- 1 day ago
Your salary may be increasing—but will it be enough?
As inflation continues to affect the cost of everyday essentials, the debate over wage increases remains at the center of public discussion. What do workers stand to gain, and what could it mean for businesses and the broader economy?
Join Beyond the Headlines as we discuss the realities behind the numbers with Kyle Enero, President of BIEN-Cebu.
Look Deeper. Think Better.
As inflation continues to affect the cost of everyday essentials, the debate over wage increases remains at the center of public discussion. What do workers stand to gain, and what could it mean for businesses and the broader economy?
Join Beyond the Headlines as we discuss the realities behind the numbers with Kyle Enero, President of BIEN-Cebu.
Look Deeper. Think Better.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Bold, rich, pulled just right.
00:05Then comes the milk, steamed smooth, creamy, and balanced.
00:11The perfect latte is not brushed, it is crafted, one cup at a time.
00:17Your perfect latte is ready.
00:20Coffee first, then everything else.
00:24Good afternoon, welcome to Beyond the Headlines.
00:26I'm DJ Moises, and today's conversation is brought to us by our friends at Coffee First.
00:33The headlines are straightforward.
00:36A labor group representing workers in the ITBPM industry is seeking a 1,200 daily minimum wage for entry-level
00:45employees in Central Visayas.
00:48For many workers, it is a question of keeping up with the rising cost of living.
00:52For employers, it is a question of remaining globally competitive in an industry where clients can choose to invest in
01:00countries like India, Vietnam, Egypt, or South Africa.
01:05This afternoon, we look deeper and think better.
01:08Joining us today is Bien Cebu President Kyle Enero.
01:13Hi Kyle, welcome to Beyond the Headlines.
01:15Hello, good afternoon DJ, and thank you as well to Sunstar for having Bien over this afternoon.
01:23And we're also grateful that you are here because this is a good conversation that hopefully will also shed better
01:29light as far as our viewers are concerned regarding the possible change in the minimum wage.
01:36But before we start, can you walk us through about what Bien is and your advocacy?
01:48So, Bien means BPO Industry Employees Network.
01:52We were founded in 2012, and we became a Dole Registered Workers Association in 2013, and our Cebu chapter was
02:02established in 2014.
02:03So, as a whole, we've been existing for 13 years, and throughout that period, we've been known for advocating BPO
02:12workers' rights and welfare, whether that be in terms of earning a livable salary, security of tenure, safe and healthy
02:20workplaces, and of course, the exercise of our democratic rights to freedom of association.
02:27And then, just for our viewers also to see the structure, because I also see articles that are from Davao,
02:39and I also see articles that are also from Luzon.
02:42So, can you explain the structure in the Philippines, and where does Central Visayas belong?
02:50So, as I mentioned earlier, Bien is a national workers' association of BPO employees.
02:56So, we have chapters across the Philippines from Luzon to Mindanao, and specific in Central Visayas, the chapter here is
03:05mainly based in Cebu.
03:07So, that's why we bring up issues from the National Capital Region down to the corner of Mindanao.
03:16So, and then, in terms of membership, can you even just estimate how big is the organization?
03:26So, we have a recorded of a national membership of around 3,000 to 5,000 members.
03:33And how can members join the organization?
03:38Well, they can just reach out to me personally or through our Facebook page and inquire about how to join.
03:43Ah, okay. So, that means you're also leading the Philippines.
03:46Come again?
03:47You're also leading the Philippines.
03:49I'm also the concurrent vice president for Visayas of Bien.
03:53Ah, okay. No, but for example, for members in Mindanao or even Luzon, that's the same methodology also.
03:59Yes, they can just reach out to us.
04:01Reach out to us, yes.
04:02Okay. Now, the other thing also is, if, like for example, if we have viewers who are interested to join,
04:09do they pay a membership fee or registration fee?
04:13It's just, we have an annual membership fee.
04:16This is what helps sustain the organization in its campaigns and advocacies.
04:21And speaking of campaigns and advocacies, when we say Nga Central Visayas, this covers both Cebu and Bohol.
04:29We try to include Bohol as much as possible, but it's mainly in Cebu.
04:33Ah, okay. No, because I'm referring now to the cost that Bien is advocating, which is the increase of the
04:41minimum wage for ITBPM workers to 1,200.
04:46Correct me if I'm wrong. This translates to 36,000 monthly.
04:51Correct. If we are to, here's how we have to break it down.
04:57There are two ways how a worker is paid in the Philippines, either daily or monthly.
05:02Those daily paid earners are, no work, no pay is strictly applied to their, how they are paid.
05:11Monthly paid earners, like BPO workers, we are paid every day of the week.
05:19So that's seven times, seven days in a week times how many weeks in a year, that would be the
05:26total earnings we should be having.
05:29So if to compute the 1,200 proposal we are raising, that would, in fact, it would be 36,500.
05:39Okay.
05:40So that would be the push we are advocating for in terms of monthly paid earners like BPO workers.
05:48So we're saying now for those who are paid daily, it's 1,200.
05:53And if those who are paid monthly, that's 36,500.
05:58Yes.
05:59Now the reason why I ask about the scope, because Central Visayas, although you said that it's largely Cebu, but
06:06from what I read from the papers, it's actually Central Visayas.
06:10So is Bohol also included with this one?
06:13If the proposal is accepted, then workers in Bohol will also benefit.
06:19Okay.
06:19Now that said, the other curious question also is, how did you arrive to the 1,200?
