- 5 hours ago
The Dunblane Tapes
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00:00:01I've never wanted to talk about it publicly before.
00:00:06I still find it very hard to process everything.
00:00:13Yeah.
00:00:29I should have been able to protect those, those children were given into my care.
00:00:35And I didn't protect them.
00:00:44Sixteen small children and their teacher murdered by a gunman in a Dunblane primary school.
00:00:50Nobody can understand why this has happened.
00:00:53He went in with 743 bullets.
00:00:57Who would ever have thought that the guy next door to you, quite legally, could be armed to the teeth?
00:01:01And that's when I realised, let's carry on, you know.
00:01:07I started using the camera when I lost Emma. I was a bit scared to forget what we went through.
00:01:13Sometimes got emotional, sometimes got angry.
00:01:16But some days I wake up and I think to myself, this has been a dream.
00:01:21But we tried to make sure that we were keeping the gun control campaign alive.
00:01:26They play with their guns.
00:01:28At the end of the day, it's my daughter who's playing their life.
00:01:32Why don't you like guns?
00:01:34Because they kill people.
00:01:36Who do you know that's been killed by a gun?
00:01:38I never got caught.
00:01:40A complete handgun ban is the only answer to Dunblane.
00:02:09I've had the camera for years, so it just seemed quite natural to try and record what we did.
00:02:15Because it was so intense and so hard to do, and having lost Emma.
00:02:23I never thought that 30 years later, we'd be digging these out, the crozier tapes, as we called them.
00:02:30At that time, I don't think I ever saw you without a camera on your shoulder.
00:02:33Then we'd sit there, you know, just talk.
00:02:41Right.
00:02:42The last day of 1886.
00:02:44Can you sum up, please?
00:02:47From the 1st of January to the 12th of March.
00:02:50That was a great part of the year for me.
00:02:54From the 13th of March till today, the last day of the year.
00:03:09I was just trying to remember what it was like at this time last year.
00:03:15And things would just be normal.
00:03:16Hello, Santa.
00:03:18Hello, Santa.
00:03:19I'd like to see you.
00:03:20Thanks, I've got one.
00:03:21Merry Christmas.
00:03:25All the kids hyper about Christmas.
00:03:28Hyper about being off school.
00:03:30All the things that you think are just normal.
00:03:33That you take for granted.
00:03:39All the sudden, something happens.
00:03:42It just changes your life.
00:03:43It changes your whole outlook and things.
00:03:45All the things that were important and not important.
00:03:49All the things that you wish you'd done and never did because you were too busy.
00:03:54And you have all these regrets about these things.
00:04:02There's some madman to burst into a school in a wee village like Dunblane.
00:04:08It's just beyond belief.
00:04:21In 1996, I was deputy head and responsible for the infant department in Dunblane Primary.
00:04:3213th of March was a frosty morning and the car wouldn't unlock.
00:04:37The only bit that would unlock was the boot.
00:04:39And I got into the car through the boot and set off down to the primary school.
00:04:50In 1996, I was working for the Sunday Mail, which is a newspaper in Glasgow.
00:04:56And that morning, we were in the morning conference.
00:05:00And all the executives were sitting in chairs around the room,
00:05:04trying to think of ideas to put forward for the week.
00:05:13It was an infant assembly morning.
00:05:16We had Easter hymns.
00:05:18The assembly was over just before half past nine.
00:05:26Children left the hall.
00:05:28I went into my office.
00:05:31And a little bit later, there was what sounded like fireworks going off.
00:05:44I was one of the older students in the school at the time.
00:05:47There's this little bit in your mind saying,
00:05:49oh, it can't be gunshots.
00:05:50It can't be gunshots.
00:05:51But as soon as you kept hearing these noises going off,
00:05:54that is definitely gunfire coming from over in the direction of the gym.
00:06:03My classroom was in one of the huts.
00:06:06It was Hut 7.
00:06:07We're all looking up towards the gym to see what's going on.
00:06:10The next thing you see is the fire door of the gym open.
00:06:13And we were just looking at him.
00:06:15And as soon as that gun was pointing towards the hut,
00:06:18we just went to ground.
00:06:21He's shooting at our hut.
00:06:26Somebody shouted something about the gym.
00:06:28And we all ran up.
00:06:31Can you describe to me what you saw then?
00:06:37Smoke.
00:06:42I don't think I want, I don't want to talk about what I saw.
00:06:48I think that's something that I will never forget.
00:06:54But I don't, I don't feel happy talking about it.
00:06:58No, that's fine.
00:07:06I've got parts of that day that are somewhere in here.
00:07:13But I'm probably frightened to let them out.
00:07:26We were in conference and the deputy news editor poked his head in,
00:07:31which was something that never normally happened.
00:07:33Nobody ever interrupted conference.
00:07:35And he said there's been a shooting at the primary school in Dunblane.
00:07:40And it was like, get on the road and get driving.
00:07:44The horrific incident happened this morning at Dunblane primary school.
00:07:48We had the radio on and I had a feeling of dread in the pit of my stomach.
00:07:53Unconfirmed report suggests that the gunman has now shot himself.
00:07:57Police have set up a help.
00:07:59We got to the big roundabout where you peel off for Dunblane.
00:08:03And it was at that point that they said on the radio.
00:08:06The incident is said to have happened in the gymnasium as children,
00:08:10primary one children aged five to six were playing as the...
00:08:14We believe it was a primary one class, you know, first year.
00:08:17First year at primary school.
00:08:19It was like a physical jolt.
00:08:21It's understood that the children all aged five or six were in the school's gymnasium...
00:08:26I could see the woman in the car behind.
00:08:28She had put her hand over her mouth.
00:08:30She was listening to the same report.
00:08:35My little boy was in primary two at the time.
00:08:38They're just toddlers, aren't they?
00:08:39I mean, they're just toddlers wearing their best wellies.
00:08:46We heard the sirens and the blue lights and they were whizzing past us.
00:09:01As we arrived near the primary school, there were just people everywhere.
00:09:06I mean, normally journalists go to an event that has happened.
00:09:10Here it was still happening. It was still literally unfolding.
00:09:23And I remember mothers running towards the main entrance to the school.
00:09:30Still in their slippers, some of them, you know,
00:09:31because they'd just run from their houses.
00:09:33I have got parents in primary one.
00:09:36No, I had no.
00:09:37You only got one in.
00:09:54My name is John Crozier.
00:09:55My daughter Emma went to Turnblane Primary School.
00:10:01My name is Les Morton.
00:10:03My daughter Emily was five and she was also in the class at Dunblane Primary School.
00:10:12We are Kenny and Pam Ross, parents of Joanna.
00:10:17We went to Dunblane Primary School.
00:10:21I'm Mick North.
00:10:23My daughter Sophie went to Dunblane Primary School in March 1996.
00:10:32I was sat in my office in Edinburgh.
00:10:34I was having a meeting and the phone rang.
00:10:37And I remember I was annoyed that the phone had rang when I was in full flow.
00:10:41And she said, you'd better come right away.
00:10:45There's been a shooting at the school.
00:10:48And I thought, I couldn't believe that.
00:10:51I said, say that again.
00:10:53And she said, there's been a shooting at the school.
00:10:56I got into the car and my knees were shaking.
00:11:00That was probably the worst drive I've ever had in my life.
00:11:08We were told to go to a house next to the entrance of the school.
00:11:12And it's there that I met up with people who I knew also had children in Sophie's class.
00:11:31That was when I first knew that Sophie could be involved.
00:11:42We were on the ground in the hut for 15, 20 minutes.
00:11:47There was quite a lot of broken glass that had come in from the window that was shot through.
00:11:50And we were certainly wanting to know what's going on outside.
00:11:54Then a police officer came in and told us, you can get back up again.
00:11:58Just sit and wait until you get called to go and meet your parents.
00:12:06You think, well, there must be hundreds of parents here wanting to find their children.
00:12:12It is difficult to convey.
00:12:14Parents are being taken into the main part of the school and reunited with their children.
00:12:18They're then walking out of the school and back down the street that it sits on.
00:12:22It really is quite an unbelievable scene here.
00:12:32When we met my dad, I was very relieved that there wasn't really any risk to us now.
00:12:40Then I got rather sworn by the media.
00:12:42We heard these gunshots in the gym. We looked down and thought,
00:12:44oh, we must have just been firing at our targets or something.
00:12:47Then he came out through a fire axe and started firing at our hearts.
00:12:50And, God, we were all petrified.
00:12:56I remember the sight of small women carrying children that were far too big to be carried.
00:13:02The strangeness of that.
00:13:05Clinging on to their children in a way that we all wanted to cling on to our children.
00:13:19You know, it felt, it felt wrong to be there.
00:13:37The children who could walk were taken out of the gym onto the stage in the hall.
