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00:00In your estimation, is Russell Wilson a Hall of Famer and why?
00:04I would say I would lean towards yes based on his 10-year run. However, I feel like what is
00:10a
00:10Hall of Famer now with them changing the rules to get in? It's harder to get in. So we've seen,
00:15obviously, Eli Manning has failed twice. We've seen even Antonio Gates, Luke Keekly took a year,
00:21you know, which is surprising to me. Those guys are locked. So I'm not betting that he's going
00:26to make it. And I think the next five years of his eligibility, sort of the clock is important for
00:31him because of how it ended. We're so based, a lot of times rooted in the recent, right? And we
00:37just
00:37need some time to remember that this guy was clearly a top five quarterback for a while. We can argue
00:44how long. And he was a special player. I think that's been easy to kind of gloss over the last
00:51few years because he hasn't been the most likable guy, right? I mean, he sort of got ahead of
00:57himself acting like he was more than he was. And he fell flat on his face. And a lot of
01:02people kind
01:02of reveled in that. But I think over time, that fades a little bit. And hopefully, you're just left
01:07with, you know, a body of work in Seattle that's probably going to be the ticket for him. I do
01:14think
01:14it's complicated because number one, who's advocating for him, right? He had this sort of
01:21weird thing with some of his teammates, the defensive guys thought he was getting too much
01:25credit. Is that all going to resolve? Because it feels to me, there's just not a groundswell. He's
01:32had a bad fracture with the Seahawks franchise, right? So that's why I think time's really important
01:39for him. And it's an uncertainty right now, but I can certainly make a good case for him.
01:43Can you punch that point? And I read the article, so I know it. And I want everybody to check
01:48it out
01:48as well at The Athletic. Can you please punch home what you're referring to when you say,
01:52and I'm paraphrasing what you said, he's kind of feeling himself a little bit, right? When he
01:57leaves Seattle, like kind of like what happened there leading to what happened in Denver that kind
02:02of rubbed people the wrong way. Yeah. Well, there was this kind of tension early in his career
02:07because they had the great defense. And so what was the real reason for it? That was the thing in
02:12Seattle with the guys on defense. So the defense falls off. Wilson then ascends and becomes this
02:18top player, tier one and quarterback tiers for a couple of years in a row, unanimous one year.
02:22But he was pushing against a old school, a little bit head coach in Pete Carroll, who wanted to run
02:28the ball, had a very distinct formula for how he thought the game should be won that was rooted
02:34in tradition, right? Not rooted in the let's throw it all over the yard. And so Russell Wilson felt
02:39like that was stifling him. And man, I can be Tom Brady. I can be Peyton Manning. I can be
02:44the guy
02:44back there running the whole show. This coach is kind of holding me back. You know, I love him for
02:49other reasons, but get me out of here. I'm going to go somewhere else. And so he goes to Denver,
02:54they give him the huge contract and he's got Aaron Rodgers coach even, right? Nathaniel Hackett
03:00at the time. And you're thinking, okay, let's see you do it. We're going to, you're going to be one
03:05of these guys. And not only does it not go well, but he just falls off a cliff, falls on
03:10his face.
03:12And so I think that fed into the idea of, okay, how much did he need around him, you know,
03:17to really
03:18do this? Maybe Pete Carroll, maybe father knows best, right? Pete Carroll had these limitations and
03:23reins on him that allowed him to shine within that. I think what also happened along the way was he
03:28lost
03:28his athleticism. I think it's a warning for any quarterback whose legs are a big part of them
03:34being great, right? And I think we would agree, Lamar Jackson is a good passer, but without his
03:42legs, is he a great quarterback? You know, is he great? Is he tier one without his legs? Well,
03:48Russell Wilson certainly wasn't. And so as he got older and maybe leaned into trying to be what he
03:52wasn't, which was the line of scrimmage orchestrator who doesn't need his legs to,
03:57to, to slice and dice, he couldn't do it. Two-part question here. I think I know the answer
04:04to both right, wrong, or indifferent. I will present you with two scenarios. If something
04:10goes differently, is he a lock hall of famer? Number one is the obvious, right? The Seahawks
04:17don't throw it at the end of Super Bowl 49 against the Patriots. Marshall and Lynch runs it in. The
04:22Seahawks go back to back. They're back to back Super Bowl champions. Russ has two rings. That's the
04:26first one. And the second is, instead of getting traded to Denver, and this is more of a stretch
04:32because I don't know if this ever would have happened, but you understand where I'm going with
04:35it. If Russell Wilson retires and never joins the Denver Broncos, those two scenarios, is he a lock
04:43hall of famer if either of those two things happens? Well, if both of them happened, I think
04:48that's the lock, right? Hey, you're a, you're a one time, one franchise, two Super Bowls with that
04:54level of a peak. I think that's one of the issues with Eli Manning is he, I don't think he
04:58was ever
04:58perceived to be that top tier, right? He wasn't as dominant of a player, didn't have as great of
05:02individual seasons, didn't have as great of offenses. So I think if both of them happen, yes.
05:07Uh, you know, if he gets the second Super Bowl, I think that's probably, I mean, it goes to closer
05:15to a lock because he was really big in the comeback in that game too. I mean, it was that,
05:21that passed
05:22on the sideline that was juggled and caught. Remember that? Jermaine curse. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's not
05:28even really talked about anymore. Like it didn't happen. It's kind of like, uh, Kurt Warner was
05:32quarterback of the Cardinals and through the 60 yard touchdown pass to Larry Fitzgerald to take the
05:36lead in the final three minutes against Pittsburgh. That's a legendary play. That's a legendary play
05:41to take the lead in the Super Bowl, right? Like no one even talks about it. Like it didn't happen.
