00:07Joining me on 12 minutes with is Taras Kachka, Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine for European
00:13and Euro-Atlantic integration. Thank you for being here.
00:16Thank you for inviting me.
00:18Minister, Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Meretz proposed an interim associate membership
00:22for Ukraine with the European Union allowing participation but without voting rights. Now,
00:28this is something that President Zelensky described as unfair and rejected. What specifically makes
00:34this model unacceptable for Ukraine? It is unacceptable if it is an alternative
00:40to full membership and this is a starting point for all discussions about the future of Ukraine,
00:47is that there are no alternatives for the fast merit-based but full membership in the European
00:53Union. Any type of alternatives are simply not acceptable and not worth any discussions. So,
01:01that's why the formula is very clear that we need to have a fast, comprehensive, normal accession process
01:10that will end with a signing of a Treaty of Accession under Article 49 of the Treaty of European Union.
01:16So,
01:16this is normal accession. Everything else, I think that it doesn't matter, but we will see
01:26what else in the letter of Chancellor Meretz.
01:30Do you see any sort of phased or partial integration for Ukraine or it's a no-go?
01:37So, gradual integration is a term that exists within the accession process so that from the 1st of January
01:442026, we started Rome like at home when the project where Ukraine is treated like a member state of the
01:51European Union,
01:52so the same rights and the same obligations. We use an association agreement for these purposes.
01:58For us, the integration into the internal market even before the accession to the European Union is of
02:06utmost interest because our business wants to be treated as a business of the European Union with no trade barriers.
02:13But it should not decrease the attention or move any resources from accession negotiations.
02:23Ukraine set a target to complete all the internal obligations and be technically ready for the EU
02:28membership by the end of 2027. But it does take some time from candidates, countries decade to finally
02:36join the European Union. Is this something that Ukraine is ready to wait longer, much longer in this case?
02:43Here, we still have certain prejudice towards Ukraine. For Ukraine, this decade started in like 15 years
02:51ago or even even earlier when we negotiated association agreement. A lot of our policies are based on EU
02:59rules so that like food safety or technical regulations and as well in the most important topic as a rule
03:06of
03:06law. So what we are doing now is completing the reform that started in 2016 with review of the constitution.
03:14So that's
03:15why we absolutely rationally and in absolute sobriety know that all the benchmarks that are
03:24already defined by the European Union are easily implemented in the forthcoming 12-8 months.
03:30We are conscious that we are on the final stage of negotiations. We are not starting this. But
03:37there are some people in different member states who still believe that if cluster one will open
03:42only like here in June, so now, then it will only start the process of reforms in Ukraine. It's
03:49otherwise. So the opening of the cluster will open the final countdown.
03:54We've heard this indication regarding June also from enlargement commissioner Marta Kos when it comes
03:58to the cluster one which is of course focused on democracy and the rule of law. She also said that
04:05she expects other clusters to open in July. What's your timeline?
04:08Our timeline is that we are already behind the deadline. Free clusters were ready to open a year
04:15ago when Hungary formally started blocking the consideration of the free packages. In December,
04:22the member states communicated the benchmarks for these clusters to us. It was like a front loading so
04:29that we broke through the process of opening of clusters. In March, we got benchmarks for the remaining
04:38three out of six clusters. So everything is already done. So that's why we are already behind the
04:44schedule. So that's why we believe that all six clusters can be open already in June. But now
04:50everything depends on the bureaucracy. So that all the minor steps that are left behind. And of course,
04:57we still need to find the final arrangements with Hungary because they have relatively new government
05:03that still deals with a lot of issues.
05:05This is what I wanted to ask you, obviously, on Hungary and the Hungarian Vita. For so long,
05:10the previous government's been blocking the opening of the clusters. Now with the new government,
05:14the things are changing. There are consultations now being held between Kyiv and Budapest. Do you see
05:21this consultation specifically on the issue of minorities in Ukraine, which is the cornerstone for
05:27Budapest and for the new government as well? Do you see this being sorted for the clusters opening in June?