00:13:45We sat and sang, taking their minds off it.
00:13:50And then I was called away back to the gym.
00:13:54And I was asked to help with the identification, which was really difficult.
00:14:07Around one o'clock or something like that, some families started to be called out.
00:14:11So, for a little while, there was some comfort in thinking,
00:14:15well, they're the ones who are going to get the worst news.
00:14:17But it actually turned out to be the other way around.
00:14:20They were the families of the injured children.
00:14:22Whereas those of us who waited were the ones who were going to find out that our children had died.
00:14:29We sat in that room for over three and a half hours before we were told.
00:14:37We were the second to last family to be told.
00:14:40We were taken away from the room and told in a store cupboard, in fact.
00:14:48So that is so important.
00:14:53But...
00:14:54I mean it's just a horrific, horrific experience.
00:14:59I can't imagine anything worse.
00:15:03I mean, it was almost like an unreal existence.
00:15:25I had just turned 19 and I was living in North London.
00:15:29I was drying my hair and I had the radio on here
00:15:32and I switched the hair dryer off and I just caught the tail end of something.
00:15:39Of course, it immediately got my attention.
00:15:42So I phoned the school and asked to speak to my mum
00:15:45because she taught at Dunblane Primary.
00:15:50I remember the school secretary saying that I couldn't speak to my mum
00:15:53but that I should phone this helpline phone number,
00:15:56but I couldn't get through on that.
00:15:59So we went downstairs and we started watching on the television.
00:16:02Every new update that came was kind of getting worse.
00:16:12That afternoon, I had a phone call from the police.
00:16:16It was like, Debbie or Deborah, your mum has been killed in the school shooting.
00:16:24You know, I just, yeah, that's just, that's all I remember.
00:16:48When my plane landed in Scotland, I just remember being taken home
00:16:53and there'd been a lot of people there and her voice was still on the answer phone.
00:16:59Her lipstick was still on the coffee cup.
00:17:01You know, and then my dad and I slept on the sofa for a couple of nights.
00:17:07He didn't want to go upstairs.
00:17:13It was just a kind of comforting, a comfort thing.
00:17:27To get caught to your child's school and to know that there's been a shooting
00:17:33and that children have been killed and to sit in a room for four or five hours
00:17:39because we think to find out what happened to your child
00:17:42and then to be told your child's been murdered.
00:17:46And within a week, they're buried.
00:17:51I mean, nobody would think that's possible.
00:17:53I still don't think that's possible.
00:17:55There's some days I wake up and I think to myself,
00:17:57this has been a dream.
00:17:59It didn't happen.
00:18:01I mean, I am having real difficulty coming to terms with that.
00:18:05I feel, I feel venomous.
00:18:07Every day.
00:18:08Waking up.
00:18:10First thing you think.
00:18:12My child's gone.
00:18:14Never to be seen again.
00:18:22So this was my article from the Sunday Mail on the 17th of March, 1996.
00:18:30Today, with an irony so dreadful it stills our soul,
00:18:34is Mother's Day, even in Dunblane.
00:18:43Inside Gwen Mayer's deserted primary one classroom
00:18:46lie the cards that will never be finished.
00:18:49Every mum knows those adorably haphazard offerings from primary ones.
00:18:56Those little fragments of love that mums never throw out,
00:18:59but cherish and hoard.
00:19:01Ducking away in drawers with a secret smile.
00:19:04But no more.
00:19:07For the bereaved mothers of Dunblane,
00:19:09waking up not to a cuddle and a sticky kiss,
00:19:12but to emptiness,
00:19:13those joys are gone forever.
00:19:22Four days on, it's still too much for any of us to take in.
00:19:26Like wounded animals,
00:19:27they flock to their beautiful 13th century cathedral.
00:19:31We're remembering every boy and girl in that class,
00:19:35because we know how happy they were
00:19:37and how much fun they had together
00:19:40and how much their parents loved them.
00:19:47What's the first thing you see when you're waiting up?
00:19:50I see Emily.
00:19:54See her face?
00:19:55I do, funnily enough.
00:19:57Is it a photograph?
00:19:58No, it's not.
00:19:59It's like a life picture.
00:20:00It's like she was.
00:20:01It's the toothless grin.
00:20:04The toothless, cheeky, amoptimistic grin.
00:20:13Emily was the most determined child I've ever known.
00:20:19Whatever she wanted to do,
00:20:20nothing could stop her doing it.
00:20:22She had massive curly hair.
00:20:25I mean, she just...
00:20:26I think she looked like she was.
00:20:28She looked a character.
00:20:34Was that...
00:20:34That was in Grand Canaria, I think.
00:20:36Yeah, I think that was Grand Canaria.
00:20:37Which was the second last holiday that we had with her.
00:20:43Bonny, bonny lassie.
00:20:45And this one, she's a wee wee old, huh?
00:20:47Yeah, eating her toes.
00:20:49You often wonder what you'd turn into, you know?
00:20:54You just don't know.
00:20:57This was taken in Joanne's conservatory.
00:21:01Yeah, I don't know if that was when Joanne cut Emma's fringe.
00:21:05I think that might be the resulting fringe.
00:21:09That'll be why it's all over the place.
00:21:12Joanne was doing a bit of hairdressing.
00:21:15The two of them were very close.
00:21:19Nah, just a beautiful, beautiful pair of kids.
00:21:21And young Jack.
00:21:29Sophie's mum, Barbara, sadly died in 1993.
00:21:32So from then on, there were just the two of us.
00:21:39She was a very sparkly, smiley little girl.
00:21:41She was fun to be with.
00:21:49When Don Blaine's bereaved, it will get worse before it gets better.
00:21:54Reality, this Mother's Day means the indescribable ache of empty arms.
00:22:00And that reverberating, unanswerable, searing question
00:22:04that shakes the very core of this ancient town.
00:22:07Why?
00:22:12I did my best, I did my best.
00:22:24My memory is that it was as if this heaviness
00:22:29had descended on the area and everybody was affected.
00:22:37In March 1996, I was on maternity leave
00:22:41and so I felt I had to keep watching all the news reports
00:22:47that were coming in.
00:22:48Described by the few who knew him as a weird kind of man,
00:22:51he was the classic loner, he was a member of his local gun club.
00:22:55When I was watching, it made me think of the Hungerford shootings
00:22:58in 1987.
00:23:02Hungerford in Berkshire.
00:23:03He began his killing spree in nearby woods
00:23:06and ended it when he shot himself in the local primary school.
00:23:10The perpetrator at Hungerford had shot more of his victims
00:23:14with a handgun than he had with the assault rifle.
00:23:17And it was only the assault rifles that were banned, not handguns.
00:23:22I think my thinking was then, this shouldn't have happened.
00:23:25After Hungerford, this shouldn't have happened.
00:23:27And what can we do to make sure it doesn't happen again?
00:23:33The next day, I'd arranged to come and have coffee
00:23:37with Jacqueline Walsh.
00:23:42Anne didn't live in Dunblane anymore,
00:23:44but we knew each other from Dunblane.
00:23:45She didn't live far away.
00:23:46So we met at this friend's house,
00:23:50and probably because the whole country was talking about it,
00:23:53we got round to talking about what had happened.
00:23:55Fresh details were emerging about the killer.
00:23:58He regularly practised his marksmanship
00:24:00at the Whitestone military firing range.
00:24:02He owned four powerful handguns.
00:24:04This man had a gun licence.
00:24:07We realised that he didn't actually do anything wrong
00:24:10until he fired the first shot.
00:24:12Handgun ownership in this country was perfectly legal.
00:24:16We thought, somebody needs to do something about this.
00:24:21By the end of that coffee, we came up with the idea of a petition.
00:24:27I phoned the House of Commons,
00:24:30asked how you start a petition
00:24:32that will be taken seriously by Parliament,
00:24:35and they posted me all the information
00:24:37that we needed to start a petition.
00:24:40And it was at that point Rosemary joined us and said,
00:24:44how can I help?
00:24:45Anne had got onto this campaign,
00:24:48you know, the idea of running a campaign,
00:24:50and I was immediately keen to see if I could help out and do something.
00:24:54Because the only flowers in bloom at the time were snowdrops,
00:24:59and that they would come back every year
00:25:01to remind us of what had happened.
00:25:03The name we decided on was the Dunblane Snowdrop petition.
00:25:08That was all decided with three mums
00:25:11with young children and toddlers running around us.
00:25:14We were just sitting on the carpet.
00:25:16We weren't even sitting on the sofa.
00:25:23I mocked up the petition on the word processor.
00:25:28And one of the points was a complete ban
00:25:31on the private ownership and possession of handguns.
00:25:35We needed to find a large number of people to sign the petition.
00:25:41Anne got permission for us to have a table
00:25:43outside the shopping centre in Stirling.
