- 2 days ago
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00:00:47I'm sorry I'm so late.
00:00:49I wonder if anything happened to you.
00:00:50I overslept.
00:00:51Look at you.
00:00:53Look at you.
00:00:57Wow.
00:00:58Thank you for dressing up for me.
00:01:00Sorry, Aunt Priya.
00:01:02Let's drop the aunt for this weekend.
00:01:04You are my aunt, though.
00:01:05Yes, I am.
00:01:06But by marriage.
00:01:07That's important for this conversation.
00:01:09What have I gotten myself into?
00:01:11I promise I will keep it relatively painless.
00:01:14Was that a pun?
00:01:15What was a pun?
00:01:16Relatively painless.
00:01:17Oh, dear God.
00:01:18Unintended.
00:01:20This outfit.
00:01:21I mean, I figured if we were going to be sitting around all weekend, I might as well stay comfortable.
00:01:26Plus, you want to know the best part?
00:01:29There's a flap in the butt.
00:01:30I mean, why?
00:01:31Why?
00:01:31I'm not interested.
00:01:32You're no fun.
00:01:34You look great, though.
00:01:36Did you get all dolled up for me?
00:01:38No.
00:01:38No.
00:01:38Oh, I had a faculty thing this morning.
00:01:41It was online.
00:01:42Meaning no one was wearing pants?
00:01:43This is a man in pajamas with no underwear.
00:01:46I don't remember telling you that I wasn't wearing underwear.
00:01:49But I guess if that's what you pictured.
00:01:51Two minutes in and you're already caught on your little tape thingy being inappropriate.
00:01:56You are recording this, right?
00:01:57No, not yet.
00:01:58I'll tell you first.
00:01:59Yeah, I'm not rushing you at all.
00:02:01I just get kind of antsy.
00:02:04But luckily, Jasper let me borrow his little magnets.
00:02:09We got them for his anxiety, but honestly, I use them more than he does.
00:02:13Oh, let me see.
00:02:13Yeah, I've seen.
00:02:16Yeah, no.
00:02:17Get ahead of that.
00:02:18I have these guys.
00:02:20Oh, wow.
00:02:22I've never seen these.
00:02:25Wow, that is really soothing.
00:02:27You can use them for the weekend.
00:02:30How are the kids and Kristen doing?
00:02:31Well, uh, Kristen just stopped traveling for work, so they're sort of adjusting to being
00:02:35around each other this much.
00:02:37But the kids are so cute.
00:02:39Want to see?
00:02:40Well, I mean, between you and Kristen, how could they not be gorgeous?
00:02:42Here they are.
00:02:44Cute times two.
00:02:45They are adorable.
00:02:46I know.
00:02:46Were they so sad to lose you for the weekend?
00:02:47Oh, my God.
00:02:48Jasper burst into tears every time the trip was mentioned.
00:02:51Jocelyn is a lot like her mom, and she only barely needs me.
00:02:55What about Uncle Aaron?
00:02:56Or sorry.
00:02:57What about Aaron?
00:02:58Where's the hubs?
00:02:59In London.
00:03:01He's been on the sabbatical and periodically comes back and forth, but he's not here this
00:03:05weekend.
00:03:12Anyway, thank you so much for setting aside the time and making the drive down.
00:03:16I so appreciate it.
00:03:17My publisher called and gave me a hard deadline for this book of hours, so I am really happy
00:03:22to have your full attention.
00:03:24Oh, you do.
00:03:26Oh, your daughter just texted me.
00:03:28I did tell her I was at you today.
00:03:29Uh, apparently Laurel still has that, that Nikki picture that I gave her years ago.
00:03:37Quite a crush on her cousin, the famous model.
00:03:39Briefly famous.
00:03:40Anyhow, see how Laurel kissed me, where it counts.
00:03:44Okay, that, that, you guys are blood cousins.
00:03:46Can, yeah, yeah.
00:03:48Oh shit.
00:03:48Sorry, I'm just seeing all the texts that you sent when I was driving.
00:03:51Okay, if that is Laurel, I will tell her.
00:03:53You can get it if you need to.
00:04:00It's just the home.
00:04:01It's just my dad.
00:04:02Your dad's in the nursing home?
00:04:03Mm-hmm, yeah, he's been there for a while since my mom died, but that is a completely
00:04:06different topic.
00:04:07Sorry.
00:04:08Um, oh no, no, totally fine.
00:04:10Um, Nick, maybe we should turn our phones off so we can all focus.
00:04:16You still only have a weekend, right?
00:04:18Yeah.
00:04:19I think I need to leave by like two or three tomorrow.
00:04:22I thought we had all day tomorrow.
00:04:25No, I'm so sorry.
00:04:26I promised I'd be back by bedtime.
00:04:29Okay, well, why don't we just get right to it then?
00:04:31Oh my God.
00:04:32Your magnum opus, the abusive patriarch-y.
00:04:39You're so sad in the cover of this.
00:04:41Do you remember what happened?
00:04:44Uh, yeah, I ruined what my dad thought was a good photograph with a sneeze.
00:04:50So he spanked me right there in front of the photographer.
00:04:53And that picture was taken right after.
00:04:56If you look really close, you can see the tear marks down my face.
00:05:00Damn.
00:05:01You say all that so casually.
00:05:03Oh, I have worked through it.
00:05:04It's all I've been writing about for years.
00:05:06I'm over it.
00:05:06Everyone else is clearly over it.
00:05:08This is what's so exciting.
00:05:09This book is all about you.
00:05:10Do you have any coffee?
00:05:16Yes, of course I have coffee.
00:05:18But Nick, we really have to do this.
00:05:21Coffee, and then we'll jump right in.
00:05:23I promise.
00:05:24Maybe a quick tour of the place, too.
00:05:26I mean, these columns are incredible.
00:05:40These are so fun.
00:05:42Mm-hmm.
00:05:45Okay.
00:05:47You ready?
00:05:48Uh, recording makes it so real.
00:05:52Yeah.
00:05:54I promise you, Nick, you are in a safe space.
00:05:58Okay.
00:05:59Um, I would like to start off by giving you a compliment.
00:06:02Everything should start by giving me a compliment.
00:06:04Julie noted.
00:06:05I think it is incredible what you represented as a model, as Nikki.
00:06:11Uh, so openly owning your pansexuality.
00:06:13Is that how you identify by the way as pansexual?
00:06:16Yeah, I never really liked defining it.
00:06:18Like, gay or straight or bi boys, girls, blah, blah, blah.
00:06:22And I think a lot of young people would say that today.
00:06:25But that wasn't part of the vernacular back in 2012, right?
00:06:30That's when you had your big rush of fame.
00:06:31Yeah.
00:06:32Ish.
00:06:33And in your current career.
00:06:34I mean, if you can call drawing porn a career.
00:06:37I can.
00:06:37And I do.
00:06:38I think your cartoon work is actually amazing.
00:06:41I think it pushes against taboos.
00:06:44It's very feminist work for me.
00:06:46Wow.
00:06:46Mm-hmm.
00:06:46Well, thanks.
00:06:47And your work has always dealt with the sexual, so why don't we just begin there?
00:06:52Um, what are your earliest sexual memories?
00:06:57Okay.
00:06:57Here we go, I guess.
00:07:00Uh, earliest sexual memories.
00:07:03Do you mean, like, consensual ones?
00:07:06Are there non-consensual ones?
00:07:09Yeah.
00:07:10Um, yeah, my earliest sexual memories were actually with these, uh, these friends of my parents.
00:07:17Um, they would babysit me, and we would, like, take these baths together, and we'd all be naked.
00:07:26And she would, like, cradle me in her arms and try to get me to suck her breasts.
00:07:31He'd, like, scrub us both down.
00:07:34So, that was totally normal.
00:07:36And now it's on the record forever, I guess.
00:07:41I'm sorry that happened to you.
00:07:43I'm totally fine.
00:07:44Mm.
00:07:48Um, I mean, I'm sorry, that's the kind of stuff that your parents should have protected you from, right?
00:07:52They didn't know.
00:07:53Mm-hmm.
00:07:53I didn't tell them, because the couple said that if I did, I'd get in trouble, so.
00:07:59Did you eventually tell them?
00:08:00Uh, yeah.
00:08:02Yeah, much later, I told my dad.
