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08:48I suppose the other thing I think about
08:50when I hear the word masculine
08:52would be the way that masculine
08:53This all started because I said you sounded like a granny
08:55What?
08:58This all started because I said you sounded like a granny
09:01and now you're just going on about masculine stuff
09:04Yes
09:05The first time you came you had actual questions
09:08Is this right Jamie?
09:09Do you know whether this is wrong Jamie?
09:11Now you're just trying shit
09:13I hope I'm not
09:14Well you are because the first time you're all
09:16if an adult guinea pig eats one of its kids
09:19is that normal or weird
09:20and now you're what do you call bread?
09:22Come on
09:22It just feels like a trick
09:24Trick?
09:25Trick into what?
09:27My dad's okay
09:30Alright?
09:32Okay
09:32I know
09:34Just talking about you
09:36There isn't a need
09:40Fine
09:41If that's how you feel
09:42But I'm not trying to trick you
09:47Now I've pissed you off
09:49No
09:53Can I see your notes?
09:55What you've got written down about me?
09:56Do you see me writing anything down?
09:57You must write stuff down
09:58Yes
09:59Can I see what you wrote?
10:01What you've written?
10:03Of course you can't
10:05Well Dylan and the other lawyers say you work for us
10:07That's not what they say Jamie
10:08And I know that because I asked them the last time you said that to me
10:11You talked to them?
10:14I've explained this
10:14I've been employed by your team
10:16But I don't work for you
10:17What did he tell them?
10:17I'm writing an independent
10:18That's a very important word
10:19What did he say to you?
10:20An independent pre-sentence offence report
10:24Which the judge will read
10:25In order to get an understanding of you
10:26And your understanding of the charges
10:28Okay?
10:31All I want to do is talk to you Jamie
10:34And have you talk to me
10:38Yes
10:38I've asked some straightforward questions
10:40But I think
10:41Am I boring you?
10:43No
10:43Okay
10:49I think you
10:51And everyone else for that matter
10:52Are far more complex
10:53Than straightforward questions allow for
10:56We had a good conversation last time
10:58Could we try that again?
11:00And what did we talk about last time?
11:01We spoke about your friends
11:02Your sister, your mum
11:04We went all over the place
11:04Can't remember saying anything about them
11:05Ah well you did
11:06And how you feel about them
11:08How well Lisa's doing
11:09What you think your mum thinks of you
11:10What and now you want to talk about my dad?
11:12Well I want to talk about lots of things
11:18I could tell you the questions
11:19That I wrote down to talk to you about today
11:21If that helps
11:23Alright
11:24Yeah
11:26Okay
11:27Well I wanted to talk about the fight you had
11:29I thought that was nothing
11:30I was interested why you got in a fight
11:32He hit me first
11:33Why?
11:35Because we've had beef over stuff
11:38It doesn't matter it wasn't a proper fight
11:40You're telling me it's not that interesting?
11:42It's not
11:42Okay let's move on
11:44Well I'm in charge
11:45No am I
11:46Maybe
11:50I also wrote down that I wanted to talk to you about what being a man feels like
11:55You want to cook them balls do you?
11:59I'm interested in what being a man feels like
12:01For you
12:03Why is that?
12:04It's too big a question
12:06It's too big a question right
12:07And the fight's too small a question
12:09Which is why it's more useful for me to see where the conversation goes and steer it a bit
12:14Into what you think of your dad and your granddad for instance
12:17The type of men you think they are
12:18Rather than saying
12:20So Jamie what do you think being a man feels like?
12:25So Jamie what do you think being a man feels like?
12:27It's not a trick
12:31It's just a conversation
12:37So do you think it would be okay if we speak about your dad a bit?
12:43Can I just see your notes
12:45What you wrote
12:45How you wrote it
12:46Nope
12:48You're not that in charge
12:52Does your dad like his job?
12:55He fixes toilets
12:56What do you think?
12:58He works hard
12:59Long hours
13:01You get the best money for emergency warming out of hours you know
13:03Is he funny?
13:05Sometimes
13:06Loving?