00:25:46So we had my wallpaper pasting table for my garage.
00:25:50And so we were outside and we had our clipboards
00:25:52and we were asking people as they went in.
00:25:55When we were standing at the table,
00:25:57everybody we asked happily signed.
00:25:59We didn't necessarily expect that level of support.
00:26:05Everybody that signed it on the Saturday wanted to take it away,
00:26:10copy it, give it out to people.
00:26:12We decided that we would be there every Saturday.
00:26:22I think by that time a lot of the families thought
00:26:25it would be useful to get together.
00:26:28We sat in a circle, introduced ourselves
00:26:32and then we just sat and talked.
00:26:38We only knew one or two other parents.
00:26:42There was always one thing in common,
00:26:44we'd all lost a child.
00:26:45And it kind of stemmed from there
00:26:47that we'd meet once a week.
00:26:51I never had any intention about going.
00:26:53I was in no fit state.
00:26:55My feeling was I wanted to be alone.
00:26:58And then for some reason I had to go one night.
00:27:01And you arrived halfway through the meeting
00:27:03and saw a new face, which was me,
00:27:05and in your gregarious fashion,
00:27:07introduced yourself.
00:27:12The friendship that grew amongst the bereaved parents
00:27:14was phenomenal.
00:27:16I don't know.
00:27:21I actually seriously think that if it wasn't for the fact
00:27:26that there were 17 families in this together,
00:27:32that it would be unbearable.
00:27:36I mean there were times when I think about it
00:27:38and I think it is unbearable.
00:27:41And at least times I think about,
00:27:42about you.
00:27:45It's a funny thing to say,
00:27:46but that's what makes it bearable.
00:27:49Otherwise I'd just go nuts.
00:28:00I don't think any of us knew much about guns.
00:28:02I mean about the legislation,
00:28:04about what was allowable, what wasn't.
00:28:05I mean we knew nothing.
00:28:07However, we soon learned.
00:28:09And it was frightening what we learned.
00:28:12It just seemed crazy that people could legally have guns.
00:28:16And not just one gun,
00:28:17then half a dozen.
00:28:19I remember thinking,
00:28:20who would ever have thought that the guy next door to you,
00:28:23quite legally, could be armed to the teeth?
00:28:29One of the parents, John Crozier,
00:28:31asked us if he could have two boxes,
00:28:33like photocopy boxes,
00:28:35of the petition to send out to people.
00:28:41I remember thinking to myself,
00:28:42we need to try and put pressure on the governments
00:28:46to ban handguns.
00:28:52I sat up the afternoon.
00:28:54It's in my bedroom.
00:28:56Now he has guns going on.
00:29:00You know, I realised that guns were all around us.
00:29:03Even in the hills behind my house,
00:29:05I was faced with people using guns.
00:29:08There was a shooting range near Dunblain.
00:29:10There were gun shops on the high streets.
00:29:13And thousands of people who love shooting
00:29:15saw it as their right to own a gun.
00:29:18But I honestly mean,
00:29:20these guys are the enemy.
00:29:22Their point of view cost people their lives.
00:29:26It's not they who pay.
00:29:28They play with their guns.
00:29:29End of the day,
00:29:30it's my daughter who's playing with her life.
00:29:32For their right to play with a gun.
00:29:41Hello Jack.
00:29:42Hello Jack.
00:29:44What's your name?
00:29:45Jack.
00:29:46Where are you from?
00:29:47The plane.
00:29:48Give me a twirl.
00:29:53Are you going to be a baker when you're big?
00:29:55A big baker.
00:29:56A big baker.
00:29:57Let me see what you've made.
00:29:58Show me what you've made.
00:30:00Wow.
00:30:02There's some for you and some for me
00:30:05and some for Granny
00:30:06and some for Emma.
00:30:10I think I made good use of the camera.
00:30:13Obviously there's loads of family clips
00:30:15that I've taken.
00:30:17I just wanted to have some sort of record of that time.
00:30:34So when I was a kid,
00:30:36I went a little bit,
00:30:43it was nice to do it.
00:30:44I would have to say the camera's having to do it.
00:30:44I'm a знаком to him.
00:30:47I'm a liar.
00:30:48I'm a liar.
00:30:51I'm a liar.
00:30:55I'm a liar.
00:30:56I'm a liar.
00:30:57I'm a liar.
00:31:05We knew we needed to get a petition nationwide and my Labour MP suggested going to the Scottish
00:31:12Grand Committee in Inverness, which I'd never heard of. You know, I didn't realise all the
00:31:18Scottish MPs got together roughly once a month to discuss Scottish issues. News to me.
00:31:25We figured that that would be a good opportunity to meet some of the politicians and to convey
00:31:30our message to them, but also to then get that out to a much wider audience through the media presence
00:31:36that would be there. That was when we contacted Mick.
00:31:44I knew Anne because our children went to the same nursery and Sophie had been to at least two
00:31:49parties that her children had had. I'd already started to feel I wanted to say something about
00:31:56guns, so I decided I would go to Inverness.
00:32:02I was incredibly nervous about meeting Mick for the first time since he had lost Sophie,
00:32:09because what do you say? My recollection is that he just held his arms open and we just
00:32:17gave each other a hug.
00:32:24We weren't allowed into the committee, but we were allowed to have a table outside and we were
00:32:30allowed to grab all the MPs on the way in, and some signed and some didn't.
00:32:35Our aims with this petition are for the ordinary British citizens to send a very powerful mandate,
00:32:41if you like, to the government, to the people who...
00:32:44That was the first day that the press picked up properly on what we were doing.
00:32:49We want the aims of this petition to be on the statute books by next spring when the snowdrops bloom
00:32:56again.
00:32:58Michael Forsyth, who was then the Secretary of State for Scotland, strides up to the table,
00:33:03and I say,
00:33:04Would you like to sign it?
00:33:06And he explained he couldn't because of his position and things.
00:33:09And then, whoosh, he was gone.
00:33:15So, first of all, could you just both introduce yourselves?
00:33:19OK, I'm Michael Forsyth.
00:33:20I was Secretary of State for Scotland, which was pre-devolution,
00:33:24so I was pretty well responsible for everything you can think of in Scotland,
00:33:28except Defence and Foreign Affairs.
00:33:29I'm George Robertson, and I lived in Numblain,
00:33:33and I was Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland,
00:33:37so I was the opponent of Michael Forsyth.
00:33:40And we had a pretty fractious relationship.
00:33:43Well, he was determined to put me out of a job,
00:33:46and I was determined to prevent him from doing so, despite the odds.
00:33:54On the 13th of March, both George and I were asked if we wanted to go into the gym.
00:34:06And, you know, without thinking, I said, Yes, of course.
00:34:10And when I went into the gym, I just completely lost it.
00:34:16It was a scene from hell, these little children, still there.
00:34:31I think we both felt that the emergency services have been in,
00:34:35and therefore, as the leaders, we had an obligation to go in.
00:34:41My three children went to Numblain Primary School
00:34:44and had a good and peaceful education,
00:34:47and it's tragic that anyone would want to destroy these tiny toddlers,
00:34:52you know, at the start of their life in this act of violence,
00:34:56and it's... I don't think anybody will ever stand it.
00:34:58It's just an act of wanton evil which will enter the history books.
00:35:04I remember having this overwhelming feeling in the back of my head
00:35:10that if we'd only acted after Hungerford,
00:35:13this would never have happened.
00:35:15I was absolutely determined
00:35:20that we had to ensure that something like that could never happen again.
00:35:30The SnowDop campaign had talked to me about what they wanted.
00:35:35My view was, this was done by someone using weapons
00:35:40which he was authorised to have,
00:35:43and that had to change.
00:35:46But it was a... it was a delicate balance.
00:35:51I was slightly nervous of the publicity
00:35:56because I thought it would kind of stir up the other side.
00:36:00Guns are not bad. People are bad.
00:36:03The purpose of guns is to kill people
00:36:05and to make sure that you kill the right people.
00:36:09Sorry, it's quite clear here that you actually think
00:36:13there are circumstances in this country
00:36:14where you feel you can take the law into your own hands.
00:36:16I believe that I have a right to defend my life and property.
00:36:19And I am greatly disturbed.
00:36:23If you ban a handgun,
00:36:25somebody will go and use a sawn-off shotgun
00:36:27with a lot more destructive effect
00:36:30than was done by these pistols.
00:36:33I mean, there are one or two little girls who are alive
00:36:35because they were shot with a pistol.
00:36:37If they'd have been blasted by a shotgun,
00:36:39God forbid, they would have been dead.
00:36:42There was an entrenched view
00:36:44among some of my Cabinet colleagues
00:36:46that the problem here
00:36:47was that this fellow should never have had a licence
00:36:49rather than legislation as such.
