00:07Ευχαριστώ.
00:40Yes, lovely to join you.
00:42My personal opinion then and remains that we should have stayed in the EU,
00:47but that is completely separate from the process, the legal process and the constitutional requirements.
00:52And my case is the first against Miller one against Mrs May,
00:56was because she was trying to trigger Article 50 to leave the European Union to begin that process by bypassing
01:04Parliament.
01:04And on the second occasion, exactly the same, Boris Johnson, the prime minister,
01:09was going to try and close down Parliament, what we call prorogation, for a long period of time,
01:14which again would have meant that Parliament would have no say and we would crash out with a no deal,
01:19both of which are prime ministers putting themselves above the law.
01:22So irrespective of my personal support for remaining,
01:27this was very much more about the process and ensuring the prime ministers could not put themselves above the law.
01:34Because we have, ironically, if you remember, everyone talking about parliamentary sovereignty,
01:38it was about defending parliamentary sovereignty.
01:42And 10 years on from the referendum,
01:43Can you paint a picture of where it's left the country, both economically and politically?
01:49It's been a decade of decline.
01:52Unfortunately, there was no plan, which is always something I suspected,
01:57that the Brexiteers, the Leavers, had no plan for what would happen if they had won.
02:02And that has unfortunately played out in the fact that there is a confirmation that our economy has been damaged
02:08by around four to five.
02:10Actually, now most economists say it's about five percent GDP.
02:14We have a real lack of foreign investment into the UK.
02:18I mean, there is almost non-existent foreign investment in the UK.
02:21We have instability in our politics.
02:24We have now, instead of the traditional two-party systems,
02:26we very much now have a five-party system.
02:30And the country has become more divided.
02:32I mean, Brexit, the whole referendum, the dishonesty and the way the division that was sown has damaged our country.
02:40So it is now a place that is a very much a populist country.
02:44So my view now is about what happens for the next 10 years.
02:48So we have to look forwards.
02:50And I'm hoping for a leader, now that our prime minister has resigned,
02:54and I'm hoping that a new leader of the Labour Party has a plan and a strategy
02:59and can give some clarity on the direction of travel, on our relationship with Europe
03:05from the point of view of our economy, prosperity, defence, which is so important,
03:10and also tackling the big issues such as AI and the environment.
03:15And before we look forward, just to finish looking backwards,
03:18from your perspective, what are some of the biggest lies about Brexit that never came true?
03:22and, in contrast, have any promises?
03:27The biggest lie was about Turkey joining.
03:29Those posters that leave remained that we would have hundreds of thousands of people coming across our border.
03:35I mean, they were fabricated lies and they were images that were generated that were not true.
03:40The idea that leaving the EU would suddenly solve all our domestic issues,
03:46it was just an excuse, a cowardly excuse for putting off the real hard work that needs to be done.
03:52When it comes to the domestic issues that we had and were deepened after the global financial crisis,
03:58the lies on that it would end immigration, all it's done.
04:02And we can see that, you know, we've had the highest levels of legal migration post-Brexit
04:08than we have ever had, you know, close to, well, depending on your figure,
04:13somewhere between 600,000 and a million people that are ex-EU.
04:16So the idea when I was going around the country that was being sold by Brexiters is,
04:21leave the EU, stop our migration problems.
04:25It was a lie.
04:26And then the 350 million that we would save for the NHS was a lie.
04:30There were so many of them.
04:33Do you believe that the Labour government has made positive strides
04:36when it comes to mending its relationship with the EU?
04:38And do you think that Starmer's resignation will weaken ties
04:42or be an opportunity to strengthen them further?
04:45I have been very disappointed that Prime Minister Starmer was much not clearer
04:50on what he called about his realigning.
04:53I don't understand the not agreeing to a youth mobility scheme
04:56when we have one with 13 other countries
04:58and restoring that opportunity for our young people.
05:02the idea of not pursuing a much closer relationship in a formal way.
05:07To my mind, the door is open on a Swiss-type agreement,
05:11and I think that's something we should be very clear about.
05:13And I think rather than cherry-picking here, there, and everywhere
05:17in tiny little steps, I'm hoping the opportunity is there for the new leader,
05:21a new leader to be much bolder and talk about alignment.
05:25As I said, from my personal point of view,
05:27I think what is achievable before the next general election,
05:30because we've got reform, you know, lurking over our British politics
05:33and possibly a reform-type government after the next general election,
05:38that to me is Swiss-style agreement.
05:40We have got to do something like that,
05:42to make sure that the door is kept open to one day perhaps rejoining,
05:46because that's what I'd like to see.
05:47But I don't think we have the political bandwidth
05:49in either Europe or the UK to be talking about that right now.
05:53And how positively do you feel about the upcoming UK EU reset talks?
05:58from your perspective, what's lacking in these talks with the EU,
06:02both in terms of political will and concrete measures?
06:06I think on our side, it is that the red lines are nonsensical to me,
06:11such as, as I said, I mentioned the youth mobility scheme.
06:14I think it's great that we're going to have some of the changes
06:16when it comes to agriculture and reducing of some of the red tape,
06:21but it's not enough.
06:21Our businesses are on the floor.
06:24You know, we need much more.
06:25We need a relationship that actually reverses some of the damage
06:29when it comes to the paperwork, the burden on businesses
06:31that will attract foreign investment
06:34and will actually stop the drift towards lower regulation
06:38where too many of our politicians on the right want us to go to.
06:42So I think it's really important that we have those closer relationships.
06:45And do you believe that there's a chance
06:46that Brexit could ever be reversed?
