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Europa aumenta despesas militares: eurodeputados discutem prioridades na The Ring
Subir a despesa europeia em defesa é investimento estratégico ou gesto para agradar a Donald Trump? Tema desta semana de The Ring com os eurodeputados Marc Botenga e Lukas Mandl
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/05/22/europa-aumenta-despesas-militares-eurodeputados-discutem-prioridades-na-the-ring
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Subir a despesa europeia em defesa é investimento estratégico ou gesto para agradar a Donald Trump? Tema desta semana de The Ring com os eurodeputados Marc Botenga e Lukas Mandl
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/05/22/europa-aumenta-despesas-militares-eurodeputados-discutem-prioridades-na-the-ring
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
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NotíciasTranscrição
00:08Olá e bem-vindo a The Ring,
00:10Euronews's weekly debate show
00:12broadcasting from the European Parliament
00:14in Strasbourg.
00:15Today, I'm Stefan Grobe.
00:17On The Ring,
00:18members of the European Parliament
00:20go face-to-face
00:21on some of the biggest issues
00:22facing Europe.
00:24Today, we're going to talk about
00:25European defense efforts
00:27in a fast-changing geopolitical environment.
00:30Luis Alberto has more.
00:34Wars in Ukraine and Iran,
00:36economic insecurity
00:37and questions about the future of NATO.
00:40Europe finds itself at a moment
00:41of profound uncertainty.
00:44That sense of vulnerability
00:46has triggered a historic shift
00:48in European defense policy.
00:49Countries that for decades
00:51reduced military budgets
00:52are now dramatically increasing
00:54defense spending.
00:56Europe is also trying
00:57to redefine its alliance
00:58and many European leaders
01:00argue that Europe
01:01must become more
01:02strategically autonomous.
01:03At the same time,
01:04Europe fears being sidelined
01:06if the world increasingly
01:07becomes shaped by deals
01:09between the United States,
01:10China and Russia.
01:12Can Europe successfully
01:14navigate this turbulent period?
01:15Can it emerge
01:16as truly independent global power?
01:21A lot to unpack here
01:23for our contenders
01:24and here they are.
01:27Lukas Mandl,
01:28an Austrian MEP
01:29from the Central-Right
01:30European People's Party.
01:32He's a member
01:32of the Committees
01:33on Development,
01:34Legal Affairs
01:35and Civil Liberties,
01:36Justice and Home Affairs
01:37at the European Parliament.
01:39Regarding the EU's priorities
01:40at a time of growing
01:41global uncertainty
01:42and geopolitical turmoil,
01:44he said,
01:44it's the economy, stupid.
01:46Let's put first things first.
01:49Mark Botenga,
01:50a Belgian MEP
01:51from the left group.
01:52He's a member
01:53of the Committees
01:53on Foreign Affairs
01:54and Security and Defense
01:55at the European Parliament.
01:57He has criticized
01:58the EU's position
01:58on the global stage,
02:00arguing that the double standards
02:01of this Europe
02:02are not only a disgrace,
02:03they also allow
02:04the creation of a world
02:05of chaos and war.
02:06So be ashamed
02:07because today,
02:08this Europe
02:09is not a force for good,
02:10but an accomplice to crime.
02:14So let me welcome
02:16to the ring
02:16Lukas Mandl
02:17and Mark Botenga.
02:19Good to see you.
02:20Great to have you here.
02:22The aim of the ring
02:23is to offer our viewers
02:25a glimpse
02:25at European Parliament debates
02:27so you should feel
02:29right at home.
02:30Are you ready?
02:31You're ready.
02:32Thanks for having me.
02:33Good.
02:34I want to start
02:34with something provocative,
02:36Mark Botenga.
02:37Will more money,
02:39more defense money,
02:39actually make Europe safer
02:41or are governments
02:43confusing spending
02:45with strategy?
02:46Oh, I think definitely
02:47we don't have a strategy
02:48right now.
02:49So I think that's
02:50very impressive.
02:50Like we put in
02:51a lot of money,
02:52hundreds and hundreds
02:53of billions
02:53going to the defense sector.
02:55Very often
02:56with little conditions,
02:57first of all.
02:57So we also see
02:58that at the same time
02:59you have these
02:59multinational companies
03:00that are now
03:01sending a lot more money
03:02to their shareholders.
03:03But I'm like,
03:04are we just sponsoring
03:05basically not just
03:07their profits,
03:07but even their dividends,
03:08their share buybacks?
03:09So this is one question.
03:10But secondly,
03:11what are our priorities?
03:12We see that people
03:13are buying,
03:15you know,
03:15armored vehicles
03:16to be used
03:17in the West of Africa.
