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Killjoy 2024 [Full Movie] [Vertical Drama]Full EP - Full
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00:00:28Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:40CastingWords
00:01:28CastingWords
00:01:29Can you have a photo of your mum Carolyn?
00:01:33Sure.
00:01:33more. This is my mum, Carolyn. I remember looking at it and being like, I wonder if she
00:01:44was happy. I knew that every person that I ever met was eventually going to ask me where
00:01:54my mum was. And I dreaded it because I didn't want to have to explain the whole situation.
00:02:05I felt a lot of shame around it. Just having to deal with other people's reactions or responses
00:02:12or opinions, hold their anger, confusion, disgust, pain, surprise, awkwardness, or their silence.
00:02:23Sometimes I would make things up. I would just say a different cause of death that seemed
00:02:32like simpler. It was somewhere between I don't want to talk about it and just lying about the
00:02:39way she died. But the truth is my dad killed my mum. I was three months old.
00:03:05My life was just always in the shadow of this horrible tragedy.
00:03:19Because I was never told anything. I've always wanted to know what happened, how it happened,
00:03:26why it happened. To keep knowing until somehow I can make it better.
00:03:36I would never want this to happen to anybody. But I am who I am because of it.
00:04:02I came to know Carolyn probably about two, well, about two years before all of this happened.
00:04:08My name is Jill Brodie. I met Carolyn when I was in my late 20s. And she was a wonderful
00:04:18teacher,
00:04:19amazing musician, kind. And of course, physically, she was so beautiful.
00:04:26My name is Vicki Sheaf. I was a good friend of Carolyn Stuckey in our late 20s, early 30s.
00:04:37And now I'm sitting here at 71. We got scholarships to go to teachers college and we developed very strong
00:04:46friendship. And we just clicked.
00:04:48She was teaching our children at the time and they had known her all their short lives and were very
00:04:56fond of her. I can remember my son, age five, saying, I love Mrs Stuckey, mum. You know, and he
00:05:03meant it.
00:05:05I think she loved children. I think, you know, you probably don't become a school teacher if you don't love
00:05:12children.
00:05:12She says, I'm going to go, you know, into Miss Lismore. And I thought, oh, good on you, you know.
00:05:18And next thing, she's in the paper and she's won.
00:05:23This one is where she was announced Miss Lismore.
00:05:32And there's Jackie Weaver down there and some guys going in the background.
00:05:39It was a big thing. It was real prestigious to be, you know, Miss Lismore.
00:05:43Oh, yeah. You were special.
00:05:46So, yeah, she would have been easily recognisable. Definitely.
00:05:51She was the sort of woman that people would turn around and look at, but she was oblivious to her
00:05:56beauty.
00:05:57She was oblivious to the effect she had on people.
00:06:01I was with Carolyn at the Lismore Workers' Club and it was a Wednesday night when she met her husband,
00:06:08Alan Stuckey.
00:06:09I don't know whether he owned the pharmacy, but he was certainly the principal in the pharmacy in Lismore.
00:06:14And he was eight years older, so he was well placed.
00:06:19But we were only 18.
00:06:20You know, we're going, who's this dude, you know, who's this dude coming over here?
00:06:26She was there for the picking, wasn't she?
00:06:29She's a pretty little thing, big blue eyes, blonde hair.
00:06:35Easily, easily won over, I would say.
00:06:38This one is the two of them and my dad's sister at their wedding.
00:06:49I mean, the first thing I think is those sideburns were quite, quite a statement.
00:06:57Yeah, I mean, look, it's a bit strange to look at wedding photos of them.
00:07:05There's a lot of, like, hope and promise in that moment of a future that would look a lot different
00:07:14than it turned out to look.
00:07:23Her marriage to Alan Stuckey, they just didn't, to me and to a lot of people, didn't seem to.
00:07:32Mashed together.
00:07:33He was into tennis, big way.
00:07:37But yeah, that wasn't her thing at all, no.
00:07:40She was more literary and arty and music and, you know, different.
00:07:45Yeah, they were chocolate cheese, really, when you analyse it like that.
00:07:50The Lismore Theatre Club was a very, kind of, vibrant community.
00:07:59I think it was a place where a lot of people could, kind of, have some fun and have this
00:08:05social connection.
00:08:08Most of our friends at that time belonged to the theatre club.
00:08:12And Carolyn had never previously been in the theatre club.
00:08:15But I think she envied the fun we had.
00:08:19And so, she auditioned.
00:08:22Is it for Cole being a ghost?
00:08:25No, I don't think so.
00:08:27What happens if I punch you?
00:08:29I doubt if you can. Do you want to?
00:08:31Oh, well, Vera.
00:08:32Life Spirit is a play written by Noel Coward.
00:08:36It's about a man who is haunted by the ghost of his dead wife.
00:08:40The ghost is played by my mum, Carolyn.
00:08:43You are here, aren't you? You're not an illusion.
00:08:46I may be an illusion, but I'm most definitely here.
00:08:49And her husband is played by Alan Ennue.
00:08:53You must promise me that in future, you'll only come and talk to me when I'm alone.
00:08:57My dear mademoiselle party.
00:08:59I'm afraid I'm wrongly.
00:09:01And also in this play was Alan's wife, Madeline, who is playing a psychic.
00:09:08I may have to go into a psychic trance, but if I do, pay your attention.
00:09:14I'm sorry.
00:09:321949 He's a son of a psychic.
00:09:345.
00:09:35Diablo.
00:09:35guidelines.
00:09:36New Dimensions
00:09:39by the Smiths
00:09:40by the Smiths
00:09:40by the Smiths
00:09:41by the Smiths
00:09:41by the Smiths
00:09:43The last time I was here was when Bly's Spirit was a production.
00:09:57Oh, there's Dad.
00:10:00It's a very typical Dad in Theatre Club look.
00:10:04There's Mum.
00:10:08You know, my Dad loved this place.
00:10:10He loved acting.
00:10:10And Mum did too.
00:10:12She was a good actor.
00:10:15There's a program there.
00:10:19Who's in it.
00:10:21And then a bunch of photos, so...
00:10:26It's this one.
00:10:28There's a couple like this with Dad and Caroline.
00:10:31Just this moment caught where they're looking at each other
00:10:35and I just go, yeah.
00:10:39You know, that's the sort of vibe that my Mum would have got hold of.
00:10:45Because the emotions were real, right?
00:10:48They weren't just acting.