00:08:05Um, but he kind of just brushed it off, so he wouldn't have to take responsibility for it.
00:08:10You know Louis, not exactly big on owning up to shit.
00:08:13Runs in the family.
00:08:14Who, me?
00:08:15No, no, no, not Aaron.
00:08:16Your Uncle Aaron.
00:08:17He is kind and calm, but he's a very scholarly man who just doesn't believe in investigating his own emotions.
00:08:24Mm, yeah.
00:08:25Kristen is anti-emotion, too.
00:08:27She actually hates it when I tell her I love her.
00:08:29Like, she gets visibly upset.
00:08:32It's bizarre.
00:08:35But.
00:08:37That must be hard.
00:08:38I probably shouldn't talk about Kristen, actually.
00:08:40She'll kill me.
00:08:42We can circle back to her.
00:08:44We're not.
00:08:46Okay.
00:08:47Um, Nick, have you given any thought to how this kind of early experience of yours has affected you on
00:08:55a formative level?
00:08:56Like, does it play into your current sex life at all?
00:09:00Um, what are you getting at?
00:09:03I'm not getting at anything.
00:09:04I'm just pursuing a line of thought on how trauma can forge aspects of a human personality and demolish aspects
00:09:10of a human personality.
00:09:11Oh, yeah?
00:09:12Okay.
00:09:14How did trauma demolish your human personality?
00:09:18It seems obliterated.
00:09:20Okay.
00:09:20Let's just change subjects for a while.
00:09:23Um, are you an avid masturbator?
00:09:25Currently?
00:09:26Mm-hmm.
00:09:27I mean, when you're really good at something, you do it as much as you can.
00:09:31Are you really going to put something like that in the book?
00:09:33Oh, I'm just trying to get a complete picture of who you are, your sexual history, current sexual habits, nothing's
00:09:39off limits.
00:09:40Yeah.
00:09:41No, that makes sense.
00:09:42How often do you masturbate?
00:09:44This book is not about me.
00:09:46I-I know, but I figure if I'm going to be laying it all out on the table for you,
00:09:51you can at least reciprocate.
00:09:52Nick, look at that bookshelf over there.
00:09:54Do you see it?
00:09:55My psyche has been mine to death.
00:09:56There's nothing new there.
00:09:57Priya, can we please make this, like, more of a dialogue instead of a stuffy interview, please?
00:10:04I'll be way more comfortable.
00:10:06Okay.
00:10:07Why don't I tell you about when I lost my virginity?
00:10:11It's not really what I-
00:10:13Do you want to hear it?
00:10:14No, I do.
00:10:15Okay.
00:10:15Uh, it was my freshman year of college, and, um-
00:10:19You really held out.
00:10:20Yeah.
00:10:21I wasn't exactly fighting them off.
00:10:23I used to wear only boys' clothes.
00:10:24I wasn't on top of my grooming.
00:10:26All the effects of the abuse, I later learned.
00:10:28But, um, I got my act together in college, and met a guy called Chris.
00:10:32A couple months in, when I decided, you know what, it's time to lose my virginity.
00:10:35And so, we went back to his dorm room one night, and...
00:10:41He had the most massive cock I've ever seen to date.
00:10:43Seriously?
00:10:43I am serious.
00:10:45Like, I wanted to scream.
00:10:47Oh, it was so painful.
00:10:48And then I'm crying, and I'm crying in pain, and he's...
00:10:51He's just saying this all, like, cries of ecstasy.
00:10:54And so he's just like, girl, Chris is just bumping away.
00:10:57Oh, thankfully it did not last long.
00:11:01But that's hilarious.
00:11:03Um, you know, I would have thought you already knew this story.
00:11:07Why?
00:11:08Because I wrote about it in two different books.
00:11:11Books that you have claimed to read.
00:11:15I did read them.
00:11:17Like, most of them.
00:11:19The early ones, at least.
00:11:22You're not alone.
00:11:23I ran out of personal revelations and haven't really navigated any meaningful territory in years.
00:11:28So, don't blame you.
00:11:28That's why I'm so excited to be writing this with you.
00:11:31But your books are still super popular, right?
00:11:32People still buy them and stuff, right?
00:11:35Yeah.
00:11:36We'll see.
00:11:38Anyway, um, why don't you tell me when you first discovered that you were attracted to both sexes?
00:11:44Were you young?
00:11:44Wait, both sexes?
00:11:45Like, you mean you think there are only two?
00:11:48That's good.
00:11:48That's good.
00:11:49Let me rephrase that.
00:11:51When did you start confronting expected gender roles when it came to who you were attracted to?
00:11:59Did I catch it better?
00:12:00Yeah.
00:12:01Okay.
00:12:01I was pretty young.
00:12:02I think I was in fifth grade and I met this girl, Abby.
00:12:07And I remember I thought she was really pretty and she asked me if I would be her boyfriend.
00:12:13And I remember being, like, kind of relieved that I was, like, just pairing off boy-girl, you know?
00:12:19And then I met her brother Ryan and I thought he was really pretty, too.
00:12:25And I remember asking Abby if Ryan liked me and she totally freaked out.
00:12:30Which, in hindsight, I get it's, like, kind of fucked up to ask your little fifth grade girlfriend if someone
00:12:34else is into you, especially if it's her brother.
00:12:37Um, but there was something about the way that she reacted that made me feel really gross for even asking.
00:12:43So I kind of just, like, shelved that away for a long time.
00:12:48Um, if I was, like, into guys, I didn't act on it or date one until art school.
00:12:57And I think a big part of that was that my dad would have murdered me.
00:13:01He's homophobic?
00:13:02Oh, my God.
00:13:03Yeah.
00:13:04Big time.
00:13:05Wasn't he your manager?
00:13:06Yeah.
00:13:06But he never liked the whole Nicky persona.
00:13:10He went along with it for a long time because it was his meal ticket, but he never was very
00:13:14approving.
00:13:16It's so funny.
00:13:17He's emailing me now because he heard about this book and he wants to manage Nicky's comeback, so.
00:13:22What kind of comeback?
00:13:23The kind you wouldn't approve of.
00:13:26Gigs that might pay me some real money again.
00:13:32Um, I've always wondered what motivated your red carpet stunt.
00:13:36Oh, God.
00:13:37That was just kind of a fuck you to the tabloids.
00:13:40Like, print this, bitch, you know?
00:13:42Oh, no, no.
00:13:42They indeed did print it.
00:13:44I think you made them a lot of money, actually.
00:13:46Well, I mean, it felt like a fuck you in the moment.
00:13:48Uh-huh.
00:13:49Yeah.
00:13:51Did you plan that in advance?
00:13:52No.
00:13:53God, no, no, no.
00:13:54I was, I was wearing that, like, wrap thing and there was something about, like, all of this artifice around
00:14:03me.
00:14:03And I just had the impulse.
00:14:06And boom, there I was, naked, in front of a bank of paparazzi.
00:14:15That's most people's nightmares.
00:14:17It's, at least, my nightmare, you know?
00:14:20How does a moment like that feel?
00:14:25Honestly, like, just standing there and just my skin, like, feeling the flashbulbs and...
00:14:38I fucking loved it.
00:14:42It just felt really good.
00:14:47I wonder whether the act of getting naked for you comes easier than the labor of connecting emotionally.
00:14:56Like, it's some kind of, like, shortcut to intimacy and love.
00:15:01It doesn't sound a hundred percent off base.
00:15:04There may be some there, there, I guess, but it was also that whole thing.
00:15:09It was kind of just fun.
00:15:11I'm going to write that down.
00:15:13Fun.
00:15:13Yeah.
00:15:14Okay.
00:15:14Three letters.
00:15:15F-U-N.
00:15:16Yeah.
00:15:16I imagine a whole new sexual world opened up once you got famous.
00:15:20Massive understatement.
00:15:22Yeah.
00:15:22I have to say it was pretty exciting to see you in all these magazines just using your platform so
00:15:28fiercely.
00:15:29Just to talk about your wide-ranging sexuality.
00:15:31It was electrifying.
00:15:34That's very sweet.
00:15:35A lot of people just thought I was a slut.
00:15:38But you owned it, right?
00:15:39I mean, I think that's what I remember most.
00:15:41You just...