05:45Well, it did happen. And I think when we look at these things like that, if he got the first
05:49Super
05:50Bowl, the second Super Bowl, that would be part of the legend. You know, that would be part of his
05:54legend more. And I think it would, uh, move him closer. Retiring at that point, uh, without having the
06:01second one, I don't, I don't know about that. I mean, it's probably a little bit better than now.
06:07I'm fascinated to get your answer. It's because you know him. I'm not saying, you know, him like
06:12a great personal level, but you know him better than 99% of people do. Right? So you, one of
06:17the
06:17things you wrote about in the column, and I get, I want everybody to check it out at the athletic
06:20that I thought was interesting. Right? Let's say he's great with the media and he's affable and he's
06:27more personable and he doesn't feel as scripted right. As he's been in the past, that may go a long
06:33way into like changing kind of the narrative, the reception around him. I don't think anyone
06:36would disagree with that. Mike, the question that I want to ask someone who know you spent a lot of
06:40time around him, is he capable of doing that? Or is this just who he is? And no one's saying
06:46he's
06:46a bad guy or a criminal or anything like that, but he does come across as inauthentic.
06:51Well, I don't think anybody knows him. I mean, I don't know him. You know, I spend a lot of
06:56time
06:56around him. Not really because I was, I was off the beat before he was the starting quarterback for
07:02the team. And he became the starting quarterback right as I was leaving my job as I was covering
07:07the NFC West for five years for ESPN. That ended going into about his second season. So I have not
07:13spent, you know, a ton of time around him like I would have on the beat, but I've certainly watched
07:17him very closely. I think he's one of those guys that nobody really knows. He hasn't let them in,
07:23you know, and so he hasn't been vulnerable. I think part of his success has been rooted in the
07:29idea that he believes all things are possible and all this stuff that sort of seems corny to a lot
07:34of people, but it worked for him. That doesn't, you can't be that forever, can you? You know what I
07:42mean? You gotta, don't you have to let your guard down? Can I ask you just an opinion? Can I
07:45ask you
07:46just an opinion? This is just your opinion. I'm not, this is not a prediction, just like your
07:48opinion. I think it's interesting, right? Because if you're CBS, I think if this hits,
07:56he's going to be magnificent. He's really smart. He's good looking. He's a quarterback. He won a
08:03Superbowl. If he puts it all together, like he's going to be awesome in this role. He'll be better
08:08than Matt Ryan. If he's good. If he hits his ceiling outcome for CBS, do you think he can get,
08:14and I'm not asking you to say like, he's going to suck. That's not what this is, but
08:16do you think he can do it? He'll be able to do it.
08:21I guess I'm skeptical on it till I see it because he hasn't been there. I mean, he said all
08:25the right
08:25things, but to such an extent that it's like almost annoying to some people. It's not as authentic,
08:30right? So does he have it in him to actually reflect on his career? And it may be too soon
08:36for
08:36him to do that. I, sometimes I feel like when a head coach gets fired and gets a job right
08:41away,
08:41that's like the worst thing. Like sometimes you need some time to process what happened,
08:45right? And become better off of it. He's coming straight from a member in, you know,
08:51not that long ago, he's, he's saying, Hey, I'm New York. I'm wearing a Knicks jacket at the Knicks
08:55game. And I'm going to lead this team. I'm going to be the leader for these guys. Do you think
08:59that
08:59locker room and those guys saw him as the leader of them just coming in because of who he is?
09:03So who
09:03does he see himself as right now? Probably hall of fame quarterback, right?
09:08Are we really going to get that level of reflection and vulnerability all of a sudden now five
09:14minutes after he was just playing? That would surprise me a great deal. And I think we are also
09:19in an era where these analysts are over scrutinized. Like it's hard to hide. You're going to be
09:27criticized right away. Even Tom Brady was right. I mean, Tom Brady has gotten better in my opinion,
09:32but right out of the gates, this is Tom Brady, TB 12, the legend. And people are like, this guy
09:37sucks. He's not watching the games. Right. And he had to get better at it. And he did. So can
09:42Wilson
09:43do that? No, I think we need to see. Yeah. And it's just, just the interest. It's just the way
09:49perception works, right? And how it can become reality. I think, and I think if you're a listener
09:54and viewer right now, you'll agree with this, right, wrong, or indifferent. Viewers are going to
09:59give Mike Tomlin a longer leash than they will Russell Wilson. Because Mike Tomlin is intensely
10:03likable and comes across as being intensely authentic, where that has not always been the
10:07case. And I think even the biggest Russell Wilson fans would have to admit that. Mike Sando is with
10:12us on the show from The Athletic on Twitter at Sando NFL. Quarterback tiers coming out later this
10:16summer. Can I just want to talk quarterbacks with you for a second here? I want to have some fun.
10:21Here's a hypothetical for you. Okay. Three quarterbacks that will be up for Hall of Fame. One is
10:27already. One just reset the clock. One just retired. Two minutes to go. And I, people hate when I do
10:33this,
10:33but this is what I'm going to do. Two minutes to go. Two minutes to go. Down by four. Russell
10:40Wilson, Phillip Rivers, or Eli Manning? Who are you taking?
10:51Wow. I like Wilson. I like prime Wilson in that. It's interesting that you put it that way, because
10:57I think Phillip Rivers was a better quarterback for longer. I think he was really, really, really,
11:06really good. But to me, in today's game, like Wilson and his prime and the ability to create
11:13with his legs and just the way that he had at his best, the ability to scramble and get the
11:20scramble
11:21drill with those guys running around, that's where my mind goes first. Now, of course, knowing me,
11:26I'd like to study it. I'd like to look at other two-minute situations and, you know, see how those
11:31came out. But that's kind of where I go first. How about you?
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