00:36:52The Scottish Secretary has told the Commons
00:36:54that Lord Cullen, who carried out the Piper Alpha inquiry,
00:36:57will head a full investigation into the shootings.
00:37:00We had to have a proper judge-led inquiry
00:37:03so the thing could be properly handled.
00:37:05Let's just see what Cullen comes out with.
00:37:13I went along to the first day of the Cullen inquiry
00:37:17and sat in the public area of the Albert Hall
00:37:20and it was absolutely packed.
00:37:23There would be a lot of information
00:37:25so I decided to go in every day.
00:37:29I forced myself to go to it because I felt I should.
00:37:34John Crozier said,
00:37:35there's a creche upstairs,
00:37:36why don't you bring your little one?
00:37:39And I have this memory of taking my youngest one
00:37:42in her little buggy up the stairs,
00:37:44up to the first floor.
00:37:48There were only two outcomes,
00:37:50as far as we were concerned.
00:37:52There was an outcome that we were satisfied with,
00:37:54there was an outcome that we were not satisfied with.
00:37:56We wanted handguns to be completely banned.
00:38:01I didn't go to the Cullen inquiry
00:38:03because myself and the various volunteers
00:38:07are counting petitions.
00:38:10We had a PO box based in Stirling
00:38:13and when we started,
00:38:14I would pick up a handful of envelopes
00:38:17with petitions in.
00:38:19But there was one day
00:38:21when I went to the sorting office
00:38:23and he said,
00:38:24have you got a car with you?
00:38:27Which I said, yes.
00:38:28And he said,
00:38:28could you bring it to the back door?
00:38:30And he put six bags of envelopes
00:38:34into the back of my car.
00:38:36So at that point,
00:38:37it had just sort of exploded.
00:38:42When we finally counted all the signatures,
00:38:45it came to 705,000,
00:38:48which was astounding
00:38:49because it's pre-internet time,
00:38:53it's pre-mobile phone times.
00:38:55And the British public responded
00:38:56beyond all our expectations.
00:38:59We thought this was our tragedy,
00:39:01that it wasn't just our tragedy,
00:39:02it was a tragedy for the country.
00:39:05Democracy is,
00:39:07let's persuade the people.
00:39:14Dawn in Dunblain.
00:39:16Preparations for a very special delivery.
00:39:19The aims are to deliver to Parliament
00:39:22a significant volume of public opinion
00:39:24that says that we no longer consider
00:39:27that private individuals
00:39:28should legally own handguns.
00:39:32We had boxes and boxes
00:39:34and boxes of petitions.
00:39:35Some of the parents were coming
00:39:36and we all flew down together.
00:39:41When we got to London,
00:39:43we learnt that there was going to be
00:39:44a visit to Princess Diana.
00:39:46A few of us felt uncomfortable about that
00:39:48and that we should be focusing
00:39:50on getting the petition handed in.
00:39:52I remember Jack asking Princess Diana
00:39:55if she was a princess
00:39:57and she said yes
00:39:59and he says,
00:40:01well, where's your crown?
00:40:03And she said,
00:40:04oh, my crown's in my car.
00:40:06And Jack says,
00:40:07well, where's your car?
00:40:10I felt support from her
00:40:13for what we were trying to do.
00:40:18After we'd seen Princess Diana
00:40:20who stopped outside Westminster
00:40:22unloaded all the boxes,
00:40:26we were just making ourselves known
00:40:28that we were there
00:40:29with that number of people
00:40:30having signed the petition
00:40:31that were behind us.
00:40:39The parents have come south
00:40:41a week before Lord Cullen's inquiry
00:40:43into Dumblane finishes.
00:40:45They hope his recommendations
00:40:46will lead to changes
00:40:47in gun laws being made here soon.
00:40:50For three-year-old Jack Crozier,
00:40:52brother of one victim,
00:40:53it was a long day.
00:40:55The snowdrop petition
00:40:57will be presented to the House
00:40:58later this day
00:40:59having achieved
00:41:00three-quarters of a million signatures
00:41:02and I've no doubt
00:41:04that the House
00:41:05and future meetings
00:41:06of the Grand Committee
00:41:06will want to consider
00:41:08these issues in due course.
00:41:11We'd gone through
00:41:12a terrible period of grief
00:41:13and despair
00:41:15and now we had a strong group
00:41:17of people
00:41:17who had a definite objective.
00:41:20So the snowdrop, I think,
00:41:22was the thing
00:41:22that energised everybody.
00:41:27I remember thinking to myself,
00:41:28I'm really going to have to,
00:41:29you know,
00:41:30get involved in this
00:41:31in terms of
00:41:33good and television
00:41:34and it scared me.
00:41:40To me, all guns
00:41:42I now find offensive.
00:41:43I just think
00:41:44they're the tools of the devil.
00:41:46I'm a church man
00:41:46and I feel that
00:41:48guns are
00:41:49just evil.
00:41:51My daughter's right
00:41:52not to be shot
00:41:53by a legally held gun
00:41:56is more important
00:41:57than anybody's right
00:41:58to legally hold that gun.
00:42:02It was so difficult
00:42:03to speak to journalists
00:42:05and to go into television
00:42:08and having lost Emma.
00:42:09I forced myself
00:42:11every time to do it.
00:42:14We learned more and more
00:42:16and became more confident
00:42:18speaking about it.
00:42:19But you have to have
00:42:20a tough skin
00:42:21if you want to
00:42:21put yourself above
00:42:23the parapet.
00:42:25In the Stirling Observer,
00:42:27the editor
00:42:28had an editorial opinion
00:42:30about what we were
00:42:31trying to do.
00:42:33Stirling in chief
00:42:34behind the recent
00:42:35rash of publicity
00:42:36surrounding anti-gun
00:42:37legislation
00:42:38has been
00:42:39John Crozier.
00:42:40Hardly a day goes by
00:42:42without John Crozier
00:42:43being quoted
00:42:43in one or more
00:42:44of the daily newspapers.
00:42:46Sometimes I wonder
00:42:47whether the wider
00:42:48Dunblane community
00:42:49is as fully committed
00:42:50as John Crozier
00:42:51to a total ban
00:42:52on the private
00:42:53ownership of guns,
00:42:54editor.
00:42:57Disgraceful.
00:42:59Absolutely disgraceful.
00:43:10I was living in Dunblane
00:43:12at the time
00:43:12and the families
00:43:13were lobbying
00:43:14so I got a fair amount
00:43:15of the reaction
00:43:16but of course
00:43:17we wanted to help
00:43:18as much as possible.
00:43:21You can't just say
00:43:22lessons over learn.
00:43:23You have to actually
00:43:24do something about it.
00:43:31One night I was
00:43:32working at the
00:43:32dining table
00:43:33and the phone rang
00:43:35and it was George
00:43:36Robertson asking me
00:43:37if I would speak
00:43:38at the Labour Party
00:43:39conference.
00:43:43It was a huge
00:43:44opportunity
00:43:45to get the message
00:43:46nationwide
00:43:47so I said yes
00:43:49and as soon as
00:43:51I'd ended the call
00:43:52I just thought
00:43:53oh help.
00:43:54It was daunting.
00:43:56It's a great privilege
00:43:57to call upon Anne
00:43:58to talk to us today.
00:44:00Anne.
00:44:12Dunblane
00:44:13was a cold
00:44:14premeditated
00:44:16massacre
00:44:17well planned
00:44:18in advance.
00:44:19He went in
00:44:21with 743 bullets
00:44:24enough ammunition
00:44:25to kill everyone
00:44:27in it.
00:44:28He fired at the
00:44:29children and the
00:44:30teachers as if
00:44:32at targets
00:44:33some of which
00:44:34received seven
00:44:35bullets.
00:44:37Some fired at
00:44:38point blank range
00:44:40down into them
00:44:41where they lay
00:44:42injured.
00:44:44He fired at
00:44:45injured children
00:44:46as they tried
00:44:47to crawl away
00:44:48again
00:44:50and again
00:44:51and again
00:44:53and again
00:44:53and again
00:44:54three minutes
00:44:56one pistol
00:44:58105 bullets
00:45:01fired
00:45:0117 dead
00:45:0414 injured
00:45:06and one child
00:45:07who stood
00:45:08and watched
00:45:09it all.
00:45:11A complete
00:45:12handgun ban
00:45:13is the only
00:45:14answer to
00:45:15Dunblane.
00:45:16Dunblane
00:45:17paid the price
00:45:18for compromise
00:45:19after Hungerford.
00:45:21This time
00:45:22there is no
00:45:23compromise.
00:45:24I would like to
00:45:26leave you with
00:45:26this final thought.
00:45:28Yesterday
00:45:29was a little girl's
00:45:30sixth birthday.