00:15:44It's so rare to see someone who refuses to hide who they are and what they want to suit the
00:15:50masses.
00:15:51You make me sound like pan-Jesus.
00:15:54No, I just want you to understand.
00:15:57I get it.
00:15:58I mean, I saw it as just kind of performance art.
00:16:02But I know that it meant a lot to actually a lot of people.
00:16:07Yeah.
00:16:07I think they'd never really seen themselves in the media.
00:16:12You must have changed the trajectory of so many people's lives just by the radical act of being who you
00:16:17are.
00:16:17You know, and I would love for you to get recognition for that.
00:16:21I think this book will help with that.
00:16:24From your questioning so far, it sounds like this book is just about me jerking off.
00:16:29My dirty sex secret.
00:16:30Yeah, partially.
00:16:31But it does tie into the cultural impact, the exchange and interaction you had with your fans.
00:16:37Your sexual exploitation, your highs, your lows.
00:16:40Wait, what?
00:16:41What?
00:16:42I mean, exploitation is...
00:16:46Wait, hold on.
00:16:46I saw your career, Nikki.
00:16:47I watched it.
00:16:48Are you trying to tell me that you weren't exploited for your body or your sexuality?
00:16:53I mean, that's just the business.
00:16:57You kind of make it sound like I'm some kind of, like, victim.
00:16:59No, not victim.
00:17:00Survivor.
00:17:02Okay.
00:17:02That's not really better.
00:17:12Nick, we have so little time.
00:17:14Why don't we not try and fit this into any sort of narrative yet, okay?
00:17:18Why don't we just finish the interview and then we'll find the form later on.
00:17:23Does that sound good?
00:17:25Okay.
00:17:26Okay.
00:17:26Okay.
00:17:30All right.
00:17:32Um, okay.
00:17:34I wanted to ask you about...
00:17:35Do you remember my cousin Jack's wedding?
00:17:37Uh...
00:17:38I was 19.
00:17:39You and I danced all night and Aunt Eileen thought we were both on drugs.
00:17:45Sounds familiar.
00:17:46I had a reputation for dancing up a storm at weddings when I was young.
00:17:53You don't remember anything else that happened at that wedding?
00:17:56I don't remember anything else that happened at that wedding.
00:18:00I don't remember anything else that happened at that wedding.
00:18:02Why?
00:18:05I'm just curious.
00:18:07I was just thinking about victims and...
00:18:13Survivors.
00:18:19Okay.
00:18:20Look, I want to ask you, how, um, how present was consent in those circles?
00:18:28Did anyone force themselves on you?
00:18:30Did you force yourself on anyone?
00:18:31Are you asking me if I ever raped someone?
00:18:34No.
00:18:35No, not necessarily.
00:18:36Just if someone chorused you or you chorused someone.
00:18:39Fucking seriously, Priya?
00:18:41Look, Nick.
00:18:43I think it's important to ride the nerve endings of sex and trauma.
00:18:47Instead of pretending, like, these things don't exist or these things don't affect us.
00:18:50And the process can be uncomfortable at times.
00:18:53It is the process.
00:18:54This is what it looks like.
00:19:01I think I need to eat something.
00:19:05Uh, okay.
00:19:06Do you want me to look into ordering something?
00:19:08Uh, yeah.
00:19:09Fine.
00:19:10I'm going to just see you about in your fridge first.
00:19:51You know, Nick, I've been...
00:19:52Doing this for so many years that I probably have become inured to the pain or maybe I don't realize
00:20:00that everyone else's pain tolerance is not as high as mine.
00:20:03So, I apologize for coming off too strong or I certainly did not mean to re-traumatize you or...
00:20:12That's okay.
00:20:13Sometimes I, like, get in my head and kind of spin out.
00:20:17And I've been through it with Jasper, so I know how annoying it can be.
00:20:21Are you thinking ADHD for treatment?
00:20:23They sure are.
00:20:25I want to help them have more control than I do.
00:20:27And I want to handle his outbursts better than my dad handled mine, but it can be so fucking hard,
00:20:33you know?
00:20:33Like, the blind leading the blind sometimes.
00:20:37I'm sure you're good, Dan.
00:20:39And thank God we all don't become our parents.
00:20:42I don't know, Priya.
00:20:44Sometimes I feel like you're ready to spank me.
00:20:50Why'd you do that?
00:20:52Do what?
00:20:53Flirt.
00:20:53To maneuver out of uncomfortable situations.
00:20:56Oh my God, lighten up, Priya.
00:20:58I was just having fun.
00:21:06So, I've been thinking about titles.
00:21:08Yeah?
00:21:09Me too.
00:21:10Oh yeah, go first.
00:21:12The Nikki of time.
00:21:15Right?
00:21:17Mine is, um, Nikki.
00:21:20Pansexual revolution, parentheses around the R.
00:21:23Oh my God, you and your parentheses.
00:21:24I mean, do I even get a say in this?
00:21:26You know what?
00:21:26Neither of us do.
00:21:27The publisher titles yet.
00:21:28Yeah, but they want, like, a Nikki bio, right?
00:21:30Yeah, yeah.
00:21:31Biography come cultural intervention.
00:21:33Come what?
00:21:34A cultural intervention.
00:21:35Like how you...
00:21:36Like a whatever the fuck that is.
00:21:40You know, sometimes you really do remind me of your dad.
00:21:45That's rich.
00:21:46That's really how to get on my good side, comparing me to Louis.
00:21:50No, no, I'm trying to get on your good side.
00:21:51You should be.
00:21:53Why should I be?
00:21:55Because you pissed me off.
00:21:58So, let me just set the scenario for you.
00:22:00You wanted to do this.
00:22:01We've been talking about it for over six months.
00:22:04I have rejigged my schedule up and down to accommodate you.
00:22:07You have canceled on me on three different weekends.
00:22:10I have drawn up an agreement for you.
00:22:12An agreement that you signed.
00:22:14I didn't read that.
00:22:16Are you kidding?
00:22:19What?
00:22:20You're someone with 15 pages of legal bullshit and you expect me to read it all?
00:22:24I don't have a lawyer on staff anymore, Priya.
00:22:26If you want to talk about exploitation, we're going to have that conversation.
00:22:30Are you accusing me of exploiting you?
00:22:31Yeah.
00:22:32I kind of am.
00:22:49Nick, I am not trying to exploit you.
00:22:52I promise you that.
00:22:53I think this book is really important.
00:22:56I think working together, we can actually deepen the understanding of gender and sexuality
00:23:01and, yes, sexual exploitation by delving into your history.
00:23:04Which is my story.
00:23:05It is your story.
00:23:07Of course it is your story.
00:23:08But if you're not willing to trust me with it, I don't know what the fuck you're doing here.
00:23:13Whoa.
00:23:15Okay.
00:23:17Um.
00:23:20My chicken nuggets are a little cold, so I'm going to heat those up.
00:23:24Let you cool off a little bit.
00:23:26Jesus.
00:23:32You know what?
00:23:34If you want trust here, there's got to be a give and take.
00:23:37Can we not go through this again?
00:23:40All my doctor's secrets are published.
00:23:42Priya, we both know that's not true.
00:23:48Look, if you agree to stop rehashing all your published bullshit,
00:23:54I'll talk about Kristen, and we can put that in the book, okay?
00:24:01Okay.
00:24:02Yeah?
00:24:04Whatever.
00:24:04I'm an open book.
00:24:06Great.
00:24:06Yeah.
00:24:07Cool.
00:24:08Great.
00:24:10And how about, for our afternoon session, we break out some adult beverages?
00:24:16Do you want to get me drunk?
00:24:18Mm.
00:24:19Yeah.
00:24:20So that I can ravage you.
00:24:22I'm admitted a rapist.
00:24:24Oh, don't even say that.
00:24:26Okay.
00:24:27I'm going to get us some drinks, and I'm going to set us up on the patio, okay?
00:24:32Let's make this actually fun.
00:24:34Please?
00:24:45I'm going to let's get out on the patio, I'm going to sweat my nuts off in this thing.
00:25:11You really took your sweet time.
00:25:12I was texting Uncle Aaron.
00:25:14On the toilet.
00:25:16What?
00:25:16No, this is on.
00:25:17Sex on the pot all the time.
00:25:19Gives me something to do.