00:10:54I don't know all the details of what went on there, but definitely a relationship was developing
00:11:02and a friendship and an attraction.
00:11:04The silliest thing I ever did in my whole life was to love you.
00:11:08They say a grand passion is like an insanity, and it was for both of them.
00:11:12I came because of the power of Charles' love.
00:11:16Tugged and tugged and tugged at me.
00:11:19Didn't make my sweet.
00:11:22Yes, there was a lot of sneaking around, which happens in an affair,
00:11:26but lots of presents and flowers and gifts.
00:11:31I did have to keep a secret.
00:11:34I could see how happy they both were.
00:11:37I mean, I cared deeply for Madeline as well, so that was very difficult.
00:11:42The risks that Alan Inu and Carolyn took.
00:11:46The notes that were left on the telegraph pole at the end of the road, on her car.
00:11:51I saw one at the supermarket when I was there one day, walked past her car,
00:11:56and there was one of these notes.
00:11:57My dearest, most precious Carolyn, I love you.
00:12:03You are a wonderful man.
00:12:05Kind, thoughtful, understanding.
00:12:09I love the thoughts of our ultimate togetherness, which I now see is inevitable.
00:12:15Alan Inu had moved out of his home and had rendered a little flat.
00:12:22Madeline wasn't coping at all.
00:12:25She lost a lot of weight very quickly.
00:12:29I remember one day she told me she was going to kill herself.
00:12:33I said, oh, you know, you can't do that.
00:12:36Her two boys were at university in Sydney.
00:12:38Her daughter, Claire, was 18.
00:12:42She said she couldn't be jilted.
00:12:44She couldn't be left on her own as someone left for the younger person.
00:12:49She couldn't deal with that humiliation.
00:12:51And I spoke to my GP and he said what people used to say in those days.
00:12:55He said, oh, if they talk about it, they don't do it.
00:12:59And he was a well-meaning man.
00:13:02But that was wrong.
00:13:05Alan found the body and she'd organised so that Claire wasn't home that night.
00:13:09And sure enough, everything in the house was tip top.
00:13:15Food was made for her own funeral.
00:13:22In her letter to me because she wrote suicide letters, she told me not to blame my father.
00:13:28And honestly, I don't.
00:13:29I don't blame anyone in this story.
00:13:32It's just really hard being the child of that story, you know.
00:13:41It's all very tragic to think about the fact that these two women in this play are now dead in
00:13:50the ways that they died.
00:13:56Carolyn was, she was devastated by it and felt incredible guilt.
00:14:03I would say that Alan Enu, he was very sad about Madeleine and it was a traumatic and hideous thing
00:14:10that happened and he found her.
00:14:14But he was so obsessed with the fact that one day Carolyn would come to him and so he bought
00:14:19this big house.
00:14:21That was going to be the home with lots of bedrooms so that they could have all their children there
00:14:26eventually at times.
00:14:27That was his idea.
00:14:28No one wanted to be divorced.
00:14:30No one wanted to leave their husband.
00:14:32Because there was a lot of stigma in the community.
00:14:35Not today, but back in the 70s, dead right, in the 80s.
00:14:39If she left the marriage, she was concerned.
00:14:43What?
00:14:45I guess the parents of her students, the church.
00:14:48She felt enormous shame for going against what she had been taught as far as her religion was concerned.
00:14:56Religion was a big part of growing up in the 50s and 60s.
00:15:00Huge, you know.
00:15:01Everybody.
00:15:02It was rare for a family not to go to church.
00:15:06When she told us that Alan Stucky had found out, I thought, right, now something will happen now.
00:15:12Either she will stay with him or she'll go with Alan Enu.
00:15:15But at least it's not this terrible, dangerous game that they were still playing.
00:15:22You've distanced yourself and made me resentful by taunting me with Alan Enu.
00:15:28If you do not love me, then I cannot go on to even try to work things out.
00:15:35My mum decided to stay with my dad and he made her swear on the Bible and he wrote vows
00:15:44for her to take.
00:15:49I swear never to say or do anything again to hurt you.
00:15:54I swear never to lie to my husband, Alan, ever again.
00:15:59I swear that the affair is over completely and that I will never do anything directly or indirectly to have
00:16:08any type of relationship with him again.
00:16:11I swear to love, honour and cherish you for the rest of my days.
00:16:18I asked her if she was worried for her own safety and she said, no, no.
00:16:25She said, I'm not, but I am worried what he might do to Alan Enu.
00:16:32Alan, if you should have any thoughts of trying to rekindle the relationship or even getting in touch with her
00:16:38in any way,
00:16:38then I will tell you now, you will join your wife.
00:16:45But she was very unhappy.
00:16:49She, well, she'd just had a baby.
00:16:54It must have been so stressful for her.
00:16:56And she had two little boys as well.
00:17:03My darling Alan, to choose to go to you meant the disruption of her family, gossip and talk about the
00:17:11cause of Madeline's death.
00:17:15To stay with Alan meant unbearable pain for you.
00:17:20For me, it meant an ache inside which I know will be with me every day for the rest of
00:17:25my life.
00:17:28She'd supposedly broken off with Alan Enu.
00:17:31It was over.
00:17:32Suddenly, she was seeing him again.
00:17:34And I said, Alan Stuckey will not let her go without a fight.
00:17:39We always knew that he was a man who would not be able to accept it.
00:17:48Like a lot of people, I suppose.
00:17:52And then he puts a private detective on her.
00:17:54Good God.
00:17:55She thought Alan Stuckey had been having her followed.
00:18:00I think she said, a little grey Volkswagen, I think I'm being followed.
00:18:06And to which I just thought, oh my God, where's that going to go?
00:18:11There's absolutely no excuse for that behaviour.
00:18:14Monitoring someone's movements is a huge indicator of family violence, of coercive control.
00:18:20I find it really disturbing that he did that.
00:18:23That he felt justified in doing that.
00:18:39My darling, I'm going to ask you again for the complete peace of mind.
00:18:45Have you had any contact since your vows?
00:18:49I beg you, I implore you, do not tell me a lie.
00:18:55It is the most important question you will ever answer.
00:19:01All I know is I love you more than anything.
00:19:05Alan.
00:19:09I happened to be in the station on the 31st of January 1985, when the phone rang and I answered
00:19:18it.
00:19:18There was a male voice on the other end of the phone, very calmly said, it's Alan Stuckey from Five
00:19:26Banksia Court, Lisbore Heights.
