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'A Ghost Story' Director David Lowery on Directing Casey Affleck Under a Sheet and Adding That Kesha Cameo
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00:01Hi everyone, Ashley here from The Hollywood Reporter, and we're here with David Lowery, the writer and director of A
00:06Ghost Story.
00:08Congratulations on this movie.
00:09Thank you so much.
00:10So, it has Casey Affleck and Rooney Mara. For those who don't know, can you tell us about this very
00:15unique premise of the movie?
00:17Yeah, it's about a, well, Casey Affleck and Rooney Mara play a married couple living in Texas,
00:23and Casey's character dies in the first ten minutes of the movie, which is not a spoiler, that's just what
00:28happens.
00:29And spends the rest of the film haunting the house that he and Rooney lived in as a ghost.
00:35And the ghost in this film is represented by Casey with a sheet over his head, a classic Halloween costume
00:41style.
00:42And he haunts the house for several hundred years, and that's the gist of it.
00:46That's a pretty good sum up of what it is.
00:48Yeah, it didn't sound very dramatic there towards you, and it kind of tapered off, but that's the idea.
00:51So, you've worked with both of these actors from your 2013 movie, Ain't Them Bodies Saints, and did you write
00:57this movie for them?
00:58Was it always the idea to have them back in it?
01:00I didn't write it for them, but once the script was done and I knew that we were going to
01:04make it, I sent it to them right away.
01:05Because one of the key tenets of this film was that I wanted to only make it with friends.
01:11I wanted to be surrounded by friends throughout the entire experience and keep it very close and familial.
01:17And so, they were the first people I reached out to because we are friends now, and I was able
01:22to just text them and say,
01:24Hey, do you want to come make a weird movie in Texas this summer?
01:27How long did you have this idea floating around in your head? It's pretty unique.
01:31The image of the ghost, the sheet ghost, that's been something I've been wanting to employ for quite a few
01:39years at this point, and I just didn't have a movie to put them in.
01:42And then, sometime around last spring, I just kind of sat down and started writing this movie based on that
01:51image and some other stuff that was going on in my life.
01:54And, you know, the writing process was, you know, a week.
01:58A lot.
01:58It took about, you know, a day to write the first draft and then I polished it over the next
02:02few days and the script was only 30 pages because, as anyone who sees the movie knows, there's very little
02:06dialogue in it.
02:07And it came together so quickly that it's hard for me to trace back exactly what, you know, generated the
02:13idea other than that image and some of the personal connections I had to the material.
02:17Got it. So, like you said, Casey Affleck is under a sheet for most of the time.
02:22What is it about this image that you wanted to explore in a movie?
02:26I just like the, you know, it's a really, it's a strong image because it's something that we associate with
02:35childhood, with Halloween.
02:37There's a naivete to the image and a charming sort of handmade quality to it.
02:42And yet, at the same time, it still means, it represents a ghost and it represents a ghost as in
02:48someone who has died and cannot leave the earth for whatever reason.
02:52And so, there's so much meaning behind this very simple childhood image.
02:57And I love the idea of taking that image and, you know, adding, restoring some gravity to it, some gravitas
03:04and kind of exploring, you know, the ideas of ghostliness and what it means to haunt someone while utilizing what
03:13has become almost a universal representation of a ghost.
03:17You know, on Snapchat, that's like what the logo is.
03:21It's everywhere.
03:22When you show anyone across the world pretty much what that image, they'll understand that means a ghost.
03:27And so, it's got a very immediate, you know, it provokes a very immediate response, but you don't normally think
03:33about it in the context of a serious film.
03:35And I liked, you know, kind of playing with that.
03:37Yeah, definitely while I was watching it, at first, first of all, the first appearance of the ghost is wonderful.
03:43And then, it took me a while to feel the drama of it and, like you said, restore that.
03:49Yeah, I mean, it's a goofy image, it's funny, and it's okay to laugh at it, but then our goal,
03:54our hope was that if we play it just right and let audiences know that yes, it is okay to
03:59laugh, but then after a certain point, you start recognizing that this is a character in the movie, and you
04:05start feeling the pathos behind him and the simplicity of it.
04:10The sheer, like, you know, minimalism of this image starts to have a really sort of eerie effect that belies
04:17the, you know, goofy origins of it.
04:21So, just to confirm, it's definitely KCF, like, under the sheet the entire time?
04:25Oh, I mean, I'm not pretending that it's him the entire time.