00:25:21TMI, Nick.
00:25:22You just said that I wasn't giving you enough information, and now my bathroom habits are
00:25:26TMI?
00:25:27What exactly do you want from me, madame?
00:25:32You think I'm adorable.
00:25:34I think you're incorrigible.
00:25:36But I actually think it's going to be good for the book.
00:25:39Like, your truthfulness and brashness is all.
00:25:43I mean, my own work has gotten so theoretical.
00:25:46It just, this feels like something new.
00:25:50Or maybe it's just, I don't know, a return to form.
00:25:52Um, so what I was going to, oh, oh, jinx, you go.
00:25:59I was just going to say that I am just surprised that you are at all reticent to talk about
00:26:03sex, considering the fact that you are the one person I consider to have no hang-ups.
00:26:08I mean, it's sex.
00:26:09Everyone has hang-ups, right?
00:26:11Even a big old slut like me.
00:26:13And I use that term endearingly, by the way.
00:26:15I'm very slut positive.
00:26:17Okay.
00:26:18So how do you feel about your cock?
00:26:20My cock?
00:26:21Mm-hmm.
00:26:22I'm a fan.
00:26:24I'm sure you've seen the pictures online.
00:26:26Me and Reba are tight.
00:26:28We've had some real adventures together.
00:26:29Did you see Reba?
00:26:30Uh-huh.
00:26:31She's the fancy gal in my trousers.
00:26:34All right.
00:26:35So you're all good with Reba.
00:26:37That's so refreshing.
00:26:38So do you have any insecurities, sexually, I mean?
00:26:43I mean, I'm not really the kind of guy who sits around thinking about sexual insecurities,
00:26:46you know?
00:26:47I'm a fucking porn cartoonist.
00:26:49Literally, the only thing I'm good at is drawing cocks and cunts.
00:26:53That's not true.
00:26:55You're good at being a model.
00:26:56Well, thanks.
00:26:57Do you still model?
00:26:58I do, like, commercial work from time to time, and I have some friends who are painters,
00:27:03and I'll sit for them when they need me to, stuff like that.
00:27:06Do you pose nude?
00:27:08Of course.
00:27:09Of course.
00:27:09Yeah.
00:27:10Of course.
00:27:10See, this body confidence just amazes me.
00:27:15It's probably my greatest asset.
00:27:17Okay, so is your greatest asset your body, or is it the willingness to throw it off in public?
00:27:24Both.
00:27:24Uh-huh.
00:27:25I guess.
00:27:26Uh-huh.
00:27:26I mean, it's certainly not my fine wit, and my ability to pontificate on the finer points
00:27:31of Proust.
00:27:35Proust.
00:27:37Proust.
00:27:39Exactly.
00:27:43You don't see yourself as more than just a body when you're moving through the world?
00:27:50Um, no, I'm, yeah, I'm more than just a body.
00:27:54Um, it's hard to explain, because you're, like, the opposite.
00:27:57Like, I mean, you know, you have obviously an amazing body, but you give so much to the world
00:28:04and, like, get its reaction through your thoughts and your writing, and I just, I don't.
00:28:12Like, at this point in my life, my greatest intellectual achievement is, like, giving someone
00:28:17a brief chuckle while they scroll through a porn site looking for pussy pics.
00:28:20You know, but when I get naked, I feel like, I don't know, I can make people be even more
00:28:28confident in their own bodies, you know?
00:28:30And with the posing stuff for my friends, it's, I don't know, I can contribute to great
00:28:35or, I mean, at least in my interesting art.
00:28:39And turn people on.
00:28:42Yeah.
00:28:43Uh-huh.
00:28:44That can be part of it.
00:28:51Yeah, I think we might be opposite.
00:28:55I'd like some of that, you know?
00:28:58My most profound experiences happen internally.
00:29:04Meaning like what?
00:29:05Like the endless cogitating and, you know, it used to be such a blessing with Aaron, because
00:29:11both of us would just perish into our works.
00:29:13Our marriage is so low drama, but.
00:29:18But what?
00:29:20Lately, that's a problem.
00:29:23We're isolated.
00:29:25We're far apart.
00:29:26We're so independent.
00:29:29Just recently I've just been wanting more, you know?
00:29:35Yeah.
00:29:36I completely relate.
00:29:39Yeah, but the difference is you're living fully in the world, right?
00:29:42Like, that's why I want to write this book.
00:29:44You're always living in and engaging with the world.
00:29:47That is magnetic.
00:29:52It's literally the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me.
00:29:56But it's so funny hearing you say that, because it almost sounds or feels like you're talking
00:30:01about someone else.
00:30:03It's like a lot of the time it feels like I'm like, I'm in this dark room watching my
00:30:08body go on these adventures apart from me.
00:30:10It's like, my body is this romance novel hero, but my brain is this bad boy from Peoria.
00:30:23Metaphorical Peoria.
00:30:25Does that make sense?
00:30:27Are you high?
00:30:29I am a little high.
00:30:31Mm-hmm.
00:30:32Yep.
00:30:33Are you too high to have a meaningful conversation?
00:30:36Have you never been high before?
00:30:39It makes me sleepy.
00:30:40Oh, really?
00:30:41It makes me relaxed and deep and thoughtful.
00:30:45Okay.
00:30:46Well, that's good.
00:30:48Just don't try to take advantage of me.
00:30:54Do you know what I really want?
00:30:58I want to be famous again.
00:31:00That was the best part about the whole Nikki thing was, I felt like I was actually good
00:31:05at something and then I got paid for it.
00:31:09I always wondered why you cut that Nikki thing so short and why it just mysteriously disappeared.
00:31:17I want to be rich again, too.
00:31:20Like, really fucking rich.
00:31:24Do you know, my dad and I actually, we have this whole TV pitch planned for when our book
00:31:29becomes a big hit, so.
00:31:33Um, did I tell you that Kristen lost her job?
00:31:37Yeah.
00:31:38We're actually, um, we're pretty severely fucked if I, if I don't start making some money.
00:31:49I mean, I shouldn't be worried about, like, traditional gender roles and shit, but there's
00:31:54something about not being able to provide for my family that's actually so emasculating.
00:32:01I don't know, it almost feels like we're playing house.
00:32:04And she's going to realize that playtime's over and she's going to pack up her toys and
00:32:09go back home.
00:32:10Oh, my God.
00:32:14Yeah.
00:32:16Told you I'd talk about me and Kristen.
00:32:21Let's make this book a fucking biography-com-cultural revolution so I don't have to deal with the
00:32:29other stuff, please.
00:32:29Clan, let's make this book a fucking amar from us and joke, it's not just a word.
00:32:34I don't know.
00:32:34I don't know.
00:32:34morgen, it's not just a one.
00:32:45I don't know.
00:32:48I don't know.
00:32:55I don't know what to do yet.
00:32:57I don't know.
00:32:57You ever say I don't know what to do yet?
00:32:58You always tell me?
00:32:59You are saying nothing.
00:32:59Mike, listen to me, okay?
00:32:59You're talking about me when your Julia listener talks about the 52th universe,
00:32:59and you always tell me, but I'm not sure what to do yet enough right now.
00:33:03I found your scotch.
00:33:05Hmm. Drunk and high. Okay.
00:33:09Just enough to make me an open book, I promise.
00:33:13Back to it.
00:33:14Yep.
00:33:20I've always wondered how Kristen feels about your mad sexuality.
00:33:24Hmm. I mean, she's a lot like me.
00:33:27She's tried everything under the sun except settling down.
00:33:30And how come you wanted to try that?
00:33:33Because I got her pregnant.
00:33:37Yeah, our relationship was always, like, super boundaryless and open and fun.
00:33:42And then, you know, when she was with child and we had to make that decision,
00:33:49we kind of thought that the most transgressive and radical thing that we could do would be the most traditional.
00:33:54See, I always thought you would settle down with men.
00:33:57Why?
00:33:58I don't know.
00:34:00I just assumed...
00:34:02That I was really just gay and that dating other genders was my way of not dealing with that?
00:34:06No, there was a point in time I thought you were transgender.
00:34:10Oh.
00:34:11Mm-hmm.
00:34:11Yeah.
00:34:12Mm-hmm.
00:34:12Yeah. I mean, I get that.