00:19:30And I said, yes, Alan, how can we help you?
00:19:33And he said, you'd better come up.
00:19:35I've just shot my wife.
00:19:37You know, when you did your training at the police academy, one of the things that I do remember very
00:19:42clearly that they instilled in young police was that domestic violence incidents, attending those was the most dangerous situation that
00:19:52we would go to.
00:19:55Of course, you know, I was anxious approaching the house under those circumstances and, you know, we went into the
00:20:03house and Alan Stuckey was sitting in the kitchen at a bench.
00:20:08He was just sitting there calmly, sipping coffee from a mug, as though nothing had happened. It was, yeah, it
00:20:18was quite surreal.
00:20:24I walked into the main bedroom and there was a double bed to the right.
00:20:30At the foot of the bed was a female person. It was quite shocking, obviously, what had happened to start
00:20:39with, but also having the, you know, the three children in the house at the time and, yeah, by good
00:20:48fortune, perhaps nothing happened to them at the time.
00:20:54I was teaching down the other end of the peninsula here. I had on the playground on duty and my
00:21:00husband pulled up.
00:21:01I said, what are you doing here? He said, oh, I've got terrible news to tell you.
00:21:06I turned the radio on next to the bed and it said that a 32-year-old small woman had
00:21:15been shot dead overnight.
00:21:17Police were at the scene in Cadillabar and we knew.
00:21:25It was fairly hysterical in our house. It was, we were incredibly upset. Alan had killed Carolyn.
00:21:32And as a child, I just had no concept of what that, how that could happen.
00:21:39I can still remember the feeling and thinking, oh my God, I could have stopped this. That was something I
00:21:46think a lot of people thought.
00:21:50In a case like that, a murder or an unlawful killing of someone, we call out the detectives, they come
00:21:58to the scene, they take over the investigation.
00:22:01The lead investigator was Detective Sergeant Don Kuehl.
00:22:06Senior Councillor Will Palmer rang me at home, told me that there had been a shooting and a lady was
00:22:13deceased.
00:22:14We went back to the police station where he was interviewed in the presence of his solicitor.
00:22:20Given some of the answers and whatnot, I'd say that he'd ran through a lot of the possible situations with
00:22:27his solicitor prior, which he's entitled to do.
00:22:31For the information of this record of interview, what is your full name?
00:22:35Alan James Stuckey. I had reason to doubt her fidelity and I engaged the private investigator to check her movements.
00:22:43Can you tell me what happened?
00:22:44She admitted that she had been with Alan Enu on that day. She said she couldn't give him up.
00:22:49What did you do?
00:22:50I took the rifle from my study and raced back to the bedroom. She screamed and grabbed the barrel of
00:22:56the rifle and we struggled.
00:22:58Shots were fired.
00:23:00When did you load this rifle?
00:23:02I was going to shoot a flying fox a couple of months ago and that's when.
00:23:05Did you load the magazine loaded with live cartridges in this rifle in your study?
00:23:10Yes, but it was right back behind the bed so that it's not easy for anybody to get at.
00:23:15What happened then?
00:23:16I had a shower and tried to compose my mind and work out if I should kill myself or not.
00:23:22I rang my sister to ask her to come and collect my children.
00:23:25And it occurred to me that there was a debt that I hadn't paid and that was to the private
00:23:29investigator.
00:23:30And I rang his residence to tell him that his money was in the work safe.
00:23:34I didn't want to feel that I had left some money hoeing.
00:23:37You have explained to us your wife's affair with the person, Alan, in you.
00:23:41Is that the only reason you can give us for this shooting having taken place?
00:23:45Yes. And considerations allied to it, yes.
00:23:48Is there anything further you wish to say in relation to this matter?
00:23:52Just that the affair has been going on for two years.
00:23:56That's all.
00:24:01I was three months old.
00:24:04My brothers were four and eight.
00:24:07And to have the children in the house when he did it.
00:24:11I mean, you can't imagine that scene.
00:24:15I don't think you can make sense of it.
00:24:18It's unforgivable.
00:24:19Should never have happened.
00:24:23I mean, the type of thing that was going on happens all the time.
00:24:28People don't die for it.
00:24:31After he was charged with murder, Alan Stuckey was bailed.
00:24:37The reason he would have got bailed is because of his standing community as a chemist.
00:24:41No prior convictions.
00:24:44His young children were still there.
00:24:46He's not going to decamp.
00:24:48So Stuckey got bailed.
00:24:50We're back to work, I think.
00:24:53My dad was charged with murder.
00:24:56But the trial wasn't for a year and a half.
00:25:00It was quite surprising to me, I think, when I realised that my brothers and I were at home with
00:25:07my dad a lot of that time.
00:25:10He was able to get out, resume a normal life with his children, with his three young children, back in
00:25:19his house in Lismore Heights and go back as a practicing pharmacist of all things.
00:25:25Despite the fact that he had killed Caroline, he still had the legal right to dispose of her body as
00:25:34her husband.
00:25:35And he just simply had her cremated instantly with no ceremony.
00:25:43And nobody had a chance to recognise what had happened or to say goodbye to her.
00:25:53It was just as though she'd been put out with the rubbish.
00:25:57I've always wanted to know everything about it, you know, like everything surrounding it.
00:26:05I've always wanted to know what happened, how it happened, why it happened.
00:26:15That's been a lifelong journey.
00:26:22I want to understand where we were and where I was and what happened afterwards and why the decisions that
00:26:31were made were made.
00:26:39So part of it is just wanting to know about my own life and know information and put those puzzle
00:26:46pieces together.
00:26:52So this is the trial transcript.
00:26:58And are you feeling okay about looking at it now?
00:27:02I am. I feel a little bit nervous about it.
00:27:06I don't know. There's a part of me that sort of wants information and then sort of wants to look
00:27:10at it.
00:27:11And then a part of me that finds it quite, you know, upsetting.
00:27:14Absolutely.
00:27:16So in this trial, your father argued that he acted in response to provocation.
00:27:24The provocation in this case was said to be that Carolyn was having an affair.
00:27:33They're arguing that a person's actions contributed to their death.
00:27:39The provocation defence is actually a partial defence.
00:27:43It will reduce your culpability from murder to manslaughter.
00:27:49The guideline of the provocation and the evidence required is that it comes back to what an ordinary person would
00:27:57do under those circumstances.
00:28:00So in other words, you and I, would we react the same way as Alan Stuckey acted, given the circumstances?