03:18We're seeing
03:19the F-35 fighter jets
03:20being bought
03:21by member states.
03:23And I'm like,
03:23what is this for?
03:24This is not
03:25for our defense.
03:26You know,
03:26this is,
03:26if we,
03:27with all of the money
03:28and all the material
03:29we have,
03:29you know,
03:29which is much more
03:30than what Russia has,
03:31you know,
03:31we have many times
03:32more tanks,
03:33many times more fighter jets,
03:34many times more battleships
03:36than Russia has.
03:37We see Russia struggling,
03:38you know,
03:38they were unable
03:39to even organize
03:40the parade in Moscow.
03:42Why are we not able
03:43to defend ourselves
03:44with the money
03:44we're already spending?
03:45Yeah.
03:46Let me take that question
03:47right to Lukas Mandel.
03:49Defense strategy or not?
03:50Oh,
03:50it's like everybody
03:51needs an insurance
03:52if you're driving a car
03:54or doing whatever.
03:55You need insurance
03:56and spending money
03:57for defense
03:58is an insurance
03:59for our security
04:00in the first place.
04:01And secondly,
04:02it's also for the very cause
04:04of Europe's prosperity
04:05because the more
04:06we can innovate
04:07and produce
04:08on European soil,
04:09the better for jobs,
04:10for growth
04:11and for Europe's
04:12economic future.
04:14On this point,
04:15connecting Europe stronger.
04:17I mean,
04:18it's not like
04:18Europe doesn't have
04:19armies,
04:20it doesn't have had armies
04:21or defense spending before.
04:23Isn't the problem
04:24really inefficiency
04:26and fragmentation
04:27in Europe
04:28when we talk
04:28about military?
04:29Well,
04:29I remember
04:29the European Commission,
04:31the previous one,
04:31the one of Jean-Claude Juncker,
04:33you know,
04:33saying,
04:34if we work together
04:35better at European level,
04:36we can save
04:37100 billion,
04:38up to 100 billion euros
04:40on defense spending.
04:42I'm like,
04:43that's marvelous.
04:44Let's do that, right?
04:45And now you see,
04:45no,
04:45we work together better,
04:46but we also need
04:47to spend hundreds
04:48of billions more
04:49while we're already
04:51outspending
04:52vast amount of countries
04:53in the world.
04:54Most countries
04:55in the world
04:55spend a lot less
04:56than European countries do.
04:57We need to really,
04:58really be aware of that.
05:00So there is no underfunding?
05:02Oh,
05:02there's absolutely
05:03no underfunding.
05:03There might be
05:04a very bad use
05:05of some of the funds.
05:06This is something else.
05:06We've seen it
05:07at European level as well.
05:08You know,
05:08until very recently,
05:09drones were not
05:10a priority,
05:11not a top priority
05:12of the European
05:13defense spending,
05:14then suddenly
05:15became everything.
05:16You know,
05:16drones were everything
05:18we needed,
05:18the Alpha,
05:18the Omega,
05:19and now we're again,
05:20yeah,
05:20maybe it's not drones
05:21that are the main priority.
05:23So this is what I was saying.
05:24There's no real strategy,
05:25but there is an idea
05:26of saying Europe,
05:27you know,
05:27should be a main player globally.
05:30This is not about defense.
05:32This is about Europe
05:33being able to project power
05:34in the rest of the world,
05:35you know,
05:36in Africa,
05:37in the Middle East,
05:38not defense,
05:38attack.
05:39Do you agree?
05:41We have big underfunding.
05:43We have had it
05:44for many decades
05:45in Europe.
05:46We have to invest
05:47in drones.
05:47I really want to address
05:49these conspiracy theories
05:50that are there
05:51as if it would not be
05:52for our defense,
05:53but for a different cause.
05:54It's for our defense.
05:55Europe is the very entity
05:57on this planet
05:57that's planning military
06:00matters in the very field
06:02of defense,
06:03not in the field of attack.
06:04and drones are obviously
06:05what's really needed
06:06in today's warfare.
06:08And if we are well equipped
06:10in the field of drones,
06:11if we have innovation
06:12also in the drones field
06:13and also production
06:14on European soil
06:15for jobs and prosperity,
06:17then we have a smaller probability
06:19that we will be attacked
06:20because we will be more secure
06:22if we are able
06:23to defend ourselves.
06:24And this is the whole philosophy
06:25of defense.
06:27So our security is at stake
06:29and I think conspiracy theories
06:31are rather harming
06:33our European unity
06:34and our European defense capability.
