00:00We are meeting and talking at a moment where there is a lot of focus here in Europe on the
00:04decision by the U.S. to impose export controls on anthropic models, and Europe is feeling the impact of that.
00:10And it's a reminder of the questions around sovereignty, particularly around AI, and you are pushing hard on this.
00:16What is your message to Brussels? What is it that Europe needs to do to ensure that it is not
00:21vulnerable to those kind of supply chain risks?
00:24Well, I think indeed there's a lot of discussion around that, and sovereignty has become a key word because people
00:31realize that strategically, if you don't have a big enough part of a certain ecosystem, in this case, AI, you're
00:38going to be exposed to the goodwill of other parties.
00:42But I think what's very important to understand when it comes to sovereignty is to get sovereignty, you need innovation
00:49first.
00:49You have to do things in the right order.
00:52It's not enough to say I want sovereignty.
00:54What's very important is make sure that innovation can happen in Europe.
00:59And I think that's a bit the idea of the tech creators group we have created, where we believe that
01:06it is very, very important to have a dialogue with the different government, commission,
01:11but also national governments, but also national governments, to help them to understand how to create the condition such that
01:20the AI ecosystem can develop in Europe.
01:24You will never have the entire ecosystem, right?
01:27You cannot do it all.
01:29It's too much.
01:29Or you cannot do it all at the same time.
01:31But you need at least to have enough, I would say, skin in the game, enough value in the ecosystem
01:37so that when those discussions or those decisions happen, you have a voice.
01:41So where can Europe have skin in the game?
01:43They've got skin in the game with ASML and the role that you play.
01:46Yeah.
01:46Where else can Europe have skin in the game when it comes to AI?
01:50Well, I think a very important place is the market itself.
01:53The European market is pretty attractive, right?
01:56You look at 22% of GDP, it's a very, I would say, mature market, very good market.
02:04So this means we are a user.
02:06We are buying a lot of stuff.
02:07And that's to start with a strength for Europe.
02:11And I think that's the reason why Europe was created.
02:14Now, if you look at the other part between maybe ASML and that, we have a lot of holes.
02:21And sometimes we discuss a lot of semiconductor manufacturing.
02:26Yes, there is a gap there.
02:29But most probably not the right place to start because semiconductor manufacturing is only needed if you have people to
02:37buy a semiconductor.
02:39Today, if we had a 2 nanometer fab in Europe, most probably most of the wafers will go to the
02:43U.S.
02:44So since we have a strong market, we have to start by looking at that and focus on what we
02:50call the market demand product
02:51and have strong industrial projects around AI application, around maybe AI product, then maybe chip design and then chip manufacturing.
03:04But you have to look at the entire sequence and look at it in the right order.
03:08How would you score Europe right now on a score of 1 to 10 in this AI race?
03:14Well, I think I've said that before.
03:15I think that, you know, if we compare how we do on the entire ecosystem versus the U.S. and
03:22China,
03:23I think today the U.S. is a clear winner.
03:24I mean, they are looking at champion across the entire AI semi-ecosystem.
03:31I think the one place they were missing a bit out was manufacturing.
03:35And I think they have been extremely aggressive in bringing some key company to manufacture in the U.S.
03:41They can do that because they buy chips.
03:43Eighty percent of the advanced chips manufactured worldwide is bought by the United States.
03:48So I think the U.S. is doing very, very well.
03:51China has been investing also across the entire ecosystem.
03:55I think most importantly, they do very well on the application side, a bit less on what's before that.
04:02But I think they are driving the use of AI most probably more aggressively than any other country.
04:09And again, when you look at Europe, a lot of holes.
04:12So I would say, you know, most probably quite behind what's happening elsewhere today.
04:19So that gap is obviously there.
04:21How interventionist should European governments be?
04:24The U.S. taking a 10 percent stake in Intel.
04:27Is that a playbook that we should copy?
04:30Well, I think two things, maybe.
04:32So the first thing, we need to have a dialogue between the industry and government.
04:38The whole of government is to really develop instruments, regulation or lack of regulation in some cases to make the
04:47industry champion life a lot easier.
04:50I want to ask you about the IPOs that come through, SpaceX notably, and possibly OpenAI and Anthropic coming up
04:55into the future.
04:56Are we underestimating the CapEx spend that could come about as a result of that capital raising and what it
05:02means for the demand for your lithography machines?
05:05Well, if you look at, you know, worldwide, the demand for AI infrastructure is still enormous.
05:14And the demand for HCI, H-Compute, starts to come up.
05:19So the demand is continuing to go up.
05:22I think a lot of us are convinced that we're going to be looking at a supply-limited market for
05:27AI, for semiconductor, for quite a few years because the buildup of the infrastructure is huge.