13:07No that's weird
13:08Angry?
13:10Suppose
13:11How angry does he get?
13:13He's never hit me
13:14Okay
13:15Go on
13:16Go on what?
13:18Is that what this is all about?
13:20Well why do you call him angry?
13:21He just gets mad
13:23We all do
13:24Okay
13:24That's okay
13:25He's just angry in a normal way
13:29Well
13:29He
13:31He's pulled the shed down once
13:32When he was in a proper rager
13:34But
13:36That's as bad as it gets
13:37Were you frightened?
13:40No I
13:41I thought it was quite funny at the time
13:44Lisa did too
13:45Then
13:45Mum sent us upstairs
13:49He's not like that most of the time
13:52Hardly ever
13:54What does he do when he's not working?
13:58It just feels like you're testing him
13:59No I'm just interested in your view of him
14:03He's a big presence in your life
14:04He was your appropriate adult
14:06Yeah cause
14:07He doesn't judge
14:09He's a kind person
14:11That's good to know
14:14So what does he do when he's not working?
14:18He basically likes all sport
14:21My mum always said if you watch lawn bowls he'd make it fun
14:24Would you watch lawn bowls with him?
14:27No it's not for me
14:30You're not into sport?
14:31No
14:32None of it?
14:35Yeah I'm not good at much but
14:37I'm really good at getting out of PE
14:39How do you do that then?
14:43Headaches
14:44Hurt my leg
14:46Funny tummy
14:47So I feel dizzy can I sit down
14:49That sort of thing
14:50What does your dad make of that?
14:54He um
14:55He didn't
14:57He doesn't know
15:00He knew I wasn't
15:02Sporty or anything like that
15:07I used to
15:09He used to take me to football
15:11This
15:14This football thing
15:15On Saturdays
15:18And he'd um
15:23He'd tear me on
15:24And everything
15:25But
15:29But when I'd fuck up
15:31He'd just
15:47He'd just look away
15:51Pretend he didn't see
15:56Maybe or
16:00Maybe he just didn't want me
16:01To see him looking
16:04Sorry
16:06Sorry
16:08I don't know
16:11Ashamed
16:16How did you feel
16:17When you saw that shame?
16:21You're supposed to say he wasn't
16:22Am I?
16:24Yeah
16:25He's supposed to say
16:26Oh but he wasn't ashamed
16:28But he just thought that Jamie
16:29Oh but he's not what you really think
16:31He wouldn't be ashamed
16:32Not of his kid
16:33Have other people said that to you?
16:35It's just the right thing to say
16:37Isn't it lying?
16:38No
16:40I don't know
16:41I don't like lying
16:51I wasn't in the school sports either
16:56You were
16:56You were
16:57You were good at other stuff though
16:58Weren't you?
16:59Why do you think that?
17:02You looked like you were
17:03And you're
17:04And you're clever so
17:06Well did you not think
17:07You were very good at anything else?
17:10No
17:11I didn't care
17:12I wasn't
17:14It must be hard
17:15To feel that way
17:16No
17:18I think most people
17:19Think like that
17:21Most people think
17:21Do you think they're bad at everything?
17:23Most people are
17:25Does your sister feel like that?
17:27No
17:29Lisa's clever
17:30Your dad?
17:33I don't know
17:35My mum does though
17:37Your mum thinks she's bad at everything?
17:40She can cook or roast but
17:43I mean you'd have to ask her
17:46Have you met them yet?
17:47Your family?
17:48And you?
17:49I've spoken to your dad on the phone
17:51And you are?
17:53Yes
17:53As part of my assessment
17:54How is he?
17:55He's okay
17:55It's sad you're here
17:57I can't say more than that
18:05It's wrong
18:07That I'm in here
18:12Can I ask you a question?
18:14Of course you can
18:17Can you get me out of this place?
18:19I'm afraid I'm of no use to you there
18:21Why couldn't they put me in a proper prison?
18:23A better facility wasn't available
18:25Or put me in a madhouse
18:26It's a secure training centre
18:27Training?