06:36First of all,
06:36I don't think the massive increase
06:38is justified.
06:39Let's say this first.
06:40Secondly,
06:41I think it actually will weaken Europe
06:42on the long term as well
06:44because contrary to what you're saying,
06:46it is not a good idea
06:47for our industry.
06:48You know,
06:48we have,
06:49you speak about jobs.
06:50Basically,
06:50the defense industry
06:51yields less jobs
06:52for money invested
06:53than other sectors do.
06:55You will not save
06:56the steel industry
06:57with militarization.
06:58You know,
06:59producing 1,000 tanks,
07:00it's about three days
07:01of production
07:02of a steel factory.
07:03So you can see
07:03that you're actually weakening also.
07:05There's a negative multiplier effect
07:07that might be applied
07:08to other industries.
07:10So you're weakening structurally
07:11the industrial base of Europe
07:13by saying we put more defense
07:14but we will lose other sectors.
07:16Look at the automobile sector.
07:17And secondly,
07:18indeed,
07:19what is the threat
07:20that justifies,
07:21you know,
07:21this massive...
07:22Why, for example,
07:23if I hear the German chancellor,
07:25right,
07:25saying,
07:26I want to have
07:26the biggest army in Europe.
07:28Why do you want
07:29the biggest army in Europe?
07:30Is that your threat assessment?
07:32That the problem is
07:33you don't have
07:33the biggest army in Europe?
07:34We need to be very clear.
07:36There are threats,
07:37you know,
07:37and one of the threats
07:38is the arms race.
07:39One of the threats
07:39is nuclear war.
07:40Let's be very clear.
07:41This is very clear.
07:42How do you deal with that?
07:44During the Cold War,
07:45we knew disarmament,
07:48transparency,
07:49limitations
07:50on arms control systems.
07:51All of these things
07:53we knew during the Cold War
07:54with the Soviet Union
07:55that was vastly more powerful
07:56and vastly more ideological
07:59than Putin
07:59or Putin's Russia
08:00will ever be.
08:01Okay.
08:02Do you hear this?
08:02In the Cold War,
08:03freedom won against dictatorship.
08:05And this was,
08:06of course,
08:07due to deterrence.
08:09And deterrence
08:10is what is needed.
08:11Deterrence will also save us.
08:12And deterrence
08:12is only possible
08:13if we can take care
08:14of ourselves.
08:15and the security sector
08:17and industries
08:18is not isolated
08:19from other sectors.
08:20We have to understand Europe
08:21and I really care
08:22for Europe's prosperity,
08:23for jobs on our continent
08:24and for the future
08:25of the generations ahead.
08:28Europe became
08:29a continent of consumption.
08:30We have been consuming
08:31over decades
08:32innovation from America,
08:34production from China
08:36and other parts of Asia,
08:38also innovation from China
08:39in the meantime.
08:40So we need innovation
08:41on European soil.
08:42We also need production
08:43on European soil.
08:44And when you talk about
08:45the automotive sector,
08:46there are not many sectors
08:47as much connected
08:48to the security sector
08:49as this one.
08:50So security and economy
08:52has to be taken serious.
08:55That's why I'm also saying
08:56let's put first things first.
08:58This must be the priority.
08:59But I guess the threat assessment
09:02is different
09:02in the Baltics
09:04and in Portugal, right?
09:06So I'm coming back
09:07to Putin here.
09:08Shall we take him seriously?
09:09Shall we fear him?
09:10Is this whole build-up
09:12a response
09:13to Russian assertiveness
09:15and aggression?
09:16I think we invoke
09:18the Russian aggression
09:18in Ukraine
09:19to justify programs
09:21that existed before.
09:22Let's not forget
09:22that, for example,
09:23the European Defense Fund
09:24was started before
09:25the current war in Ukraine.
09:27So there is, of course...
09:28I mean, the Defense Fund
09:29was so important
09:30for Europe
09:31to be started ahead
09:33of the Russian attack.
09:34But the quantity
09:35is so important.
09:36The connection
09:37is so important.
09:37when we see...
09:38You should not underestimate
09:39our need.
09:40Let me get back.
09:41First of all,
09:42with these things,
09:43we're putting a lot of money,
09:44extra money,
09:45you know,
09:46by saying Russia is going...
09:47There's a contradiction
09:48in European mainstream discourse
09:50which is saying
09:51at the same time
09:52that Russia is extremely weak,
09:54is losing in Ukraine
09:55and we might be able
09:56to free Ukraine
09:57from Russian occupation militarily.
09:59And then you have
10:00these images
10:01of the Red Square in Moscow
10:02where there's no parade.