00:28:09People's marriages break down.
00:28:11I'm a lawyer.
00:28:12And I hate being a family lawyer, but somebody's got to do it.
00:28:16And it happens all the time.
00:28:19But you don't turn around and kill your spouse.
00:28:27Your full name is?
00:28:29William Arthur Barclay, a consultant psychiatrist now in private practice.
00:28:34Are you able to express an opinion as to whether that conduct could have induced an ordinary person to lose
00:28:42self-control in psychiatric terms?
00:28:45Yes, I believe so.
00:28:48There was a certain element of, um, if someone was wronged in that way, then they could be excused for
00:28:57not being able to control themselves.
00:28:59There's an ordinary person get a gun, which is already in the house, loaded, with three young children in the
00:29:06place.
00:29:08There's an ordinary person do that.
00:29:10And there's an ordinary person shoot his wife.
00:29:14And there's an ordinary person have a shower, ring a friend, ring his solicitor.
00:29:19There's an ordinary person do that.
00:29:21The person that they've killed is no longer able to give their side of the story or talk about what
00:29:27they went through.
00:29:28It's very one-sided.
00:29:30And it's, um, highly critical of that person.
00:29:34And then at the same time, you also get people giving evidence about the positive characteristics of the accused.
00:29:41Yeah.
00:29:43When you spoke to your brother, can you describe how he appeared to you to be?
00:29:48Extremely upset.
00:29:50What sort of person is your brother?
00:29:52A very serious-minded, very moral, quiet, shy, very idealistic person.
00:30:01I also think very naive.
00:30:05Is he a violent sort of person?
00:30:07No. No, not at all.
00:30:09He loved the children. He always has.
00:30:12Did he ever express to you the view he took of marriage?
00:30:17That marriage is a sacred thing.
00:30:22It seems so odd to me that none of her friends got to speak for her at least because she
00:30:30wasn't able to speak.
00:30:31So it's like there were other people who could have at least spoke to her character and, um, given some
00:30:40indication of what she was going through.
00:30:43I just, yeah.
00:30:45Yeah, it becomes very one-sided sort of view of what happens in that situation, doesn't it?
00:30:51Yeah, yeah.
00:30:52Sometimes the prosecution could go much further in the way that they approach this and in trying to ask questions
00:31:00and get more information about that context.
00:31:03They don't always understand the dynamics of family violence themselves and the importance of it for understanding what happens in
00:31:13domestic homicides.
00:31:16What we really needed in this trial, as far as the prosecution is concerned, we needed someone that was going
00:31:22to get in there and fight like a bulldog and shake their head and carry on.
00:31:25And, unfortunately, we finished up with a golden retriever.
00:31:29Um, I was appalled at the lack of prosecution.
00:31:33I mean, I remember sitting in the back of the court and just thinking, oh, my God.
00:31:38The worst thing about trying to recover from this for all of us was that there was so, so much
00:31:47shock and horror because she was this scarlet woman.
00:31:52We would hear indirectly about the outrage about what this woman had done to this poor chap, not what this
00:32:00chap had done to this poor woman.
00:32:03Yeah, I just think there was this mindset that she's the villain in all this, she's done the wrong thing.
00:32:12And, in a sense, I hate to say it, but some of those people, I'm sure, think she got what
00:32:19she deserved.
00:32:37So there's quite a lot of evidence in relation to the ballistics, what sort of weapon was used and how
00:32:45that weapon is operated.
00:32:50Carol was shot three times, once in the abdomen and twice in the head.
00:32:56Oh, this one's really graphic.
00:33:04After the first shot, she's wounded lying on the floor, and she wouldn't have died from that shot either, the
00:33:09doctors have said.
00:33:11Surely, he should have realised what he was doing.
00:33:14Two more times, he cocked that gun and fired it again.
00:33:18And this is a bolt-action gun, a bolt-action .22 rifle, so it's not like a semi-automatic where
00:33:23you just have to pull the trigger.
00:33:25There was a manual requirement to reload that gun.
00:33:31Or you can probably just do it like that.
00:33:33That's one, bang, two.
00:33:37It's a very deliberate action, that's what I'm trying to say.
00:33:45Yeah, there is quite a lot in the child transcript about where abouts in the house the shooting occurred.
00:33:52There's a map that's been provided as part of the evidence.
00:33:56And you see that there.
00:33:59Yeah.
00:34:00This is my bedroom.
00:34:02This is my dad's room still, all the way through my life.
00:34:06Absolutely.
00:34:06I go into this room every day that she was, you know, lying here dying and just...
00:34:15Yeah, that's horrible.
00:34:17Yeah.
00:34:17It's awful.
00:34:26He was undoubtedly at all times a man of exceptional character and obvious good standing in the community.
00:34:34The prisoner's control of himself over a lengthy period ultimately snapped when his wife told him she could not give
00:34:42up her lover.
00:34:42In the circumstances, some response on his part would not have been unreasonable.
00:34:48However, to shoot the deceased three times was hardly proportionate to the devastating verbal message.
00:34:56It was greater than the circumstances warranted.
00:35:00In my view, the prisoner is unlikely to again offend against the law.
00:35:05The prisoner's strong subjective matters, unlike many other cases, provide the basis for specifying a non-parole period which will
00:35:14give him the opportunity of resuming his life in the community and with his children at a reasonably early time.
00:35:22Ellen James Stuckey, on the charge on which the jury has convicted you, I sentence you to penal servitude for
00:35:31eight years.
00:35:32I specify a non-parole period of three years.
00:35:38She, like, sort of made me do it.
00:35:40She ran off, you know, went off with another man.
00:35:43Poor, it was all, poor me, poor me.
00:35:45I'm the victim here.
00:35:48Yeah, it makes me really furious, actually.
00:35:53I have difficulty reconciling the fact that this matter resulted in a conviction for manslaughter.
00:36:00I really do.
00:36:01But, of course, I have to accept the court's decision.
00:36:03That's the system of justice that we have in this country.
00:36:06Even though we don't have provocation defence available in most states in Australia anymore,
00:36:13we still see the same explanations for why men acted the way they did in these cases.
00:36:21The provocation narrative can still be used to understand their actions when they're considering sentencing.
00:36:27Right.
00:36:28I asked him one time, like, he said something about the fact that he'd never apologise to us and he
00:36:33was like,
00:36:33I don't owe you or anyone an apology.
00:36:36Wow.