06:29All right.
06:29So in the labor movement, we have been rethinking over and over how much the increase we should be demanding
06:38from government.
06:39With the current minimum wage set up we have.
06:42So with the help of independent research think tanks, we came up that on a national level, what could be
06:50considered as a livable standard of pay would be 1,200 daily.
06:55That takes into consideration the current prices of goods under the base of the consumer price index.
07:04And then there's a calculation used by the National Wages and Productivity Commission, how they determine what could be livable
07:11wages.
07:12So using that formula that they have, it would come up with a figure.
07:17In fact, nationally, it's 1,200.
07:19But strictly speaking, with the inflation rate in the Central Visayas, it would be around 1,400.
07:25So it takes serious consideration of the current prices of goods, unlike the current minimum wage set up that is
07:31devoid of that consideration.
07:33So we are saying that this is based on a study that's saying that the livable standard of living would
07:46require a wage of 1,200.
07:49Yes.
07:49And I also capture when you say that it's not even including just yet Central Visayas, which is for the
07:57past months now have been having inflation higher than the national rate.
08:03Correct.
08:04That's what you are saying.
08:05But on the flip side also, did you also consider that that's a livable standard, but there are different types
08:16of work also that would require pay higher than that and also pay lower than that?
08:24We understand that kind of sentiment because specific to our industry, skill set is one determining factor in how much
08:31a BPO worker would be paid.
08:33And now, our position in BN is clear.
08:38Workers that have more to offer to the company should be paid more, but the minimum should be livable.
08:45No matter the type of work you contribute to a company, you have to be paid a dignified or in
08:51other words, a livable standard of pay.
08:53Otherwise, we're just exploiting workers.
08:56So we have to respect the right of a Filipino worker to a livable standard.
09:02And in fact, that is clearly stipulated in our constitution.
09:06Now, the other thing also, just a clarification, because even with the current state, and maybe you can correct me
09:14if I'm wrong,
09:14because you have more conversations also with employees on the ground.
09:19But correct me if I'm wrong, generally, even in the absence of the change in wage, the BPO workers are
09:29paid usually higher than other industries.
09:36Okay, so this is where my presentation comes in because we want to debunk the idea that we are highly
09:46paid.
09:48So to get an understanding of it, the structure in which we are compensated is what we call in BN
09:55as a package system.
09:57The package system is composed of two things.
10:00First, the basic pay, meaning the guaranteed pay that we will receive in a month.
10:05And then you have the incentives and bonuses.
10:09The incentives and bonuses are those that the company can provide on top of your base pay and the allowances
10:16that a foreign client can pay for you as well.
10:18However, we consider that as a variable pay because that is subject to metrics based on performances, attendance, and client
10:27requirements.
10:28Taking that all together, you would have a total monthly package.
10:32Now, as I've mentioned earlier, between the two, only the base pay is guaranteed that we will receive.
10:38And it determines how much the labor standards benefits we will receive.
10:45For example, night differential pay, overtime pay, holiday pay, 13-month pay.
10:50So if it's very low, then we will also be receiving low value in terms of overtime and etc.
10:57So this is how we are compensated.
10:59So that's why, on our part, it's very crucial that the entry-level salary we receive, in other words, the
11:06base pay, if it is raised to a livable standard at the minimum, it will be, no matter whether we
11:14will be receiving our incentives or bonuses, it's guaranteed that we can live a dignified life even with just the
11:20base pay.
11:20And, yeah, maybe we should show that not to, yeah, because I think that's a good transparency also and piece
11:30of conversation.
11:31My first question when it comes to that, but it's because majority of the, by the way, for the education
11:38of our viewers, it's no longer BPO currently.
11:41It's already ITBPM because we're more than voice or call centers.
11:47So there are already a lot of jobs also.
11:49Higher value work, that's already in the industry.
11:51But anyway, Siggy, for the context of our conversation today, I'll just use the word BPO.
11:57Now, majority of the BPO workers also, they work in the evening.
12:01So statutory-wise, their base pay is also augmented by night differential.
12:11So if, and that's statutory, so meaning even if their base pay is, for example, $13,000, there's already an
12:19increment of $10,000 given if they work on the night shift.
12:24Yes, that is true.
12:26However, how much you will earn from your night differential pay is subject to how much is your base pay.
12:35Correct.
12:35So it's still dependent on how much you will be paid in terms of your basic salary.
12:39So that's why on our end, when we discuss about how much should a BPO worker be paid,
12:47because, again, we have, this is from the Bureau of Working Conditions, how monthly paid employees should be paid.
12:55Para makita, claro.
12:57Sige.
12:57How much they should be paid in a month.
13:00Meaning to say, as I've mentioned earlier, that it should be 365 days in a year.
13:06Now, if we take that into consideration, if we use the minimum wage in Central Visayas, which is at 540
13:14pesos daily, multiplied by 365 days in a year,
13:20divided by 12, which is the total number of months in a year, you would get the minimum monthly salary
13:28or pay of a monthly paid employee.
13:32It should be no less than 16,425 pesos.
13:36However, we still receive reports of colleagues in the industry receiving as low as only $13,000 in terms of
13:43base pay.
13:44That is not livable and, in fact, not within the minimum standard established in our existing minimum wage rates.
13:52Okay.
13:53Now, I think the conversation now can be divided into two categories.
14:02Number one, the basic, if companies are paying less than the minimum wage, then there's no conversation around it.
14:11That should be illegal.
14:12Correct.
14:13Okay.
