, you know.
14:09So, the first line is never punitive.
14:12The first line is to assess first.
14:14So, I believe this is what the ministry is going to take, you know.
14:18It's never punitive.
14:19That's why it caused a lot of concern to people.
14:22They thought immediately, oh, if I don't care for my parents, I will be punished.
14:27Yeah.
14:27You know.
14:28So, there's a lot of misconstrued, you know, over this thing.
14:34Mr. Che, what are the sort of problems that maybe the ministry is hoping to address with this?
14:41I mean, is it, are we looking at financial assistance?
14:43Are we looking at actual care and attention?
14:46Or are we hoping that the adult children will put their parents in the same house?
14:51Like, what is the ministry looking at?
14:53What sort of support are we looking at here?
14:55Actually, the Senior Citizen Bill, which is now known from what I know, is the Older Person's Bill.
15:03This one, I think I need to clarify.
15:05Because I actually checked with the ministry.
15:07And they say that they want to be in line with the United Nations definition.
15:13So, the bill should now be known as Older Person's Bill and not Senior Citizen Bill.
15:18But they haven't announced it yet.
15:20They haven't announced it yet.
15:21But they have been using this term already.
15:23The minister has been using Older Person's Bill already.
15:26So, I think they're going to take off this Senior Citizen Bill name.
15:31Why is that?
15:33Okay.
15:34Because the United Nations actually used the term Older Person.
15:38That's why on October the 1st, it's called the Oldest Person International Day.
15:43I see.
15:43So, they want to go in line with this.
15:45Alright.
15:46So, it's just a name, basically.
15:48So, actually, the Older Person's Bill or Senior Citizen Bill covers a lot of things.
15:54It's not just abuse, neglect and abandonment of seniors.
15:57It's actually covering the rights of elderly.
16:00The rights of elderly, which rights to affordable housing, rights to health care, access to health care, rights to long
16:10-life learning, rights to transport, good facilities, infrastructure, social support, rights to financial security, you know.
16:23So, it covers a wide range.
16:25But now, the focus is more on the elderly abuse and all of that because the cases are rising.
16:32Yep.
16:33You know, many, I think, especially after COVID-19, you find that 2022, 2023, the cases of people abandoning their
16:42parents in hospital increased drastically because of people having no jobs.
16:48Not only that, it was the pretext of sending their parents to hospital and then just leaving them there and
16:59not bringing them back home.
17:01Yes.
17:02Yeah.
17:02The worst thing is that they take away the ICs.
17:05The idea is it won't be traced back to the family.
17:10It's that bad, you know.
17:11Yeah.
17:12We work closely with Uncle Kentang.
17:15Have you heard of Uncle Kentang?
17:15Yes, of course.
17:16Mr. Kwan Ji Hing.
17:17Mr. Kwan Ji Hing.
17:17In fact, he just attended our forum on Saturday, last Saturday.
17:22And we work closely with him and he shared a lot of horror stories about abandonment of elderly.
17:28Yeah.
17:29They send their parents off somewhere and don't collect them because they want to go on holiday.
17:34There were cases of abandoning parents in cemetery.
17:37Really?
17:38Yeah.
17:38You just ask him, he will tell you the story, you know.
17:41Okay.
17:41He received calls from people, the public.
17:44He said, hey, there's elderly people in the cemetery.
17:49And he went to pick them up and then send them to some homes or what, you know.
17:53It is that sad, you know.
17:54And they don't have any identification with them.
17:57Simply because, like I said, they do not want any police or what checked.
18:02They cannot trace back to the family members.
18:04So, basically, they are just left to die there, whatever is it, you know.
18:09So, this is all real story.
18:12Without the ICU, these elderly cannot remember the contact numbers.
18:16Usually, these people have, I mean, they are already in serious health issues already, you know.
18:22So, they either don't remember things or whatever.
18:25Yes, yes, yes.
18:26No, they could be.
18:27So, these are cases where the family members find it a burden.
18:32They couldn't manage these elderly already.
18:34So, they just abandoned them, you know.
18:38So, these are actual things, you know, that is happening to our society now.
18:43Very sad to say.
18:44That leads me to wonder, I mean, what could have possibly driven these adult children to do that to their
18:51parents?
18:52I mean, is it really that difficult?
18:54Are times really that hard?
