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"We try to show the sides of the struggle."
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00:00Hi, this is Mariah Gullow from The Hollywood Reporter, and I'm here with Our Lady J, writer
00:04for Transparent from Amazon.
00:07How's it going?
00:07Hi, thank you so much for coming here today.
00:10Thanks for having me.
00:11We're very excited.
00:12We have interviewed quite a few people from Transparent, an award-winning show, obviously.
00:18We've had Amy Landecker, we've had Jill Soloway, we've had Kathryn Kahn, so...
00:22Oh, those are my family.
00:23Yeah, so let's, I don't know, let's just get everything out of the way now, and let's
00:30talk a little bit, like, can you tell me anything about season four, because there's a lot of
00:34people anticipating when Transparent will be out.
00:37It should be coming out in September, there's not a hard date yet, but September's what we're
00:41aiming for.
00:42And season four is full of shenanigans, once again, the Fevermans are misbehaving, although
00:49instead of misbehaving in Los Angeles, they're misbehaving in Israel.
00:54So we're going global with the show, with politics, it's really, really political this
00:59season.
00:59Oh, wonderful.
01:00Frighteningly so.
01:01I know everything about global politics that I never really thought I would need to know.
01:06You had to learn a lot.
01:07I had to learn a lot, read a lot of books on Israel and Palestine and everything that's
01:12happening over there.
01:13Oh, wow.
01:13So the Fevermans are also going to be learning about everything, and hopefully the rest of the
01:18world will be as well.
01:18Did you spend any time on set, or were they filming mostly in Israel this year?
01:24No, no, we filmed mostly in Los Angeles.
01:27Oh.
01:27There's a lot of political discussion about BDS and the boycott of Israel, and also because
01:34our family is a Jewish family, we wanted to address what is the boycott, like why are we
01:40boycotting the state of Israel, why is their community boycotting the state of Israel.
01:45And so we wanted to be sensitive around that, but also not choose one side.
01:50Like the show, I think, we try to do a good job at not having any villains, any characters
01:55that are necessarily good or bad.
01:57Right.
01:57We try to show the sides of the struggle.
02:01And so we did that this season, and hopefully we did that with the production of it as well.
02:06Oh, nice.
02:06So yeah, there was a little bit of that in previous seasons as well.
02:09There's definitely a lot of...
02:10There was a little discussion in season three.
02:12Yeah.
02:12About a coffee pot, I believe.
02:13Yes.
02:14An espresso maker.
02:15Yes.
02:15That's right.
02:16That's right.
02:17That's right.
02:18So can you talk a little bit about how you became a writer for Transparent?
02:22Because you started off in season one as an actress.
02:25No, I auditioned.
02:26Oh, you auditioned for season one.
02:27And I failed.
02:27Horribly.
02:28Oh, no.
02:29Alexandra Billings got the part, because she's everything.
02:32Oh, right.
02:32You auditioned for Davina.
02:34Yeah.
02:34She's an old friend of mine.
02:36And so, yeah, I auditioned for Davina, and I was in this workshop and I ended up making it
02:41the final callback and I did a lot of improvising with Jeffrey Tambor, which was really fun.
02:46There was a scene where we went off the rails with the scene.
02:49And I just felt like the show was something that I was so attached to, even before I saw
02:54the pilot.
02:55And then the pilot came out, the first season came out, and I decided...
03:00I did a spell, actually.
03:02I did a spell with Jill Soloway.
03:05I haven't told Jill this.
03:06Sorry, Jill.
03:07Put a little spell on you.
03:10And then I got involved as a writer.
03:13She asked if I had written anything.
03:15I sent her a short story.
03:17She taught me how to write for television in a week.
03:20She held this workshop with six other trans women and taught us all how to write for TV.
03:25And then afterwards asked if I would join the staff.
03:28That's amazing.
03:29Which, of course, I said yes to it.
03:31You said yes.
03:31I jumped up and down.
03:32You were like, that fulfills the requirement of the spell.
03:35Yes, exactly.
03:36I can blow out that candle now.
03:39What was the most challenging thing about making the jump from writing as an essay or novelist
03:48to going to dialogue?
03:50Well, actually, I was a musician.
03:51I was writing for...
03:52You were writing lyrics.
03:53...musical theater.
03:54I was writing songs.
03:55I was touring.
03:56Actually, I was touring with Sia and I had to quit touring with Sia for Transparent.
04:01So it was like one amazing gig to another amazing gig.
04:05But I feel like as a musician, there's so much that you can say emotionally and spiritually,
04:11but you can't really tell a narrative that is educational.
04:16And it's harder to tell stories about identity through music.
04:21And what I was noticing in the music world were people...
04:24I would go into a room, you know, as a pianist at American Ballet Theater, and they were always
04:29really wonderful with my transition.