10:04And on the other hand,
10:05the fact that Putin
10:06would be able
10:06to conquer the whole of Europe.
10:08You know,
10:08these are two things
10:09that are obviously incompatible
10:10right now at the same moment.
10:12But we don't want to find out.
10:13What we don't want to find out
10:14is right now
10:15what, for example,
10:16a desperate Russia would do,
10:18right?
10:19Could it be more desperate
10:20than it already is?
10:21Sorry?
10:22I mean,
10:22do you see any reliability
10:24or predictability
10:26in Putin's regime?
10:27There is already
10:28total desperation
10:30so we have to be
10:31able to defend ourselves.
10:32I agree with the commission's president
10:33who has stated
10:34we have to keep our hand
10:36reached out
10:37to the other Russia.
10:38I'm absolutely aware of that,
10:40that after Putin's regime,
10:42we have to give Russia
10:43the chance
10:44to become a democratic
10:46rule of law-based state
10:47like other European countries.
10:48We need to do diplomacy right now.
10:50And this is the disaster,
10:51the disaster of this European Union.
10:53We have forgotten
10:55what diplomacy is.
10:56Talk to other people.
10:57And diplomacy doesn't mean
10:59going having a drink
11:00with a friend.
11:01Diplomacy is talking
11:03to the opponent,
11:04to the adversary,
11:04to the enemy.
11:05This is to de-escalate
11:07and to limit conflict.
11:09And most countries
11:09in the world
11:10have tried this
11:11and the European Union
11:12has refused.
11:12Now I see Angela Merkel,
11:13you know,
11:14who got the Order of Merit.
11:15I see Alexander Stubbs saying,
11:17we need to do that.
11:17Right.
11:17A lot of names floating around.
11:19We'll come back to this later,
11:21but I want to stop you here
11:22as we're just getting
11:23warmed up,
11:24as you can see.
11:29Now it's time
11:30for our viewers
11:30to get a real flavor
11:31of the European Parliament Chamber
11:33where members
11:34ask each other questions.
11:36And sometimes
11:36it can get heated.
11:38So let's get started.
11:40Lukas Madl,
11:41I'm going to ask you
11:42to ask the first question
11:43to Mark.
11:45Well,
11:46Mark Potenga,
11:47as a colleague
11:47in the European Parliament,
11:48how can we
11:49make sure
11:50that we establish
11:51more freedom
11:52for the Europeans
11:53to the inside
11:53and more strength
11:54to the outside?
11:55This is the overall
11:56issue of our time,
11:57I would say.
11:57Europe needs more strength
11:58for its civilization,
12:00for its reliability,
12:01the diplomatic approach
12:02that you obviously
12:04do not see
12:05from the European side
12:06while Europe
12:06is the strongest
12:08diplomatic power
12:09given the geopolitical
12:10situation today.
12:11So how can we create
12:12more strength
12:12to the outside
12:13and how can we establish
12:14more freedom
12:15to the inside
12:15for our citizens?
12:16I think that's
12:17a very interesting question
12:18coming from the center-right
12:19who's governing
12:20in many governments
12:21in Europe
12:21and who's basically
12:23limiting the right
12:24to protest,
12:25who's limiting
12:26the right to strike,
12:27who's limiting
12:28basically fundamental
12:29freedoms of Europeans.
12:31So I would say
12:32first thing,
12:33please tell the governments
12:35of your political group,
12:36of your political party
12:37to stop limiting
12:39the fundamental freedoms
12:40of Europeans.
12:41And secondly,
12:42towards the outside,
12:43I need,
12:44we need,
12:45I think,
12:46to rebuild
12:46European credibility.
12:48And how do we do that?
12:49We do that
12:50by stopping
12:50the double standards.
12:51by no longer saying
12:53international law
12:54is important
12:54for us in Ukraine,
12:56but in Palestine
12:56we don't care.
12:57International law
12:58is important
12:59when Russia
13:00or Putin violates it,
13:01but we don't care
13:02when Trump
13:03violates international law.
13:04Because if you have
13:05these double standards,
13:07never ever
13:07will other countries
13:09take you seriously.
13:10And never ever
13:11will you be
13:11a decent player
13:12on the international scale.
13:14Okay,
13:14on this,
13:15I think
13:15you want to follow up.
13:17I mean,
13:18there is so much
13:18to be said.
13:20I think it was now
13:21the fourth or fifth
13:22conspiracy theory
13:23from Mr. Potenga
13:24in today's talk
13:24about freedom
13:26being limited in Europe.