00:36:38The absence of the impact on the children is really striking as well.
00:36:45Yeah.
00:36:45It felt like a real sense of, like, what's best for my father and really centred around him,
00:36:51rather than thinking about us and the long-term impacts of the decisions that were made.
00:36:57And the actual conclusion of that drama was catastrophic for the children especially.
00:37:24So these are, um, letters that my dad wrote me when he was in prison.
00:37:30So I was probably about two or three years old.
00:37:36Most of them are, um, like, pictures of birds that my dad has drawn.
00:37:45Or trees.
00:37:47Dear Catherine, it is Sunday here as I am writing this and the weather is very poor.
00:37:52There is a big fog all over the camp and it is just so thick it is almost like rain.
00:37:58This is a kookaburra. See his big strong beak for eating meat?
00:38:02Sometimes they eat snakes and their song is just like a laugh.
00:38:06Love, Dad.
00:38:17My father served 22 months for killing my mother.
00:38:22On his release, my brothers and I went back to live with him.
00:38:26I was about four years old.
00:38:31I was appalled that he could be given custody of the children.
00:38:36I cannot understand how the court made an order that she was to live with her father.
00:38:44I really cannot understand that.
00:38:48So this is a picture of me in primary school.
00:38:54I excelled at school and I had a lot of friends and I enjoyed it.
00:38:58But it felt like a different world when I went home.
00:39:04I felt a real disconnect between what I was showing people and what I was experiencing internally.
00:39:14I wasn't allowed to talk about my mother.
00:39:19There weren't photos.
00:39:21There weren't stories.
00:39:23I didn't have any sense of who she was.
00:39:28Her name was never mentioned.
00:39:33The story that I was told was that she had done this awful thing.
00:39:40He had snapped and then he killed her and really framed as this sort of accident.
00:39:52I feel like there was a really significant shift in my relationship with my dad.
00:39:58When I went to high school, I really felt like I had become someone that he really didn't like.
00:40:08Where there was this sense of, like, entitlement and control.
00:40:13And that if you step outside of this little box that he's kind of put you in,
00:40:18then you become this huge disappointment and you're uncontrollable.
00:40:26I knew that I had to be a certain way.
00:40:30Show that I was fine.
00:40:34Even if I was suffering.
00:40:38Feeling like at any moment, love will be withdrawn.
00:40:46I just remember bumping into her one day and I knew it was her birthday
00:40:50and I took her around to the cafe and we had nice chocolate and we had a chat.
00:40:55She told me that she understood that her mother was leaving her and the boys.
00:41:04And I just said, no, that's not true.
00:41:12And that's what her father had told her.
00:41:17And I told her that there was no way her mother would have left her.
00:41:25And the lies that she'd been told were just not right.
00:41:35When I was 16 and needed to get my passport and I needed to get a death certificate.
00:41:44And so it was the first time I actually had seen her cause of death, like written down, which was
00:41:50something like the effects of a gunshot wound to the head, which was incredibly confronting for me at 16 because
00:41:58nobody had ever said that to me.
00:42:00They hadn't actually said, like, this is how she died.
00:42:04I remember that feeling of reading that death certificate and being really shocked at, I guess, the bluntness of it,
00:42:12but just also that that was what it was, you know, that my dad had shot her in the head.
00:42:21And that knowledge made me realize that I was unsafe, actually, like physically unsafe.
00:42:30And it's not, it's like I felt that before, but I had this example of like how far he could
00:42:37go.
00:42:38I felt scared of my dad at that time and what he could do because I was also just living
00:42:47on my own with him at that point.
00:42:48My brothers had left home.
00:42:51And I think, why didn't anyone else?
00:42:53Why didn't the adults, you know, ask some questions, check in, all of those things?
00:43:00It's not like people didn't know that that was fucking strange.
00:43:04That was a weird thing that we were growing up in the house that our mother was killed with the
00:43:10man that killed her.
00:43:14I think there was an assumption that everything was fine.
00:43:19Everyone wanted it to be fine.
00:43:21So I thought, well, if I'm not fine, then something's wrong with me, not them.
00:43:28I started having nightmares about her death, like very graphic nightmares about her being shot in this house that I
00:43:39was living in.
00:43:41And it was also just like my everyday house, you know, like coming from school and making myself a snack
00:43:47and, you know, sometimes I would watch something with my dad and it was funny and we'd laugh and it
00:43:53was just my life.
00:43:54And it was also terrifying at times.
00:44:08I knew that to have any sort of peace that I needed to leave Lismore.
00:44:17And I finished my last exam, packed up my stuff and one day when my dad was at work and
00:44:23just left.
00:44:28I actually don't remember saying goodbye to my dad at all.
00:44:33So I went to Sydney and moved in with my cousin, Elle, and the family.
00:44:40And we went to uni together at Sydney Uni.
00:44:45At some point, I got a job at Sydney Theatre Company and that's where I met Tanya.
00:44:53Catherine's my best friend, my former partner.
00:44:56We met in 2008.
00:45:00Neither of us had been in a queer relationship before.
00:45:02So our falling in love was a really beautiful time and also a complicated time.
00:45:07We had like a great crew of friends that we spent time with and saw a lot of art.
00:45:12We were super broke, but it was a beautiful kind of love story.
00:45:19And then also like interwoven with a lot of trauma and pain, I guess.
00:45:26I felt like I would leave behind like everything that had happened and including that feeling of, I guess, you
00:45:38know, depression.
00:45:39And I just assumed that that would go away once I was out of the house and away from my
00:45:45dad.
00:45:49And it didn't.
00:45:51In fact, it felt worse.
00:45:54I was more depressed.
00:45:56I was really depressed.
00:45:58I don't think I've ever seen Catherine asleep.
00:46:01And we were together for four years.
00:46:06Insomnia and nightmares were a big part of our life.
00:46:09They would sit upright and they would be screaming.
00:46:14It was a guttural scream.
00:46:17And they would be shaking, hyperventilating.
00:46:21It was just fear.
00:46:23Just, just fear.
00:46:26How anyone thought that he could raise those kids in the home where he killed Carolyn,
00:46:32and then have one of them grow up with physical likeness to this person,
00:46:37and for people not to think that there was going to be some problems there perplexes me.
00:46:44My father was still in regular contact with me and writing me letters that were pretty awful.
00:46:53Some days we would be going about our days in our tiny little apartment,
00:46:56and it was like living with someone that wasn't there.