00:34:13But no, that was never really part of my journey.
00:34:16You're probably the only person in my family, though, who would have been okay with that, so thank you.
00:34:21I appreciate that.
00:34:22I always felt that you and I had more in common than any other two members of that family.
00:34:27Absolutely.
00:34:28You don't have an NRA bumper sticker?
00:34:30But still, there's so much, like, there feels like a chasm still, like, stuff that about you I can't...
00:34:38For example, like, I always want to ask you about Pam, the all aspect of your sexuality, you know?
00:34:46I think I hit up against that because of my upbringing, and even though I spend so much time studying
00:34:50it,
00:34:51and especially preparing for this conversation, I guess, do different people have a different pull on you?
00:35:01Women, men, non-binary?
00:35:04Um, I've always been more attracted to the spirit of the person than the gender, you know?
00:35:10I just don't buy it. I'm sorry.
00:35:12What don't you buy?
00:35:13I guess this whole, like, spirit thing, this whole, like, hmmm...
00:35:15Are you saying that it feels too, like, woo-woo?
00:35:19Oh, yeah.
00:35:20Okay, let me try and think of concrete examples. Would that be helpful?
00:35:24Mm-hmm.
00:35:24Okay, when I was in art school, before I went, I thought for sure that I was gay.
00:35:29You know, like, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay.
00:35:33Dicks only. Gay, gay, gay.
00:35:35But then, in my sculpture class, I met this woman named Odyssey.
00:35:39Her name was Odyssey?
00:35:40Well, no, her name was really Beth, but it was art school.
00:35:42So, you know.
00:35:44Um, but, yeah, when I met her, I remember being, like, shocked and a little surprised.
00:35:51And then I was like, who the fuck am I to judge myself, you know?
00:35:55Like, why not just ride the wave?
00:35:58And if I'm attracted to her, because of who she is, I'm gonna just follow that, you know?
00:36:03I mean, surely you've surprised yourself when you've, like, crossed over sexual boundaries or something.
00:36:12Um, I mean, of course I've met women in my life that I am drawn to, but I wouldn't imagine,
00:36:20um, crossing that barrier.
00:36:24So I'm wondering how, you know, coming from where you come from with a dad that's homophobic, how do you
00:36:29cross all those multiple lines that society sets out for you and family set out for you?
00:36:34You just cross it?
00:36:38For me, it feels like Everest for you is just like, oh, crossing the street.
00:36:43Truly.
00:36:44Mm-hmm.
00:36:46Can we get into the mechanics of it?
00:36:48Like, what is sex like with someone who's transgender or non-binary?
00:36:53What's...
00:36:54I feel like even the way that you're thinking about it is gendered.
00:36:59Like, sex doesn't have to be as clinical as you're looking at it.
00:37:04It's not about, like, what goes in where and who has what equipment.
00:37:09Like, you're...
00:37:10What is it about, then?
00:37:11Ah, well, I dated a person named Ray, and they were, they were a femme presenting Dom Top, and they,
00:37:19sex with them was actually, like, a revelation.
00:37:23They had no boundaries at all.
00:37:26Nothing was off limits, and they would tell me exactly what they wanted, and it was incredible in the bedroom.
00:37:32But then, outside of the bedroom, the lines got a little blurred, and they would take that sense of telling
00:37:39me what to do in a very literal manner.
00:37:41So I would find myself, like, having to clean their toilet.
00:37:44Or, like, one time when they said that I had to go out and get them a milkshake, even when
00:37:49I had the flu, I had, like, a 103-degree fever.
00:37:52And I was there, and I ordered the wrong milkshake flavor, and when I brought it back, they lost their
00:37:57shit.
00:37:57So actually, maybe that's a terrible example.
00:37:59Do you perceive yourself as a masochist?
00:38:02Um, I mean, yeah, I definitely have played the sub multiple times, like, pantyhose.
00:38:09Emotional? Emotional masochist?
00:38:10Uh, I don't really know what that means, but clearly you think I am that.
00:38:16I think we have that in common.
00:38:18I don't know the here masochist, though, are you?
00:38:22You're giving me, like, full Dom energy today.
00:38:25An emotional masochist is someone who will get into situations and relationships where they will suffer.
00:38:32It's very, it's common among, um, survivors of abuse.
00:38:36I feel like you use that as an excuse a lot.
00:38:42Maybe people just are who they are.
00:38:44And who are you, then?
00:38:45Who am I?
00:38:46I am a guy who doesn't have the same limits that other people place on themselves.
00:38:56Or maybe the fact that you were violated at such a young age provided you a learned experience
00:39:03where people could trespass over your boundaries and do what they wanted with your body.
00:39:10Well, well, careful.
00:39:12Sorry.
00:39:13Whatever.
00:39:14I mean, models need people to do stuff with their bodies and they need to be comfortable with it.
00:39:20So maybe my trauma ended up being incredibly beneficial to my career.
00:39:24Have you ever thought about that?
00:39:30I mean, I, my hair keeps going back to where the hell was your dad and all this?
00:39:34Where, where, was he protecting?
00:39:36What, where was Lewis?
00:39:38Lewis was more interested in the, like, fucking models and, like, doing coke at parties and that kind of stuff.
00:39:43Which was actually kind of this, like, weird, fucked up bonding thing for us for a while.
00:39:48Because he never really seemed to like me much before then.
00:39:51Um, yeah, it ended up being ultimately incredibly toxic.
00:39:55And, uh, my mom really got the shit end on that stick.
00:39:59She doesn't really like talking about the Nikki era.
00:40:02I mean, I get it.
00:40:03I basically tore the family apart, so.
00:40:06I think that blame falls squarely on your dad's shoulders.
00:40:09No.
00:40:10I mean, if I hadn't gotten famous, then it wouldn't have.
00:40:15Manifested the way it did for her.
00:40:16And yet, here you are.
00:40:18Wanting to get famous again.
00:40:20Yeah.
00:40:21Hmm.
00:40:22Kind of addictive, isn't it?
00:40:25So I didn't want to push before.
00:40:30But I do want to know about the pitch.
00:40:33No.
00:40:34No.
00:40:35Come on.
00:40:36No, you'll just shit on it.
00:40:37I won't shit on it.
00:40:37And I don't really promise.
00:40:40Mm-hmm.
00:40:41Okay?
00:40:42Mm-hmm.
00:40:42The idea is that I would have guests, um, come on and they would tell me their dirty sex secrets.
00:40:49And then I would animate those sex secrets.
00:40:51And it would be, like, kind of a combo of reality TV and edgy porn.
00:41:06The fact that I hate it so much means it will be a success.
00:41:09So rude.
00:41:10You want to be famous again, too.
00:41:12I can tell.
00:41:14Not famous, but just red.
00:41:18I miss having an impact on the world.
00:41:21It's so noble.
00:41:23It doesn't have to be about the world.
00:41:34What?
00:41:36What was that?
00:41:37Oh, no one.
00:41:38You're sorry?
00:41:38Yeah.
00:41:39You just made a really weird face.
00:41:40You good?
00:41:41I made a weird face.
00:41:42You almost knocked your wine glass over.
00:41:44How are you doing?
00:41:45Huh?
00:41:46How many glasses of wine have you had, drunkie?
00:41:50It's okay.
00:41:51You're cute when you're tipsy.
00:41:53Just a little tipsy.
00:41:54Mm-hmm.
00:41:54I've never been drunk before.
00:41:58Mm-hmm.
00:41:59If you're drunk, maybe you're in the right headspace to tell me about your masochism.
00:42:05Emotional masochism.
00:42:06Come on.
00:42:07Come on.
00:42:08You're telling me you've never looked at BDSM porn?
00:42:10Sure, but for work, it's strictly professional interest.
00:42:19Mm-hmm.
00:42:21So Uncle Aaron has never helped you explore this strictly professional interest?
00:42:26So you've never explored it, then?
00:42:36Maybe you have, but just not with Aaron.
00:42:45Do you keep secrets from Kristen?
00:42:49Maybe.
00:42:56Such as?
00:42:58Um, let's just say that cartoon porn pays significantly less than Kristen thinks it does.
00:43:08Do you have another source of income?
00:43:10Maybe.
00:43:11It's insolacious.
00:43:12Maybe.