05:34First, we already heard the statement of foreign foreign minister of Hungary and deputy prime minister
05:41Anita Orban that Hungary will not block anything so that in the European Union. So this is already like
05:48major news for everyone. And we started very, very early on 8th of May. We started consultations with
05:58Budapest on national minorities. And we need to be very clear that Ukraine treats Hungarian community in
06:06Ukraine with full full respect. All their needs are satisfied. So this is not a commitment. This is reality.
06:13For us, they are absolutely integral part of Ukrainian society with full respects to their national
06:21identity. So we have almost 100 schools for Hungarians satisfying all demands. So that means that literally
06:27every pupil, every child in Ukraine that wants to learn in Hungarian or to learn Hungarian language while
06:35learning has this possibility to do. What we offer it as well to previous government and we continue to do
06:45so with current
06:45government is to fine tune the legislation for everyone to be aware that this incredibly good atmosphere will not change
06:53eventually, I don't know, under some different circumstances. But we need to this to be proved as well by the
07:02constructive steps of Hungary here in Brussels in the Council and different level of consideration of the
07:08packages for opening of the clusters, which we agreed will happen. So I think that by mid of June everything
07:16will be okay as if it will continue with the same pace. This fine tuning, does it have to happen
07:23before the
07:24official opening of the cluster, before Hungary's veto is no longer there, or the commitment is enough and then
07:31the clusters could open with the commitment? In our opinion, so we already gave all necessary guarantees
07:38within cluster one so that what we are discussing now is that what else might be needed for these
07:45guarantees. I think that the dialogue on national minorities between Ukraine and Hungary will last
07:52like permanently. This is, we also have like a permanent commission on national minorities between Ukraine and
07:59Hungary. So what kind of form of, let's say, confirming this, you know, our will and interest, this is something
08:08that we are
08:09still discussing. So that I hope that you will see this news.
08:14Apart from Hungary, there might be other countries potentially that could block clusters for Ukraine. And you've indicated
08:21yourself that one of these countries might be Poland when it comes to agriculture.
08:26Yeah, there is no big secret so that Polish agriculture treats Ukrainian agriculture as a competition. So last week
08:33was full of contacts with Polish government. I am co-chair of our intergovernmental commission with Poland. So we discussed
08:43all these things.
08:44So we see no intention to block opening of the clusters, but we see the good faith will to find
08:55a solution for these
08:56sensitive and complicated topics with Poland and our neighbors and with other member states as well. But this one will
09:05be the most delicate.
09:06Minister, another concern in Brussels when it comes to the pace of EU-oriented reforms in Ukraine is Kyiv's stance
09:13on corruption.
09:14There is an ongoing investigation which also involves former chief of staff of the president of Ukraine.
09:20How do ongoing corruption cases impact confidence in the EU member states, both regarding the EU accession
09:28and regarding the currently unblocked 90 billion euros loan for Ukraine?
09:33First, all these investigations are indications that our anti-corruption framework works,
09:41works efficiently, is ambitious, is capable for investigation. So this is a really good news.
09:50Second is that Ukraine is now living through the war and the dramatic change of its political culture.
10:03Something that was a problem for the accession of Ukraine in the past, so 10 years ago,
10:1015 years ago, so corruption, systemic corruption is now very dramatically and fast going into the past.
10:18It's like this page is like literally like is changing. So that's why for me this is something,
10:27the healthiest thing that is happening. Indeed, every corruption scandal still scandal. So that's why I think
10:36there are there will be people who will treat this otherwise. But for me, this is very clear. So this
10:42is exactly what the EU wants us to do to clear government, to get rid of any corruptions, to ensure
10:50that anti-corruption framework works and it works.
10:53Last year, it was 737 cases that were opened by NABU. It was 125 indictments of prosecution office against more
11:04than 200 people.
11:05And there were 93 sentences against 130 persons by high anti-corruption court of Ukraine.
11:13This is about corruption cases that covered more than 20 billion of losses to state.
11:20So it means that it works. So that this framework, anti-corruption framework works. And this framework was completed and
11:27start to be fully operational in 2023.
11:30And the war already was like on the fullest scale and it was done by our current parliament. So that's
11:38why I think that the pace of reform in Ukraine is incredible in incredibly difficult circumstances.
11:45And we are doing, we are doing, we are not looking for any excuses with our partners. We do our
11:51homework with like fullest accuracy possible.
Comments