00:47:00Like they were the closest person to me in the world.
00:47:03So when they did disappear, it was difficult.
00:47:09And I didn't know what to do.
00:47:12And it was during that time that I went through a lot of things in my life,
00:47:19a breakup with Tanya, that brought a lot of grief and loss into my world.
00:47:29So I started going to therapy like really seriously for the first time.
00:47:37And really started dealing with my childhood.
00:47:52So in 2013, I dropped my surname Stucky,
00:47:57and I made my middle name my surname, which is Joy.
00:48:02And Joy was my mum's middle name.
00:48:06Part of it was not wanting to just be easily tracked down by my father.
00:48:12And then there was really embracing my mum and that side of the family.
00:48:38I always felt like I wasn't going to be around for very long.
00:48:43Like I was going to have a short life, like my mum.
00:48:50I worked out how old she was when she was killed,
00:48:54which was 32 years, nine weeks and six days.
00:49:00And I worked out what date that will be for me.
00:49:04And it's the 27th of December, 2016.
00:49:09So I have a cut off date in my head and I have about six months.
00:49:16I've always just assumed that I would die sometime before then.
00:49:24That's it for me.
00:49:35Part of feeling like I'm not going to be here next year
00:49:39is not having a mother to kind of see what that looks like,
00:49:45what that next part looks like and getting older looks like.
00:49:48And a lot of people look to their parents for that.
00:49:52But part of it, I think, is just that I feel like we're somehow the same person.
00:50:03And that's probably not the healthiest thing in the world.
00:50:15So it's like 2am or something.
00:50:18And I can't sleep because I've never been able to take sleeping pills
00:50:25because they give me these nightmares.
00:50:29I feel like having them around is probably not a good idea, so...
00:50:43I'm supposed to be at therapy today.
00:50:47I had to cancel it because I can't afford to go.
00:50:52Like, I'm 32 and I can't pay my rent.
00:50:58I think that's enough for today.
00:51:06I really didn't want to do this today because I feel awful and...
00:51:14and I'm afraid of not coming out of it.
00:51:32Today is December 26th.
00:51:36So tomorrow...
00:51:38I will be the exact age that my mother was when she was killed.
00:51:42of the wild...
00:51:56She's a baby's part of the wild...
00:51:57and she's alive.
00:51:57She's coming from now...
00:52:03She's going to be a teacher's house...
00:52:04She's going to be a teacher's house up to the wild one.
00:52:07She's going to be a child's house...
00:52:07She's going to be a child's house up to the wild one.
00:52:23So, today is New Year's Day, and I'm alive, so that's kind of strange.
00:52:32I've just realised how many people in my life are willing to help,
00:52:38and it's a really beautiful thing.
00:52:40So, I guess just thinking about the next couple of months,
00:52:44thinking about how I'm going to survive.
00:52:49And some of those things are just kind of practical things to do with work
00:52:55and finding another job.
00:53:00I think I need to learn to drive.
00:53:07I will.
00:53:11I guess be back tomorrow.
00:53:21For such a long time, the only thing that I knew about my mum was the way that she died.
00:53:31Then that became my whole relationship with her.
00:53:38It's been really important to me for her to exist as a person who lived,
00:53:44and not just a person who was killed.
00:53:54I decided that I wanted to write to some people and, like, ask them what my mum was like.
00:54:08So, we're going to Brisbane to meet Anne McKinnon, a friend of my mum's.
00:54:16I'm excited because I never really knew what happened to her.
00:54:23We couldn't get a lot of information.
00:54:27We lost our friend, but you don't know what happened to the children.
00:54:32I probably had never thought about it from the point of view of the child.
00:54:36Their feelings and what their lives turned out like.
00:54:43When my mum was younger, I think they studied together at Teachers College, from what I know.
00:54:50So, it would be nice to hear about.
00:54:53I guess those days before my mum was a mother, too.
00:54:58You know, just her as a younger person.
00:55:06May I hug you? Is that okay?
00:55:08Perfectly. Oh, you're a beautiful girl.
00:55:10I just want you to stand next to me, like, mum and I.
00:55:14Oh, my goodness.
00:55:16You're a little bit taller.
00:55:18Look.
00:55:18Wow.
00:55:19That's going to the ball.
00:55:21Oh, that's a beautiful picture.
00:55:23Oh, we would have been 18.
00:55:25Wow.
00:55:26God, you like her.
00:55:26Oh, my God.
00:55:28So nice to see you.
00:55:29So nice to see you.
00:55:31So, because we buddied up and we used to just wake up at 10 to 9, put the Levi's on
00:55:36and the gym boots and tuck her hair in and jump the fence and go to uni.
00:55:39We had to go 9 to 5 in those days.
00:55:41It was very regimented, marked the role, you know.
00:55:44And she started skipping.
00:55:46I said, you've got to come to social studies.
00:55:48She goes, oh.
00:55:50Oh, yes.
00:55:51I love this.
00:55:52I love this because this is so me.
00:55:54And I said, get up.
00:55:55She goes, no, no, no, I can't be bothered.
00:55:57I said, no, no, no, you'll fail.
00:55:59And she did.
00:56:01Anyway, she got through it.
00:56:02Yeah.
00:56:03She was messy.
00:56:05I'm really messy, dear.
00:56:07Are you messy?
00:56:08I'm so messy.
00:56:08Show me your hands.
00:56:09I'm so undieting.
00:56:10You don't get eczema?
00:56:11I do, yes.
00:56:12So did she.
00:56:13Yeah.
00:56:14And this is a recipe.
00:56:17That's Mum's writing.
00:56:18Oh, yes.
00:56:19She had such neat writing.
00:56:21Carolyn.
00:56:22And that's rum cream.
00:56:23I've got a copy of that.
00:56:24You have that.
00:56:25Oh, thank you.
00:56:26You have that.
00:56:27This is my little treasure trove.
00:56:29I've got to...
00:56:30I'm going to veganise this recipe and make it.
00:56:33Well, you keep all those.
00:56:37Oh, thank you.
00:56:37You're more than welcome.
00:56:38It was so nice to meet you.
00:56:39Thank you so much.
00:56:40It's just been wonderful.
00:56:41It's been really lovely.
00:56:41And I really hope we can catch up again and stay in touch.
00:56:45Give me a big hug.
00:56:53I decided to get in touch with Alan Ennue,
00:56:55who is the man my mother fell in love with,
00:57:00had an affair with,
00:57:01and ask some questions about my mum.