00:43:14And now we both know enough about each other to make both of our marriages incredibly uncomfortable.
00:43:23So.
00:43:25So.
00:43:32By the way, all that, like, the BDSM stuff, kind of mainstream now.
00:43:39Yeah?
00:43:39Yeah, it's Fifty Shades of Vanilla.
00:43:41You don't have to be embarrassed.
00:43:42Oh, well, that's good.
00:43:43It's fun.
00:43:47Yeah, I need to say goodnight to my kids before it gets too late.
00:43:50Yeah.
00:43:50Maybe do a FaceTime with great Aunt Priya?
00:43:52Yeah.
00:43:53Come on.
00:43:54Nope.
00:43:55Great Aunt Priya is tipsy.
00:43:58I like FaceTiming when I'm tipsy.
00:44:01Oh.
00:44:01I look like Kathy Bates playing Wolverine.
00:44:06Rough.
00:44:08Rough.
00:44:20Okay.
00:44:20All right.
00:44:21I gotta go.
00:44:22Tell your mom I said goodnight, okay, bud?
00:44:24Bye.
00:44:24All right.
00:44:24Bye.
00:44:25Aw.
00:44:26I remember when Laurel was that age.
00:44:29She's running wild already.
00:44:31Yeah.
00:44:32Jasper is so high energy that if I'm not watching him every minute, he will actually run right
00:44:38under a moving truck.
00:44:39If Jocelyn doesn't bulldoze him herself, she is such a bossy little thing.
00:44:45What?
00:44:48It's nothing.
00:44:49My mom used to call me bossy.
00:44:50It's just a trigger.
00:44:50That's all.
00:44:51Oh.
00:44:51That's all.
00:44:51Sorry.
00:44:52No, please.
00:44:53No.
00:44:53She'd be so worried about me doing anything to upset my dad.
00:44:57She had no idea he was getting off on it.
00:44:59She's just so intent on making everything my fault.
00:45:03God.
00:45:04So sorry.
00:45:05I hope I don't make Jocelyn feel that way.
00:45:08I love that she has a mind of her own.
00:45:10It can be intimidating for boys.
00:45:12I don't know.
00:45:14It's the reason why a lot of boys kind of like stayed away from...
00:45:17Well, you know what?
00:45:18Could have been the acne and the bad glasses.
00:45:20I do not remember acne nor bad glasses.
00:45:22I mean, they were gone by the time I married into your family.
00:45:25Yeah.
00:45:26They definitely were.
00:45:27What I remember most on that first trip when you came to our house was my mom talking about
00:45:31how gorgeous you are.
00:45:32No mention of acne or glasses.
00:45:35And I remember my dad repeatedly saying that he hoped he didn't have to talk to you about
00:45:39your sex book.
00:45:40Oops.
00:45:42On that same trip, do you remember you were sitting outside painting your toenails?
00:45:47And I came out and I must have been like staring so intently because you offered to paint mine
00:45:51too.
00:45:51Maybe like 14 or something.
00:45:53Younger, I think.
00:45:55There was something about that trip that left a huge, like, pretty big impact on me, I guess,
00:46:01actually, because you talked to me like I was an adult, which just hadn't really happened
00:46:06in my family before.
00:46:07And you kind of made me feel like I was less, like, wrong.
00:46:10Not to get too woo-woo about it, but.
00:46:15Uh-huh.
00:46:15I wish I saw you more back then.
00:46:16I wish I saw you more.
00:46:17I don't think I saw you again until that wedding.
00:46:21Jack's wedding.
00:46:22When we danced the night away.
00:46:26Keep bringing that up.
00:46:28That wedding was a total disaster.
00:46:30I wish I hadn't gone.
00:46:32That time was such a mess.
00:46:34My second book had just come out.
00:46:36It hadn't been received as well as patriarchy had.
00:46:40Aaron was in London again on a research gig.
00:46:43But Jack was getting married to my cousin, Rachel.
00:46:46Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:46:47Rachel was your cousin?
00:46:48She was my cousin.
00:46:49Did you not know that?
00:46:50I mean, I guess I must have.
00:46:51Did you not notice my father was there?
00:46:53Did you not meet him there?
00:46:54I did.
00:46:55I mean, he was old, but he wasn't seen out yet.
00:46:58I feel terrifying.
00:47:01Is that why you got so drunk?
00:47:02Mm.
00:47:04The whole night is one big blur.
00:47:07Come on.
00:47:09You do remember dancing with me, right?
00:47:11Oh, I do remember thinking you were really sweet and beautiful and so fun.
00:47:20Do you remember dropping your purse at the wedding?
00:47:30The purse with your room key in it?
00:47:36You know, I used the key.
00:47:45You know?
00:47:48I mean, I was 19, and I just, like, my hot aunt had been flirting with me, and I guess
00:47:56I, uh, I wanted to see if, um, um, but I saw...
00:48:16I knew you were telling him.
00:48:16Yeah, it was a thing.
00:48:23He said, oh, yeah.
00:48:23He said, oh, yeah.
00:48:23He said, oh, yeah.
00:48:24That was funny, but he said, oh, yeah.
00:48:24He said, oh.
00:48:24He said, oh, yeah.
00:48:25He said, oh.
00:48:34I woke up.
00:48:37Wow, okay.
00:48:41You saw that.
00:48:49I...
00:48:50I didn't...
00:48:52I didn't see much.
00:48:58I...
00:48:59I just saw you on the bed
00:49:01and your dad
00:49:08I got out of there.
00:49:10Just dropped your purse and ran away.
00:49:20Nick, it wasn't sex.
00:49:22Okay?
00:49:23I want you to know that it was never a sex.
00:49:26Okay.
00:49:28So it wasn't sexual at all, then?
00:49:34I swear I'm not judging you, Priya.
00:49:39But can I ask,
00:49:43did that just keep going from when you were little?
00:49:46No.
00:49:48No.
00:49:50Almost never.
00:49:51Almost?
00:49:55Fuck, Nick.
00:49:58I never wanted you to see that.
00:50:00I never wanted anyone to see that.
00:50:03I mean, I know it's not easy,
00:50:04but I actually...
00:50:05I kind of like talking to you about this.
00:50:09It makes me feel like you trust me.
00:50:13And that I can trust you, too.
00:50:27You know,
00:50:30I've never really talked to anyone
00:50:38about what you saw.
00:50:43I've never written about it
00:50:44in any of my books.
00:50:46I mean, I've written about
00:50:47the hitting and the pleasure
00:50:50it seemed to give him,
00:50:52but I could never admit
00:50:55just how it connected fear
00:50:57and pleasure
00:50:58for me.
00:51:05Sometimes after he'd hit me,
00:51:07I'd go hide out and...
00:51:11Masturbate.
00:51:14I thought it was totally normal.
00:51:18You know, we just...
00:51:19We're kids.
00:51:19We just think everything's so normal.
00:51:21And as I grew up,
00:51:22I just...
00:51:23I realized it wasn't normal
00:51:25and what was happening was bad
00:51:27and what he was doing was bad
00:51:28and what I was doing was bad,
00:51:31but...
00:51:33No.
00:51:34Yeah, it was bad.
00:51:37I did it anyway.
00:51:38It just felt like shit.
00:51:39I felt dirty.
00:51:40I felt sick.
00:51:42I felt like a pervert.
00:51:45No, you weren't doing anything wrong.
00:51:48You were just a kid, you know?
00:51:51I mean, I think about...
00:51:53my kids and they...
00:51:55they're just built to love,
00:51:57you know?
00:51:57They just...
00:51:58they're meant to trust
00:52:00and...
00:52:02you...
00:52:02you didn't do anything wrong.
00:52:04Your dad is the fucked up one.
00:52:06You know that, right?
00:52:08And yet you don't know it.
00:52:12It's exhausting.
00:52:15Seriously.
00:52:20So, is that part of sex for you now?
00:52:23Getting spanked?
00:52:26I hate that word.
00:52:29What word do you prefer?
00:52:31Like whipped?
00:52:34Hit.
00:52:37I'm the one who gets hit.
00:52:40Do you ever think of just telling Aaron
00:52:41what it is that you like?
00:52:45Okay, like is not the word I'd use.
00:52:49It's, um...
00:52:50I don't know.
00:52:50I don't know what it is.
00:52:51It's maybe...