18:56You know, do they really lack the funds to be able to care for their parents?
19:00I mean, what are some of the factors, Mr. Shah?
19:02I think it's various factors.
19:04I mean, like I said, I mean, you know, the sandwich generations are facing a lot of pressure.
19:10The financial pressure of taking care of their children.
19:13And their elderly parents, this one, you know.
19:16Another one is that they are not able to take care because they don't have the expertise to take care.
19:21And with cases like dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, you know.
19:25Even NCDs are simple.
19:27NCDs like...
19:28Non-communicable diseases.
19:31You know, you are suffering from kidney failure.
19:34Yeah.
19:34You have to go for dialysis.
19:35Diabetes.
19:36Three times a week, you have to go for dialysis.
19:39Can you afford time to bring your parents or your mom or your dad?
19:43Your elderly, you know.
19:45To dialysis.
19:46Three times a week, you are working.
19:48You know, these are practical problems.
19:50Yeah.
19:50Family are facing.
19:52You know what I mean?
19:53So there are various kind of issues.
19:55Why?
19:56It's not that they want to abandon their parents.
19:58Some of them, you know.
19:59Majority, I think, love their parents.
20:01The circumstances.
20:01It's just forced.
20:02Yes.
20:03Correct.
20:03Correct.
20:05It's very sad.
20:06Because nowadays, the cost of living is so high.
20:08Yeah.
20:09You know.
20:09Everything is so expensive.
20:13And, you know, I mean, I'm sure you know about this, you know.
20:16Because we are also facing a lot of cost of living pressure.
20:21I think everyone is at this point.
20:23Yes.
20:23Be it, you know, people who are married and the single ones as well.
20:27Yes.
20:28That's why those who are willfully neglecting or abandoning their parents,
20:32these are the ones that the act should come full force on these people.
20:37Okay.
20:37So talking about that, whether adult children could have legal responsibility to care for their parents,
20:45what does the bill say about that?
20:47Definitely the bill says that children will have a legal obligation to their parents.
20:53All right.
20:54There's no doubt about that, you know.
20:56It's a matter of how you approach it, you know.
20:59Do you take the punitive approach or do you take the mediation approach first, you know.
21:05So I believe the government, I mean, will take the mediation approach first.
21:09Even if the law...
21:11Yes, the law is there.
21:13We need the law.
21:14Definitely we need the law, you know, especially for those willful, you know, abuse, neglect, and all those.
21:23That's why Singapore experienced, Singapore implemented the Parents Maintenance Act in 1995.
21:29So there's 20 over years learning that they have taken place.
21:33So we have learned, we should learn from them, you know, and not repeat mistakes that...
21:39Because in the early days in 1995, when they first implemented the law, they were using the law, the legal
21:45approach, you know, to punish, you know.
21:49So what happened was that initially the cases were high.
21:53Subsequently, they realized that we should not be taking the legal approach.
21:57Because there are many cases, majority of the cases actually is that children love their parents.
22:03It's just out of circumstances that they have to, you know, not to say what, I mean, they have to
22:12let the parents stay somewhere or whatever, you know.
22:16So majority love their parents, and as a result, mediation is the best approach to understand the problem, to try
22:23to resolve the problem, and not go to court.
22:26Because court will actually, I mean, create a lot of disunity in the family.
22:31It could be counterproductive, because now the children you are asking to care for these parents will now have to,
22:36you know, in worst case scenario, go to jail.
22:38Correct.
22:39If that happens, who will care for their parents?
22:41Yeah, and what you said earlier, what you said earlier about abuse, adult children are not willing to care for
22:50their parents because they were abused.
22:52Now, abuse comes in various forms.
22:54It doesn't have to be physical.
22:55Often times, the elderly parents can be really psychologically disturbed, and it's very difficult to deal with that.
23:08So I think there comes a breaking point where the children say, I can't do this anymore.
23:15How am I going to take care of my verbally abusive parent?
23:22That's why, I mean, we don't have the expertise to handle our parents who may be having serious dementia problems.
23:31They can be violent.
23:33Yeah, that is true.
23:34You can't even, some of us are not even trained to carry an elderly from the bed to a chair.
23:43I don't know how to do it.
23:44There is a way to do it.
23:46So simple things like this, I think the government is now doing a lot of things.