06:49And if not, why?
06:50And if so, in what time frame?
06:53I think the process, you know, we have,
06:55this is not about surrender when I say that it's not rejoining
06:59maybe sometime in the future.
07:00It's about the reality of where we are.
07:03The reality is that there are other people ahead of the queue.
07:05Why should we be given special treatment?
07:07And there are other member states who are ahead of,
07:09or other countries ahead of us.
07:11Secondly, we would have to have,
07:13I think, much more of the population in the UK wanting it.
07:17The figures are for rejoin,
07:19but I don't believe that there is enough of the population.
07:22It is not a big enough gap yet.
07:25And also the time.
07:26We are facing so many crises geopolitically in the world
07:30that I don't think we have a time for our parliaments,
07:35both in the EU and the UK,
07:37to be occupied with negotiating a rejoining deal.
07:40It would take out all the energy that's needed elsewhere.
07:42And you decided to take the government to court
07:45over its handling of Brexit,
07:47which made you kind of public enemy number one for Brexiteers.
07:50But from your perspective,
07:52would you say there's a culture of political apathy in the UK
07:55compared to European neighbours?
07:58The one positive,
08:00if there is one positive from Brexit,
08:03is that as a country,
08:04ordinary people in the street
08:05didn't really talk about politics as they do in Europe,
08:08as you do in your European member states.
08:09now people are much more engaged.
08:12And that's why we are seeing so many of the new parties
08:15that are coming up.
08:17And, you know,
08:17Greens party doing so well,
08:19the new extreme right party restore.
08:22People are more engaged.
08:23And that is a positive
08:24because actually a healthy democracy
08:25requires people to be more engaged.
08:27That said,
08:28it is also very divisive politics.
08:31So, you know,
08:32there's good and bad to that.
08:33But I think the problem is
08:36that we don't have politicians with courage.
08:39We do not have politicians
08:41that are spelling out the difficulties of where we are,
08:44not just to do with Europe,
08:45because there are so many economic
08:47and domestic problems that we have in the UK.
08:51You know,
08:52they're not sort of telling people honest truth
08:55about where we are
08:56and the hard choices we need to make
08:58to get to a better place.
09:00and that includes increasing,
09:03you know,
09:04we can't do very much
09:05if we don't have money in the coffers.
09:07One of the things we need to do
09:09is to ensure that we have,
09:10we can increase our GDP
09:11and investment from abroad.
09:14And the markets and investors,
09:16if there was a plan that they could see,
09:18not just people in the UK,
09:20that sense of stability
09:22and direction of travel
09:24would actually increase
09:26the confidence that people have.
09:29And at the moment,
09:30very few people,
09:31be it businesses,
09:32investors and the public themselves,
09:34have confidence in our politicians.
09:36And you faced a huge torrent of online abuse
09:38when you took the government to court over Brexit
09:41and this led you to be protected
09:42by an anti-terrorism brigade.
09:45How dangerous has it been for you
09:46to be an outspoken critic of Brexit?
09:49And do you believe that there's still a risk
09:51in being this outspoken today?
09:54Unfortunately,
09:55you know,
09:55it came with death threats
09:57and, you know,
09:58the vilest people went to prison
09:59because of the death threats against me.
10:02It was not something I ever envisaged.
10:04I mean,
10:05I knew there would be a backlash,
10:06but I didn't think it would be
10:07of such a violent nature
10:09and such an abusive nature.
10:11and I'm afraid
10:12as the anniversary,
10:14the 10th anniversary now means it,
10:16because for a long time,
10:16nobody,
10:17the B word was not mentioned by politicians.
10:20It was,
10:20they were too frightened to mention it.
10:22Now with the anniversary this week,
10:25since last week,
10:25they have done
10:26and the abuse has increased
10:27that I've been receiving.
10:29And oddly enough,
10:30I'm getting it from both sides this time.
10:31I'm getting it from the leavers
10:33because they're saying,
10:34oh,
10:34she's going to try it,
10:35you know,
10:35their hatred hasn't gone away.
10:38and I'm afraid
10:38the Reform and Restore Party,
10:41because they are whipping up
10:42all the anti-migrant
10:44and the divisions in our country
10:46and the anti-EU settlement sentiment,
10:49then that I get a backlash
10:50that it has a consequence for me.
10:52But also the Remainers
10:54are not happy with me either
10:55because they think
10:56we could just rejoin tomorrow,
10:57you know,
10:57and so I take a pragmatic line
11:02and I believe we have to look at process
11:05and we have to be honest
11:06about what that process means to people
11:08and that tends to be
11:10a very unpopular place to be
11:13from either side.
11:14But I think it's important
11:16that someone fills that gap
11:17and I will carry on doing that
11:19because we cannot get to a better place
11:21until we talk about what is needed.
11:23And I have to say,
11:25whatever happens next
11:26cannot be sneaked through the back door.
11:29And that's one of the things
11:30I think was wrong
11:31that the Prime Minister Starmer
11:33was talking about.
11:34It was a change that would be done
11:36through what's called
11:37secondary legislation
11:38so it wouldn't be debated
11:39in Parliament.
11:40As I said,
11:41and I defended
11:41the parliamentary sovereignty,
11:44I think any realignment
11:45and changes that come
11:46in the future
11:46need to be transparent
11:48and in the open
11:50and debated by Parliament.
11:51It can't be
11:51through the back door.
11:53Thank you very much,
11:54Gina Miller,
11:54for joining us on Euronews.
11:56and VOCN.
12:00Thanks,
12:00Thank you,
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