14:14So, that piece, I think it's a generally accepted, although I'm saddened, if companies don't comply to that, I'm saddened.
14:23But that's already a generally accepted principle, that the minimum wage earners should be paid according to the minimum wage.
14:34But now, let's go into the conversation specific to the 1,200.
14:38Because I think that's the part that is unclear as we speak.
14:43That's why, correct me if I'm wrong, there was a consultation that transpired yesterday.
14:48Yes.
14:48Because everybody accepts the 540, the legal, but even the legal ones, they also have, they want to understand the
14:571,200.
14:58So, sige, let's go to the 1,200 na lang yun, specifically.
15:03Now, the other piece also that, and correct me if I'm wrong, okay, this is also a good calibration of
15:09the general practice.
15:10Because now, at least from what you're saying, we know that there are companies who are paying less.
15:14Yes, exactly.
15:15So, that's, yeah.
15:18Okay, now, that said, let's move to the other piece, but generally, it's also accepted in the industry.
15:25And you can correct me if companies still practice this, that because employees, they work on country holidays that they
15:38are serving.
15:38So, that means when it's a Philippine holiday, they are, they are still obliged to work, but they are paid
15:48according to the overtime rate specific to that holiday.
15:53That's true, no?
15:54Because that's not the story.
15:55That's, they will be paid the holiday pay.
15:58Okay.
15:59Illegal sa da.
16:00Yes, exactly.
16:01Now, the other piece also, which is kind of what makes the industry supposedly different from the others, it's because
16:10on an event that there is a national holiday of the country that you are serving.
16:16So, for example, it's a U.S. holiday, you are not obliged to work.
16:21It's a country holiday man.
16:23That depends on the nature of the account you're working with.
16:27Yes, but, but, oh yeah, but, but generally, if work does not require.
16:32In the country.
16:34Yes, in the country, then you're not obliged to work.
16:36There are people, no?
16:38But, you are still paid.
16:40Even if you work or you do not work.
16:43Generally, that's a practice of BPO.
16:45So, correct me if I'm wrong if that has already changed.
16:48That should be how it's done.
16:50Correct.
16:50Because, as I've mentioned, we must be considered as monthly paid employees.
16:55Because our contracts provide us with a monthly package.
16:59So, how do you compute a monthly package if the base pay is based off a daily rate?
17:05So, meaning to say, whether we work or not, we have to be paid every single day of the week.
17:14And, unfortunately, on our continuous study of the situation on the ground, what our colleagues are experiencing,
17:22there are still companies paying us five days in a week when it should be seven days in a week.
17:27Which is, if we don't show up to work, then we don't get paid.
17:30As if we're daily paid earners.
17:33But, I think, remind me about that if I'll miss that point.
17:37But, just to close on the section also that I just brought up.
17:42It's more of an education also for those who are not in the BPO industry.
17:47Because, the reason why the BPO workers are also viewed, among the many reasons, as heroes,
17:53it's because they work on Philippine holidays.
17:57Yes.
17:57Unlike if you work in a bank, for example, you don't work on a holiday.
18:01Yes.
18:01So, to compensate for the heroism, so that's why they're paid on the rate specific to the holiday.
18:10But, what not many also who has an appreciation for support that are related to bank holidays also in the
18:19countries that they serve.
18:21If it's a U.S. holiday, even if they work or they don't, they're actually paid.
18:29So, if it's a country holiday, you don't work, but you're paid.
18:33Yes.
18:34On a Philippine holiday, you work, but you're compensated also according to holiday pay.
18:39I hope our viewers have captured that.
18:42That's why traditionally, it would, and plus the night differential, because I think 70 or 80% of BPO people
18:49work in the evening.
18:50So, if you put in the holiday pays, and if you put in the night differential, if BPO's are paying
19:00their employees right,
19:02they would always land at the pay higher than bank tellers.
19:06Yes.
19:08So, at least calibrated.
19:10That's still the actual situation now.
19:13Yes.
19:14Oh, Sidia.
19:14You want to say something?
19:15So, that is true, but the conversation here, the conversation that we want to bring to light is more of,
19:26especially with the discussions,
19:29I was personally involved in the consultation yesterday with the Regional Wage Board,
19:34and hearing from management representatives, even if they're not technically from the BPO industry,
19:41but the mindset of employers, especially the bigger ones, it's that their idea is they would rather increase our allowances
19:49or incentives rather than increase our base pay.
19:53And again, as I've presented earlier, allowances or incentives are subject to certain requirements and can be withheld or not
20:01granted at all in the specific amount stated in your agreement with your employer.
20:05So, that's why it's crucial for us that the base pay must be to a livable standard.
20:10And then, by the way, because this is a conversation also, correct me if I'm wrong, feel free.
20:16What if employees will just have to, before they sign up to a company, first they have to make sure,
20:23because it's declared in the contract.
20:26Yes.
20:26So, first they have to make sure that they're paid according to the minimum wage.
20:30Yes.
20:30It should have been in the contract.
20:32So, I'm also surprised why there are employees who would sign in a contract that's not legal to begin with.
20:38Then, the minimum conversation wouldn't have been happening now.
20:41Correct.
20:42If they refuse to sign.
20:43So, two things.
20:45First, it's hard to find a job in the Philippines.
20:47So, we cannot blame our colleagues in the industry for accepting whatever pay they're going to accept because they need
20:55it to sustain themselves and their families.
20:57Second, it's because of this dubious package system that if you look at it in hindsight, oh, the cookie cooks
21:05will do.