00:45:32She got cards
00:45:33and flowers
00:45:34but she wasn't
00:45:35there to blow
00:45:36the candles out
00:45:37on her birthday cake.
00:45:38she was
00:45:40Sophie North.
00:45:42Compromise
00:45:43cost her
00:45:45her life.
00:45:58The harrowing
00:46:00and distressing
00:46:01account of what
00:46:02happened in
00:46:03Dunblane
00:46:03from Anne Pearson
00:46:05heard in silence
00:46:06by delegates here.
00:46:08many of them
00:46:08in tears.
00:46:12She captured
00:46:13the moon.
00:46:17And it struck
00:46:18a chord
00:46:19with the people
00:46:19in the hall
00:46:20and obviously
00:46:21the people
00:46:21outside as well.
00:46:23I don't think
00:46:24I could have
00:46:24delivered that
00:46:25without falling
00:46:26to pieces.
00:46:28I believe
00:46:29that we should
00:46:30ban the private
00:46:31ownership
00:46:31and possession
00:46:32of handguns.
00:46:40we were in the run
00:46:41up to an election
00:46:42we didn't have
00:46:43a huge majority
00:46:44and I realised
00:46:46that in order
00:46:46to get any change
00:46:48in the law
00:46:48while we were
00:46:49in government
00:46:49we would need
00:46:50the support
00:46:51of the Labour Party
00:46:52that is not a
00:46:53comfortable place
00:46:54to be
00:46:54and there was
00:46:55a lot of
00:46:55hostility.
00:46:57People would
00:46:58come up to me
00:46:59friends would
00:46:59come up to me
00:47:00and say
00:47:01you're just doing
00:47:01this to save
00:47:02your seat
00:47:03and frankly
00:47:04it was just
00:47:05offensive.
00:47:08We decided
00:47:09to write
00:47:10to a lot
00:47:11of MPs
00:47:12and this is
00:47:13a reply
00:47:14from Sir
00:47:15Richard Body
00:47:16Tory MP
00:47:17I have
00:47:18several hundred
00:47:18members of
00:47:19gun clubs
00:47:20in my constituency
00:47:21they include
00:47:22doctors
00:47:23solicitors
00:47:24bank managers
00:47:25and lots
00:47:26of middle aged
00:47:27and respectable
00:47:27people
00:47:28including
00:47:29grandmothers
00:47:30which is all
00:47:31grandmothers.
00:47:33Really?
00:47:34It shows you
00:47:35what we were
00:47:35up against.
00:47:40I found out
00:47:41that the House
00:47:42of Lords
00:47:42had a gun
00:47:43range
00:47:44which staggered
00:47:45a lot of people.
00:47:47The MPs
00:47:48who regularly
00:47:49shot on
00:47:50that gun range
00:47:51would have had
00:47:51strong thoughts
00:47:52about what we
00:47:53were trying to do.
00:47:56Somebody from
00:47:57the House of Lords
00:47:58told me that
00:47:59I really should be
00:48:00at home
00:48:01washing dishes
00:48:02hanging the washing
00:48:04out
00:48:04looking after
00:48:05my children
00:48:05and not
00:48:06bothering
00:48:06my silly
00:48:07little head
00:48:08with things
00:48:09that the government
00:48:10could attend to.
00:48:13I mean I don't think
00:48:14it's too strong
00:48:14to say that enemies
00:48:15were made
00:48:16but I don't think
00:48:17anybody ever felt
00:48:19intimidated
00:48:19because the worst
00:48:21thing had already
00:48:22happened to us
00:48:22so my attitude
00:48:23was bring it on.
00:48:31The public inquiry
00:48:32lasted six weeks
00:48:33and had 178 witnesses.
00:48:36The end result
00:48:37three months later
00:48:38is Lord Cullen's
00:48:39200 page report.
00:48:41It was handed
00:48:41to government officials
00:48:42in the early hours
00:48:43of this morning.
00:48:46when the Cullen
00:48:47report came out
00:48:49we were given
00:48:49a room
00:48:50and in that room
00:48:51there were the
00:48:52bereaved parents
00:48:52the parents of the
00:48:53injured
00:48:53and it was packed.
00:48:58We got the report
00:48:59and we sat there
00:49:00and we read the
00:49:01summary
00:49:02and we were
00:49:03very disappointed.
00:49:05Cullen didn't
00:49:06recommend
00:49:06a complete ban.
00:49:08It was to
00:49:09have guns
00:49:10dismantled
00:49:11and be stored
00:49:12in gun clubs.
00:49:14I almost felt
00:49:15Cullen sat on the fence.
00:49:17The Cullen report
00:49:17it was just
00:49:18his recommendations
00:49:19and we needed
00:49:20legislation.
00:49:21The next thing is
00:49:22what's Parliament
00:49:23going to do?
00:49:26I had hoped
00:49:27all along
00:49:28that he would
00:49:29conclude
00:49:29that we should
00:49:30ban handguns
00:49:31but he didn't.
00:49:34That then began
00:49:36the great debate
00:49:37inside the government
00:49:38as to
00:49:39what we were
00:49:39going to do.
00:49:43I made quite a few
00:49:45NMAs among
00:49:45some of my
00:49:46colleagues
00:49:46and one of the
00:49:48biggest issues
00:49:48was our
00:49:49Olympic team
00:49:50and they used
00:49:510.22 pistols
00:49:52so they wanted
00:49:53an exemption
00:49:54so they were
00:49:55able to continue
00:49:56to practice
00:49:57and so
00:49:58in the end
00:49:59I agreed
00:50:00that we would
00:50:01push this through
00:50:01but with an
00:50:02exemption
00:50:03for 0.22 pistols.
00:50:07The package
00:50:07of measures
00:50:08which I have
00:50:09announced today
00:50:10will give this
00:50:11country some of
00:50:12the toughest
00:50:13gun control laws
00:50:15in the world.
00:50:16We will ban
00:50:17all handguns
00:50:18from the home.
00:50:19We will require
00:50:200.22 rimfire
00:50:22handguns
00:50:23to be kept
00:50:24in gun clubs
00:50:25under conditions
00:50:25of the most
00:50:26stringent security.
00:50:270.22 rimfire
00:50:29Now come on
00:50:31then boys
00:50:31sort yourselves
00:50:32out.
00:50:32Mr Morton
00:50:33is reading
00:50:34a prepared
00:50:34statement.
00:50:36As far as
00:50:36I was concerned
00:50:37I felt
00:50:38that we had
00:50:38more than
00:50:39delivered
00:50:40but
00:50:41the parents
00:50:42didn't think
00:50:43it had gone
00:50:44far enough.
00:50:47we have
00:50:48argued all
00:50:48along
00:50:48that this
00:50:49is an issue
00:50:49on which
00:50:50there must
00:50:50be no
00:50:50compromise.
00:50:52What we have
00:50:52before us
00:50:53is exactly
00:50:54that
00:50:54a compromise
00:50:56a compromise
00:50:56that will
00:50:57result in
00:50:57future abuse
00:50:58of the system
00:50:58which will
00:50:59result in
00:51:00the deaths
00:51:00of more
00:51:00innocent people.
00:51:02The fact of
00:51:02the matter
00:51:03is most
00:51:03people thought
00:51:04it was an
00:51:04amazing result
00:51:05because they
00:51:05never thought
00:51:06for a minute
00:51:06that the
00:51:07Conservative
00:51:07government
00:51:08would go
00:51:09anywhere near
00:51:09as far
00:51:09as you did
00:51:11but we
00:51:11strongly
00:51:12believe that
00:51:12it didn't
00:51:13go far
00:51:13enough.
00:51:17I sort
00:51:18of watched
00:51:18from afar
00:51:19full of
00:51:20admiration
00:51:20at the
00:51:22tenacity.
00:51:25I still
00:51:26felt the
00:51:26impossible
00:51:27rawness
00:51:28of what
00:51:28it must
00:51:29be like.
00:51:34It was
00:51:35a moral
00:51:35necessity
00:51:37not to
00:51:37let go
00:51:38of the
00:51:38issue.
00:51:39They had
00:51:40to do it.
00:51:41They were
00:51:42doing it
00:51:42for the
00:51:43people they
00:51:43loved
00:51:44and
00:51:44lost.
00:51:46Can you
00:51:47run this
00:51:48week please?
00:51:51By the
00:51:52end of
00:51:52that press
00:51:52conference
00:51:53I got
00:51:54a little
00:51:54bit
00:51:54emotional
00:51:55because
00:51:55I was
00:51:57angry,
00:51:58I was
00:51:58disappointed,
00:51:59I was
00:51:59tired.
00:52:00I think
00:52:00I'd been
00:52:01up since
00:52:01six o'clock
00:52:02in the
00:52:02morning
00:52:02doing
00:52:02radio
00:52:03phone-ins.