04:30But a few other places didn't really get what I was doing with my gender.
04:35And so I felt the need to explain myself and to educate.
04:39And unfortunately, I lost a lot of jobs because people just didn't understand what I was.
04:44And this was before trans was a national conversation.
04:49And so I had to make identity part of my art making.
04:54And with writing, especially with television, there's just a lot more opportunity to inform
04:59and have a discussion around identity.
05:02And it's what's needed right now.
05:04Eventually, it'd be so nice if I could make a living playing Debussy or, you know,
05:08something that I don't need to be so literal about.
05:11But right now, it's a matter of survival, not for myself, but for the community as well.
05:17Right.
05:17And there's, you know, there's a lot of dialogue that involves, you know, just...
05:21It's explanatory, but it's done in a very natural way.
05:25And one of the things that I love about the Pfeffermans is that they, you know,
05:31speak over each other in a way that's almost musical.
05:33Like, it almost feels like that build to, like, a musical when people are just kind of speaking...
05:41It becomes a cacophony.
05:43Right, right.
05:43The cadence.
05:45The cadences all echo each other because I feel like they all have the same drive in a way.
05:50Like, I mean, they are a bit narcissistic in the way they go about doing things,
05:55but they really are a family that love each other.
05:59Mm-hmm.
05:59And they try to get beyond themselves even though they have a hard time doing it.
06:04And so I guess what happens with that is that we write the script and then Jill tells everyone to
06:11throw away the scripts after two takes.
06:13And so they improvise and they improvise and that's where that cadence and that rhythm comes from.
06:19And then eventually they get back on scripts.
06:21Usually, by the end of the day, we have a lot of what was there in the first place.
06:28So that's the layers all come from that work.
06:31Oh.
06:32And then going back to season three, what were some of the, like, bright spots in the season for you,
06:39like, just as far as your writing?
06:41Well, we had broken all the outlines together as a group.
06:44So there were eight writers and so then the day came and we were assigned our scripts and there was
06:52a flashback episode.
06:53And the content for the flashback episode was the story of my childhood.
06:59And it was a story of a trans childhood that I had never seen before and something that I really
07:04wanted to tell.
07:05And so when Jill said that that was going to be my script to write, to take it from the
07:10outline to a full script, I was just so overwhelmed.
07:16I was overjoyed, but also I had, like, it felt like a really great responsibility to get it right.
07:22Because this is something that hasn't been told on TV before.
07:26And so the whole process was such a joy.
07:30Not just because it was so personal and the content was reflective of an actual authentic experience,
07:36but also because the episode is a bubble episode.
07:39It takes place in the past, so there aren't any current characters in it.
07:44And it was, it felt like a little mini-movie.
07:46I got to write a little mini-movie last season.
07:49And so I'm really proud of it.
07:51I want to do it again.
07:53And do you, I mean, do you prefer the personal stories or the stories that come from your own experience?
08:01It's kind of interesting because it was a story that was put into historical context.
08:05So you had, like, this personal dialogue.
08:09It's coming from your own experience.
08:11But then you had to do a little bit of research about the past.
08:14Right.
08:14So you're kind of combining both personal experience and doing some research to, you know, like, how did that work
08:21out?
08:21Like, did you have to do a lot of kind of research on?
08:24Yeah, I did a lot of research on the Cold War and what was happening in Los Angeles around the
08:29Cold War,
08:29and what was happening in the Jewish community and communities of color.
08:32And I found that that story was reflected in my own childhood.
08:38I grew up in an Amish community, and it was very religious.
08:43And there was always this element of paranoia.
08:46And there were, everyone had their secret hiding space.
08:48And so Moore's hiding space was the bunker.
08:51My hiding space was the barn.
08:52So, you know, I would cross-dress.
08:55I hate that word.
08:56But, like, I would dress, like, female in the barn.
08:58And it was, like, my private place where I would dance around.
09:02And so I put that into Maura's story.
09:04And Jill's parent, actually, Carrie, who Maura is based on, cross-dressed in the bunker.
09:10And World War II, they grew up in England.
09:13And so she would dress in the bunker.
09:16So that's from her parents' story.
09:19Amazing.
09:20Is there anything that you found challenging about season three?
09:25Or is there any difficulty?
09:27Or is there a certain character that's harder to write for?
09:33I mean, everything feels challenging when we're in it.
09:36We just wrapped, like, a month ago.
09:38So a month ago I felt, like, overwhelmed by everything.
09:41And now that I've had a minute to breathe, I'm like, oh, that was easy.
09:44I'm ready to do that again.
09:47So, like, I don't know.
09:48It's a hard show to write.
09:51We're really pushed to find the truth.
09:55And any time I think you're searching for the truth, that's the greatest challenge.
09:59Because we don't want to recycle stories we've already heard before.
