00:06Muzyka
00:07Joining me on 12 Minutes with is Taras Kaczka,
00:11Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine for European and Euro-Atlantic Integration.
00:15Thank you for being here.
00:16Thank you for inviting me.
00:18Minister, Germany's chancellor Friedrich Mariusz
00:20proposed an interim associate membership for Ukraine with the European Union,
00:25allowing participation, but without voting rights.
00:28Now, this is something that President Zelenskiy described as unfair and rejected.
00:33What specifically makes this model unacceptable for Ukraine?
00:37It is unacceptable if it is an alternative to full membership,
00:41and this is a starting point for all discussions about the future of Ukraine,
00:46is that there are no alternatives for the fast, merit-based,
00:51but full membership in the European Union.
00:54Any type of alternatives are simply not acceptable and not worth any discussions.
01:00So that's why the formula is very clear,
01:04that we need to have a fast, comprehensive, normal accession process
01:10that will end with the signing of the Treaty of Accession
01:13under Article 49 of the Treaty of the European Union.
01:16So this is normal accession.
01:19Everything else, I think that it doesn't matter, but we will see what else in the letter of Chancellor Merz.
01:31Do you see any sort of phased or partial integration for Ukraine, or it's a no-go?
01:37Gradual integration is a term that exists within the accession process,
01:42so that from the 1st of January 2026 we started Rome like at home,
01:47when the project where Ukraine is treated like a member state of the European Union,
01:52so the same rights and the same obligations, we use an association agreement for these purposes.
01:58For us, the integration into the internal market even before the accession to the European Union is of utmost interest,
02:07because our business wants to be treated as a business of the European Union with no trade barriers.
02:13But it should not decrease the attention or move any resources from accession negotiations.
02:23Ukraine set a target to complete all the internal obligations
02:27and be technically ready for the EU membership by the end of 2027.
02:31But it does take some time from candidates, countries, decades to finally join the European Union.
02:37Is this something that Ukraine is ready to wait longer, much longer in this case?
02:42Here we still have certain prejudice towards Ukraine.
02:47For Ukraine this decade started in like 15 years ago or even earlier when we negotiated association agreement.
02:55A lot of our policies are based on EU rules, so that like food safety or technical regulations.
03:03And as well in the most important topic as a rule of law,
03:06so what we are doing now is completing the reform that started in 2016 with review of the constitution.
03:14So that's why we absolutely rationally and in absolute sobriety know that all the benchmarks
03:23that are already defined by the European Union are easily implemented in the forthcoming 12-8 months.
03:31We are conscious that we are on the final stage of negotiations.
03:35We are not starting this.
03:37But there are some people in different member states who still believe that
03:40if cluster 1 will open only like here in June, so now,
03:45then it will only start the process of reforms in Ukraine.
03:49It's otherwise. So the opening of the cluster will open the final countdown.
03:54We've heard this indication regarding June also from Enlargement Commissioner Marta Kos
03:58when it comes to the cluster 1, which is of course focused on democracy and the rule of law.
04:04She also said that she expects other clusters to open in July. What's your timeline?
04:08Our timeline is that we're already behind the deadline. Free clusters were ready to open a year ago
04:15when Hungary formally started blocking the consideration of the free packages.
04:21In December, the member states communicated the benchmarks for these clusters to us.
04:27It was like a front-loading so that we broke through the process of opening of clusters.
04:34In March, we got benchmarks for the remaining three out of six clusters.
04:40So everything is already done. So that's why we are already behind the schedule.
04:45So that's why we believe that all six clusters can be open already in June.
04:50But now everything depends on the bureaucracy.
04:52So that's all the minor steps that are left behind.
04:56And of course, we still need to find the final arrangements with Hungary
05:00because they have a relatively new government that still deals with a lot of issues.
05:05This is what I wanted to ask you, obviously, on Hungary and the Hungarian Vita.
05:08For so long, the previous government has been blocking the opening of the clusters.
05:13Now, with the new government, things are changing.
05:16There are consultations now being held between Kyiv and Budapest.
05:20Do you see this consultation specifically on the issue of minorities in Ukraine,
05:25which is the cornerstone for Budapest and for the new government as well?
05:29Do you see this being sorted for the clusters opening in June?
05:34First, we already heard the statement of a foreign foreign minister of Hungary
05:40and deputy prime minister Anita Orban that Hungary will not block anything
05:44so that in the European Union.