13:27There is no part
13:28on this planet,
13:29no continent,
13:30no country
13:30where freedom
13:31is so much established
13:32and so much defended
13:33and strong
13:34as it is in Europe.
13:36Obviously,
13:37also that we have
13:37this debate today,
13:39also that extremists
13:40have all democratic rights
13:42in parliaments
13:43in Europe,
13:43including the very
13:45European Parliament.
13:46All of this
13:46is about freedom.
13:47And then,
13:48mixing things up
13:49doesn't make it better.
13:50Of course,
13:51when international law
13:52is violated,
13:53Europe is the strongest voice
13:54speaking about that.
13:55Europe stood strong
13:56against Trump's attempt,
13:58for example,
13:59when it comes to Greenland
14:00and we succeeded
14:01in that area.
14:02Europe stood strong
14:03when it was not clear
14:05whether the terrorists
14:06will go that way
14:07or the other way
14:07from Trump's side.
14:09He put us in a limbo again,
14:11but we didn't follow
14:11this pathway
14:12of a limbo.
14:13We didn't enter
14:13this political battlefield
14:15of Trump.
14:16We stood strong
14:16and we managed
14:18to succeed more
14:20when it comes
14:21to the geopolitical tensions
14:22given than other parts
14:24of the world.
14:25But, of course,
14:25we need more strength
14:26to the outside,
14:27especially in that field
14:28you are doubting
14:29in the field
14:30of our own security
14:31and being able
14:32to take care of it.
14:33Mark Maggiac,
14:33you want to react?
14:34And then,
14:35your question
14:36to Lucas Mandel.
14:36Well,
14:37I think it's interesting
14:37because very often
14:39the EPP
14:39and central parties,
14:41when they don't have
14:41an answer,
14:41they say,
14:42this is a conspiracy theory.
14:43What we see in many countries,
14:44like in Germany now,
14:45there's a debate
14:46even on saying
14:47we can't use
14:47the watermelon anymore
14:48as a political symbol
14:49because it would be
14:50anti-Semitic.
14:51This is what we are seeing.
14:52We're seeing this also
14:53with action against
14:55trade unions
14:55in different countries.
14:56so we see that there's
14:57democratic backsliding
14:58which human rights
14:59organizations are pointing
15:00out in Europe.
15:01You know,
15:01it's not some kind
15:02of left conspiracy
15:03to say that.
15:04But you don't want
15:05to see it because
15:06it's your governments
15:06doing it.
15:07Secondly,
15:08what I indeed want
15:09to ask now,
15:10and I think
15:11that's a thing,
15:12you say
15:15that Europe stands up
15:16for international law
15:17and you quote Greenland.
15:19Europe didn't stand up
15:20for international law
15:21in Greenland.
15:22it stood up
15:22for its own
15:23territorial integrity.
15:25That is something
15:26very different
15:27because when we had
15:28to stand up
15:29for international law,
15:30the illegal war on Iran,
15:32you supported it yourself.
15:33When it is about
15:34denouncing the illegal
15:35occupation of Lebanon
15:37by Israel,
15:37you support it.
15:38When the International
15:39Court of Justice
15:40says that we should
15:41sanction Israel
15:42as third parties,
15:43we have a responsibility,
15:44you refuse it.
15:45So basically,
15:46when, you know,
15:47the Venezuelan president,
15:48whatever we think of him,
15:49is kidnapped illegally
15:51and the world
15:51globally condemns this,
15:53saying this is just
15:54absolutely not
15:55how we deal with,
15:56how would I say,
15:57with international relations
15:58and this is a violation
15:59of the UN Charter,
16:00you support it.
16:01So this is the issue,
16:02these double standards,
16:04it's not Europe
16:04that has double standards,
16:06you know,
16:06it is you,
16:07it is the governing coalition
16:08of Europe
16:09that has these double standards.
16:10Look,
16:11who is dealing
16:12with international law,
16:13who is in the lead
16:15of preserving it
16:16and observing it
16:17as the United Nations?
16:18We had yesterday night
16:19in the European Parliament's
16:20plenary a debate
16:21on the United Nations
16:22necessary reform.
16:24United Nations
16:25have to be reformed
16:26for obvious reasons
16:27and if you are telling now
16:30that the war
16:32on the Iranian regime
16:33was wrong,
16:35I say,
16:35yeah,
16:35it was amateurishly done
16:37by the United States
16:38while the decapitation
16:40of the Mueller regime's
16:42leaders worked very well.
16:44But the war obviously
16:45was wrong
16:46because it didn't work out well.
16:47the Mueller regime
16:48is still in place.