23:50From what I heard, the ministry is now training 2,000 caregivers, both from institution and from the home, to
23:59train people at least basic caregiving.
24:02And I think they are focusing on institutional care and home care, which I think is a very good thing.
24:09I mean, it involves everyone.
24:12It's a whole-of-nation approach.
24:13You know, everyone should be, should know at least basic caregiving.
24:17The basic, yeah.
24:18For example, if you're lifting an elderly person, your mum or dad, off the bed, there is a way to
24:24lift them so you don't break your back.
24:26Correct.
24:26Yes, there is a way.
24:27Yeah.
24:27And I agree.
24:29All this is very important for home care especially.
24:32And how you handle bed sores and all that.
24:34So you must know the basics.
24:35So I think the government is doing a lot of good things and especially under the minister, who might be
24:43Nancy Sukri.
24:45She's a wonderful person and I work with her closely and she does a lot of good works for the
24:52seniors today.
24:52And I just want to say that abuse also happens quite rampantly in old folks' homes.
25:01Yes, it's yes.
25:02Institutional abuse, all right?
25:05I mean, home abuse, okay, there are some.
25:07But I think institutional abuse is more rampant.
25:11Just last week only, I heard that there was somebody abused and she stayed in Sungai Petani.
25:19Right?
25:19I saw some pictures, wow, this is terrible.
25:22Yes, yes, I think I came across that, yeah.
25:25So this is more serious.
25:28So we have to address both home abuse and institutional abuse.
25:35Right.
25:35What other protections or support could senior citizens expect should this bill be passed?
25:42Like I said, the bill is actually wide and encompassing.
25:46It's not just about abuse, neglect and abandonment, you know.
25:50It's about giving rights to seniors for lifelong learning, for proper social infrastructure, access to health care, you know, to
26:01financial security, you know.
26:03So there are many things that need to be addressed.
26:06And the senior citizen bill is one that's very comprehensive to address all these issues, no?
26:11So that's why EPF is now allowing people to take off the part of their money under ISAJATRA, I think,
26:20you know, to pay for the MHIT.
26:24Now the government is going to roll out the, what they call the medical health insurance, TACAFOLA, early next year
26:32with a pilot in July this year.
26:34So they need some funds to pay for private health care, you know.
26:42So MHIT is a collaboration between the Ministry of Finance, Bank Negara, and this, what do you call it, the
26:53Ministry of, one more, I mean three, three of them came out, Bank Negara, you know, came out with this
26:59program.
27:00Because as you know, insurance premium has escalated in the past three years, very high.
27:07So many seniors, retirees have given up their insurance policy.
27:12So as you can see now, the public health care system is almost collapsing because everyone is queuing up in
27:18the public hospitals and clinics going for treatment.
27:24So we need to sort of, you know, get these people to have a private health care insurance so that
27:31they can actually utilize their insurance.
27:35Yep.
27:36Mr. Chair, I mean, just to play devil's advocate here, there are some people that say, you know, you can't
27:42legislate filial piety.
27:43You know, this is a very, a deeply intimate bond between a parent and a child.
27:49And for the government to come in, it could be seen as being, you know, trying to be a, what
27:55do we call, nanny state, trying to legislate something that's so deeply intimate.
28:00Where do you stand on that?
28:02Yes, I mean, I've said it's true.
28:06There's many against the law that, I mean, it's, you have a law, but you cannot actually buy love.
28:18You know, filial piety is actually out of your gratitude to your parents.
28:23Yeah.
28:23And it's, and it's mostly an Asian thing.
28:26Yes.
28:26It's Asian values.
28:28Yeah.
28:28That we should bring back.
28:29Human values, in fact.
28:31Yeah, my days, you know, we have many children, and the children will take care of us when we grow
28:37old.
28:37You know, those days, you know, those days.
28:39But nowadays, it's a very different story, you know, because of the cost of living and stuff like that, you
28:45know.
28:45And people are, seems to be a very materialistic, you know, pursuing wealth and not so much of human values,
28:52you know.
28:53So things have changed a lot since those days, you know.
28:56So we have to bring back those values.
29:00And, yes, you can have a law to punish, but you cannot have a law to make sure that the
29:06children visit their parents or, you know, to buy them a lunch, to meet them, to call them, you know.
29:14You cannot have a law to do that.
29:16You know, yes, you can make them pay for failing to do that.