18:29What are you training us for?
18:31The other boys just scream all the time
18:32I thought this had been explained to you
18:33And the rock rock was in forwards
18:34And the shower at Coronation Street
18:35All the way from Corrie
18:37Corrie goes nuts every time you see Steve McDonald
18:40It's mad in here, you don't understand
18:41This was the best place for you to be
18:43Ryan doesn't stay at home until his trial
18:44Ryan isn't accused of such a serious crime
18:46Accused
18:47It's all accused
18:49If I did it
18:50If I hurt her then I get it
18:51But I didn't so
18:52I understand it Jamie
18:53And this wasn't my decision
18:54This was the best place for you to be
18:56Nothing has been decided yet
18:57You know where it's going to be?
18:58London or St. Malocum?
19:00You need to sit down
19:01Jamie
19:01If you don't sit down
19:03Does that mean you don't know
19:04Does that mean you don't know
19:05What you just want to tell me?
19:05Nothing's been decided yet
19:06You need to sit down
19:07I don't want to sit down
19:08If you don't sit down
19:09Can I have to stop this discussion?
19:11Maybe I want you to
19:11Do you?
19:12It'd have pissed you off that wouldn't it?
19:14You'd have to go home and then come back again
19:15Jamie
19:16If you do not sit
19:17Look out
19:18I fucking want to sit down
19:20You do not tell me when to sit down
19:23You do not control what I fucking
19:25Look at me now
19:27You do not control what I do in my life
19:30Get that in that fucking little head of yours
19:34Fucking hell
19:35Is everything okay?
19:41There isn't a problem
19:44Jimmy
19:47I shouted
19:49I'm sorry
19:52Do you want him to take an art for a bit?
19:54No
19:54I'll get a cup of tea though
19:55If that's okay
19:58Can I have another hot chocolate please?
20:01Sure
20:02Well you don't have to
20:03Sure
20:27Okay
20:28Okay
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33:57I need you to sit down
34:29I need you to sit down
34:33Fuck off
34:37Fuck's sake
34:52Are you done?
35:02Fine
35:03I will fucking sit down
35:12Are you up here now?
35:17Hey?
35:22How are you going now?
35:25How are you going?
35:28Would you like me to?
35:30It's not to me, is it?
35:33If you want me to go, Jamie, I can go
35:56You said in one of our previous sessions that you had friends, Tommy and Ryan?
36:03But that you wouldn't consider yourself popular?
36:09Yeah
36:10You said you were bullied, the three of you were bullied
36:13People like you just love talking about bullying, don't you?
36:16You said Tommy was called Round Pounds because his mum did her shopping at Poundland
36:20Yeah, but she doesn't
36:21Yeah, but she doesn't
36:22And Ryan was called dumb
36:23Ryan is dumb
36:25That one was sort of true
36:26You said the three of you felt ostracised quite a lot
36:29Big words coming out now
36:29You said sometimes this would get physical
36:32People would spit on you from classroom windows
36:34You'd be tripped up and pushed
36:40Yeah
36:41You were called names and you were physically abused
36:43No, I was just tripped up in the spot
36:46My question, Jamie, is why do you have an Instagram account?
36:50What?
36:51I need one
36:52Why?
36:53To look at other people's accounts
36:56You can't if you haven't got one
36:58Right
36:59And you follow lots of women on Instagram, models
37:04Yeah
37:05You don't need to put photos up, though
37:07Why do you put photos up of yourself, I mean?
37:11I don't know
37:12Am I not allowed?
37:14Yeah
37:16Is it to prove those bullies wrong by showing the fun you have with Tommy and Ryan?
37:20No
37:21To show the fun you have with your family?
37:23There's no way I'm putting anything up with them
37:26Seeing anything like that is because my sister tagged me
37:28Because you think someone might like one of your photos
37:31You might get into a conversation, make a new friend, meet a girl
37:34What? No
37:35What you want about?
37:43Katie commented on your photos on a number of different occasions
37:47And yeah
37:54What?
37:55What are you doing?
38:03What's this?