16:49I have been sanctioned myself
16:50by the Mueller regime
16:51since 2023,
16:52so I know what I'm talking about
16:54when I say
16:55women are suppressed
16:56in Iran.
16:57Iran is threatening
16:58the whole world,
16:59not only the region,
17:00and of course
17:01to threaten our
17:03only partner country
17:04in the region,
17:05the only democracy,
17:06the only rule of law-based state
17:07in the region,
17:08Israel,
17:08is part of
17:10the conspiracy theories
17:11of your political side.
17:12And this is a sign
17:13of freedom in Europe
17:14that you can speak
17:14freely about that,
17:16even if it's a very
17:19much in minority
17:21being opinion,
17:22but you're allowed
17:24to say that
17:24and there are no
17:25many parts on Earth
17:26where you can do that.
17:27And last point
17:27on Greenland,
17:29I mean,
17:29when international law
17:29is violated,
17:30it doesn't matter
17:30whether it's Europe's
17:31interest or ours' interest,
17:32we care for international law,
17:34we even want to
17:34save international law
17:36during these
17:36geopolitical times
17:37of tensions,
17:39and that means
17:40that we have to
17:41reform the United Nations.
17:42Okay,
17:42thank you for a great
17:44debate so far.
17:45We've heard your views.
17:47Now it's time to hear
17:48from a new voice.
17:54And for our quote
17:56of the week,
17:56I would like to bring
17:57in Italian Prime Minister
17:58Georgia Meloni.
17:59In a letter addressed
18:01to Commission President
18:01Ursula von der Leyen,
18:03she said this,
18:04we cannot justify
18:06to our citizens
18:07that the EU
18:08allows financial flexibility
18:10to be used
18:10for security
18:11and defense purposes
18:13in the strictest sense,
18:15but not to protect
18:16families,
18:17workers,
18:17and enterprises
18:18from a new energy crisis
18:19that threatens
18:20to severely impact
18:22the real economy.
18:25Your take on this,
18:27Mark.
18:27Well,
18:27two things.
18:28First,
18:28she's walked back
18:29to on her statement.
18:29Secondly,
18:30it's terribly hypocritical
18:32because the fact
18:33that we now have,
18:34again,
18:35these horrible austerity rules
18:37was approved
18:38by her government.
18:38So first,
18:39and this is fantastic,
18:40first,
18:41the far right
18:41approves this,
18:42or the center right,
18:43whatever you want
18:44to call her,
18:45approves these rules,
18:46and then they say,
18:46ah,
18:46it's not fair.
18:47So this is,
18:48you know,
18:48pure populism.
18:50But what is true
18:51is that Europe today
18:52says there's no money
18:54for your hospitals,
18:55for your pensions,
18:56for your schools,
18:57but miraculously,
18:59we find hundreds
18:59of billions
19:00for the defense
19:01multinationals.
19:02You know,
19:02this contradiction
19:03is real.
19:04And so,
19:04indeed,
19:05we do not need
19:06these austerity rules
19:07anymore.
19:07And once again,
19:08they've been imposed
19:09by the mainstream parties,
19:10including Georgia Maloney's.
19:12Okay.
19:12Lucas Mandel,
19:13your reaction?
19:14Yeah,
19:14this is part
19:14of the extremist
19:15populist approach.
19:16I think also
19:16the consumers,
19:18viewers of this program
19:18should see that
19:20there's no contradiction
19:21between producing
19:22something on European soil
19:23instead from buying it
19:25from outside
19:26and having hospitals
19:27and schools
19:29and streets
19:29because the one thing
19:31is connected
19:31with the other.
19:32If we have strong prosperity,
19:34if we have growth,
19:34finally,
19:35in Europe again,
19:36we will also be able
19:37to afford
19:37the social welfare states
19:38we have established
19:39generations before us
19:40have established in Europe
19:41and we will have
19:42schools and roads.
19:43All right.
19:43We're going to continue
19:44the conversation,
19:45but now I have to
19:46take a break
19:47here on The Ring.
19:48We'll be back
19:48with more
19:49after this.
19:50Stay with us.
19:59Welcome back to The Ring,
20:01Euronews' weekly debate show.
20:03I'm Stefan Gorbe
20:04and I'm joined by
20:05Lukas Mandl
20:06from the European People's Party
20:07from Austria
20:08and Mark Bottenga
20:09from the left group
20:10from Belgium.
20:11At this point,
20:13let's take a look
20:13at the transatlantic partnership
20:15regarding defense.
20:17Trump wants to weaken
20:19the NATO alliance
20:20and seems increasingly
20:21noncommittal
20:21to common defense.
20:23But the military business
20:24is showing a different picture.
