00:00This is what we call a broken market.
00:02It could be 40 million people dying.
00:05We need new antibiotics.
00:13Hello and welcome to The Big Question,
00:17a series from Euronews where we speak
00:19to some of the most influential people
00:21in the world of business.
00:23I'm Angela Barnes and today I'm joined
00:25by Estelle Frouchet, the general manager
00:28in France at Shinogi Europe.
00:31It's a pleasure to have you with us
00:32on the show today, Estelle.
00:34Thank you. It's a pleasure for me.
00:36Great. Well, first of all, Estelle,
00:37let's start off by if you could just talk to us
00:39about what Shinogi Europe does.
00:42Absolutely. Shinogi is a Japanese company
00:44who is developing antimicrobials
00:48for almost 150 years
00:51and we are committed to the fight
00:55against antimicrobial resistance, AMR,
00:58we call it, and it's really a major threat today
01:01for public health, but also for the future.
01:03Okay, let's call it AMR, as you said,
01:05the abbreviated version there going forward.
01:08This essentially is when infections become harder to treat
01:11because medicines stop working.
01:13Is that correct?
01:13Absolutely. Antimicrobial resistance
01:17is a natural process.
01:20Let me explain.
01:21You know, a bacteria, the microbe,
01:24is a smart agent
01:25and they are adapting to their environment.
01:28Okay, so when the body ingests an antibiotic,
01:33it will kill the sensitive bacteria,
01:36but some will remain.
01:38They are the survivor,
01:39they are the resistant,
01:41and they become dominant.
01:42And they are what we call the bad bug or the super bugs.
01:46How concerned should we be here in Europe about AMR?
01:49It is a major threat
01:51and it's really a challenge for today and for the future.
01:55So if you take the example of a simple woman
02:00with an infection of urinary tract,
02:03a lot of them cannot be solved and cured anymore
02:06with the classic antibiotics.
02:08So those women need to go to the hospital for infusion.
02:10So if we don't do anything or more,
02:14if we do not develop more new drugs,
02:17in 2035, there will be 90% of the infection
02:21with the super bugs.
02:23And today, it's already worldwide
02:261.3 million people dying from it.
02:30This is a lot.
02:30It's like a whole major city in Europe,
02:34like Milan, you know, every year.
02:35And it's an increasing fact.
02:37Why is that the case now?
02:39There are many reasons, you know,
02:40the overuse of antibiotics a long time ago.
02:44You know, I'm a pharmacist.
02:45When I started 25 years ago,
02:48there was a lot of prescription of antibiotics
02:51for a simple cough.
02:52And the more you use them,
02:54the more the bacteria can become resistant.
02:57They have opportunities for that.
02:59So that's one reason.
03:00And today, the other reason is that
03:03we don't have enough active antibiotics.
03:05Again, those resistant bacteria.
03:14Let's talk about the economic impact beyond health, Estelle.
03:19What is AMR costing Europe today?
03:22Let's take the example of a friend of mine.
03:24She was suffering of a breast cancer.
03:27So we know all what is breast cancer.
03:30It's surgery.
03:31It's a long run of chemotherapy.
03:33And she was almost in remission from her cancer.
03:37And one of the last injections of chemotherapy,
03:40she got a superbug at hospital.
03:42What did it mean for her?
03:44She had to stay at hospital being infused by a lot of antibiotics.
03:49She even had a stay in incentive care units.
03:52And she was not able to work.
03:54So all that mean costs, you know.
03:57And if you take, to answer your question directly,
04:00if you take Europe every year,
04:03this is 12 billion euro,
04:05the cost of antimicrobial resistance,
04:08the cost of superbugs.
04:09So this is a lot.
04:10Okay.
04:10And if Europe stays on its current path,
04:12what could the next 10 to 25 years look like?
04:16If we look at the projections that have been done,
04:19you know, today, yearly,
04:21this is 1.3 million people dying.
04:24And from now to 2050,
04:27it could be 40 million people dying from superbug.
04:32So this is a lot, really.
04:34It means that the costs have a risk
04:36to increase dramatically as well.
04:38We're talking about a major public health concern
04:42for which we need new antibiotics.
04:46So we really need to act,
04:50all of us, collaboratively
04:52in order to win this race.
04:55This is kind of a race, you know,
04:56superbugs versus new products.
04:59And it's a collaboration to win that race.
05:02We need new antibiotics, you say.
05:05But with that comes great investment, of course.
05:07How much investment is needed?
05:09Does it need to come from governments?
05:11Does it need to come from private capital?
05:13How do we meet the challenge?
05:15We need industry to invest.
05:17And unfortunately,
05:19this is not any more sustainable
05:22to develop an antibiotic.
05:24Why that?
05:25This is what we call a broken market, you know.
05:28Developing a drug
05:30takes 10 to 15 years.
05:33It costs 1 billion
05:35and 95% are failure.
05:38So, and when we talk about...
05:4095%?
05:41Yes, are failure of development.
05:43Failure of development, wow.
05:44So, and when we talk about an antibiotic,
05:48its usage must be limited
05:50to avoid resistance.
05:52And in our country,
05:53the price are quite low.
05:54So, this is not very sustainable
05:56to develop antibiotics.
05:58So, that's why we need
06:00a new economic model.
06:02We need government to think about
06:04and to propose new financing schemes
06:07to become more attractive
06:10for the industry.
06:11So, what incentives would you say
06:13are needed to bring investment
06:14back more widely?
06:16Yes, there are different
06:18kind of incentives.
06:19There are what we call
06:20the push incentives
06:21to push for more research.
06:24So, it can be grants.
06:25It can be investor donation.
06:28It can be support
06:29for clinical trials.
06:31And there are also
06:32what we call the pull incentive,
06:34which rewards the company
06:36who gave access
06:37to a new antibiotic.
06:39The best example
06:40is the subscription model
06:41in the UK.
06:42because this is a delink
06:44of the revenue
06:45for the company
06:46and the usage of the drug.
06:49You know,
06:49their usage needs to be limited
06:51in order to avoid resistance.
06:53So, it's kind of a Netflix model
06:55where the company
06:57has its revenue
06:58and the drug get access
07:00for the patients
07:00in the country.
07:01And, Estelle,
07:03at Shinogi,
07:04you're developing,
07:04obviously,
07:05new AMR therapies.
07:06Given how long
07:07drug development takes,
07:09as you've said,
07:10can innovation,
07:11though,
07:11realistically move
07:12as quickly
07:12as you'd like it to
07:14to make a difference
07:15this decade,
07:16for example?
07:18Definitely, yes.
07:19If you take WHO,
07:22what they say
07:22is that today
07:23there is around
07:2515 drugs
07:26in the pipeline
07:27against superbugs.
07:28we need to have more of that
07:30and we will have more
07:32if this area
07:33is becoming more attractive
07:35for the company
07:36and it will be
07:37through incentives
07:40which make it sustainable.
07:41Estelle,
07:42thank you very much
07:43for joining us
07:43on The Big Question
07:44and thank you
07:45for sharing your insights
07:46with us on AMR.
07:47It's been a pleasure
07:48to have you on the show.
07:49Thank you very much.
07:50and thank you very much.
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