00:07My guest today on 12 Minutes With is the Director General of the European Space Agency, Dr. Joseph Aschbacher.
00:15Sir, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:17I want to start with talking to you about the eastern flank.
00:21Europe is being rattled by drone attacks.
00:24We've seen them in Finland and more recently in Romania.
00:26What role does the European Space Agency play in bolstering Europe's security?
00:34Of course, what happens now on the security front is very concerning for everyone, every European citizen and even beyond.
00:41What do we do as the European Space Agency?
00:43Of course, I have to distinguish the roles of us compared to the defense community, that means the military units
00:51in the different countries.
00:52We are not a military organization.
00:55We are a space agency, and as a space agency, we develop technology that can be utilized by other users,
01:01including the defense community.
01:02So our job and my job is to, first of all, define together on the basis of requirements from the
01:09security defense communities or other users,
01:12to define the space infrastructure that is needed in order to help them collecting information, communicating, navigating,
01:19and really being sure that they have the tools that space can provide for their defense purposes.
01:25And now, Europe has really ramped up defense spending.
01:28You have said yourself that Europe should also double its spending on space.
01:33But because Europe is now, on the one hand, being tightly squeezed with its budgets and, on the other hand,
01:38rapidly increasing this defense spending,
01:41How do you see that this is feasible?
01:43Do you say this is really necessary to invest in space?
01:46This is really necessary.
01:48Just take the three arguments that are really supporting the investments in space.
01:53Number one, space technology is utilized every single day by you, by me, by all the cities in Europe,
01:59from communication to weather forecasts to earth observation, agriculture, forestry, health.
02:07Many domains are really using data from satellites or satellite technology every single day.
02:12Number two, space is an economic growth sector.
02:16We're having a space economy today of about 600 billion euros.
02:21It grows to 1.8 trillion euros in the next decade.
02:24That means about 10% per year.
02:26We are increasing our space economy, or the world is increasing the space economy.
02:30And yes, of course, Europe wants to be part of it.
02:33And Europe wants to not only be part, but drive some of these sectors.
02:36And number three, yes, defense and security are driving factors today because space is essential for defense elements,
02:45for capacities, for all the domains on the air, on the ground, on the sea, and obviously in space itself.
02:52And there we have a relatively good situation at the moment in Europe.
02:57The budgets are very tight everywhere.
02:59We, of course, realize this.
03:00But space is so fundamental and is so important for daily life of every citizen.
03:05And therefore, it's really well justified because it's a bit like asking a question,
03:10do you need internet, yes or no?
03:12If you would switch off internet, yes, you can say it costs a lot of money having the computers,
03:16the networks and everything needed.
03:18But you couldn't do without internet.
03:19Space war is no longer a fiction.
03:21Many say it's a reality now.
03:23The latest stories, for example, of Russian satellites behaving suspiciously around European satellites are an example of this.
03:31What are the facts here?
03:32What are the risks?
03:33And what should Europe be doing to prepare and mitigate these risks?
03:38I mean, there are many things that need to be done.
03:40On one side, of course, space itself is probably in the future more under threat than today.
03:46But it's not only the space assets, that means the satellites in orbit.
03:51It's probably even more the ground assets, the ground stations, the operating stations,
03:57the stations that are communicating with the satellites and steering them and giving commands to the satellites.
04:03Cyber security is a big word in this context.
04:06So, yes, we need to protect our overall system.
04:09And, yes, this is something where I see increasing threats coming in the future in general, also in space.
04:16And that's something where we need to invest more to protect our infrastructure, our systems,
04:21in order to be sure to deliver all those data and information that you need in a daily life.
04:26Yeah.
04:26So, you say, really, spending is the response here.
04:30Spending is the response, but spending it wisely.
04:33Just spending is, of course, not the right answer, but spending it in the right way, in a coordinated way,
04:40but also increasing the speed of how we build up our systems,
04:44because sometimes in Europe we are not as fast as we should be.
04:47And I think speed, together with spending, is really what needs to happen.
04:51And now, the recent decision by the European Commission to give European satellite operators priority in the low-orbit market,
04:59many see this as a part of a shift in space culture here.
05:03This is assumedly because SpaceX, for example, and Amazon are light years ahead, many argue.
05:09Will this decision actually help Europe to finally make a competitive commercial space sector happen, do you think?
05:16Okay, you mentioned SpaceX and Amazon Leo, which, of course, are constellations that are being built up.
05:22I would not say that they are light years ahead.
05:24Light years are very long distance and it's a very big jump to make.
05:28But, yes, we do have European systems in connectivity.
05:32I take OneWeb as an example, which is next to Starlink,
05:37the next, I would say, civilian system that is being utilized by different users.
05:42So, yes, we have something, but, of course, yes, we need to build up and need to be much stronger.
05:46Iris Square is the answer to that.
05:48But also, at the European level, at ESA level, we have initiated a program called European Resilience from Space,
05:55which is an integrated system, a system of systems, that is having ISR,
06:00that means intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance capabilities, together with connectivity,
06:05in order to provide information of any place in the world within a very short period of time
06:09at good resolution with different sensors.
06:10So, yes, this build up is necessary.