00:57:06Dear Catherine,
00:57:08the first thing I should mention regarding our relationship
00:57:10is that while it started as an affair,
00:57:13it developed into much more.
00:57:15Carolyn was a very special person to me,
00:57:18but not only to me, but many friends she had
00:57:21and was and is sadly missed,
00:57:26even after all this time.
00:57:30I had also received a letter from Claire during that time.
00:57:36She contacted me after she had heard
00:57:41that I'd reached out to her dad.
00:57:43And we just became really good friends
00:57:48and such a big anchor for me.
00:57:53While we didn't have the same experience,
00:57:58there was so many things that were similar
00:58:01and there was just a real understanding
00:58:04of our families and that town
00:58:06and everything that happened.
00:58:17I don't think I've ever really been around here much.
00:58:21Ah, Greenwick.
00:58:23That's, I feel like that name is in the trial.
00:58:29So this is the house where my dad and your mum
00:58:33were planning on being together.
00:58:36So dad bought this house thinking that
00:58:40you and your brothers would move in here
00:58:43and, of course, your mum.
00:58:46This would have been your home.
00:58:50And yours.
00:58:51And mine.
00:58:57Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a different
00:59:01whole, like, life that
00:59:06could have been.
00:59:11And that being, yeah, taken away
00:59:14from her and from us
00:59:16and from all of us.
00:59:19Ah.
00:59:30When you said that, you used to think,
00:59:32where are those people who were my mother's friends?
00:59:34Why aren't they helping me?
00:59:36I just, you know, that was devastating to hear that
00:59:39I knew your father's animosity
00:59:41to anyone who was from that time.
00:59:44Yeah.
00:59:44But maybe we should have gone past that.
00:59:46You know, maybe that's, you know,
00:59:50I guess we should have been brave.
00:59:50We were all looking after ourselves as well.
00:59:53I mean, we were afraid to...
00:59:56You know, I was scared to ask questions
00:59:57because I didn't know who to ask.
00:59:59And, like, it was honestly like
01:00:01it had never happened.
01:00:03But I just imagined that every time
01:00:05anywhere you went
01:00:06that, you know, people would have said,
01:00:08oh, you know...
01:00:08Well, I'm sure they did.
01:00:10I mean, that's the thing, too.
01:00:11Growing up knowing that other people...
01:00:13Well, not even knowing, but feeling
01:00:15like people were talking about you all the time.
01:00:17Did you?
01:00:18Yeah.
01:00:19You know, we could...
01:00:23I couldn't handle anything
01:00:25but the silence.
01:00:27Yeah.
01:00:28Yeah.
01:00:31I hated that everyone always...
01:00:34so careful.
01:00:35I mean, I know it was a protective thing,
01:00:37but that...
01:00:38Yeah, we...
01:00:39It's like I've already lived through the worst of it.
01:00:42This...
01:00:42The worst...
01:00:43Yeah, the worst part is not...
01:00:45speaking about it.
01:00:50So, I went back to Banksy Court,
01:00:53my old street that I grew up in.
01:00:58But I was with Helen and Lyndall,
01:01:01my two old neighbours.
01:01:06Wow.
01:01:07How do you feel coming back
01:01:08and have you been back before?
01:01:11I think I've driven past once
01:01:13in the last, you know,
01:01:1420 years or something,
01:01:15but I haven't kind of stood here.
01:01:18Yeah.
01:01:22It's hard.
01:01:25Yeah.
01:01:26I remember it being a really dark house growing up.
01:01:29I mean, I don't know if that was my state of mind or...
01:01:31But the house itself...
01:01:32No, it was a dark house.
01:01:34Yeah.
01:01:34And the curtains...
01:01:35I feel like the curtains were always closed.
01:01:38Did you notice the difference
01:01:39between, like, when my mum was there and after?
01:01:42Like, did it feel very different?
01:01:44I remember being here to look after your brothers, Catherine,
01:01:46when your dad took you as a little baby.
01:01:49And I just was sitting in the house
01:01:51just feeling the enormity of what had happened
01:01:54and how dark and, you know,
01:01:57your mum was always vibrant
01:01:59and there'd be snacks and lots of activity happening
01:02:02and giggling.
01:02:03And the sense was just that huge contrast between...
01:02:08You know, this is now and here on.
01:02:11But I think now we get to grieve that.
01:02:15Whereas back then we didn't,
01:02:17because we didn't know how.
01:02:28There she is.
01:02:29Oh, there she is.
01:02:34I feel really angry about the fact that it says passed away.
01:02:37I was just looking at that.
01:02:39That just makes me really mad,
01:02:41because he did this.
01:02:44She'll always be older than me.
01:02:47I'm 52 and I still look at Caroline as...
01:02:50Oh, no, isn't that strange?
01:02:52..is always going to be...
01:02:53Your mum read this to you when you were a baby.
01:02:57I carry your heart with me.
01:02:59I carry it in my heart.
01:03:01I am never without it.
01:03:03Anywhere I go, you go, my dear.
01:03:06And whatever is done by only me
01:03:08is your doing, my darling.
01:03:11I fear no fate,
01:03:14for you are my fate, my sweet.
01:03:16I want no world,
01:03:19for beautiful you are my world, my true.
01:03:23I carry your heart.
01:03:25I carry it in my heart.
01:03:36I love you so much.
01:03:40The three of you so, so much.
01:03:57I had been having these thoughts
01:03:58about doing a memorial for my mum.
01:04:04Make a space for all of us
01:04:06to talk a bit more about her
01:04:07and have some ritual around it.
01:04:10I felt like I needed that,
01:04:12like a grief ritual.
01:04:15And...
01:04:15..and I felt like other people did too.
01:04:23Catherine wanted to do something in Lismore
01:04:25to bring together friends and family
01:04:27to honour Caroline.
01:04:30They ended up finding this outdoor cathedral,
01:04:33which is so beautiful,
01:04:34and, yeah, really connected.
01:04:37Catherine's kind of environmental,
01:04:39spirituality and Caroline's faith.
01:04:54They're amazing.
01:04:56They're just one for each person.
01:04:59Yeah.
01:05:04So many people really
01:05:06were just waiting for me to ask.
01:05:08You know, like, really actually wanted
01:05:10the opportunity to speak about her.
01:05:12Hi.
01:05:12How are you going?
01:05:13This is my daughter.
01:05:14Nice to meet you.
01:05:15How are you?