21:05But, if you really break it down, specifically in your base pay, it's going to be done.
21:11But, actually, in the contract, there's the base pay, there are the allowances.
21:16Yes.
21:16So, they will really see that in the onset that I think this is not legal.
21:21Correct.
21:22However, it's not emphasized enough that it's going to bloat the figure.
21:27No, it's really base pay.
21:29Yes, it's base pay.
21:30Correct.
21:30Pero, syempre, we can't blame our colleagues in the industry for accepting whatever offer the company will provide if maupon
21:37na ang ihatag niya as a package as a whole.
21:40Again, first, they need a job.
21:42Second, wala sila'y ma- like, okay, I'm going to make do with what I have right now.
21:48Kay lain man po, di man may ka-question an na sa employer on the onset, yung atagang may job
21:52offer.
21:53Why don't night sign it and report?
21:57Rather than sign it and then report.
22:00That would be ideal.
22:02In fact, I would prefer it that way.
22:05But knowing how labor arbitration is in the Philippines, it's a very, very, very long process that a worker would
22:15rather just move on with his life rather than attaining what would be, to us, justice.
22:20And I think that we cannot settle that in a conversation as short as today.
22:25But this is for the viewers also.
22:27And you can also have your piece also about what I will say.
22:31Di ba there's a piece na walang maloloko kung walang magpapaloko?
22:37And walang maloloko kung walang nagloloko.
22:42So meaning, it's both sides.
22:44The employers should not do something illegal.
22:48But I think those who are looking for a job should not also put themselves in a situation that's not
22:55legal.
22:56I think that's how we can solve the problem.
22:58Both employees and employers should do things legally.
23:04I would agree to that.
23:06But it's also not mutually exclusive when we say that the standards in which workers must be compensated should be,
23:14again, towards a livable standard.
23:16So right now, what we are seeing, specific to our industry at least, that we're being low-balled.
23:24I have data here that for everyone's information, the industry is growing in terms of revenues.
23:35Last year, the IT and Business Process Association of the Philippines, IBPAP in short, said that the industry garnered a
23:49revenue of US$40 billion.
23:53And that's built on the backs of workers.
23:55So, but despite a growing industry, we are seeing not just stagnating wages, but declining from 2005 until 2020 of
24:08the top BPO companies where their salaries are available online.
24:15Katong pinakaubos nga rates sa USA company sa una, mauna ang pinakadaku ka ron.
24:23So, it's not keeping up with the growth of the industry, the rising standard of cost of living, para sa
24:33mga workers.
24:34So, dili na siya, commensurate ba, sa kung saan kahimtang karamiin.
24:38And by the way, you can continue to bring that up, no?
24:41Because there are companies, no, no, no.
24:44Ipakita na to, no?
24:45There are companies raba that are named, no?
24:48So, I hope the information is actually correct.
24:54And the second also is if companies are named here and then you don't agree to this, then feel free
25:02also to participate in the conversation.
25:05But what the chart is actually telling me, correct me if I'm wrong, is all of these companies, even if
25:13through the years, instead na nagkasaka, nagkanaog ang compensation.
25:18That's what you're saying, no?
25:20And very drastic for the three except one.
25:23The other one is, but the others were really drastic decreases, no?
25:28That's what we're saying.
25:29So, katulang ha, so for companies also that are, kanang, quoted here, if the information is incorrect as presented by
25:37BN, then you can also participate in the conversation.
25:42Sige.
25:42So, on that piece then, kanang, to get that part, the other nuance also, and correct me if I'm wrong,
25:51if that's something that's also common on the ground, through the years, the array of services that's offered by the
26:00ITBPM industry has already evolved.
26:03Yes.
26:04Since 2005, I'll use your date, no? Since 2005, meaning there are really work that are paid up to $150
26:13,000.
26:13Yes.
26:14Depending on, like, if you are a developer, systems integrator, this is, like, paid higher than that, no?
26:23There are also realities na ni-expand po siya to work that can be done by high school graduates.
26:31Yes.
26:31Diba? Because in the past, ang requirement majority add to was college level or college graduates.
26:37Ah, nakatungtungo college or ni-graduate or college.
26:39Correct. Oh. But it even started with just college graduates.
26:42And then eventually, niabot siya to college level.
26:44Until senior high.
26:45And now, niabot na gitag senior high or even high school.
26:47No? Okay. Once, technically, they step out of high school, they can be employed naman.
26:51Yes.
26:51Diba? So, niabot na siya.
26:53Pero that would also tell us na some companies may be exploiting this and that's X.
26:58But if we assume that the companies are not exploiting, it's also because the jobs that are available are also
27:06easier in terms of complexity compared to the jobs before.
27:10There are actually jobs like just drag this file to a folder and they call that archiving.
27:19I've seen that actually.
27:20Just click and drag, click and drag, click and drag.
27:24There are also jobs like scan, scan, scan, scan, scan, scan.
27:27And then, drag, drag, drag, drag, drag, drag.
27:30So, these are jobs that were not done in the past.
27:35So, in terms of complexity, it also has changed.
27:38Do you think also it's reasonable for the companies to adjust?
27:50Okay. So, on the point of the evolution of the IT BPM sector, that is true, especially with the integration
27:58of artificial intelligence that
28:02naga-developed ang panginahanglan sa mga clients abroad.
28:07But, building up on that, because the IBPAP defines two different skill sets now.
28:15The soft skills and domain skills.