00:52:04was
00:52:05done
00:52:05playing
00:52:05not
00:52:06enough.
00:52:06What
00:52:07more
00:52:07does
00:52:07it
00:52:08take?
00:52:09Are
00:52:09you
00:52:09listening
00:52:10to
00:52:10me
00:52:10because
00:52:10we
00:52:11voted
00:52:11you
00:52:11in
00:52:12and
00:52:12if you
00:52:12don't
00:52:13ban them
00:52:13all we
00:52:14will vote
00:52:15you back
00:52:15out and
00:52:16we'll do
00:52:16all in our
00:52:17power.
00:52:18We are not
00:52:18going to
00:52:19stop.
00:52:19So ban
00:52:20them,
00:52:20point to
00:52:21you to
00:52:21the lot
00:52:22to ban
00:52:23the guns
00:52:23that you
00:52:23should have
00:52:23banned
00:52:24after
00:52:24Hungerford.
00:52:25You won't
00:52:26be in
00:52:26power next
00:52:27year.
00:52:30We weren't
00:52:31about to
00:52:31give up
00:52:31because we
00:52:32knew that
00:52:33we had a
00:52:33huge amount
00:52:34of support
00:52:35from ordinary
00:52:35people.
00:52:36It wasn't
00:52:37over.
00:52:37The fight
00:52:38was on.
00:52:44A new
00:52:45gun lobby
00:52:46is vowing
00:52:46to take
00:52:47on MPs
00:52:47who back
00:52:48the government's
00:52:49plans to ban
00:52:50powerful handguns.
00:52:51The pro-gun
00:52:51lobby went
00:52:52on the march.
00:52:53A wax-jacketed
00:52:54army united
00:52:55in their
00:52:55opposition to
00:52:56the firearms
00:52:56bill.
00:52:57The government
00:52:58have made
00:52:59a political
00:52:59point on
00:53:00the backs
00:53:00of the
00:53:01parents of
00:53:01the Dunblane
00:53:02children.
00:53:04These gun
00:53:05lobby people
00:53:05were passionate.
00:53:06They were
00:53:07very well
00:53:07organised
00:53:08and very
00:53:08wealthy.
00:53:09Frankly,
00:53:10I think
00:53:10Snowdrop
00:53:10has been
00:53:11irresponsible
00:53:11in the
00:53:12position it's
00:53:13put.
00:53:13It is
00:53:13pretending
00:53:14to the
00:53:14public
00:53:14that it
00:53:15has a
00:53:15magic
00:53:15answer
00:53:16to
00:53:16what is
00:53:17in truth
00:53:17a very
00:53:17complicated
00:53:18problem.
00:53:19I have to
00:53:19cut you
00:53:19off there.
00:53:20A brief
00:53:20word from
00:53:20Eurosme.
00:53:21I think
00:53:21we have
00:53:22taken all
00:53:23our
00:53:23evidence
00:53:23from
00:53:23Lord
00:53:24Cullen's
00:53:24inquiry
00:53:24and
00:53:25you
00:53:25were
00:53:25having
00:53:26to
00:53:26come
00:53:26up
00:53:26with
00:53:26answers
00:53:27to
00:53:27a
00:53:27very
00:53:28strong
00:53:28gun
00:53:28lobby
00:53:29who
00:53:29were
00:53:29campaigning
00:53:30against
00:53:30any
00:53:30change.
00:53:31They said
00:53:32I had
00:53:32fundraised
00:53:33for the
00:53:33IRA.
00:53:35They said
00:53:35I had
00:53:35convictions
00:53:36for
00:53:36non-payment
00:53:37of poll
00:53:37tax.
00:53:38And I
00:53:39think
00:53:39one said
00:53:40that I
00:53:41had been
00:53:41a
00:53:41prostitute.
00:53:43We
00:53:44started
00:53:44getting
00:53:45hate
00:53:45mail.
00:53:48The
00:53:48zeal to
00:53:49widespread
00:53:50distress and
00:53:51destruction
00:53:51exposes your
00:53:53true character
00:53:53that of a
00:53:55nasty, spiteful,
00:53:56vociferous
00:53:57persecutor of
00:53:58the innocent.
00:53:59That's us they're
00:54:00referring to.
00:54:01To the British
00:54:02tradition of
00:54:03tolerance and
00:54:03fairness to all,
00:54:04your festering
00:54:05mind is
00:54:06treacherously
00:54:07offending.
00:54:13I
00:54:14found it
00:54:14sad that
00:54:15the death
00:54:16of 16
00:54:17kids and
00:54:18a teacher
00:54:18isn't enough
00:54:19to totally
00:54:20ban all
00:54:20guns.
00:54:24I
00:54:25sometimes
00:54:25think it
00:54:25will be
00:54:26Jack's
00:54:26generation.
00:54:27It will
00:54:27be the
00:54:28generation
00:54:29of politicians
00:54:30who
00:54:30will
00:54:30remove
00:54:31the
00:54:31gun.
00:54:32So what
00:54:32would you
00:54:33say to
00:54:33the people
00:54:33that this
00:54:34happens
00:54:34to next?
00:54:36That
00:54:37were
00:54:37doing our
00:54:38best to
00:54:38salute
00:54:38any guns
00:54:39and we'll
00:54:39continue to
00:54:40do our
00:54:40best for
00:54:40as long
00:54:40as we
00:54:41can.
00:54:52The
00:54:52government
00:54:53made a
00:54:53judgement
00:54:53on the
00:54:54right
00:54:54way
00:54:54to
00:54:55implement
00:54:55the
00:54:55Cullen
00:54:55Report.
00:54:56It
00:54:56proposes
00:54:57to stand
00:54:57by that
00:54:58judgement,
00:54:58lay it
00:54:59before the
00:54:59House
00:54:59of
00:55:00Commons
00:55:00and
00:55:00invite
00:55:01it
00:55:01to
00:55:01support
00:55:01it.
00:55:03It
00:55:04was
00:55:04announced
00:55:04that
00:55:04there
00:55:04would
00:55:05be
00:55:05a
00:55:05vote
00:55:05in
00:55:06Parliament.
00:55:07We
00:55:07knew
00:55:07it
00:55:08would
00:55:08probably
00:55:08be
00:55:08the
00:55:09last
00:55:09chance
00:55:09to
00:55:10get
00:55:10the
00:55:10total
00:55:10ban.
00:55:11OK,
00:55:12here
00:55:12we
00:55:12go.
00:55:13We
00:55:13were in
00:55:18London
00:55:18lobbying MPs
00:55:20to get
00:55:20them to
00:55:21vote for
00:55:21the
00:55:22full-hand
00:55:22gun
00:55:22ban,
00:55:23including
00:55:23the
00:55:23.22s.
00:55:24I
00:55:25know
00:55:25we're
00:55:25very,
00:55:25very
00:55:25close.
00:55:26All
00:55:26it
00:55:26needs
00:55:26is
00:55:27a
00:55:27few
00:55:27particularly
00:55:28Conservative
00:55:28MPs
00:55:29to
00:55:30abstain
00:55:30or vote
00:55:31with us.
00:55:31MPs
00:55:32will
00:55:32be
00:55:32voting
00:55:32in
00:55:33a
00:55:33few
00:55:33hours
00:55:33time
00:55:34to
00:55:34decide
00:55:34how
00:55:35stringent
00:55:35our
00:55:36gun
00:55:36laws
00:55:36should
00:55:37be.
00:55:37We
00:55:37hope
00:55:37that
00:55:38our
00:55:38colleagues
00:55:39of
00:55:39whatever
00:55:39party
00:55:40today
00:55:40are
00:55:41capable
00:55:41of
00:55:41rising
00:55:42to
00:55:42the
00:55:42occasion
00:55:43and
00:55:43not
00:55:43leaving
00:55:44any
00:55:44loopholes
00:55:45behind.
00:55:45Order!
00:55:47Order!
00:55:47I
00:55:48don't
00:55:48think
00:55:48I've
00:55:48ever
00:55:49been
00:55:49so
00:55:49stressed
00:55:50about
00:55:50anything.
00:55:53The
00:55:53eyes
00:55:54to
00:55:54the
00:55:54right
00:55:54were
00:55:56281,
00:55:57the
00:55:58nose
00:55:58to
00:55:58the
00:55:58left
00:55:59306,
00:56:00so the
00:56:01nose
00:56:01cabbie.
00:56:03I
00:56:06remember
00:56:07just
00:56:08feeling
00:56:08hugely
00:56:09disappointed
00:56:10that the
00:56:11vote had
00:56:11failed.
00:56:13It
00:56:13meant
00:56:14there
00:56:14was no
00:56:14chance
00:56:14under
00:56:15that
00:56:15parliament
00:56:16that a
00:56:16complete
00:56:17ban
00:56:17would
00:56:17get
00:56:18introduced.