04:28Like, that's, on a practical level, like, we had to do pickups and reshoots and he wasn't available.
04:32So, there are times where it's not him, but he did really want to wear it.
04:36You know, he came to town ready to put that sheet on and wear it for every single day of
04:40the shoot and did a wonderful job.
04:43I mean, it really is a testament to him and what he values in the, you know, the filmmaking process
04:49and what he values as an actor that he would be completely willing to subjugate himself to an experience like
04:53this where he doesn't have any of his usual tricks at his disposal.
04:58So, what is it like to direct someone who's under a sheet and making sure that emotion comes across?
05:06It's, it's very much like puppeteering and it's very mechanical.
05:09Okay.
05:09It's funny.
05:10We thought that we would have to, you know, we thought that initially this would be something where KC would
05:15get to use a lot of body language and really sell himself underneath the costume.
05:20But in our initial, you know, the first couple days of shooting when we were doing that, it just wasn't
05:25working.
05:25It felt too much like somebody wearing a sheet.
05:28Okay.
05:28And every sort of, you know, unique physical trait that he had as a human being was pronounced and exaggerated
05:34by this sheet draping over his head.
05:36So, you know, his walk felt very, you know, pronounced, you know, the way he kind of holds his head
05:42or slumps his shoulders.
05:43It gets very exaggerated when you put a sheet over someone's head and it just started to feel too real.
05:49It didn't have this ethereal quality.
05:51You know, we wanted, we wanted, in spite of the fact that this is a guy wearing a sheet over
05:55his head, we still want him to feel like a spirit, like a ghost.
05:58And so gradually we just had to iron out all of that performance, all of the normal, you know, actorly
06:05traits which an actor might use had to be removed.
06:08And it became a matter of patience and posture and moving very, very specifically, very slowly, very rigidly.
06:16And when I was, you know, directing him, it was more a case of me just saying, all right, turn
06:21your head to the left, hold still, hold still, now walk forward.
06:26Like, it was stuff like that.
06:27And because the costume is so simple that once we, you know, stop trying to have him move too much,
06:33once we stop having him, you know, act, so to speak,
06:38all of a sudden it takes on this very emotional quality because it's so still and because nothing is happening.
06:43And you start projecting, you know, the context onto that very blank face.
06:49And that was a really profound moment on set when we realized that we don't have to have him doing
06:54that much for the ghost to actually work.
06:56When I was watching it, parts of it definitely felt like a horror movie when you would pan and suddenly
07:01he's there.
07:02Really wonderful.
07:04Tell me about the aspect ratio.
07:06That's pretty unique.
07:07I love the one, three, three, one aspect ratio.
07:11I just, it's a, it's a, it's a pleasing image to me.
07:13Okay.
07:13And I particularly love it in modern films because all of our means of viewing films these days are rectangular.
07:21Right.
07:22You know, if you watch a one through three movie on your TV at home, it's going to have black
07:25bars on the side.
07:26And I like that.
07:27Like that's something about that really appeals to me because it provides a proscenium that you view the movie through.
07:33So that was something I was already interested in exploring and utilizing.
07:36And this film felt particularly, you know, well suited for that aspect ratio because it's about someone trapped in a
07:45box for eternity, basically.
07:47And the claustrophobia of that situation I felt could be amplified by the boxiness of the aspect ratio.
07:54And then we also curved the edges a little bit to make it feel sort of like an old slideshow
08:01or an old, you know, family photograph album and just add this touch of nostalgia to it because nostalgia is
08:05such a big part of what the movie is about.
08:06So this is a very different movie from the one you had made just before it, which is Disney's Pete's
08:13Dragon.
08:13What was it like for you to just kind of return to the indie world and do something that's such
08:19a different pace?
08:21It wasn't that different.
08:22I mean, to be honest, I was expecting it to be more different than it was.
08:25But I was also expecting Pete's Dragon to be more different from the indie films I'd made prior to that.
08:30So I kind of realize now that all movies kind of just feel the same.
08:33Some of them just take longer to shoot and have slightly bigger crews.
08:37But, you know, we learned so much making Pete's Dragon and we're able to utilize that on this film, even
08:42though it is very, very small, whether it comes to visual effects or just, you know, you get better as
08:46a director with every film you make.
08:48And I definitely felt like I had gotten a little bit better because of Pete's Dragon.
08:53And the biggest difference is just, you know, there's, you know, as opposed to 200 people on the crew, you
08:58got 50 or 10 sometimes or sometimes only two.