38:04My chap
38:09She wrote this
38:11No
38:13Are you allowed to ask these questions?
38:15Has Dylan passed these questions, Faith?
38:17Yes
38:20He has
38:21I'm allowed to ask about intimacies, Jamie
38:24But if this makes you uncomfortable
38:26Or you have any questions
38:27There are people in this facility that can help you
38:30Okay?
38:37Katie wrote this on your Facebook feed
38:40Facebook?
38:43Instagram
38:45Are you alright?
38:48You look a bit red
38:49Did I scare you when I shouted?
38:53She wrote this on your Instagram
38:54You mean I'm only 13?
38:56I don't think I look that scary
39:03Could you tell me what these emojis mean?
39:05How embarrassing is that?
39:07Getting scared of a 13 year old
39:11Wow
39:13What do these emojis mean, Jamie?
39:20What do the kidney beans mean?
39:22They're kidney beans, right?
39:27She's pretending like I'm part of one of those truth groups
39:31What truth groups?
39:34The ones that say that
39:35Women don't want us
39:36We don't care
39:39Are you part of those?
39:40No
39:41But you know what they say
39:42Yeah, because
39:43Everyone kept on going on about
39:45With incel stuff
39:46So
39:47I had a look
39:48But I didn't like it
39:51And was you being an incel
39:53What she was saying with all of these?
39:57Yeah
39:58Could you explain them all?
40:20What's an 80-20 thing?
40:25What's an 80-20 thing?
40:29Where 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men
40:35I don't think they're right about that though
40:41And lots of people liked her comments quite a lot
40:46Yeah, they thought it was funny
40:49You must have found that quite cruel
40:54I suppose
40:55Did she do this to anyone else?
40:58No
40:58Why did she do it to you?
41:04Because...
41:04Because I'm ugly
41:06You think that's why she did it to you?
41:08I'm the ugliest I suppose
41:10So
41:12Did you ever call her on it?
41:14Yeah
41:14What did you say?
41:17I don't know
41:18I'm not what you say I am
41:20Or
41:20What did she say?
41:26She just
41:28She just smiled and said
41:29Okay
41:30And walked away
41:33And you never thought to tell anyone what she was doing
41:35It's a bit like that now, isn't it?
41:36It just must have hurt
41:38I didn't kill her
41:40You think it is because you've seen the video
41:42But you can't trust videos anymore
41:44It's all fake news
41:45I'm not here to judge
41:46I didn't kill her
41:48She was a bitch
41:49Even you can see that
41:50I should have killed her
41:51But I didn't
41:52I just
41:54All I did
41:59All I did was
42:06Look at you
42:07All hopeful
42:08Like when I say something important
42:15All I did
42:18I did
42:18I did ask her out
42:20After the photo
42:21I went round and said I was sorry that they'd done that to her
42:25Showing everyone her tits
42:26Her chest
42:27And I wanted to know if she'd come to the fair with me
42:31You know
42:33I just thought she might be weak
42:35And all that
42:36I just thought she might be weak
42:37So
42:40Because
42:41Everyone was calling her slag
42:43You know
42:44Or flat or whatever
42:45So I thought when she was like that weak
42:48She might
42:49She might like me
42:53It's clever don't you think
42:55To ask her out when everyone else didn't like her
42:58Well
42:59I went round and said I was sorry and everything
43:01That fidget was a wanker
43:03And I said I'd take her to the fair she liked
43:07Her weakness made her more gettable
43:09Was your theory
43:13Yeah
43:16I thought you said you didn't like her
43:20She's flat
43:20That's fact
43:21But I didn't mind that
43:22That's okay
43:25I wore my best tracksuit I can find
43:27And
43:30I don't even know I'm telling you all this
43:31But I just said you want to come up the fair
43:34And what did she say?
43:40She just
43:42She just laughed and said
43:44Oh I'm not that desperate
43:47And the emoji messages came after that?
43:51Yeah
43:52She was let's say attacking you for presuming you could ask her out
43:56It's your words
43:58Do you think they're unfair?
