00:07My guest today on 12 Minutes With is the Director General of the European Space Agency,
00:13Dr. Joseph Ashbacher. Sir, thank you so much for joining us today. I want to start with
00:19talking to you about the eastern flank. Europe is being rattled by drone attacks. We've seen
00:24them in Finland and more recently in Romania. What role does the European Space Agency play
00:30in bolstering Europe's security? Of course, what happens now on the security front is very
00:37concerning for everyone, every European citizen and even beyond. What do we do as European Space
00:43Agency? Of course, I have to distinguish the roles of us compared to the defense community,
00:48that means the military units in the different countries. We are not a military organization,
00:55we are a space agency. And as a space agency, we develop technology that can be utilized by other
01:00users, including the defense community. So our job and my job is to, first of all, define together
01:07or on the basis of requirements from the security defense communities or other users to define the
01:13space infrastructure that is needed in order to help them collecting information, communicating,
01:19navigating and really being sure that they have the tools that space can provide for their defense
01:24purposes. And now Europe has really ramped up defense spending. You have said yourself that
01:29Europe should also double its spending on space. But because Europe is now on the one hand being tightly
01:36squeezed with its budgets and on the other hand rapidly increasing this defense spending,
01:41how do you see that this is feasible? Do you say this is really necessary to invest in space?
01:46This is really necessary. Just take the three arguments that are really supporting the investments
01:52in space. Number one, space technology is utilized every single day by you, by me, by all the citizens
01:59in Europe, from communication to weather forecasts to earth observation, agriculture, forestry, health.
02:07Many domains are really using data from satellites or satellite technology every single day. Number two,
02:13space is an economic growth sector. We're having a space economy today of about 600 billion euros. It
02:21grows to 1.8 trillion euros in the next decade. That means about 10% per year. We are increasing
02:27our
02:27space economy or the world is increasing the space economy. And yes, of course, Europe wants to be part of
02:32it. And Europe wants to not only be part but drive some of these sectors. And number three, yes, defense
02:38and security are driving factors today because space is essential for defense elements, for capacities,
02:46for all the domains on the air, on the ground, on the sea, and obviously in space itself. And there
02:52we have a
02:53relatively good situation at the moment in Europe. The budgets are very tight everywhere. We, of course,
02:59realize this, but space is so fundamental and is so important for daily life of every citizen.
03:06And therefore, it's really well justified because it's a bit like asking a question, do you need
03:11internet? Yes or no? If you would switch off internet, yes, you can say it costs a lot of money
03:15having
03:15the computers, the networks and everything needed, but you couldn't do without internet.
03:19Space war is no longer a fiction. Many say it's a reality now. The latest stories of, for example,
03:25Russian satellites behaving suspiciously around European satellites are an example of this.
03:30What are the facts here? What are the risks and what should Europe be doing to prepare and mitigate
03:37these risks? I mean, there are many things that need to be done. On one side, of course, space itself
03:42is probably in the future more under threat than today. But it's not only the space assets, that means
03:49the satellites in orbit. It's probably even more the ground assets, the ground stations, the operating
03:56stations, the stations that are communicating with the satellites and steering them and giving commands
04:01to the satellites. Cyber security is a big word in this context. So yes, we need to protect our
04:08overall system. And yes, this is something where I see increasing threats coming in the future, in general,
04:15also in space. And that's something where we need to invest more to protect our infrastructure, our systems,
04:21in order to be sure to deliver all those data and information that you need on a daily life.
04:26Yeah. So you say really spending is the response here.
04:30Spending is the response, but spending it wisely. Just spending is, of course, not the right answer, but spending it
04:37in the
04:37right way, in a coordinated way, but also increasing the speed of how we build up our systems.
04:43Because sometimes in Europe, we are not as fast as we should be. And I think speed together with
04:49spending is really what needs to happen.
04:51And now the recent decision by the European Commission to give European satellite operators
04:57priority in the low orbit market. Many see this as a part of a shift in space culture here.
05:03This is assumedly because SpaceX, for example, and Amazon are light years ahead, many argue.
05:08Will this decision actually help Europe to finally make a competitive commercial space sector happen, do you think?
05:16Okay. You mentioned SpaceX and Amazon Leo, which, of course, are constellations that are being built up.
05:22I would not say that they are light years ahead. Light years are very long distance and it's a very
05:26big jump to make.
05:28But, yes, we do have European systems in connectivity. I take OneWeb as an example, which is next to Starlink,
05:37the next, I would say, civilian or system that is being utilized by different users.
05:42So, yes, we have something. But, of course, yes, we need to build up and need to be much stronger.
05:46Either square is the answer to that.
05:48But also at the European level, at ESA level, we have initiated a program called European Resilience from Space, which
05:55is an integrated system, a system of systems that is having ISR, that means intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance capabilities, together with
06:04connectivity, in order to provide information of any place in the world within a very short period of time at
06:09good resolution with different sensors.