28:18Kanang soft skills mo na kanang effective communication, active listening, critical thinking.
28:23Basically, the traditional characteristics you would need from a BPO worker, katong mga magdawa tog calls.
28:30Technical calls.
28:31Technical calls.
28:32But, katong domain skills, in relation na siya, for example, systems integration, software development,
28:39yunganang mga niche nga mga skills.
28:42But, it boils back again, on the position of Bien, is that mas maayo if a worker has more skills,
28:50they get paid more.
28:51We will not argue with that. Mas maayo na. Mas maayo ka. Mas dago kakswildo dapat.
28:56Pero, ang mga mo ang position is, kung ang katong mga minimum, even as simple as a clerical work as
29:02data entry,
29:03where you just type in, you just transfer one stuff to the next, you should still be paid the minimum
29:08wage.
29:09Because, a minimum wage, no argument with it.
29:12A livable minimum wage. Because, again, these clients are, although, one thing nga klaro sa mga is the IT BPM
29:20sector
29:20nagkadaghan po ng what we call as in-house na BPO companies.
29:23Pasabot ka ng mga dag, mga, na nasa Philippines ba?
29:26You work for them directly and delete siya foreign client imuhang katrabaho.
29:30But, dominant gihapon ang kanang mga traditional BPO companies.
29:35So, the principle of outsourcing is still there.
29:38Katong, for example, US clients.
29:41Say, for example, in California, or for example, Verizon.
29:46That's one of the biggest clients nga na-address sa Philippines.
29:49Verizon is a telco based in the US.
29:51At the lowest, Verizon workers in the US are paid a minimum daily hourly rate of,
29:58or they're paid an hourly rate of 20 US dollars.
30:01That, if you convert that to the current value of peso right now in terms of dollar,
30:06is, kung 60 pesos is $1.
30:10So, $20 times 8 times 60, that's 9,000 pesos.
30:16At least 9,000.
30:23I'm not saying also, Han, correct me if I'm wrong.
30:27I'm not saying also that, again, illegal, no?
30:31Kanang X, give na.
30:33Illegal, XX.
30:34But the other piece also is, did we also recognize that part of the reason why Verizon,
30:43brands like that, moved to the Philippines, it's because of, they're not expecting that Filipinos are paid just like their
30:50country employees or, yeah, in-country employees.
30:56We are aware of that.
30:57That's why, when we ask for a livable entry salary pay,
31:03Right now, it's 1,200.
31:06Lahiri or ajit kayo siya of how, if ang, kung sa mata lang sa kanang foreign niya client,
31:12dakugya po siya o saving kay.
31:14Again, we are, ang katong giingon nga, nag-evolve ang kanang ITBPM sector,
31:19so delete na lang mga kanang traditional BPO setup nga.
31:22Take rag calls or do non-voice stuff.
31:24Pero, that's still the dominant nga category sa ITBPM sector in the Philippines.
31:33In fact, more than 1,000, I think around 1.1 or 1.3 million are employed under contact centers.
31:41Pasabot, ano ka ni kami?
31:43Ako, I'm a call center agent specifically.
31:46So, naghan niya po sa mua ang nagatrabaho, ana.
31:49And are they part of those paid also below minimum?
31:53There are, yes.
31:54In your company?
31:56Kung ako ang a-reference, if I calculate my base pay to how much it should be based of the
32:03minimum wage standard,
32:04it's below ganit.
32:05Below standard minimum or below livable minimum?
32:10Below standard minimum.
32:11Like below 540?
32:12Yes.
32:13It's only, if I calculate it right now, it's only 520 pesos.
32:16It's 20 pesos less than the minimum wage in Santa Visayas.
32:20And I have workmates that have reported that they receive 14,000 or 15,000 base pay.
32:27And wala sile yung incentives, ana, because they're assigned to an account that doesn't have additional allowances.
32:32Sige.
32:33So, we'll also give your company a chance also to rebuke that, para balance.
32:40Sige.
32:40But, yeah.
32:42Okay.
32:42Sige.
32:44Okay.
32:45Sige.
32:45Now, going back.
32:46But at least, that's been said.
32:48And then, wala mong tanaka kita sa both sides.
32:50So, we'll just stick to this.
32:52And then, we'll give your company a chance also to issue their statement just in case.
32:58But, going back, nasa katong range ba?
33:02Because, what's the money?
33:04Katong, di ba magkataas, ang complexity, nakusad ang pay.
33:08Yes.
33:08And we don't argue with that.
33:10But, do you also recognize katong giingon na magkaubos po siya ang complexity?
33:15Dili mo naog sa minimum wage.
33:17But, di po siya siguro mo compete with those who are at the mid, median.
33:23Kay naman tayo, median, katong tech support na to, nga traditional.
33:26It becomes more complicated than higher.
33:30But, ang complexity po from the traditional tech support, katong mga naabot naman ta sa archiving ka ron, drag na
33:36lang yun.
33:36Click and drag.
33:38So, di po siguro na to sila i-equal aning technical support.
33:44Yes.
33:45Again, mo ang point is, kung imuhang niche, imung skills kay deserving of a higher pay, go.
33:53Wala may lalisan na.
33:54But, what I'm saying is, it looks like this is the 1,200 proposal.
33:58Nga, median?
33:59No, not necessarily.
34:00Okay, this was the tech support level man in 2005.
34:05In 2005?
34:06Oh, karun, kinabot naman ginta sa kanang click and drag.
34:10Or, set appointment.