09:02And and then you only have, you know, a few weeks to shoot as opposed to months and months and
09:06months.
09:06So that's the biggest difference. But at the end of the day, you're still using all the same equipment and
09:11the same cameras and a lot of the same crew was on board and some of the cast.
09:15And so it really felt like a continuation of that process on a creative level.
09:21That's really nice. So this is a movie that started out, as you said, from one image.
09:26And what do you what are some of the ideas about death and grieving that you found yourself thinking about
09:35while writing it and shooting it?
09:39I am, you know, as with all I think all people are familiar with the idea of, you know, thinking
09:44about their death and trying to come to terms with the fact that we will at some point no longer
09:48exist.
09:48And that the loss of one's ego is very tough to like reconcile with.
09:55You really have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to wrap your head around the idea of just not
10:00existing anymore.
10:01If you believe in an afterlife, then that's a way to get beyond that. And that's beautiful and wonderful.
10:06But if you don't just the idea that you're not going to exist anymore is really troubling.
10:13And so this was a way for me to say, like, OK, if I'm going to, you know, be open
10:19to the idea of there not being an afterlife, which I think is like just being open to the idea
10:23is important to me.
10:25I need to be OK with that. How can I be OK with that? That was a way this movie
10:28was a way for me to sort of like explore that.
10:30And then in terms of the grieving process, that's something, you know, you know, as I get older and the
10:36people, you know, I grew up with my parents and grandparents get older and and start to, you know,
10:41I've lost grandparents at this point. My parents are, you know, getting the point where I'm thinking like someday they
10:47won't be around anymore.
10:48I luckily haven't lost anyone terribly close to me yet, but it's something I think about a lot.
10:53And I realized in thinking about it that a lot of the, you know, a lot of what I think
10:59about and what I would I project onto my ideas of grief are my ideas of them being gone from
11:06my life.
11:06And again, that's just my own ego kind of getting in the way of of something that is very natural
11:11and very, you know, that that's going to happen to everybody.
11:14And I I was spending a lot of time just trying to project, you know, I try and think about
11:22what it is like for someone else rather than thinking about, like, what is being left behind, which is me
11:27and all of the people who will be grieving.
11:29Like, what about them that the the individuals who are moving on and like that experience is so personal and
11:36so private.
11:37And I've read a great deal about it and tried to, like, get myself in the mindset of, you know,
11:42understanding what people go through on both sides of that equation.
11:47But I really was interested in the idea of, you know, removing my ego from that equation, because so much
11:55of, you know, especially in the Western world, our cultural ideas of like what the grieving process is, is just
12:01about us.
12:02And I think it's important to sort of get beyond that sometimes.
12:05Yeah, there's that speech that Will Oldham makes in the movie.
12:10Is that how you found yourself feeling about that?
12:13Yeah, that was that was basically just me rationalizing or working my way towards some form of acceptance about, you
12:19know, death, whether it's our own death or those of the one the death of those around us who we
12:23love.
12:24And there's no answer in there. He doesn't quite reach a thesis statement because I haven't reached it myself and
12:30I'm still figuring it out.
12:31What, you know, what all of this means to me. But, you know, he gets two thirds of the way
12:36there.
12:37And that's sort of where I was at at the point when I wrote this movie to any new realizations
12:41through editing and promoting the movie all the time.
12:45I mean, you know, I I never really understand what a movie is until I start hearing from other, you
12:53know, you know, audience members or just folks who have seen it, what they get out of it.
12:57And then I start to realize that, oh, yeah, that that's all there. And so hearing from people about what
13:03an emotional experience it is, is really, you know, profoundly meaningful to me because you get as a filmmaker so
13:10caught up in the technical minutia and trying to make sure that, you know, the color correction is done.
13:15And the sound mix is just right that you forget that what you set out to do is create this
13:19very emotional experience.
13:21So hearing how emotional it is for audience members and the degree to which it's emotional and the ways in
13:26which it's emotional is really beautiful to me because I'd kind of forgotten about that.
13:31And I didn't understand the degree to which people would find themselves getting attached and involved in the love story.
13:38That was something that I felt would, you know, have a certain amount of sway over the storytelling, but a
13:43certain point would recede.
13:45And the fact that it is so profoundly moving to people on that level, on the level of a love
13:50story is is great because at the end of the day, I'm a huge romantic.
13:54And so I, I like knowing that no matter how, how much I might feel like I'm drifting away from
13:59that, I'm still coming back at the end.