06:13We have the capacity, we have the industry, we have the excellence in terms of technologies that we need,
06:19but we need to invest, we need to do it, and we need to do it fast.
06:23And on Amazon, you saw some pictures very early on Friday morning
06:27of a rocket operated by Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin company that had exploded after takeoff.
06:33What was your reaction to these images?
06:36When I see images like these, it's always, it makes me very sad,
06:40because I know how much effort is behind in developing a rocket, in developing the engines,
06:47in testing them, in bringing them to orbit.
06:50This was only one of the very first flights, so therefore it's really in the ramp-up phase,
06:55and this is certainly something that concerns me.
06:58We, and I'm really saying this because we are living through a ramp-up of a new rocket ourselves.
07:05We have developed the Ariane 6 rocket, we have launched it in July 2024 for the first time,
07:12and fingers crossed, we have been very fortunate,
07:16but luck always is the result of many steps that you are putting in place yourself.
07:20We have been very fortunate that our Ariane 6 rocket is performing extremely well.
07:24The ramp-up is very fast, it's the fastest today of any heavy-lift rocket on the market
07:31or built over the last couple of years,
07:33so it's really something where you always realize how complex space technology is,
07:40and it is literally rocket science, and rocket science is not so simple.
07:45It's very complex, and succeeding in rocket science, that means in launches,
07:49is always a huge achievement.
07:50So yes, I feel very sorry for this incident that happened.
07:54It will be quite a big damage.
07:56You have seen the explosion.
07:58The launch base, I think, is pretty much destroyed,
08:02something that will take quite some time to rebuild,
08:05but also to investigate the reason why this explosion happened.
08:08And this, I know, is taking quite a bit of time.
08:11It's certainly a huge setback, not good for anyone in the space community.
08:14And I want to pivot to the U.S. now.
08:17We saw this recent announcement from NASA
08:19that they are hoping to put a U.S. base on the moon.
08:22What does this mean for Europe?
08:24We are part of it.
08:25We are having plans already since many years in the making
08:29of building up what we call the lunar economy or the lunar space economy.
08:34So that means infrastructure on the lunar surface.
08:37It may sound a bit science fiction to imagine that on the moon,
08:41astronauts will be walking, will be driving with rovers,
08:46will be taking measurements.
08:48There will be other rovers extracting something from the soil on the lunar surface.
08:52There will be other factories producing bricks for making buildings and infrastructure.
08:59A launch pad may be constructed.
09:02Ice may be converted to water and therefore oxygen and fuel at the end.
09:08But also really creating this infrastructure and this economy is quite a challenge.
09:12It will happen, but we are the beginning of it.
09:16And ESA, yes, we are very much part of it.
09:18Of course, we discussed with NASA.
09:20We are in very close interactions.
09:21Just these days, I'm very intensely negotiating with NASA
09:25and the various elements that we can also provide in this larger context.
09:29But we have already started doing this since 2022,
09:34where we have funded very important projects.
09:37Argonaut, Moonlight are the keywords.
09:39Navigation communication on the moon's surface.
09:43Argonaut is transporting equipment from the Earth to the lunar surface.
09:47We have provided, as part of the Artemis program,
09:51the European Service Module.
09:52That is the module that powers, brings oxygen, water and living conditions
09:58to the astronauts when they flew just a couple of weeks ago around the moon and back
10:03and in the future onto the moon's surface.
10:05The engine for this capsule, the Orion capsule, is coming from Europe.
10:10It's provided by the European Space Agency.
10:12So, yes, we are part of a very close and dense cooperation with NASA already.
10:16And I want to ask you, we've also seen these declassified UFO files
10:20released by the Pentagon recently.
10:23Does the European Space Agency have similar footage?
10:26Can we expect the same here in Europe?
10:29We do not have as much footage as just being released.
10:32We have, of course, some information that we get.
10:34Even I get letters and pictures and movies from citizens
10:39that they have seen and discovered something.
10:41We have an office within ESA that is looking into this.
10:45Sometimes it turns out to be some light effects,
10:48some planes or some satellites
10:51or something that has created a certain reflection
10:54and therefore it looks a bit strange at first sight.
10:57But, yes, we are also collecting information.
10:59But, yes, NASA has a much larger database
11:02and it's quite interesting to see some of this footing
11:05and that first moment, of course, very surprising.
11:08And I think this is also quite interesting
11:10to really give it another dimension, which you wouldn't expect.
11:14and I think this is also part where people are very curious
11:16and want to see what could be possible.
11:18And just finally, very briefly,
11:20when do you think we will see the next European astronaut on the Moon?
11:25On the Moon? That is a big question.
11:27I wish I could answer the question.
11:29Around the Moon is also good.
11:31On the Moon.
11:32I hope before the end of the decade we will, of course, partner with NASA
11:36because they are our partner for astronaut flights
11:40and including to the lunar surface.
11:43But this is not yet agreed.
11:44I just want to be very clear.
11:45But we are discussing with NASA very intensely
11:48to make this possible for Europeans as fast as possible.
11:51Dr. Aschbacher, thank you so much for your time.
11:54Thank you.
11:55Thank you.
11:56Autore dei sovrapposti
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