34:12Maana ginta di ha?
34:13I understand.
34:14Call the doctor.
34:16Or, tell him na magpaibot ng ipon by 8 o'clock.
34:19Kind of work naman ginta.
34:21Exactly.
34:22Pero, maana siya nga, in terms of our position, kato, if ang skill sets lang jod, skill sets go, if
34:30the more skills you have, you can offer to a company, should be paid more.
34:34Pero, ang baseline ni mo is, ang pinakaubos nga ihatag ni mo kay katong makabuhi.
34:39So, katong, kanin, mong ipakita ganin na, katong, what we call as raise to the bottom nga wages, kay, ironically,
34:47dapat gani if ang industry kay, nagkadaghan ang iyahang mga competitors kay, meaning ana, nagailog siya sa human resources.
34:56So, therefore, competitive unta ang iyahang pay nga i-offer.
35:00But, unfortunately, they're low-balling us because the reason there, one of the reasons at least that we know is
35:07kanang, ah, dagahan o job openings.
35:10So, it's not really us that should be offering, like, privilege na lang nga makasood ka sa mwa.
35:15Ang nga nabi to, nga, that's ridiculous to say the least nga, dapat ang, again, this is what we call
35:23the dignity of labor, nga, dapat nga,
35:26makabuhi siya.
35:27So, the other na lang, because I think just like any conversation, we cannot solve everything today also, but I
35:33think siguro, my suggestion also for your group is, katulang siguro,
35:36kanang, where do we draw the 1,200 proposal? Is it on the mid, which is the traditional technical support?
35:44Entry level, amuang, kwan?
35:46Itong drag and click?
35:48Kung ansa ang category of entry level?
35:51So, included ang drag and click?
35:52Oh, mawajun na kay, mamana ang common.
35:54I'll click and drag there.
35:55So, 1,200.
35:57Because on a national level, BNS proposed, our primary legislative advocacy is what we call the Magna Carta for BPO
36:06workers.
36:07In that specific law that we are advocating in both houses of Congress, ang giset na mo nga, entry level
36:13salary for BPO workers.
36:15Entry level salary ha, the right package.
36:17Entry level salary is 36,000, which is based off the computation, 1,200 every day in a month.
36:23Oh, sige.
36:24So, entry level siya.
36:26So, katulang mga tech support, they should be paid more because they're doing more.
36:29And for your information lang, we have reports gani nga, tech support kay, 13,500 ang base pay.
36:35So, what does that say of the industry practice being done right now?
36:39Sige, I'll leave it for the companies to comment just in case.
36:44Now, the other piece also, you brought an interesting point earlier kay, ni-evolved na po d'ang industry.
36:52In the past, majority are serving kaniang globally.
36:58But there are also companies now who are serving local brands.
37:03Yes.
37:03Philippine brands.
37:05Do you also think the 1,200 daily or 36,500 monthly applies to those workers serving local brands?
37:17Yes, because in our position, we support the, because just to clarify, the petition we filed to the Regional Wage
37:25Board is not exclusive to us BPO workers.
37:28It's actually a petition for all private sector workers because we believe that all of us in the private sector
37:34must be paid a livable wage.
37:36Regardless of work.
38:06And that's how we should be paying our workers.
38:09But sige lang ha, for kwan lang ni siya, and then we can move to another topic.
38:14But in my view lang ha, and I'm not forcing it to you, I think skill sets is, it should
38:21be part of the compensation.
38:23Okay, pwede man na, because it can work the other way around, baya.
38:27Pwede biya siya patrabaho on ag-software development, and then regardless, baya.
38:30Ran na po siya minimum wage.
38:31Because that's not how things work.
38:34The more complicated it is, the higher the compensation is.
38:38And the lesser complicated it is, the lower the pay is.
38:43But dili mo na ako sa minimum wage.
38:44Klaro ho na na to.
38:45But that's how it is.
38:47The more complex, gets paid more.
38:50The lesser the complexity, gets paid less.
38:54Dili pwede nagtindog niya.
38:56Mauna na siya.
38:59I do understand, and again, I will reiterate that it's not mutually exclusive, but there is a primary and secondary
39:07in how we should be paying our workers.
39:09And again, the minimum that workers should be paid is within livable standards dapat.
39:14Mawa mo ang advocacy dili.
39:16Sige.
39:16Now, the other thing, now let's move na to the other moving forward lang sa, before we leave, no?
39:23Let's talk also about the industry moving towards automation and artificial intelligence.
39:30And just to level set, para you also get to see where I'm coming from.
39:35Ako is, I'm for efficiency, no?
39:38I'm also for speed.
39:40I'm also for accuracy.
39:42So, that's what artificial intelligence actually does.
39:46What I don't advocate is we don't upscale our people to be able to do even better.
39:52So, ato lang sa ang gibiaan, and then ni-efficient na.
39:55That's what I don't agree.
39:57Pero, if we are moving together, both humans and technology together, through artificial intelligence, then why not?
40:03Because it makes things faster, more accurate, diba?
40:07But, do you also think that it can accelerate global companies?
40:19Okay, kumusa ka na ang cost for locations like the Philippines?
40:24Do you think it would also elevate the interest of global companies to just go for automation?
40:32Because labor cost in the Philippines is already going higher.
40:36When it comes to the discussion, because it boils back to the myth that we're trying to debunk right now.
40:44Okay, if pasakaan na ito ang minimum or ang labor cost dito sa Philippines, nag-exodus ang koan, mga BP
40:50or mga foreign investors dito sa Pilipinas.