14:00Hmm. That scene also has a surprising cameo by Kesha.
14:05Who knew?
14:05Whose new song came out today and is amazing.
14:08True. True.
14:08How did that cameo come about?
14:10I just love Kesha.
14:11Okay.
14:13That's really where it came from.
14:16I wanted to have, you know, one of her songs in the party.
14:19Okay.
14:19And that turned into wonder if we could get her to write an original song for the party, which then
14:24turned into her just coming to Texas and, and hanging out on set for a day and showing up in
14:29the movie and having that one, you know, nice little moment there before and after Will's monologue.
14:34And I just, her music makes me feel alive in a way that other music doesn't.
14:39And I really love just her spirit and what she represents.
14:43And, and, you know, even though it's a small part and it's in some, some folks don't even realize it's
14:49her in there.
14:50Yeah.
14:50It, I love knowing that she's there.
14:52I feel that adds something very meaningful to me.
14:54So even if, even if it means nothing to anyone else, I'm so thrilled and touched and happy that she's
15:00in there.
15:01And, and she did in fact collaborate on the song that plays in that sequence too, which is a, just
15:06a, a sort of a dream come true to me to have two of my favorite musicians, Will Oldham and
15:09Kesha in a scene together.
15:11Yeah.
15:11That was pretty epic.
15:11I was like, whoa, caught off guard for that one.
15:13Yeah.
15:13It was totally, you know, it was like a very spontaneous thing.
15:16We didn't know if it would work out or if she would, if we could even get through to her,
15:19but she was totally game to come, come hang out.
15:22Was that the first time you had met her?
15:23Completely.
15:23Yeah.
15:24I walked into, I walked into the house next door to where we were shooting, which is where all the
15:28wardrobe was kept.
15:28And there she was.
15:29And I was like, Oh yeah, she actually came.
15:31This is amazing.
15:32Amazing.
15:33Um, so can you talk to me about the design of the sheet that Casey's under?
15:38Um, the eyes are like particularly droopy and they really affect you in some of the shots.
15:43The, the, the initial concept was, we're just going to get a bed sheet, cut two holes in it and
15:48throw it over Casey's head.
15:49And that will be it.
15:50And we tried that not with Casey.
15:52He wasn't there yet.
15:52Thankfully he would have, he would have probably quit if he realized how dumb that looked.
15:55Uh, but we, we tried that and realized that what works for, you know, a seven year old on Halloween
16:02will not work for a feature length film about a ghost.
16:05And so my costume designer and Al Broder spent a while just experimenting with fabric and trying to figure out
16:12how to make this ghost still look like someone with a, wearing a sheet over their head.
16:17But in a way that maintains the, you know, what we were, what we were, we realized we were trying
16:22to do is create a three dimensional version of a drawing of a sheet over someone's head, which when you
16:27draw a picture of a ghost like that, it's a very, you know, defined arc with two very symmetrical holes
16:32for the eyes.
16:33And making that work in three dimensions was way trickier than we thought it required, you know, a lot of,
16:40you had to wear a lot of petticoats underneath, underneath the outfit.
16:43There were all these layers.
16:44There was a head mask that you would wear because one of the things that happens when you just cut
16:49holes in the sheet is the eyes turn to slits very quickly and they lose their, their definition and they
16:53go askew.
16:54And they don't, you know, the face just kind of falls apart.
16:57And when you look at, you know, kids on Halloween, their nose is often coming through the eye holes because
17:00the face just won't stay there.
17:02And so since we had this character that had to move around and, and turn his head and look around,
17:07there had to be a lot of reinforcements under the actual sheet, which wasn't even a sheet, a king size
17:12bed sheet will not cover a human being.
17:14And we, so we had to, you know, they were completely fabricated from scratch and had to have a certain
17:19weight so that the, the folds would hang and just the right way.
17:23And so everything would drape in this very sort of elegant fashion.
17:27And then beyond that, it required some puppeteering so that when he did turn his head or sit down or
17:33look up, the, the eyes would still stay in the same place and not get all, you know, skewed or,
17:40or too droopy.
17:41Sometimes he would just, you know, the, the sheet would bunch up around his face and he'd look like a,
17:46an elephant basically.
17:47It was a really weird, it was like, we called the elephant, we just, we were like, oh, he's got
17:50an elephant trunk all of a sudden.
17:51And the sheet would just bunch up like a trunk.