05:36And I think some of the IPOs you mentioned are just pointing to the opportunity that AI is representing.
05:42Are we early in this still?
05:44Where are we in that spend time?
05:45I think we're still early because, you know, even a year ago, the AI company were already very vocal about
05:53the need for this architecture, the need to build up capacity.
05:57My industry, the semi-industry, was still a bit hesitant to move.
06:01And the move really happened, basically, at the end of last year and very quickly.
06:06And now we all need to build capacity, so our customers have to build fab.
06:10We have to make sure we build enough equipment to fill those fab.
06:14And a catch-up will take quite a bit.
06:17And that's only for the infrastructure.
06:19And then the application will come.
06:22Are you seeing a pull forward of orders for your DUV and EV machines from customers?
06:27We see a pull.
06:29We see customers continuing to create visibility, longer-term visibility, telling us, well, this is a bit here to stay.
06:37So I would say that the trend we see is still very strong towards, basically, demand.
06:45Run with me on this one.
06:46Data centers and space.
06:48Is there a potential additional revenue stream for ASML if Musk pulls that one off?
06:53Well, I think, you know, you need a certain amount of data center.
06:59And they will be in space.
07:00They will be on the hearse.
07:02Doesn't necessarily change the number.
07:03I think the discussion about data center in space is to maybe address another potential bottleneck in the ecosystem, which
07:11is energy.
07:12I think the discussion around putting data center in space is there because there is an idea that if you
07:19do that,
07:19the energy consumption or the energy availability will be there.
07:24So maybe not too much to do with, you know, the total data center capacity,
07:29but maybe more about trying to solve another potential big issue, which is energy for a data center.
07:35Elon Musk is also looking at a terafab plan, potentially one terawatt of power.
07:41What's the potential upside for ASML on that?
07:44Have you talked to Musk about that project?
07:46Is that a potential uplift as well for the business going forward?
07:50Well, you know, any added capacity, of course, a potential upside for us.
07:56I think we are looking very carefully on the development, on when things will happen, at what speed.
08:04You know, new projects are opportunity as long as you're not supply limited.
08:09So that's also important to say that.
08:11So we have to make sure that this is really being taken care.
08:14But I think the terafab is an example of a major fab project.
08:20If you look at some of the DRAM projects in Korea, you also look at millions of wafer fabs.
08:26So that's also pretty big.
08:27Okay, so Korea and the build out there is going to be a driver as well.
08:31Staying with the U.S., though, one of the top House Republicans on the House China Committee
08:37sent a letter in April suggesting that ASML was going to start shipping DUV lithography machines into China.
08:44There's some concern there.
08:45Do you have a response to that?
08:47No, it's not a response because, you know, we have a dialogue with every government.
08:53I think you know that in the last few years, we have been subject many, many times to those kind
08:59of negative rumors about what we do.
09:02I mean, every time the rumors have been quite, I would say, potentially hurtful even for ASML.
09:09And I want to say it again.
09:11I mean, we have been following every single rules and we continue to do that.
09:15But the rules are changing, by the way, quite often.
09:19And sometimes something you could do, you cannot do anymore.
09:22But when this happens, you know, we change our behavior accordingly.
09:27So we are extremely cautious in trying to follow or follow, basically, the rule of laws.
09:35It's very important.
09:37And that's true for DPUV.
09:39That's true for EUV.
09:40That's true for any activity we have in China or anywhere else in the world.
09:44And I can promise you there's a lot of people in ASML making sure that we comply.
09:50Compliance is a very important, I would say, element in a very difficult geopolitical environment.
09:58The Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, will be here in Paris tomorrow.
10:03Yes.
10:03You've partnered with Tata.
10:05Yes.
10:05On their aspirations around foundries and build out of semiconductor capacity.
10:10How much of a growth story, potentially, is India for ASML?
10:13Yeah.
10:13So I think, so first, we're very happy with this partnership.
10:17Because we are partnering at the very start, at the very beginning.
10:21So, of course, we all know that India today doesn't have manufacturing for semiconductor.
10:27But, you know, by 2030, they believe that 10% of any chips will be used by India.
10:35And like anyone else, that becomes, therefore, a strategic question of supply.
10:41And therefore, they want to get their factory.
10:44So, first five will come up next year.
10:47A lot of learning has to happen.
10:49And we will help India, Tata, through this partnership to accelerate the learning.
10:55And, you know, as learning gets successful, you grow the opportunity.
11:00So we're very happy to start now.
11:02Because we look at that as a growing opportunity for not the next two years,
11:06but for the next five and then ten years in India.
11:09And we're very happy that we are there from the start.
11:11So, let's get started.
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