00:52:55satisfying?
00:52:56I don't know.
00:52:58Yeah.
00:53:01Aaron would never understand.
00:53:07He's such a good guy, you know?
00:53:09He'd never understand.
00:53:11He'd think he did something wrong.
00:53:12He'd...
00:53:13I don't know.
00:53:16He'd never forgive me.
00:53:20I mean, my readers wouldn't understand either.
00:53:22I go around presenting myself as a joke.
00:53:25Goddamn feminist role model.
00:53:27Hey.
00:53:28This is a feminist can't enjoy it.
00:53:31It gets spankin' once in a while.
00:53:32Oh, I've done enough reading to know
00:53:34that there's a version of hitting
00:53:35that is about female consent
00:53:37and female empowerment
00:53:38that's not connected to trauma and abuse,
00:53:40but that's not what I am up to.
00:53:45Mine is deeply rooted in...
00:53:49...the desires of men.
00:53:51It is deeply rooted in...
00:53:57...my fractures.
00:54:01God.
00:54:03It must be really...
00:54:05...hard to be able to do that.
00:54:08Do what?
00:54:10Analyze yourself.
00:54:12Diagnose yourself.
00:54:15It's my job.
00:54:17Yeah, but I mean...
00:54:19...does it leave you any room for...
00:54:24...pleasure, or...
00:54:25...or...
00:54:29...or...
00:54:33...no, I guess not.
00:54:36It's a shame.
00:54:40...I think you deserve that.
00:54:47Tell me about the text you got.
00:54:55So, you know how...
00:54:56...Lewis was my manager.
00:55:03He's kind of...
00:55:06...like my pimp, too.
00:55:09I, uh...
00:55:11...I make most of my money these days
00:55:13as, like, an online escort...
00:55:16...for grown-up fans of Nicki.
00:55:20People your dad finds?
00:55:23He kept a list over the years...
00:55:24...of Nicki's fan club...
00:55:26...and, um...
00:55:27...he sent them little messages...
00:55:30...and...
00:55:31...chat with Nicki.
00:55:33You know, and then...
00:55:34...people would...
00:55:35...they'd ask for more...
00:55:37...and they'd offer to pay more.
00:55:43So...
00:55:45And Kristen...
00:55:47...doesn't know?
00:55:48Mm-hmm.
00:55:48And Kristen...
00:55:48...it's just online.
00:55:51Online can be real, too.
00:55:54It's true.
00:55:59So when Aaron is away, do you ever...
00:56:03...find anyone to...
00:56:05...to hit you for real?
00:56:18Mm-hmm.
00:56:23Is that something you want?
00:56:37I gotta go to sleep.
00:56:40Let's pick it up in the morning, okay?
00:56:41Okay?
00:56:42Mm-hmm.
00:57:08Ooh!
00:57:10Mm...
00:57:17Do you know what this is like, this is like the morning after a one night stand and you
00:57:24wake up next to someone and you're like wait what just happened, who are you?
00:57:27I don't know how you got me to talk so much or drink so much.
00:57:33Come on, you had three glasses of wine.
00:57:40What is it?
00:57:42It's the home. Busy avoiding them.
00:57:45Is he okay?
00:57:46Yeah, he's okay. He's totally confused, deeply senile. He keeps asking about me, which is why they're probably calling so
00:57:53much.
00:57:54When was the last time you saw him?
00:57:56Um, six months ago.
00:58:00I had gone over to tell him that I was trying to forgive him.
00:58:05And he looked at me like he had no idea who the fuck I was.
00:58:10But I could tell my word struck some kind of chord because he started shouting at me, telling me to
00:58:15get out of his sight.
00:58:17Nurse had to lead me out and I haven't been back since.
00:58:22Thanks.
00:58:25You know, the fact that I can stay away this long when I know that he's dying in there makes
00:58:30me feel like a bit of a sociopath.
00:58:32I had all these people, all these survivors, tell me how they cut off ties with their abusers after reading
00:58:40my book.
00:58:40And here I am just shelling out for this high-end place.
00:58:45I totally get it.
00:58:46Like, my brain is obviously very aware of all the fucked up stuff Lewis has done.
00:58:49But at the same time, if he hadn't found this alternate source of income, I would be so broke right
00:58:56now.
00:58:58Voila.
00:58:59Very nice. Very nice.
00:59:02Let me do yours.
00:59:03Mm-mm.
00:59:03Come on. We do nails all the time with the kids.
00:59:06Come on.
00:59:17I'm really fascinated by all these online encounters of yours.
00:59:20Mm-mm.
00:59:22Do you like your clients? How do you feel about them?
00:59:26I, uh, I like a lot of them.
00:59:31Some of them, they're like the highlight of my day.
00:59:34The way that they, I don't know, gaze at me.
00:59:38For me, it makes me feel interesting and important.
00:59:44Like you.
00:59:47Have I been gazing at you?
00:59:53I've been gazing back, in case you hadn't noticed.
01:00:00I see what you're doing.
01:00:03What am I doing?
01:00:05You're talking to me and looking at me like I'm one of them.
01:00:09One of those online Nicki fans of yours.
01:00:13You aren't a Nicki fan?
01:00:18And...
01:00:24Can I ask you a question?
01:00:28At that wedding, you were coming on to me, right?
01:00:32That was not just dancing.
01:00:36And this weekend.
01:00:39All these little moments, like...
01:00:42When you unbuttoned your blouse when you thought I wasn't looking.
01:01:01hold on.
01:01:04Fuck it, www. Nathan.
01:01:05What a ì—….
01:01:09Hey.
01:01:11Hello, everybody.
01:01:12Hey, hey.
01:01:29Why'd you do that?
01:01:31Why did I do what?
01:01:33Act all ashamed like I was a goddamn porn site or something.
01:01:35Because my husband called?
01:01:39Look, Nick.
01:01:41All we were doing, what we were starting to do,
01:01:43what you were taking us was not okay.
01:01:44Wait, where I was taking us?
01:01:45So you had nothing to do with it?
01:01:46I, I can just say...
01:01:48Okay, I'm gonna own it.
01:01:49If I had wanted something to happen in there,
01:01:51or last night,
01:01:52I don't think it would be anything to be ashamed of.
01:01:56You have to be married.
01:01:57I mean, at least I am.
01:01:58I'm married too.
01:01:59I'm not saying that it would have been right.
01:02:00I'm just saying that there's no sense in guilting yourself
01:02:03for the wanting part of it, okay?
01:02:05I feel like you work so hard to resist all your impulses, Priya.
01:02:07Can you just stop this?
01:02:09Stop what?
01:02:09Can you just stop making everything okay?
01:02:11Can we just stop collapsing every boundary known to mankind?
01:02:14Okay, we all just, we need, we need structure,
01:02:16so there's no chaos.
01:02:17We need to have some rules to live by, okay?
01:02:18Oh, I hope you're so hard on yourself.
01:02:20So fucking easy on yourself.
01:02:33Nick, if Aaron was ever to...
01:02:37find out about whatever that was.
01:02:42I would never.
01:02:46Look, I don't want to blow up your life,
01:02:49but is that honestly your life?
01:02:52Your marriage?
01:02:53You preach total honesty,
01:02:54but you won't even talk for real to your husband.
01:02:56I think in every marriage,
01:02:58there are things that are left unsaid.
01:02:59Things like a whole secret BDSM life?
01:03:01That is not my life.
01:03:03That is not my life.
01:03:05Isn't it?
01:03:05No.
01:03:05Isn't that part of everyone's life,
01:03:07the secret shit?
01:03:08Because you're so honest with your secret shit?
01:03:11See, you don't get it, Nick.
01:03:14Aaron is the one thing
01:03:16that keeps me in the world.
01:03:18And I can't risk losing him.
01:03:20I can't risk losing Kristen either.
01:03:23I'm just saying you need to own your shit.
01:03:25Okay, fine.
01:03:25Do you want me to confess?
01:03:26Yes.
01:03:26What do you want me to confess?
01:03:27What do you want me to confess?
01:03:29That I'm not totally honest with what I want?
01:03:31Sure, that something just happened,
01:03:32something fucked up just happened between us
01:03:34and it was sexual?
01:03:34Yes, like all my other encounters?
01:03:36Sure, is that what you want?