10:03So finding the nuance in all these characters is really challenging.
10:09I also find any time that there's business talk with Josh and his, like, the music business,
10:15I'm like, I check out.
10:17I'm like, I can't write this scene.
10:18What am I supposed to write about?
10:21I bring in one of the, like, two, well, we have one straight male writer in the room.
10:28I'm like, knock, knock, Ethan, can you help me with this scene?
10:32You know, what is the writer's room like?
10:34Are you, do you do retreats?
10:37Yeah.
10:37My first day of writing for season two, actually, we went on a writer's retreat in Santa Barbara.
10:44And we had a shaman come in.
10:47And the shaman, you know, brought the spirits of the pfeffermen and the pfeffermens around.
10:53And we all hyperventilated in a sweat lodge.
10:56And it wasn't a sweat lodge.
10:58It was like a, what are those round tents called?
11:01Oh, like a yurt?
11:02A yurt.
11:03We hyperventilated in a yurt together and cried and saw the pfeffermens come down from outer space.
11:09That's wonderful.
11:11So you had like a real, you had like a really good connection with everybody.
11:16Yeah.
11:16Yeah.
11:17It's, we write from an emotional and a spiritual place.
11:20And so.
11:21Does that include a lot of arguments too?
11:24When people are so close?
11:25We argue over lunch every day.
11:28Lunch.
11:28Every single day we argue about lunch.
11:30That can be counted on.
11:33So what's your side of the argument?
11:35Do you have any preferences?
11:35I am pescatarian, so like I don't do meat except fish.
11:40You have some restrictions.
11:41And I'm generally a very healthy eater.
11:45And there are many days where people just want meatball subs.
11:49And those are the days that we go.
11:51I'm not going to see eye to eye today.
11:53Can you tell me a little bit what it's like working with Jill?
11:57Jill's amazing.
11:58Well, first of all, Jill has changed my life.
12:00Yeah.
12:01I was a musician.
12:04And it's a hard life being a musician.
12:06You know, it's gig to gig to gig.
12:07And she really gave me this tool.
12:10Not just for transparent, but something that I can do for any show in the future.
12:14I feel equipped to write on anything right now.
12:18She opened the holy book of television writing and had me study it and followed her.
12:26So, first of all, I'm just really grateful for her vision and her belief in me.
12:32And to work with, she's just so much fun.
12:35Like every time she's in the room, she cracks crazy jokes that make me laugh really hard.
12:43And make me cry and pee my pants sometimes.
12:46So, we have a good time.
12:47That's beautiful.
12:50So, there's also, like you said, you've worked with Sia before.
12:54And you've also worked with RuPaul, who we've also had on quite a few times.
12:58I have RuPaul.
12:59Yeah.
13:00Can you just give like a one word or one phrase descriptor of both those talented people?
13:05One word or one phrase?
13:07RuPaul, I mean charisma, uniqueness, nerve, and talent.
13:11There you go.
13:12That's what describe her.
13:14Absolutely.
13:16And Sia, kooky.
13:19She is so kooky.
13:21Like, always giggling, always smiling, always laughing.
13:26We performed at the Hollywood Bowl and there was like this grand reveal.
13:31We were on this turntable.
13:33And we turned around and I'm standing at the piano and she's facing the back,
13:37because she wasn't facing the audience.
13:39And there was a delay for like two minutes.
13:43We had to stand there.
13:44And she just looked over at me and made like the funniest faces.
13:47I was like crossing her eyes and sticking her tongue out.
13:50And I'm like trying not to laugh, because you can actually see my face.
13:53She's kooky.
13:55Yeah.
13:56One thing that a lot of people don't realize about Sia, because she has that persona,
14:01is that off camera she's like quite loud and vivacious and just fills up the entire room.
14:06She is.
14:06Yes, she does.
14:09Can we talk a little bit about how transgender people have been portrayed in film in the past?
14:14Like how, what was, what did you see before you started writing on Transparent?
14:20Well the only time I ever saw trans people were as either villains or victims.
14:28They were, they were never the protagonist.
14:31They never were the subject.
14:35And so, most trans people on TV were sex workers and they were like murdered sex workers on Law and
14:43Order.
14:45And so there really weren't stories being told at all about how we are just, I hate the word normal.
14:52I hate, I love, I love like letting my freak flag fly and I love being queer.
14:57But like how we're just normal people, you know, we're human beings at the end of the day.
15:02And that was never really told and I always felt alone, like I never really, I thought well, you know,
15:10I'll be a weird artist,
15:11but am I ever going to really participate in society and have a family and have a partner and kids
15:18and all these things that are very human wants and needs.
15:23And that was never on TV and I think that's the reason I never felt like I could have that.