05:47So this is already like a major news for everyone.
05:50And we started like very, very early on 8th of May.
05:55We started consultations with Budapest on national minorities.
06:00And we need to be very clear that Ukraine treats Hungarian community in Ukraine
06:06with full full respect.
06:08All their needs are satisfied.
06:11So this is not a commitment, this is reality.
06:13For us, they are absolutely integral part of Ukrainian society
06:18with full respect to their national identity.
06:22So we have almost 100 schools for Hungarians satisfying all demands.
06:26So that means that literally every pupil, every child in Ukraine that wants to learn in Hungarian
06:33or to learn Hungarian language while learning in Ukraine has this possibility to do it.
06:38What we offered as well to previous government, and we continue to do so with current government,
06:46is to fine-tune the legislation for everyone to be aware that this incredibly good atmosphere will not change eventually,
06:54I don't know, under some different circumstances.
06:58But we need this to be proved as well by the constructive steps of Hungary here in Brussels,
07:04in the Council and different level of consideration of the packages for opening of the clusters,
07:10which we agreed will happen.
07:13So I think that by mid of June everything will be okay as if it will continue with the same
07:19pace.
07:20This fine-tuning, does it have to happen before the official opening of the cluster,
07:25before Hungary's veto is no longer there, or the commitment is enough,
07:30and then the clusters could open with the commitment?
07:33In our opinion, so we already gave all necessary guarantees within cluster one,
07:39so that what we are discussing now is that what else might be needed for these guarantees.
07:46I think that the dialogue on national minorities between Ukraine and Hungary will last permanently.
07:53We also have a permanent commission on national minorities between Ukraine and Hungary.
07:59So what kind of form of, let's say, confirming this, you know, our will and interest,
08:08this is something that we are still discussing, so that I hope that we will see this news.
08:13Apart from Hungary, there might be other countries potentially that could block clusters for Ukraine,
08:20and you've indicated yourself that one of these countries might be Poland when it comes to agriculture.
08:26Yeah, there is no big secret so that Polish agriculture treats Ukrainian agriculture as a competition.
08:32So last week was full of contacts with Polish government.
08:37I am co-chair of our intergovernmental commission with Poland,
08:42and so we discussed all these things.
08:44So we see no intention to block opening of the clusters,
08:50but we see the good-faith will to find a solution for these sensitive and complicated topics
08:58with Poland and our neighbors and with other member states as well.
09:03But this one will be the most delicate.
09:06Minister, another concern in Brussels when it comes to the pace of EU-oriented reforms in Ukraine is Kyiv's stance
09:13on corruption.
09:14There is an ongoing investigation which also involves former chief of staff of the president of Ukraine.
09:20How do ongoing corruption cases impact confidence in the EU member states both regarding the EU accession
09:28and regarding the currently unblocked €90 billion loan for Ukraine?
09:33First, all these investigations are indications that our anti-corruption framework works, works efficiently, is ambitious, is capable for investigations.
09:47So this is a really good news.
09:49So that second is that what Ukraine is now living through the war and the dramatic change of its political
10:01culture.
10:02Something that was a problem for the accession of Ukraine in the past, so 10 years ago, 15 years ago,
10:11so corruption, systemic corruption, is now very dramatically and fast going into the past.
10:18It's like this page is literally changing.
10:22So that's why for me this is something, the healthiest thing that is happening.
10:30Indeed, every corruption scandal is still a scandal, so that's why I think there will be people who will treat
10:38this otherwise.
10:40But for me, this is very clear.
10:41So this is exactly what the EU wants us to do, to clear government, to get rid of any corruption,
10:50to ensure that anti-corruption framework works, and it works.
10:53Last year it was 737 cases that were opened by Naboo.
10:58It was 125 indictments of prosecution office against more than 200 people.
11:05And there were 93 sentences against 130 persons by High Anti-Corruption Court of Ukraine.
11:13This is about corruption cases that covered more than 20 billion of losses to states.
11:20So it means that it works, so that this framework, anti-corruption framework works.
11:24And this framework was completed and started to be fully operational in 2023,
11:31when the war already was on the fullest scale, and it was done by our current parliament.
11:37So that's why I think that the pace of reform in Ukraine is incredible in incredibly difficult circumstances.
11:45And we are doing, we are not looking for any excuses with our partners.
11:50We do our homework with, like, fullest accuracy possible.
11:54Thank you.
11:55Thank you.
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