29:19You can make them pay, use the law.
29:21But what's the point?
29:22It's only a short-term relief only.
29:24It doesn't work on the long term.
29:26You see, elderly, what they want is spending some time with them.
29:32You know, have a...
29:33So that's why when our Deputy Prime Minister Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, yeah, mentioned about the Parents Care Act, right, which
29:47is the equivalent of Singapore Parents Maintainance Act,
29:53that come up with a law to punish if you don't care for your parents, right?
29:58I, my first reaction was that I'm very, very sad.
30:03It's not that I'm happy about the bill.
30:05I'm very, very sad because, I mean, to make society, to come up with a law, to ensure society care
30:16for the parents is very tragic.
30:19Yes, in a way.
30:20I agree.
30:20It is very tragic, you know.
30:22So, we must love our parents out of gratitude because, you know, when we were young, we were helpless, you
30:29know.
30:30They brought us up.
30:32I mean, pay us for our education, brought us up.
30:36And, when they grow old themselves, you know, we don't even have time to meet them, you know, have breakfast
30:44with them, you know, and even abandon them.
30:49You know, I mean, society has deteriorated to such a level.
30:52Yeah.
30:53The fact that we even have this discussion today, you know, paints a not so rosy picture.
31:00Yeah, I mean, we will eventually be judged as a nation on how we treat our parents, you know.
31:07The country will be judged by how we treat our parents, you know, and, you know, and a successful nation
31:14don't need a law.
31:16Which is true.
31:17But, let's say, what if someone genuinely cannot afford to support their parents, financially support, or, as we mentioned earlier,
31:31the difficulty, complexities in their relationship?
31:35How should the law deal with a situation like that, do you think?
31:39Yeah.
31:39I think the law would have provisions for this, you know, protection for those who have abused before.
31:45So, and even the government maybe have to come in to provide for the financial security for all those elderly
31:52who do not, I mean, you know, they were not, I mean, their children are not caring for them financially.
32:02So, looks like the government has to come in, you know, you know, I mean, what else can you do?
32:06You know, is that right?
32:07Yeah.
32:08So, I mean, that's the only way to go about this.
32:11To be honest, I myself have a lot of questions about this bill, you know, as a young person.
32:18I mean, I'm not abandoning my mom just so that if she's watching this, just so not, we're still going
32:22to go for our daily brisk walk in Putrajaya, so don't worry about that.
32:26So, actually, my questions are this, you know, number one, people are saying that it might widen the gap between
32:32the financially well-off and the not so financially well-off.
32:35Because the kind of senior citizens who will need care are likely going to be from the B40, not from
32:42the T20.
32:43And their children are likely going to be from that segment as well.
32:46So, they are the ones who are probably going to have to be the one doing the caring the most.
32:50Because, like, the Tan Sri and the Datuk Sri probably have enough in their savings to care for themselves.
32:56So, people are arguing on social media.
32:58I've read all these comments.
32:59People are saying that it might disproportionately affect the B40 more than it does the T20 or the M40.
33:07That's number one.
33:09Number two is that they're saying that...
33:15It didn't occur to me, but there's another thing that they're saying, you know.
33:22Because they are...
33:23I mean, what if they're genuinely poor?
33:25I mean, maybe they're genuinely B40.
33:28You know, they live in a small home.
33:30They can't care for their parents, you know.
33:33So, I think, like, this is something that the law needs to make clear.
33:36So, is it intentional or is it unintentional?
33:39So, that is something that I think needs to be taken into account.
33:43And also, abuse on the point of abuse, right?
33:46I mean, a child can say, well, my parents were abusive when I was growing up.
33:51But the law might require that child to provide proof that he was abused.
33:56But then, how would you be able to provide that proof?
33:59Because at the point when that abuse happened, you were not in a position to document that abuse.
34:05So, how would you prove that?
34:06So, the law could be seen as being against them in that manner.
34:10So, I feel like, I'm not against the bill, but I feel like these are some of the things that
34:15the government needs to look into.
34:17Yeah, it's going to be a complex matter.
34:20It's not just, okay, we have this bill, now you have to follow the rules.
34:23But, yeah, there's a lot of nuance that will go into it.
34:26What do you think?
34:27Yeah, I think this is also one of the reasons why the ministry is now doing a survey, you know,
34:34to get more feedback from the public, you know, especially.