40:53It's actually a lie, specific to the industry.
40:55Because India has for long been paying workers less than in the Philippines.
41:02So, meaning to say, mas barato dito sa India kaysa sa Pilipinas.
41:05Pero nga nung ma-invest mang gihapon ang mga foreign clients dito sa Philippines than in India, maskin pa na
41:12ang India, when they can just stick to India, is because of our skill sets.
41:17For example, because again, based on the premise nga, contact centers ang dominant gihapon nga category in the ITBPM sector.
41:25Ang language proficiency sa mga Filipino is so close to how US or American workers can speak, then mas preferred
41:35na nila.
41:36Because it can cater to their market.
41:40So, mauna nga, skill set wise, dili lang simple as labor cost ang consideration sa mga foreign investors.
41:50Kaya if that was the case, dili na, wala adjunante mo invest na foreign business that is sa Philippines if
41:55ka na lang.
41:56Sige, just for context, I would agree, no, at least for the research that I got here, yeah, India is
42:01paid lower, no?
42:03But that's also recognized, ipark lang na ito niya, but para perspective, let's also recognize that there are already language
42:09neutralization AIs today.
42:11Okay, that the accent just disappears.
42:16Ah, tinood man na.
42:16Correct.
42:17So, that can potentially impact also competitiveness of India if our concern is on the accent.
42:26Okay?
42:26AI will neutralize that.
42:29Tinood man.
42:30So, that differentiator of the Philippines to AI will eventually, potentially be leveled off na po.
42:38Tinood man, pero that would also mean on the part of...
42:41Foreign business, at least on the part of foreign businesses, it would cost them more rather than just get an
42:48actual labor na cheaper compared sa yung actual cost of you're paying pa minimum wage.
42:55Say, for example, India, na mag-invest pa kag-ningana nga technology.
42:59No, but actually for AI, it's just the initial cost that's difficult.
43:05But for large-scale work that would require 10,000 people, that's savings, eventually.
43:11So, kana lang, no?
43:12Put into context also nga, if companies, global companies can already invest in artificial intelligence, that would translate.
43:22So, bisang gabalibali si English can still be a good one because AI will translate that into perfect English and
43:32impeccable accent.
43:34You can choose pa English and British accent.
43:37I've seen that AI.
43:39And then with countries like India with a lower cost than the Philippines, if our language differentiator is already addressed
43:48by AI,
43:49do you think the impact of increasing cost in the Philippines would motivate more global companies to move to lower
43:59cost locations like India?
44:03That is a possibility, and we will not deny that.
44:06And we have, at least on the part of us workers, that's not, we don't have control over that.
44:14But if that is, our position is this.
44:17Because what we are being presented right now is an insecurity of tenure because basing off everything that you've presented
44:27and what we know so far from what we've studied both on ground and researching the entire industry,
44:33it can be described as only one word, it is very volatile.
44:39And if that kind of volatility is allowed to persist in our country and become what we call a sunshine
44:46industry in the first place,
44:48and we invest it as a main economic driver, if at any time we just pay our workers with dignified
44:55wages, livable standards, and pull out sila, what does that say of the industry?
45:01But let's also consider that volatility is not just contained in the Philippines.
45:07Volatility is also what the world experience.
45:10I understand, but on the perspective of,
45:13where should the industry be in the Philippines?
45:21Sige. I think that's where we will potentially end.
45:25I think I would rather, and that's a good question,
45:27I think we would rather work as an ecosystem and look at how both workers and the industry, the employers,
45:37can actually thrive together.
45:39Because I think,
45:40I'm going to segue towards the end now, thanks to you.
45:43Because I think it should not be employer versus employee.
45:47We agree.
45:47It should be something that we work together.
45:50But before I close, and for perspective, we covered India.
45:54There are also emerging locations, at least none, I can give this data to you.
45:59In South Africa, they have excellent, just like the Philippines, they're classified with excellent English proficiency.
46:08But their cost to the Philippines, as we speak, is similar, or slightly higher, or slightly lower, depending on the
46:18role.
46:19So in short, they are as good as the Philippines, and their cost currently is just the same as the
46:25Philippines.
46:26So if Philippines will raise our cost, I think, you know, if you're a savvy business person, where you would
46:33put your eggs, right?
46:34The other country also is Egypt.
46:37It's also good to very good.
46:41So not bad.
46:43No, so it's good to very good.
46:45And their labor cost is often lower than the Philippines.
46:51So if we increase the labor cost in the Philippines,
46:56Egypt would be more competitive in terms of the Philippines,
47:01and it's offering language proficiency considered to be good to very good.
47:09Put lang lang lang that on perspective.
47:11Because that's actually where, kanang, I was hoping na, kanang, it would be more of a,
47:17an ecosystem conversation.
47:19Employers, employees, and the players.
47:22Because we would have to look at this long-term.
47:29Okay, listen, if we focus short-term,
47:33we get what we want, which is the race.
47:36And it might potentially compromise the competitiveness of the country
47:41that will eventually result to an industry
47:45that's slowly going to be a sunset industry.
47:51We don't want na mukalit lang tagka-12 noon
47:54because of the 1,200,
47:57but by 2 p.m., sunset na.
48:01Sige, your thoughts.
48:03So putting that into perspective,
48:06as well as global development,
48:09specifically in the U.S.,
48:11because right now pending in the U.S. Congress
48:13is what we call the Bring Back Call Centers in America app.