20:26So here are some numbers
20:27from the Stockholm
20:28International Peace Research Institute.
20:31According to that institute,
20:3364% of European NATO weapons imports
20:35come from the United States.
20:38And European arms imports
20:40rose by more than 150%
20:42between 2020 and 2024
20:44compared to the previous period.
20:46U.S. arms exports to Europe
20:49increased by more than 200%
20:51in the same period.
20:53So Europe is now
20:54the world's largest arms
20:56important region.
20:59Lukas Mandl,
21:00hearing these numbers,
21:01your comments.
21:02We had a time
21:03of many good beginnings
21:04since the beginning
21:06of Putin-Russia's war.
21:07But spending is not everything.
21:08I've emphasized that before.
21:10It's about where to spend.
21:12It's about the connection
21:14between the armed forces
21:15of the member states
21:16and also the understanding
21:18of the various different threats.
21:19Now we see the situation
21:20that the United States
21:21are obviously willing
21:24to reduce their number
21:26of troops on European soil.
21:27I think that's not only
21:29a development due to
21:31the given current
21:32U.S. administration
21:33under Trump.
21:34It was generally something
21:35that had to be expected
21:37over decades.
21:38And a mature Europe
21:40will anyway be able
21:41to take care of itself.
21:42but I do not want
21:43to have confrontation
21:44with other parts of the world.
21:45I want cooperation
21:45but on the basis
21:46of European strength.
21:48Okay.
21:49How can we be
21:49strategically independent
21:51by buying American weapons?
21:53Oh, we cannot.
21:54Let's be very clear.
21:54If you buy, for example,
21:55I mentioned the F-35 fighters
21:57just before.
21:58Making a little bit
21:59of a cartoon out of it,
22:00you could say
22:01that with one push
22:02of the button,
22:03Trump can deactivate them.
22:04So if it were to,
22:05I don't know,
22:06defend Greenland,
22:07they would be
22:07completely useless.
22:09We do need to think
22:11how you create
22:12this autonomy.
22:13This you can do
22:13in different ways.
22:14One of the ways
22:15I would suggest
22:16is to say
22:17we need to diversify
22:18partnerships.
22:18So this idea
22:19of we need to,
22:20we are locking ourselves
22:21up in this kind
22:23of submissive attitude
22:25towards Trump.
22:26We've seen it as well
22:26with the trade deal
22:27and the EU-U.S. trade deal
22:28where we accept
22:30to give tariff-free
22:32access to the European market
22:33for many, many goods
22:34from the U.S.
22:35But ourselves,
22:36you know,
22:36we see that we impose
22:37What do you mean
22:38by diversifying?
22:39Is it buying
22:39from Brazil or India?
22:40Yeah, for example.
22:41I mean,
22:42you have your own industry,
22:43obviously, you know.
22:44You produce what you want to produce.
22:45In the first place,
22:45we have to produce ourselves.
22:47But secondly,
22:47no, no,
22:48but we produce ourselves.
22:50That's not,
22:50I mean,
22:51because you said before
22:52that we do not produce anymore.
22:54First of all,
22:55this deindustrialization,
22:56which is true
22:57and which is real,
22:59is not a gift from God.
23:01This is a consequence
23:02of policies
23:03that have been waged
23:04on this continent
23:05by your group.
23:06So let's not pretend
23:08this comes from nowhere.
23:09Workers throughout Europe
23:10have seen their jobs
23:11disappear in industry
23:13because of the policies,
23:15the market-driven policies
23:16your group has imposed
23:17on this continent.
23:18So yes,
23:19we need to...
23:19I agree with the point
23:19that Europe has its own
23:20responsibility here,
23:21but it clearly came
23:22from ideological left sources
23:24that we had these policies.
23:25But you were the one
23:26governing it.
23:26This was a market approach.
23:28How can you say
23:29the left is responsible for it?
23:31But this makes no sense.
23:33We have better majorities
23:34in the European Parliament.
23:35Listen, I'm ready
23:36to have a debate of ideas.
23:37I'm ready to have a debate
23:39of ideas,
23:39but you cannot say
23:40that it has been
23:41the left pushing
23:42for liberalization,
23:44that it has been
23:44the left pushing
23:46for privatization,
23:48for the sellout
23:49of our industries.
23:50This is just not true.
23:51This is center-right policy.
23:53But this makes no sense.
23:55I mean,
23:55let's have an honest debate
23:57on ideas.
23:58And killing jobs.
23:59Let's have an honest debate
24:01on ideas.
24:01It's been the center-right,
24:03sometimes with social democrats
24:04in the coalition,
24:05that has sold off
24:06our industries
24:07and that has privatized,
24:08liberalized our markets.