34:39And, definitely, to me, I believe, until it's played out now, we do not know the details, you know.
34:45I'm just speculating on my part.
34:48We are.
34:49You know, the provisions will be there.
34:51I believe the provisions will be there for all those who, you know, who can't afford to pay for the
34:56bills for the parents
34:58and also for those who were abused before, you know.
35:02Because, I mean, cases of abuse by their parents before, I believe it will have to be decided by the
35:09court,
35:09in terms of evidence to be given and all this stuff, you know.
35:12I mean, I cannot speak on this part, you know.
35:15I do not know how it's going to be played out.
35:17But, I believe the law is fair, you know, justice will be served.
35:23Yeah.
35:23That's all I can say.
35:24I mean, the whole point of the conversation is to raise issues for our listeners
35:29and hopefully for the stakeholders who are watching this to address the concerns.
35:33Whatever is it, I think the bill is still needed.
35:35We still need the bill now.
35:37It has been outstanding for some time already, many, many years already.
35:41So, we need to really push this out.
35:44Yeah.
35:44Because it's covering the other parts of the welfare and well-being of the elderly, you know,
35:49which we cannot afford to wait, you know.
35:51That's right.
35:51What are the differences that you can see in the everyday lives of senior citizens if this bill is passed?
36:03Like I said, one thing is that care centres and all those, for example,
36:09needs to really, what do you call it, tidy their work.
36:15Because right now, a lot of care centres, like all folks home and all those, are not regulated.
36:20That's right.
36:20Because they are not licensed at all.
36:22And one of the reasons is for that, correct?
36:27One of the reasons for that is a tedious process of going through all the, getting the licences and some
36:37of them feel it's just a monumental task of getting everything in order with the government agency.
36:49You know, it's just a dicey situation.
36:54So, a lot of them are operating without a licence.
36:56Yeah.
36:57You see, the operators themselves are saying that the government agencies are not facilitating them to register or to get
37:08their licence.
37:10They have to comply with Kobamba, they have to provide with the Ministry of Health regulations, they have to provide
37:17with the Welfare Department regulations, you know.
37:19And every state, sometimes the law differs.
37:22Yeah.
37:22So, that's why they're facing a lot of issues, you know.
37:26And one of the big issues is also getting caregivers.
37:29They couldn't get caregivers, you know.
37:31And the government do not allow foreigners to be used as caregivers, you know, do not recognise, in fact, the
37:39profession of caregivers, you know.
37:41So, it is a serious problem, you know.
37:44And as we age, and if we don't have this in place, it will be, you know, our country will
37:50face a lot of critical issues, you know.
37:53So, I'm glad that now the government is looking into these long-term care problems and all those, you know.
38:00And I believe they are doing something about it, you know.
38:05And, yeah.
38:07So, care, care, care, I mean, like even the nursing cares, under the PAPAS, which is the Private Healthcare Facilities
38:19and Services Act, you know.
38:20It has been gazetic for implementation since 19, sorry, since 2018, you know.
38:29But until today, it has not been enforced.
38:33Because if we enforce that PAPAS, then many of this has to be registered, especially nursing homes, you know.
38:41Because nursing homes, private hospitals are all registered under PAPAS, and they have to comply strictly by their rules, you
38:48know.
38:49Whereas the other, which is the, I think, Act 586, you know.
38:53The other Act is, which is the 506, which is under the care centers, which are all registered under JKM,
39:01which is the Welfare Department, you know.
39:03So, many, only about 400, only about, are registered with JKM.
39:09And 19 private nursing care homes under PAPAS, you know.
39:15So, eventually, I believe many of this will have to go to PAPAS, you know.
39:20JKM will then pass it to the Ministry of Health to regulate.
39:25And, we first, I think the first, most important thing is get these people regulated, so that we can monitor
39:31their, you know.
39:32Because a lot of abuse is happening there.
39:35So, if they are not registered, the Ministry doesn't even know where are they.
39:39How many of them are there out there, you know.
39:41Nobody knows this.
39:42So many operators out there, you know.
39:44Yeah.
39:45So, that's why the senior citizen bill has to be implemented, you know.
39:49So, that way, all this has to be, you know, controlled and monitored, you know.
39:54What are some of, I mean, we want to talk about how society can change to manage the situation, right.