06:10So, yes, this build up is necessary. We have the capacity. We have the industry. We have the excellence in
06:17terms of technologies that we need.
06:19But we need to invest. We need to do it and we need to do it fast.
06:23And on Amazon, you saw some pictures very early on Friday morning of a rocket operated by Jeff Bezos's Blue
06:29Origin company that had exploded after takeoff.
06:33What was your reaction to these images?
06:36When I see images like this, it's always makes me very sad because I know how much effort is behind
06:43in developing a rocket, in developing the engines, in testing them, in bringing them to orbit.
06:50This was only one of the very first flights. So, therefore, it's really in the ramp up phase.
06:55And this is certainly something that concerns me.
06:59And I'm really saying this because we are living through a ramp up of a new rocket ourselves.
07:05We have developed the Ariane 6 rocket. We have launched it in July 2024 for the first time.
07:12And fingers crossed, we have been very fortunate.
07:15But luck always is the result of many steps that you are putting in place yourself.
07:20We have been very fortunate that our Ariane 6 rocket is performing extremely well.
07:24The ramp up is very fast. It's the fastest today of any heavy lift rocket on the market or built
07:32over the last couple of years.
07:33So, it's really something where you always realize how complex space technology is.
07:40And it is literally rocket science.
07:42And rocket science is not so simple.
07:44It's very complex.
07:46And succeeding in rocket science, that means in launches, is always a huge achievement.
07:50So, yes, I feel very sorry for this incident that happened.
07:54It will be quite a big damage.
07:56You have seen the explosion.
07:58The launch base, I think, is pretty much destroyed.
08:02Something that will take quite some time to rebuild.
08:05But also to investigate the reason why this explosion happened.
08:08And this, I know, is taking quite a bit of time.
08:11It's certainly a huge setback.
08:12Not good for anyone in the space community.
08:14And I want to pivot to the U.S. now.
08:17We saw this recent announcement from NASA that they are hoping to put a U.S. base on the moon.
08:22What does this mean for Europe?
08:24We are part of it.
08:25We are having plans already since many years in the making of building up what we call the lunar economy
08:33or the lunar space economy.
08:34So, that means infrastructure on the lunar surface.
08:37It may sound a bit science fiction to imagine that on the moon, astronauts will be walking, will be driving
08:45with rovers, will be taking measurements.
08:48There will be other rovers extracting something from the soil on the lunar surface.
08:52There will be other factories producing bricks for making buildings and infrastructure.
08:59A launch bed may be constructed.
09:02Ice may be converted to water and therefore oxygen and fuel at the end.
09:08But also, really creating this infrastructure and this economy is quite a challenge.
09:13It will happen.
09:14But we are the beginning of it.
09:16And ESA, yes, we are very much part of it.
09:18Of course, we discussed with NASA.
09:20We are in very close interactions.
09:21Just these days, I'm very intensely negotiating with NASA and the various elements that we can also provide in this
09:28larger context.
09:30But we have already started doing this since 2022, where we have funded very important projects.
09:37Argonaut, Moonlight are the keywords.
09:39Navigation communication on the moon surface.
09:43Argonaut is transporting equipment from the Earth to the lunar surface.
09:47We have provided, as part of the Artemis program, the European Service Module, that is the module that powers, brings
09:55oxygen, water, and living conditions to the astronauts when they flew just a couple of weeks ago around the moon
10:02and back and in the future onto the moon's surface.
10:05The engine for this capsule, the Orion capsule, is coming from Europe.
10:10It's provided by the European Space Agency.
10:12So, yes, we are part of a very close and dense cooperation with NASA already.
10:16And I want to ask you, we've also seen these declassified UFO files released by the Pentagon recently.
10:23Does the European Space Agency have similar footage?
10:26Can we expect the same here in Europe?
10:29We do not have as much footage as just being released.
10:32We have, of course, some information that we get.
10:34Even I get letters and pictures and movies from citizens that they have seen and discovered something.
10:41We have an office within ESA that is looking into this.
10:45Sometimes it turns out to be some light effects, some planes or some satellites or something that has created a
10:53certain reflection and therefore it looks a bit strange at first sight.
10:57But, yes, we are also collecting information.
10:59But, yes, NASA has a much larger database.
11:02And it's quite interesting to see some of this footing and that first moment, of course, very surprising.
11:08And I think this is also quite interesting to really give it another dimension, which you wouldn't expect.
11:14And I think this is also part where people are very curious and want to see what could be possible.
11:18And just finally, very briefly, when do you think we will see the next European astronaut on the Moon?
11:25On the Moon. That is a big question. I wish I could answer the question.
11:29Around the Moon is also good.
11:31On the Moon. I hope before the end of the decade.
11:34We will, of course, partner with NASA because they are our partner for astronaut flights and including to the lunar
11:42surface.
11:43But this is not yet agreed. I just want to be very clear.
11:45But we are discussing with NASA very intensely to make this possible for Europeans as fast as possible.
11:51Dr. Aschbacher, thank you so much for your time.
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