01:05:16Good to see you.
01:05:17This is the first photo of Catherine's mother.
01:05:20So, Karen would have been around four to five.
01:05:23What's that good thing?
01:05:25Aw.
01:05:26Beautiful photo.
01:05:27Catherine did an amazing job
01:05:29of organising the memorial.
01:05:32She got all sorts of people came together.
01:05:35People that I hadn't seen for years were there.
01:05:38That made it emotional
01:05:39because we knew why we were there.
01:05:41You too.
01:05:43It was also a real time of connection
01:05:46and beauty and community.
01:05:49And it was amazing.
01:05:51And it was so cathartic
01:05:53for all of us there.
01:05:55Her emotion was so raw, so real.
01:05:58It was as if it was a week
01:06:00after something had happened.
01:06:02And I'll never forget it.
01:06:05I just wanted to welcome everyone here.
01:06:07Probably all know
01:06:08it's Caroline's birthday today.
01:06:10And I feel like maybe if she were here
01:06:13she would put on some spectacular dinner party.
01:06:15She would print out menus,
01:06:16her attention to detail,
01:06:18I have heard, was pretty spot on.
01:06:21Caroline, your death came
01:06:23before the groundswell change
01:06:25of public outrage
01:06:26at the incidents of domestic violence
01:06:28that's like our community.
01:06:30Even now, 30 years later,
01:06:32I find it difficult to speak
01:06:34without being a little bit of a lump in the throat.
01:06:36And today is pleasure for me as well.
01:06:39And I just am so happy
01:06:41and so pleased to see you,
01:06:44the embodiment of your mother
01:06:46and with the approach for life
01:06:49that I think she would be
01:06:50very, very proud of.
01:06:52I've been trying to put words
01:06:53to how I feel about my mother
01:06:54my whole life.
01:06:56The feeling of being part of her
01:06:58and her me,
01:06:59but also the absence
01:07:01of something missing.
01:07:04Happy anniversary of your birth,
01:07:06Caroline Joy.
01:07:08You have lived in my heart
01:07:10and mind and body
01:07:11since the very first moment
01:07:12I took breath.
01:07:14And you will be there
01:07:16until the last.
01:07:18And in that way,
01:07:19you have lived far longer
01:07:20than your 32 years.
01:07:22As you can see,
01:08:12That my mother died as a result of family violence,
01:08:17I didn't think of it that way for so long.
01:08:21Because there was this idea that that was just an anomaly in my dad's behaviour
01:08:27instead of an actual act of family violence
01:08:32that was also a crime against us, or should have been.
01:08:38That was a really big shift in my thinking.
01:08:47I started working on the research project at Melbourne Uni that aims to improve support
01:08:56and better understand children and young people who have been bereaved by domestic homicide.
01:09:00Acting in the best interests of the child is seen as secondary to ensuring that the accused gets a fair
01:09:07trial,
01:09:08but also how much are they supported to have agency.
01:09:11So it's not just about having a voice, it's actually that that needs to change.
01:09:14Yeah, there's a bigger issue than probably people have realised.
01:09:17Yeah, totally. Bev is somebody that I interviewed for our research project.
01:09:23I hear a gunshot, and I'm like, what the hell?
01:09:28And I see my mum being shot in the back.
01:09:30And how old were you at this point?
01:09:32I'm 11 at this point.
01:09:33I can't remember how many shots in total, but the final shot was to the head.
01:09:37I still see that image pretty much every day.
01:09:40Yeah.
01:09:41How do we heal from this experience? Do we ever really heal?
01:09:45Where do we stand and what do we have left to do here in this space?
01:09:49Because there was a lot more to be done in this space.
01:09:53And we're going to do it, Bev.
01:09:5752 women a year are dying.
01:10:01These women are mothers, grandmothers, someone's aunt, someone's friend.
01:10:06Where are the voices of those who are left behind?
01:10:11I think that the work that we're doing and what we're fighting for
01:10:16will make a difference to children and young people.
01:10:21Children are primary victims in this situation.
01:10:24Like, it's a direct crime against them as well.
01:10:28The men who commit these crimes are considered intelligent, charming.
01:10:33They might not fit the stereotype of what an abuser looks like.
01:10:36And my dad was those things.
01:10:37I don't have any relationship with him anymore.
01:10:40And I don't, I practice very deliberate non-forgiveness.
01:10:44I don't know my dad now, so I can't really speak to the person he is now.
01:10:50But the further away I get, the more clearly I can see what it's like to be in an abusive
01:10:56relationship.
01:10:57And that was an abusive relationship.
01:10:59So me wanting to come back to him, him to be proud of me and be in his favour.
01:11:05Yes, that's a child wanting that, but that's also somebody who is going through the dynamic of somebody else's push
01:11:14and pull and somebody else's control.
01:11:20I don't have him in my head anymore.
01:11:24So many of the depressive kind of episodes that I've had are around that stuff that I can't change.
01:11:33No matter how much therapy I do.
01:11:35And that's where activism comes into my life, I think.
01:11:38That's where I go, well, I can't just be doing inferior work.
01:11:44I feel like if you're going to live in this world, you have to do something.
01:11:52I love the concept of killjoys, or feminist killjoys specifically.
01:11:59Sara Ahmed, who is an amazing thinker and writer, and she coined this term.
01:12:08People who are willing to sort of not stay quiet about injustice.
01:12:15But I have been called a killjoy, and I embrace that.
01:12:20I think it's a good thing.
01:12:35I'm not here now as like some healed human.
01:12:43It's ongoing.
01:12:46It's always kind of navigating my mental health and experiences and trauma.
01:12:58Being almost 40 now and realizing that my mum only got to 32.
01:13:06For me, my 30s have just been such a huge time of understanding myself, and she didn't really get that
01:13:15time.
01:13:19I think if I could speak to my mum now, I would tell her I loved her.
01:13:29And let her know that my life is like so full.
01:13:44I don't just have to tolerate being sort of okay.
01:13:52You know I'm actually allowed to feel good.
01:13:59I'm in a new place where I feel like I might actually live for a while.
01:14:02I mean, who knows? Who knows what will happen?
01:14:06Who knows what matters so I know, and how.
01:14:17I really want to see the faults of someone.
01:14:20But I will just let them take longer flour but.
01:14:21And then I rais siento them.
01:14:25I think that is amazing.
01:14:25And then I hope that you don't need to share well.
01:14:27I'll be there for a while and understand them.
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