40:04Is passing this bill enough, though?
40:09What are some changes that we, as a nation, can do to better manage the aging society?
40:16Yeah.
40:17I mean, law is one thing, right.
40:18Having the CSM bill is one thing.
40:20But more important thing is education.
40:22We got to start with education, educating children when they are young, especially at home.
40:29Because children see their parents, how they treat their grandfather, grandmother.
40:35Yeah.
40:35From there, they learn.
40:37So, that's why it's very important that education must always start at home.
40:43Don't leave it to their teachers in schools and all those, you know.
40:47So, everything starts from home, you know.
40:49It's very important that we have to bring back these values, you know, the Asian values, back to our society,
40:55you know.
40:56Which is very much lacking nowadays, you know.
40:59So, education and all this has to go together with the law.
41:03You know, never separately, you know.
41:06It has to, the children see and they do.
41:09The children see and they do.
41:11So, they have to inculcate gratitude, a sense of gratitude to their parents for bringing them out.
41:16Yeah.
41:17So, once you have that great sense of gratitude, it's very unlikely you will neglect or abandon your parents.
41:22Correct?
41:23Correct.
41:24Correct.
41:25Yeah, that's true.
41:27Yeah.
41:28What is the one message you like Malaysians to remember when it comes to caring for our elderly?
41:33Correct.
41:33So, I want to end with a story, if I may do.
41:36If I may.
41:38Alright.
41:38I got to know of this story when I was attending an event.
41:43So, it's a Nepalese children's story.
41:47Alright.
41:49And this story has something to do with the bamboo woven basket that is used by Nepalese to carry heavy
41:56things.
41:57It's called DOKO.
41:59D-O-K-O.
42:00I know why you call it DOKO or something else.
42:02It's called DOKO.
42:04So, what happened is this, according to this story, is about philopaitia.
42:09So, what happened is that there was this man, a family, you know, family man.
42:14And his father is old and, you know, cannot be able to help him on many things and a lot
42:23of health problems and all those, you know.
42:25So, he find that his father is a burden.
42:29So, decided to do away with him.
42:33Now, so, what happened is that he brought this DOKO, alright, this bamboo woven basket, which in Nepalese always carry
42:42heavy things around.
42:44So, and together with his young son, went through the forest and then up a cliff, you know.
42:52The story was that he was going to push the father off the cliff.
42:59Oh, dear.
43:01And then the son started crying.
43:03So, the father asked the son, why are you crying?
43:07You know, the, I mean, the father was like, you know, because health issues and also didn't say anything or
43:12do it.
43:13He said, I cry because you don't, you know, it's not that you are pushing your grandfather away or whatever.
43:24But, you know, don't, don't, don't, don't lose the basket.
43:31You keep the basket.
43:33So, then the father was struck, you know.
43:35He said, hey.
43:37You know, he feels so guilty, you know.
43:40The son is telling him, you keep the basket so that in future I'm going to use it on you.
43:48You know, so he said, don't throw the father with the basket into the cliff.
43:53You keep the basket.
43:55So, the guy feels so very guilty and then he decided to bring his father back home.
44:01And this is a lesson about, you know, what you sow, your rib, what you sow.
44:06You know, always remember you got to train children to love your parents from the young, from young, you know.
44:12Is this a story available on YouTube?
44:16Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
44:18We can watch.
44:19You just.
44:20These are physical short stories you can watch on YouTube, yeah.
44:24Yes, yes.
44:26If you Google Doko and Napoli's story about Philopaiti, on Doko you can get the story.
44:34Yeah, we'll watch that.
44:36So, at the end of the day, it's all about gratitude, learning to love, you know.
44:43Law cannot buy love.
44:44You cannot legalize love.
44:46Correct.
44:46We all need it.
44:47We all want to be cared for and loved by each other, right?
44:50Correct.
44:51Yes.
44:52Well, this has been insightful.
44:55Thank you very much.
44:56Thank you very much for being our guest today.
44:59Thank you to our listeners.
45:02Again, feel free to watch out for this episode soon on our platforms, which is at The Star Online and
45:11www.thestar.com.my.
45:14slash metro.
45:15Yeah, go home and help your parents.
45:17Yes.
45:18Call your mother.
45:19Call your father.
45:20Okay.
45:21Thanks, sister.
45:30You
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