17:54So a lot of times our costume team would be just hiding just below frame, just holding the sheet in
17:58place and puppeteering it so that the face would maintain that very simple quality that nonetheless is very, very emotional.
18:06And then there's, there's black scrim underneath the eye holes so that there's always like just this, you know, infinite
18:12darkness behind the eyes.
18:15But, you know, Casey could kind of see through them on the other end, just barely.
18:19Worked out.
18:20Yeah.
18:20So for those of you watching that are in New York City, there's actually a store called a ghost store
18:26that's in Chinatown right now.
18:28It's open through Sunday and it's where people can, I believe, get their own sheet after filling out a very
18:34personal questionnaire.
18:35And you recently did that, right?
18:37I went there for the first time two weeks ago and I was just blown away by it because it
18:42sounds goofy.
18:43It is goofy.
18:44It's funny.
18:44It's a very funny concept, but it goes so far beyond just being a stunt or being a joke.
18:50It really is, oddly enough, a very profound experience in the 15 or 20 minutes it takes to go through
18:56the whole thing.
18:56Mm-hmm .
18:57And it's incredibly complimentary to the movie.
18:59I feel like going to see the movie after going to that store or vice versa would be a wonderful
19:05way to spend a Sunday evening.
19:07Gosh, sounds good.
19:08And then in the movie, Casey Affleck is stuck in basically the land where he shared a home with his
19:17wife played by Rooney Mara.
19:19He's, yeah, stuck in those four walls, basically.
19:21Yeah.
19:21So what is it about personal attachment to place that you found yourself discussing in this movie?
19:25That's something that was very, you know, very much on my mind when I was, you know, getting, you know,
19:31writing this and making it.
19:32And I'm someone who's very sentimental, very nostalgic, and I'm very attached to the homes that I've lived in.
19:39Mm-hmm .
19:39And moving is a traumatic experience for me.
19:42I think it's a traumatic experience for everyone, but if you're one of those folks who just lays down roots
19:47very, very quickly
19:47and just finds a way to ingrain yourself in the space you live in, it can be very hard to
19:52tear yourself out of them.
19:53Mm-hmm .
19:53And I had moved out of, you know, a home that I'd been living in with my wife and was
19:58really upset by it.
20:00Mm-hmm . . .
20:00And this was in Texas.
20:01We were moving to L.A. to make Pete's Dragon.
20:03Mm-hmm . . .
20:03And I just did not want to leave and just was very, very, very, you know, conflicted about just getting
20:09in the car to leave.
20:10Right.
20:10You know, it was very tough for me.
20:12And I started to just think back about why am I so attached to these spaces?
20:16Why does it matter so much to me?
20:18And I think it just comes back to home.
20:19Just I've, I've, I was, you know, raised in a, a very, you know, well-structured and loving home.
20:25I was lucky enough to have two parents who really, you know, went out of their way to provide that
20:29for me and my siblings.
20:30And as a result, I'm just looking for that everywhere I go and trying to recreate that.
20:34And, and so it is, it's tough for me to move on from places.
20:37It's tough for me to let go, even though I realize that it is not only necessary, but very important
20:42to be able to do so.
20:44And so making this movie was a great way for me to work through that, do a little bit of
20:48therapy and figure out why physical spaces matter so much to me.
20:52And also, you know, that I do need to kind of lessen my grasp on them from time to time.
20:57This was shot in Texas.
20:58Yeah.
20:59And are you back in Texas now?
21:01Yeah, we moved, we moved back there to make this movie and stayed there.
21:04And, and I like being there.
21:06I like having a home base there because I'm gone nine months out of the year working on other projects.
21:12And to be able to just sort of go back to someplace that feels like home is a very comforting
21:17thing for a nostalgic fellow like myself.
21:20So while you're around promoting this movie, you also just wrapped production on your next one, which is The Old
21:26Man and the Guns starring Robert Redford.
21:28Again, Casey Affleck and Danny Glover and Sissy Spacek.
21:32Tell us a little bit about what's going on there.
21:34Yeah, we just finished that a couple weeks ago and I should be editing it right now.
21:38But you know, it's a great, this is a great opportunity to sort of like take my mind off of
21:41that after the, after the production.
21:43It's a true story.
21:45It's based on a New Yorker article by David Grand called The Old Man and the Gun.
21:49And it's about a 70 year old bank robber who just can't quit robbing banks.
21:52And the, the project was brought to me by Robert Redford back in 2013 after he saw The Body of
22:00Saints.