24:10And this would create,
24:11I don't know
24:11what kind of Eldorado.
24:13The reality today
24:14is what?
24:16Deindustrialization
24:16and a lot of issues
24:18for European industry.
24:19We need more freedom.
24:21We still need more liberalization.
24:22sufficiently
24:23in public energy infrastructure.
24:25And today,
24:26our industries
24:26are being chased away
24:27by the fact
24:28that the energy prices
24:29are too high.
24:29And still today,
24:30you're sabotaging
24:31the cheapest energy
24:32that would be green energy,
24:34keeping us dependent
24:35on fossil fuels
24:36from I don't know
24:36what countries.
24:37All right.
24:38We'll come back to this.
24:39And now it's the time
24:41to move on
24:41to our fifth
24:42and final round.
24:47And we want to do
24:48something different now.
24:49I'm going to ask you
24:50a set of questions
24:51and you can only answer
24:52with a yes or no.
24:54Okay?
24:55Lukas Manda,
24:56I'll start with you.
24:56Should there be
24:57a common European army?
24:59On the long run,
25:00yes.
25:01No, not now.
25:02No.
25:03Okay.
25:04Can Europe realistically
25:05build credible military autonomy
25:08without duplicating
25:09NATO structures?
25:11It's a long debate.
25:12I just want to say,
25:13yes,
25:13if that's the question,
25:14yes, we can.
25:15I think we should work
25:16on a common security
25:17architecture in Europe.
25:19Okay.
25:20No, we can't.
25:21We have to do it
25:22within NATO.
25:23We have to reform NATO,
25:24such as UN also.
25:26And, of course,
25:27it will be within NATO
25:28because to have redundancies
25:31is the worst thing
25:32we can do
25:32with taxpayers' money
25:33and also with our security.
25:34Okay.
25:35Will NATO
25:35outlive Donald Trump?
25:38Absolutely.
25:39I hope not.
25:40You hope not?
25:41Yes.
25:42I mean,
25:42I think NATO today,
25:44you know,
25:44NATO is something
25:45that comes from the Cold War.
25:46It had a sense at the time,
25:47the War Show Pact
25:48against NATO.
25:50Today,
25:51we need a common
25:52European security architecture.
25:54NATO is something
25:54from the past
25:55and Donald Trump
25:56is the living illustration
25:57of this.
25:58Interesting.
25:59And finally,
26:00was there anything
26:01over the last half hour
26:04that you think
26:06your opponent said
26:07that you can agree with?
26:09I can't say that.
26:11only maybe
26:11that European economic trouble
26:13is also based
26:14on our own
26:15European responsibility
26:16from the past,
26:17but I wouldn't direct that
26:20to the very center of politics.
26:23It was the extremists
26:24who were stronger
26:24over decades.
26:25Now we have better maturities
26:26in the European Parliament.
26:27Now we lift burden
26:28from our businesses.
26:30So maybe we agree on that.
26:32And I'm very happy
26:33to be European,
26:34seeing that somebody
26:35from the far extremists,
26:37in that case to the left,
26:38they are also ones to the right,
26:39are allowed to speak freely
26:41and there are not many parts
26:42of the world
26:43where this is possible.
26:44Any agreements
26:45with Lucas Maldon?
26:45Well, definitely not
26:46with this part.
26:47I mean, the far right
26:47has never been stronger
26:48in this parliament
26:49than you say
26:50that normal parties
26:51are stronger.
26:51That's very weird.
26:52One point I think
26:53I agree on
26:54is the fact
26:55that the issue
26:57with, let's say,
26:58defense and security
26:59is not a matter
27:01of more money.
27:02It's a matter
27:02of more cooperation.
27:03And this, I think,
27:05he said,
27:05but this kind of
27:06contradicts the position
27:07of saying
27:07we need more money
27:08for defense.
27:09But I agree on this part.
27:10We need more cooperation
27:11and more coordination.
27:13Wonderful.
27:14And that final answer
27:15brings us to the end
27:16of this edition
27:17of The Ring.
27:18Thanks again
27:18to Marc Buttenga
27:19and Lucas Mandl
27:21for a lively conversation
27:22here from the European Parliament.
27:23Thanks to our audience
27:24at home.
27:25If you like,
27:26you can continue
27:26the conversation
27:27by sending us
27:28your comments
27:29to TheRing
27:30at Euronews.com.
27:32We'd love to have
27:33your feedback.
27:34That's it for today.
27:36I'm Stefan Grobe.
27:37Take care
27:37and see you soon
27:38on Euronews.
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