44:00You think she's a bitch
44:02Right?
44:03Doing all that
44:05You think she's a bullying bitch
44:10She was
44:11A bullying bitch
44:13Right?
44:13That's the thing
44:14You see
44:15That night
44:16I didn't touch her
44:19I could have touched her
44:20But I didn't
44:21I just
44:22I had a knife
44:23She was scared
44:24But I didn't do that
44:27I could have touched any part of her body
44:29I wanted to
44:29I really wanted to
44:30But I didn't
44:30I just
44:34Most boys would have touched her
44:40So that makes me better
44:46Don't you think?
44:53If I had to
45:24I didn't mean any of that. I'm just tired. I'm talking too much. I'm tired. I'm just...
45:30I'm so, so tired.
45:35I didn't kill her.
45:37Jamie, do you understand what death is?
45:39What?
45:40Do you understand what death is?
45:43Yeah.
45:44Do you understand that Katie's gone and she can't come back?
45:47I didn't do it.
45:48That whatever claims you make as to her character...
45:51I didn't mean she was a bitch.
45:51Whatever claims you make about her, she's gone.
45:55That whoever did kill her, they extinguished the possibility of her future life.
46:03I didn't mean to be mean about her. She just didn't like me.
46:06Jamie, listen. Do you understand?
46:10Yeah. I'm not dumb.
46:13Do you understand that murder is a crime?
46:15Yeah.
46:17Do you understand that if you're found guilty of that crime, you'll be held in detention?
46:20Who doesn't know that?
46:21Do you understand who will make the decision about that?
46:24Judge.
46:25Jory.
46:26Okay.
46:33Jamie, this is our last session.
46:36What?
46:37But what I would encourage you to do...
46:39Why?
46:39Whatever happens next is take advantage of any mental health services that are offered to you.
46:44I think you'll benefit from...
46:44No, no, I won't.
46:46Well, that's just what I think.
46:47And then you come back?
46:48You see me?
46:49Unfortunately, I'm needed elsewhere.
46:53What?
46:54It's just like fucking honesty.
46:55I hope you take what I said seriously.
46:57Thanks for your time.
46:58I'll ask Frank to come back in now.
46:59Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank and honesty.
47:02I'm grateful that you've spoken to me.
47:02You think I'm being honest?
47:04Are you going to tell the judge all that?
47:05I think you've spoken to me with honesty, yes.
47:07But all I'm advising the judge on is your understanding.
47:09My understanding, yes.
47:14It doesn't seem like a proper goodbye.
47:16It is.
47:16It doesn't seem like one.
47:18Yeah, that's enough.
47:18Come on.
47:19No, no, no.
47:19We haven't finished.
47:20We have, thank you.
47:21No, no.
47:22Can I ask you something?
47:24Yes.
47:29Do you like me?
47:42I was here as a professional, Jamie.
47:44Don't you think like that, then?
47:45My job was to assess me as a professional.
47:48Not like that.
47:49Not fancying you.
47:50Just as a person.
47:51Okay, so come on.
47:52Don't you even like me a bit?
47:53What did you think about me, then?
47:56Decide.
47:57Come on.
47:57This was really useful.
47:58Don't you go fucking telling me all that, didn't you?
48:00Hey, hey, hey.
48:01Don't you dare.
48:01Come on.
48:02Don't you go fucking hell the fuck out of me.
48:04Come on.
48:04Don't you dare.
48:06Hey, hey.
48:06Fuck.
48:07Don't you even like me a bit.
48:08Jamie, come on, man.
48:09Please.
48:10Okay?
48:10Jamie.
48:11What did you think about me, then?
48:12Okay, okay, okay.
48:13Tell him I got him all right.
48:15Tell him I got him all right.
48:18Tell him I got him all right.
48:19Jamie, calm down.
48:20Hey, hey.
48:22Tell him I'm okay, please.
48:24Oh.
48:54I got him all right.
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51:21Oh God
51:24Oh God
51:25Oh God
51:54Oh God
51:54Oh God
51:55Oh God
51:56Oh God
52:24Oh God
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