22:00It was a character that he had long admired and wanted to play.
22:04And, and, and so he asked me to write the script.
22:07And then we went and made Pete's Dragon and I was able to rope him into that because we already
22:11had this relationship.
22:11And now finally we got around to making it.
22:14And it's a, it's a really fun movie.
22:16It's a complete left turner from a ghost story because it's just fun.
22:19I mean, it's like a fun story.
22:20It's a, it's lighthearted.
22:22It's a tribute to Robert Redford for me.
22:24I don't, you know, I don't want to, I don't think he looks at it that way.
22:27He's looking at it as a great character.
22:28But for me, you know, working with him, there's never any moment where I'm able to say this is not
22:32Robert Redford.
22:33This is, this is a legendary actor who is, you know, defined cinema for the past 50 years now almost.
22:40And I wanted to, you know, pay tribute to him.
22:44And so this movie is sort of a, for me, a love letter to him and to what he's done
22:48for cinema and especially independent cinema.
22:51And, and, but beyond that, it's also just a really great character for him to play.
22:55And it's a fun movie.
22:56So I'm excited to get back to work on it.
22:58Amazing.
22:58And so all your projects up to this point have just been very wildly different, which is awesome.
23:04How do you decide what you want to work on, what you want to write and, and pursue?
23:09I just sort of just, you know, if I can work on something long enough for it to get, you
23:13know, to finish a script, much less get to production, then it clearly interests me long enough to do it.
23:18And there's no definition as to what that is.
23:20You know, I've started many projects that have not reached, you know, page 20 or not reached day one of
23:25photography because they just weren't quite right.
23:27And I don't know what that quite right is.
23:30I don't have a way to, you know, to chart it out or define it or to make plans for
23:34it.
23:34But when something feels right, I just do it.
23:36And, uh, obviously movies are hard to just go do it.
23:40You know, it's hard, but you, you realize a certain point, you know, whether it's in the writing stage or
23:45as you're moving from writing towards prep, whether or not this is a story that you really want to tell
23:49or an experience that you want to give up, give to audiences or that you as an audience member would
23:54want to have yourself.
23:55That's really the most important thing to me because I love going to the movies.
23:58It's my favorite thing to do.
23:59And for every film I make, I just always am thinking like, would this make me happy if I were
24:03to sit down and watch it?
24:04And, uh, and if it, if it would, then I try to make it.
24:07And if it doesn't, then I sort of back off as quickly as I can, but you know, they're all
24:13different.
24:14They're every one of these movies is very, very different, but at the same time, they all feel the same
24:17to me.
24:18And I'm, I'm curious about that.
24:20You know, with old man, the gun, I was like, let's see how different we can make it in terms
24:23of the way it looks or the way it feels.
24:25And still see if it feels like one of our films.
24:28And I'm sure it will.
24:29I'm like, I'll find out over the next few months of editing it.
24:32But I think, you know, at the end of the day, it's going to feel right in line with everything
24:35else.
24:36And to those young filmmakers watching out there, what advice would you give them about navigating the industry today?
24:43It's, it's navigating the industry is the hard part, I think, because it, but it's also the easy part.
24:48Cause that's, you know, it's so easy to make things now.
24:50I see things on, on Instagram or on, you know, social media that are just like unbelievable.
24:57These, these, these films and these videos that young filmmakers are making.
25:01And I am envious because when I was 12 or 13, I didn't have the means to do that.
25:06I had a, you know, friend of my dad's had a camcorder that I could borrow that was really bad
25:10and, you know, low quality.
25:12Now you can shoot 4k on your iPhone and make amazing things and, and get them out to people very
25:17easily and very quickly just by hitting a button.
25:18And, but it is difficult to figure out how to make a living.
25:23You know, if you're trying to navigate the industry in terms of a career that can be challenging because there's
25:27so much out there and you really have to distinguish yourself from everyone else.
25:32And I think that is probably the most important thing to, to, to keep trying to not quit, to make
25:38stuff and figure out what your voice is.
25:40And that sounds like a cliche, but especially now that is incredibly important because you have to make, you know,
25:47something that represents you as a person.
25:49And then that's, what's going to make a difference from everything, everything else that's out there.
25:52Awesome. Well said.
25:53Well, that's all the time that we have. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat.
25:57Um, 824 releases a ghost story on Friday, July 7th.
26:01And for more entertainment news, head to THR.com. Thanks.
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