00:56:22We
00:56:22just
00:56:22wanted
00:56:22a
00:56:23free
00:56:23vote
00:56:23but
00:56:24it
00:56:24was
00:56:24a
00:56:24three-line
00:56:24whip
00:56:25because
00:56:25John
00:56:26Major
00:56:26ordered
00:56:27all
00:56:27the
00:56:27Conservative
00:56:28MPs
00:56:29to
00:56:29vote
00:56:29against
00:56:30the
00:56:31total
00:56:31ban.
00:56:35I
00:56:35would
00:56:35certainly
00:56:36think
00:56:36I'd
00:56:36be
00:56:36voting
00:56:37for
00:56:37another
00:56:37party
00:56:37after
00:56:38the
00:56:38vote
00:56:38last
00:56:39night.
00:56:39Would
00:56:39you
00:56:39change
00:56:40the
00:56:40party
00:56:41you
00:56:41vote
00:56:41for?
00:56:42Yes
00:56:42I
00:56:42would.
00:56:42You
00:56:43vote
00:56:43for
00:56:43gun
00:56:43ban.
00:56:44Yes
00:56:44I
00:56:44would.
00:56:46Really
00:56:47we've
00:56:47put
00:56:47all
00:56:48our
00:56:48other
00:56:48family
00:56:49life
00:56:50to
00:56:50one
00:56:50side
00:56:51to
00:56:51do
00:56:51the
00:56:52campaign
00:56:52so
00:56:53to
00:56:53a
00:56:53large
00:56:53extent
00:56:54we
00:56:54do
00:56:54have
00:56:54to
00:56:55draw
00:56:55back.
00:56:56It was
00:56:57difficult.
00:56:57I
00:56:58left
00:56:58feeling
00:56:59deflated.
00:57:00I
00:57:00was
00:57:01disappointed.
00:57:08It's
00:57:08now
00:57:09Wednesday
00:57:10afternoon.
00:57:12Yeah
00:57:12no
00:57:12I'm
00:57:13talking
00:57:13about
00:57:13Tuesday
00:57:13afternoon.
00:57:16I'm
00:57:16feeling a bit
00:57:17better now.
00:57:18I've had a bit
00:57:18of therapy.
00:57:20Self-help
00:57:21therapy.
00:57:25I quite
00:57:26like decorating
00:57:26because it
00:57:27helps me
00:57:28sort of
00:57:28think.
00:57:31Decorate
00:57:31this
00:57:32going
00:57:32therapeutic.
00:57:35I was
00:57:36really getting
00:57:36worked up
00:57:36earlier on
00:57:37there.
00:57:38Hate feeling
00:57:39like that.
00:57:42You know
00:57:43pacing about
00:57:43and that
00:57:44what I'll do
00:57:44what I'll do
00:57:45this
00:57:45do that.
00:57:46End up
00:57:47trying everything.
00:57:50So for
00:57:51an hour
00:57:51I just
00:57:52papered
00:57:53and pasted
00:57:54away there.
00:58:09this video
00:58:10camera here
00:58:10I think you
00:58:11can really
00:58:12see a
00:58:12wee bit
00:58:12better.
00:58:13You know
00:58:14what's
00:58:14what.
00:58:17So I'm not
00:58:18a basket case
00:58:18just quite
00:58:19but
00:58:25I'm determined
00:58:25not to become
00:58:26one either.
00:58:46well this is
00:58:47Rhodes Show Music
00:58:48in Stirling.
00:58:49Towards the end
00:58:50of 1996
00:58:51I got a call
00:58:52from a friend
00:58:53who asked me
00:58:54to go into
00:58:55Ted Christopher's
00:58:56music shop
00:58:57because he had
00:58:58produced
00:58:59Knocking on Heaven's
00:59:00Door a tape
00:59:01of it where he had
00:59:02altered the words
00:59:02and started off
00:59:04as a protest
00:59:06record about
00:59:07guns
00:59:07and Ted says
00:59:08we need to get
00:59:09permission from
00:59:10Bob Dylan
00:59:11to change the
00:59:11words.
00:59:1224 hours later
00:59:14he got a
00:59:15fax through
00:59:16from Bob Dylan's
00:59:18manager to say
00:59:19that on this
00:59:19one occasion
00:59:20and because of
00:59:21the reason you
00:59:21want to do it
00:59:22Mr Dylan's going
00:59:23to allow you to
00:59:24change the words
00:59:25of his music.
00:59:28The record
00:59:29of reworking
00:59:29of Bob Dylan
00:59:30Knocking on Heaven's
00:59:31Door
00:59:31has been recorded
00:59:32with the children
00:59:33of Dunblane.
00:59:34They were mostly
00:59:35siblings,
00:59:36cousins,
00:59:37friends.
00:59:37Everybody had
00:59:38a connection.
00:59:39The kids recorded
00:59:40the song
00:59:40at Abbey Road
00:59:41and they were buzzing.
00:59:45Well,
00:59:46here we are
00:59:47in the
00:59:47Top of the Pops
00:59:48recording studio.
00:59:49The kids are just
00:59:50about to have
00:59:51their first rehearsal.
00:59:54Top of the Pops
00:59:56face!
00:59:59We've met
01:00:00boys only
01:00:01and made
01:00:01the Spice Girls.
01:00:03All that rubbish.
01:00:05They loved it.
01:00:06An exclusive
01:00:07from the musicians
01:00:08and the children
01:00:09of Dunblane.
01:00:11But these guns
01:00:13have caused
01:00:14too much pain
01:00:18This town
01:00:19will never
01:00:20be the same
01:00:25So for the
01:00:27parents of
01:00:28Dunblane
01:00:32We ask
01:00:33please
01:00:34never again
01:00:39Knock, knock, knock
01:00:41knocking on
01:00:41every storm
01:00:46Knock, knock, knock
01:00:48in our
01:00:48every storm
01:00:53We love
01:00:54knocking on
01:00:55every storm
01:01:05It was the most fun
01:01:08that we could have
01:01:09had at that time
01:01:11It was absolutely
01:01:12fantastic
01:01:21fantastic
01:01:22When the official charts
01:01:23were counted down
01:01:24I just wanted to record
01:01:26the reaction of the kids
01:01:27when they found out
01:01:28they were at number one
01:01:29Straight into the top
01:01:31of the official UK Top 40
01:01:33Knock it on heaven's door
01:01:41It was absolutely magical
01:01:44to see the delight
01:01:45in our faces
01:01:54While the celebrations
01:01:56in Dunblane
01:01:57continued
01:01:57Sportsman Association's
01:01:59Mike Yardley
01:02:00hit out
01:02:00I'm sure the kids
01:02:01look great
01:02:02and sound great
01:02:03I'm not at all surprised
01:02:04the records reach
01:02:04number one
01:02:05But the point is
01:02:07you shouldn't try
01:02:08and manipulate
01:02:08the political process
01:02:09by means of a pop song
01:02:11I think this is
01:02:12in poor taste
01:02:12I think it's bad
01:02:14for the kids involved
01:02:15and I think it's likely
01:02:16to put politicians
01:02:17under pressure
01:02:17to make bad law
01:02:19There might be
01:02:20some who are saying
01:02:20there shouldn't be going on
01:02:22there shouldn't be a record
01:02:22there shouldn't be a celebration
01:02:24Well
01:02:26we celebrate our children's lives
01:02:27as well as we can
01:02:28in every way we can
01:02:30and for me personally
01:02:32this is a celebration
01:02:33I consider this
01:02:34to be an achievement
01:02:35It's been something
01:02:36we've found therapeutic
01:02:38we think it's positive
01:02:39and it's been fun
01:02:42Thank you John
01:02:43Well done mate
01:02:47I thought I'd be guilty
01:02:49enjoying myself so much
01:02:50because for me
01:02:52I couldn't shake off
01:02:53in my head
01:02:54the reason
01:02:55that we're doing this
01:03:03I've seen it
01:03:04the TV cameras are away
01:03:05of an anti-gun song
01:03:07at number one
01:03:07in the popular music charts
01:03:09how do you really feel
01:03:10about that?