48:17So that alone, again, we go back na,
48:22right now, our position is clear.
48:25We want to work with employers in being able to deliver.
48:30Because we workers,
48:32who deliver man, may kutos na mga kaya.
48:34But,
48:37dili mangood makawala o gana o trabaho,
48:41makapawala o sense of what we're doing.
48:45Yung mura rin ka ganti-trabaho,
48:46subay pa sa uban mga labor groups na,
48:48yung trabaho rin ka parang makapangutang.
48:51Ang simple rin kaing ipangayo sa mga empleyado sa manamo
48:55and across the entire private sector,
48:57na makabuhi dapat ang standard sa minimum wage.
49:00Dili siya kanang poverty wages ang ginahatag sa mga workers,
49:04especially amid a backdrop of trillions of pesos
49:08in kanang labor productivity nga na-generate.
49:12So, bearing those in mind,
49:15kailangan siya nga,
49:19subay sa nga nga nga framework ba tao nga makabuhi.
49:22And when we talk about labor costs in the industry,
49:25that's been a common thing.
49:27In fact, since last year, if you've read the news
49:30na katong mga naglindong, nagbaha,
49:32katong grabe kay mga experiences sa mga workers,
49:35when we speak up,
49:37we're always told na don't rock the boat.
49:42Our answer to that,
49:44why are we blaming those rocking the boat
49:46when we should be asking in the first place,
49:49why is a boat so fragile allowed to sail in the sea in the first place?
49:55So, kanalang mo ang closing...
49:59Closing a remark?
50:00Closing a remark.
50:05Murag ka na lang sa to.
50:07Why are you asking,
50:09Bien,
50:10who is rocking the boat,
50:12instead of asking why the boat is rocking?
50:16Why is such a boat so fragile kay maalang to sail?
50:20Sige, sige.
50:20I'll leave the closing remarks to you
50:22because my final question actually is,
50:25what's your message, no?
50:29Or your take,
50:30your final take about how employers,
50:34because this is not about employees versus employers
50:37or employers versus employee, you know?
50:41This is really about ensuring
50:43that both employers and employees
50:46can thrive and succeed.
50:48So, what's your final take
50:49on how we can make that happen
50:51as an industry and as a country,
50:54or even as a region?
50:56As a whole.
50:58As a whole.
51:01We really want to...
51:03It's simple, really.
51:05What workers only want
51:07is to be able to live with dignity,
51:09both for themselves and their families.
51:12That is not asking for too much.
51:17Companies,
51:19especially the largest of companies
51:21in the Philippines,
51:24a simple increase,
51:26a simple significant increase
51:28in daily minimum wages
51:30or monthly salaries
51:32will not hurt them.
51:35Businesses,
51:37smaller,
51:38may kanong gitawang itong
51:39micro, small, and medium enterprises
51:41that are the shield of big business
51:44when it comes to calls
51:46for a significant wage increase.
51:49It must be government's responsibility.
51:52The role,
51:52naidapat role ang gobyerno
51:54in the whole discussion nga.
51:57Sa mga gagmang negosyo,
51:59dapat hatag siya
52:00o tabang in terms of capitalization,
52:03subsidies to keep up
52:04if there are significant wage increases.
52:07As a whole,
52:08as a business as Jude,
52:11dapat mas maklaro nga ka nang
52:14ang mga added expenses nila,
52:16especially those that hurt small businesses,
52:18ma-eliminate
52:19if not reduce.
52:20So,
52:22mo na ang
52:22mo ang
52:23take-away
52:23ana ba nga?
52:26Okay,
52:27mo na ang tinabangay
52:27sa employer,
52:28employee,
52:29but government
52:30should also be
52:31taking an active role
52:32in the whole
52:34situation.
52:35Sige,
52:36so,
52:37thank you,
52:37Kyle,
52:38and thank you
52:39to Coffee First
52:40for supporting
52:41conversations
52:42that matter.
52:44So,
52:44the challenge
52:45before us
52:45is not to choose
52:46between workers
52:47and employers.
52:49It is to create
52:50conditions
52:51where both
52:52can succeed.
52:54So,
52:54we will leave you
52:55with this question.
52:57How do we build
52:58an industry
52:58where Filipino talent
53:00continues to be
53:01the world's first choice,
53:03not because
53:04we are the cheapest,
53:06but because
53:06we are among
53:07the best?
53:09That conversation
53:10doesn't end today.
53:11It is just
53:12the beginning
53:13of many more
53:14and the goal
53:15is for us
53:16to understand each other.
53:17So,
53:18I'm DJ Moises.
53:19This is Beyond the Headlines.
53:20Look deeper,
53:21think better,
53:22have a good afternoon.
53:29It starts
53:30with a fresh
53:30shot of espresso.
53:33Bold,
53:34rich,
53:35bold,
53:36just right.
53:38Then comes
53:39the milk,
53:40steamed,
53:41smooth,
53:42creamy,
53:43and balanced.
53:44The perfect latte
53:45is not brushed.
53:46It is crafted
53:48one cup
53:49at a time.
53:50Your perfect latte
53:51is ready.
53:53Coffee first,
53:54then
53:55everything else.
53:57It is not
53:59good.
54:00It is not
54:07good.
54:08It is not
54:10good.
54:11It is not
54:14what it means.
54:16It is not
54:17good.
54:18It is not
54:18good.
54:19It is not
54:21good.
54:22All rights
54:23are
54:24good.
54:24You
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