15:27And now that it's becoming more and more of a thing, especially with Transparent and Orange is the New Black
15:31and shows that are just really normalizing the trans experience,
15:36I feel like the future hopefully has another viewpoint of what they can be and what they can do.
15:43Yeah. And like, because the news can sometimes be so awful about what's happening in the world.
15:52What's happening in the news? I don't know. I turned it off a while ago.
15:56Yeah, exactly. But, you know, you find yourself writing for what's happening now and your own personal experience,
16:07but how do you not fall into that, the tropes? You know, how do you keep yourself out of the
16:14victim-filling place?
16:16Because I know it's, you know, you're also creating television, must-see TV, you know, so, you know,
16:22how do you keep from falling into that?
16:24I think I watch out for anger, really. Anger is really great to drive you and to inspire you,
16:33but I, at the end of the day, I can never write from a place of anger. I really have
16:39to write from a place of empathy.
16:41And if I'm, like, spinning in my, like, angry zone, I'm just feeding into the system that I don't believe
16:48in in the first place.
16:49You know, I believe in a loving world, I believe in justice, and I believe in humanity.
16:56And a lot of what's spinning in the news cycle is just anger, and it's, and it's not productive at
17:02the end of the day.
17:03It's, again, it's good to drive, to drive you whenever you notice that someone is being treated unfairly
17:10or a group of people are being marginalized or demonized, but as a writer, it's not some place that I
17:17can write from,
17:18because then I end up vilifying another group of people, and, you know, and I end up demonizing people.
17:26Instead of allowing us to see the human experience and allowing us to see, well, this is why someone believes
17:32this way.
17:33How can I change their mind? And I'm never going to change anyone's mind by making them look like the
17:38bad guy.
17:39Right. Right. That's true.
17:42So where do you, would you like to see television in the next five years?
17:45This is a question that I also asked Jill.
17:47Oh. Virtual reality. I love virtual reality.
17:51Oh, yeah?
17:51I have, like, a little virtual reality set at home. I love VR. Except I get a headache.
17:56Yeah.
17:56I need to fix that. I can go, like, three minutes.
18:01I was floating in the space, listening to Spotify.
18:04It is interesting how when you put on that headset, you really have to be in a safe place.
18:09Yeah.
18:09Because you're walking around blind.
18:11Oh, totally.
18:12And, you know, in virtual reality, they tell you when you're stepping too close to a wall or, you know,
18:17when...
18:17Right.
18:18But you have to really trust the place that you're in.
18:21Oh, yeah. It's terrifying. I, like, lock my doors, like, six times before I do it.
18:25I'm like, what if someone comes in here and, like, murders me? I would never know because I'm in, like,
18:31outer space right now.
18:32That sounds like a good horror movie.
18:34Exactly.
18:36Someone's just watching me. I was like, looking around.
18:40So you'd be interested in writing for a new virtual reality series?
18:44Most definitely, yeah. I'm actually working on something right now.
18:47Oh, wonderful.
18:48A little secret project.
18:49And do you interact with people online in virtual reality? Are you talking to people?
18:54I don't, no, I haven't.
18:55You're not going into the net.
18:57No, I haven't done that yet. A little, that's the next level.
19:01Yeah.
19:02Right now, I like exploring it by myself.
19:04Uh-huh.
19:05A friend of mine is a virtual reality producer, so I go to a studio and play with the new
19:09technology all the time.
19:10Do you have a good avatar?
19:13I don't have an avatar.
19:14Oh, you have an avatar.
19:14I am my avatar.
19:18I know some of those lucky celebrities get to customize their avatars, you know.
19:22Right.
19:23No, I'm just, I'm customizing this avatar day by day.
19:27Absolutely.
19:31A question to wrap up on.
19:33What's the most important thing you want to get across with your art through the transgender experience?
19:39And then, and I like that you were saying you're going to move past that as well, so let's add
19:45that to it.
19:46You know, what would you like to, how would you like your art to move forward?
19:52Besides virtual reality, of course.
19:53Well, I feel like there's still so many stories that need to be told about the trans experience that haven't
19:59been told yet.
19:59And I'm writing a pilot about my own upbringing right now.
20:04And it's really important for those stories to get out before I feel like I can work on, you know,
20:12I can go write for another show, you know, be staffed on another show.
20:16So I just really, I want to excavate all of the truths about what it's like to grow up trans
20:26and what it's like to feel otherized and to feel like my body doesn't match with my gender.
20:32And until all of the negative stories that have been told about trans people are outweighed by the positive stories,
20:42then I'm going to continue doing that.
20:45And then afterwards, I'll write a romantic comedy, you know, or a horror movie.
20:52Well, thank you so much. We wish you luck on all your endeavors.
20:55Our Lady J. The show is transparent. It's on Amazon and it's coming out in the fall.
21:01So thank you so much.
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