01:03:12What I think about the song
01:03:13is the words of the song
01:03:15the message
01:03:19and it makes me think
01:03:26of anyone
01:03:27I think the word
01:03:30is sickened
01:03:32by these people
01:03:32who went through the songs
01:03:34Well I've seen the paper today
01:03:36a member of the school board
01:03:37describes it as
01:03:38mockish
01:03:39I had to look up
01:03:40mockish in the dictionary
01:03:41You know John
01:03:41I don't even know
01:03:42what mockish means
01:03:43Well I had to look up
01:03:44the dictionary this morning
01:03:44so it means
01:03:46weakly sentimental
01:03:48I'm sentimental
01:03:49I tell you what
01:03:50I'm very sentimental
01:03:52I used to have
01:03:53a five year old
01:03:53dozer who will be six now
01:03:54I'm very sentimental
01:03:56about her
01:03:57if that's what
01:03:57mockish means
01:03:59I'm guilty
01:04:00You know what
01:04:01I will always be guilty
01:04:03of being mockish
01:04:04about anyone
01:04:19By the time
01:04:20we got into
01:04:211997
01:04:22the snow dropped
01:04:24to come back
01:04:25and we had
01:04:26new firearms legislation
01:04:28in the UK
01:04:29but it wasn't
01:04:30what we wanted
01:04:36We'd managed
01:04:37to get legislation
01:04:38on the Statue Book
01:04:39in quite challenging
01:04:40circumstances
01:04:41but
01:04:43in the run up
01:04:44to an election
01:04:44you know
01:04:45there was all
01:04:45to play for
01:04:48The Conservatives
01:04:49are third
01:04:49in Scottish polls
01:04:50We will give
01:04:51our Members of Parliament
01:04:52a free vote
01:04:53on banning
01:04:54all handguns
01:04:58I took my camera
01:05:00along to account
01:05:00at Michael Forsyth's
01:05:02constituency
01:05:02in Stirling
01:05:16Michael Forsyth got
01:05:17voted out
01:05:18Scotland turned red
01:05:20and Tories were
01:05:21voting out of Scotland
01:05:24I knew we were
01:05:25going to be defeated
01:05:26at the election
01:05:27but I felt
01:05:28we could be
01:05:29respected for
01:05:30how we tried
01:05:31to handle
01:05:32an appalling
01:05:33situation
01:05:34I had a couple
01:05:35of run-ins
01:05:35with Michael Forsyth
01:05:37which I later
01:05:38regretted
01:05:39because I felt
01:05:40I had acted
01:05:40a bit disrespectfully
01:05:41His influence
01:05:43moved the argument
01:05:45in our direction
01:05:47There was quite
01:05:48a lot of criticism
01:05:49by people
01:05:50on both sides
01:05:50of this argument
01:05:51of Michael Howard
01:05:52and John Major
01:05:54This change
01:05:54would not have
01:05:55been possible
01:05:56without their
01:05:58support
01:06:02A new dawn
01:06:03has broken
01:06:04has it not
01:06:06We had a new
01:06:07prime minister
01:06:08and with that
01:06:09the final step
01:06:17This is John
01:06:18we are reporting
01:06:19for the Dunway Echo
01:06:21Within two weeks
01:06:23of winning the election
01:06:24Tony Blair
01:06:25invited all the parents
01:06:27down to Downing Street
01:06:28and of course
01:06:29John took his camera
01:06:32We're in the patio
01:06:34behind the cabinet
01:06:35room at Downing Street
01:06:36First time I've ever
01:06:37been here
01:06:45Do you want to say
01:06:46anything John?
01:06:47It's been a lovely day
01:06:48It's been a wonderful day
01:06:50Good evening
01:06:51I'm delighted
01:06:51by the finalist
01:06:52I shout to the others
01:06:53that he will see
01:06:54these
01:06:55as a fan
01:06:56through Parliament
01:06:57in one way
01:06:58or another
01:07:06Tony Blair
01:07:07has promised
01:07:08a free vote
01:07:09on the issue
01:07:09and with most
01:07:10Labour MPs
01:07:12in favour of a ban
01:07:13it's almost certain
01:07:14to become law
01:07:15The families of Dunblane
01:07:17have won
01:07:17a major battle
01:07:19Well done everybody
01:07:20I got a close one of joy
01:07:23I didn't feel like
01:07:25I've done it
01:07:26I just felt
01:07:26thank goodness
01:07:27that I don't have to
01:07:28keep maintaining
01:07:29this argument
01:07:31any longer
01:07:35And here we have
01:07:36the crew
01:07:37outside the Red Lion
01:07:40It was very much
01:07:41a collective effort
01:07:42Well here's a rubble
01:07:44There's a rubble
01:07:45Yeah right
01:07:47Finally there was
01:07:48going to be some change
01:07:54It's hard to think
01:07:55of anything
01:07:55in terms of winning
01:07:56and losing
01:07:57when you've lost
01:07:57your only child
01:08:00This has been
01:08:01something that's
01:08:01important for us
01:08:02to do
01:08:02but I'm never
01:08:03going to see it
01:08:03as some kind
01:08:04of victory
01:08:14After we'd got
01:08:15the change
01:08:15in the law
01:08:16we went back
01:08:17to our lives
01:08:18I mean I went
01:08:18back to work
01:08:19I hadn't weeded
01:08:20my garden
01:08:21for a year
01:08:22and a half
01:08:22so
01:08:23We moved house
01:08:24and went
01:08:26ex-directory
01:08:27I just wanted
01:08:28to be
01:08:30somebody's mum
01:08:31picking up
01:08:32children from school
01:08:47I don't think
01:08:48you don't see me
01:08:50Hey
01:08:51Oh
01:08:53That's a first time
01:08:54I'm like
01:08:55I'm like
01:08:55You want to stand
01:08:56beside me
01:08:57sister?
01:08:58You want to be
01:08:59cutter?
01:08:59Oh that's good
01:09:01I'm not doing
01:09:01just
01:09:03I can remember
01:09:08the camera
01:09:08being glued
01:09:08to his shoulder
01:09:09for our entire
01:09:10childhood
01:09:10you know
01:09:11that camera
01:09:12went everywhere
01:09:12Just going to
01:09:13sleep here tonight
01:09:16Kick a boost
01:09:19Let me see
01:09:19your big smiles
01:09:21There's videos
01:09:22of like
01:09:22me growing
01:09:23into my face
01:09:24from being a newborn
01:09:25to like one years old
01:09:30Why don't you like
01:09:31guns?
01:09:32Because
01:09:33they're bad
01:09:34Why are they bad?
01:09:36Because
01:09:36they kill people
01:09:38Who do you know
01:09:39that's being killed
01:09:40by a gun?
01:09:41I am not killed
01:09:43With a gun?
01:09:45Yes
01:09:53It's just that
01:09:54it says a lot
01:09:55about dad
01:09:55I suppose
01:09:55doesn't it
01:09:56That's the
01:09:57type of person
01:09:58that he was
01:09:58that
01:09:59he wanted to
01:10:00talk about it
01:10:00He wanted to
01:10:01make sure that
01:10:01I knew what happened
01:10:02He wanted to
01:10:02make sure that
01:10:05Yeah
01:10:06I can imagine
01:10:09that's where
01:10:10my strong feelings
01:10:11for this came from
01:10:12up until today
01:10:15Jack and Ellie
01:10:17have used their
01:10:18platform to support
01:10:19other grieving
01:10:20families in America
01:10:21This shooting
01:10:22led to
01:10:23stricter gun
01:10:23applause
01:10:24and
01:10:24safe noise
01:10:29I am the
01:10:30clear difference
01:10:30of what happens
01:10:31with gun control
01:10:32because I'm 28
01:10:34I've got a life
01:10:35and a career
01:10:36and I'm happy
01:10:37My sister grew up
01:10:39in a society
01:10:39that didn't have
01:10:40appropriate gun
01:10:40control legislation
01:10:41and she is not here
01:10:46Jack and Ellie
01:10:47astonish me
01:10:48in how articulate
01:10:49they can be
01:10:50and how committed
01:10:51they are
01:10:51I'm very proud of them
01:10:57If the Snowdrop
01:10:59campaign
01:10:59hadn't started
01:11:00it is hard
01:11:01to know
01:11:02how things
01:11:03would have unfolded
01:11:04You're right
01:11:04I've got the greatest
01:11:06admiration
01:11:06for those three women
01:11:07Absolutely
01:11:13I would like to think
01:11:14that our campaign
01:11:15and the success
01:11:16of it
01:11:16has saved lives
01:11:18Who are these lives
01:11:19we don't know
01:11:20but
01:11:22I'd like to believe that
01:11:24Let's get these
01:11:25trainers on
01:11:27Right
01:11:29One of my daughters
01:11:30has got two kids
01:11:31and the three and a half
01:11:33year old
01:11:33reminds me so much
01:11:35of Emily
01:11:35A beautiful hat
01:11:37with a bubble
01:11:38Right
01:11:39Let's go
01:11:39I take her to school
01:11:41a couple of mornings
01:11:42a week
01:11:42and we literally
01:11:43walk within feet
01:11:45of where
01:11:46the gym was
01:11:53I'm sure that people
01:11:54who are aware
01:11:55of what happened
01:11:56would never want
01:11:57to see anything
01:11:58like that happen
01:11:58in this country
01:11:59ever again
01:12:28Let's go
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