01:03:37That I'm not faithful to Aaron?
01:03:38You happy?
01:03:38Maybe you're faithful to yourself.
01:03:40Your real self, kind of.
01:03:41Oh.
01:03:51I can't.
01:03:56I can't have that.
01:03:59Be my real self.
01:04:02Like, do you understand that?
01:04:04That part of me is too tainted.
01:04:07It is just mixed up with my dad.
01:04:10That part of myself is too broken.
01:04:12I know what you're saying.
01:04:13I know what you're trying to get me to do.
01:04:14But I can't have that.
01:04:20You know what?
01:04:21We've spent way too much time off the record.
01:04:23We've got to get back.
01:04:24I don't even know if we have anything here.
01:04:26I've got to find out if we have anything here.
01:04:28And you have to leave soon.
01:04:29We have a timeline.
01:04:31Unbelievable.
01:04:32Why don't we get back to your babysitters
01:04:35and your baths?
01:04:40Um, yeah.
01:04:42Let's.
01:04:43Do you?
01:04:44I, I, I, what?
01:04:45I don't know.
01:04:46Do you, do you, um, how long do you go on for the abuse?
01:04:56I don't know.
01:04:56Eventually they moved away.
01:04:57I think I was like six or seven.
01:05:02Did you ever see them again?
01:05:05As an adult?
01:05:06I mean.
01:05:06Yeah, actually.
01:05:07Once I saw Mrs. Ellison, Aunt Carol, as she had me call her, um, it was at this big blowout
01:05:15party that my dad threw for Nikki.
01:05:17It was, you know, after the divorce, my agent, the real agent that I had dropped me because
01:05:22he kept showing up late and fucking up big gigs.
01:05:24Why did you do that?
01:05:26Mm, because I, um, I really started to believe my own importance in the world, which turns
01:05:31out I'd vastly overestimate it.
01:05:34It's just, just before you quit?
01:05:36Yeah.
01:05:38You know what?
01:05:39Fuck it.
01:05:41I've never really told anyone not the whole thing, but yeah.
01:05:44I can turn it off.
01:05:45Record it.
01:05:46This is what you want, right?
01:05:48Um, okay.
01:05:50Yeah, I was at this, uh, this big blowout party that my dad threw for Nikki and I see
01:05:57Aunt Carol come in and I, I see that she's kind of scared of me and I, I start like
01:06:05kind
01:06:06of getting off on her being scared and I start flirting with her pretty seriously.
01:06:10I, I probably would have slapped with the old bag if my dad hadn't seen what was going
01:06:14on and, and, and come over and steered me away from her and pawned me off on the Nikki fan
01:06:23club.
01:06:23Um, and I swear I never did this ever, ever, but that night I found myself hitting on this
01:06:34kid.
01:06:35And I, I mean, he wasn't a child by any means, but he was definitely, he was, he was not
01:06:43old
01:06:43enough for me to be flirting with.
01:06:45And, and I remember staring at these bushes in the backyard and, um, um, back when I was
01:06:54a kid, there was this little neighbor girl who was younger than me, like six and one time
01:07:01I, I let her into those bushes and we played doctor, but after she pulled down her pants,
01:07:09she got really scared.
01:07:10She just ran away and never came back.
01:07:14So I was at the party and this kid was flirting with me and I, I remember looking at those
01:07:20bushes
01:07:20and, did you take him there?
01:07:22No, no, no, no.
01:07:23I, I almost did, but I, I kind of, I like staggered over to them and I fell into them.
01:07:36And I, I remember laying there and looking up at those same fucking bushes that I had made
01:07:44that girl take her pants off and I just, I knew that I had, I had to get away or,
01:07:55or I was,
01:07:57I was going to turn into one of them, like a, a monster.
01:08:09And so I, I, I got myself a cab and I got to the airport and I flew away.
01:08:16Where'd you go?
01:08:18I went to Kristen's.
01:08:21She got it more than anyone else, you know, just needing to take a break from that whole
01:08:27world.
01:08:31Um, I mean, I, I, I think, like, I, I really fucking think that I, I saved my own life
01:08:40that night.
01:08:43And I, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have regrets or made me think that my dad was
01:08:51right.
01:08:54That I blew it.
01:08:55Oh.
01:09:16Nick.
01:09:18Yeah.
01:09:24At the wedding, I danced with you like that because I wanted him to punish me.
01:09:41When, when I was writing about him, I was remembering all the pain.
01:09:44And I couldn't really help but remember all the rest.
01:09:46And I wanted my second book to be about that, about all the secrets, shit that he smeared
01:09:54on me.
01:09:56But I, uh, I just lost my nerve.
01:10:01And I, you know, it showed.
01:10:05People were just disappointed at the shit that I wrote.
01:10:11And so, at the wedding, I decided to throw myself back into the lion's den.
01:10:17And I thought if I could just experience it as an adult,
01:10:28and maybe I could understand it, finally.
01:10:32But it made things so much worse.
01:10:38Because I had always felt, uh, complicit.
01:10:43But I could justify it and, and, and, and say that I was a kid or a teenager, but I
01:10:50was an adult.
01:11:00And I am trying to reconcile that fact.
01:11:09And I keep failing.
01:11:18So there you have it.
01:11:20It's my secretest of secret shit.
01:11:37Uh, maybe, maybe we could go take a walk or something.
01:11:43I, um, I'm feeling a little fried from the, writing the nerve endings or whatever.
01:11:51I, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go pee.
01:11:55And then we can go get some fresh, non-traumatized air.
01:12:01Okay.
01:12:19I think your phone is ringing.
01:12:25It's Kristen.
01:12:26Do you want me to get it?
01:12:27No, no, I'll be right down.
01:12:55All right.
01:13:05I danced with you like that, because I wanted him to punish me.
01:13:12When I was writing about him, I was remembering all the pain.
01:13:15I couldn't really help but remember all the rest, and I wanted my second book to be about
01:13:22that, about all the secrets and shit that he smeared on me.
01:13:27But I, uh, I just lost my nerve, and I, you know, I'd chill.
01:13:36Look.
01:13:37I've been so careful. I've been so careful not to record you when you don't want to be recorded.
01:13:45I mean, I wasn't going to do anything with it.
01:13:48What was this for?
01:13:49I mean, I was going to maybe use it for the show as, like, um,
01:13:56like a proof of concept sort of thing, you know, only if you liked it.
01:14:02Which obviously you don't, so I, uh...
01:14:05You were going to use this as a proof of concept?
01:14:07Um, you know, I, I, uh, I thought I didn't, I didn't think that...
01:14:13And, and all that stuff. All that stuff. What was that? The, the, the seducing me and the,
01:14:19and the manipulating me? Was that...
01:14:22No, I'm, it might have started out that way, but then, I mean, obviously something real happened.
01:14:28It, I came into it thinking it would be good practice, but then I thought that...
01:14:32You were seducing me for practice?
01:14:33I mean, at first, but then, uh, look...
01:14:35This is such a violation, Nick! Get away!
01:14:45Do you have any idea what you just did?
01:14:49I, um...
01:14:51I, I just, I, I didn't think there was any harm in recording it.
01:14:55No, why would you? You're a cis white man.
01:14:56No accountability for jack shit. Why would you?
01:14:58It's just that you have all the cards here.
01:15:00What cards?
01:15:01You have, you have this.
01:15:02That, that is reference audio.
01:15:05That you gave me consent for.
01:15:07Because we're writing a book together, as partners.
01:15:10Or we were writing a book together.
01:15:11We still are. You can't just quit like that.
01:15:13Fuck!
01:15:14Okay.
01:15:22You wouldn't know a boundary if it hit you in the fucking face.
01:15:26Okay.
01:15:28Okay. We're, we're, we're done here.
01:15:30No, Priya, please.
01:15:31This is what we're going to do.
01:15:32We are going to unlock this phone, and we are going to delete this video.
01:15:37I don't, I don't think I need to...
01:15:39Nick, listen to me.
01:15:39Will you please unlock this phone?
01:15:50I'm sorry.
01:15:51Okay.
01:16:00I'm sorry.
01:16:02I'm sorry.
01:16:02I'm sorry.
01:16:12I'm sorry.
01:16:15I'm sorry.
01:16:17I'm sorry.
01:16:18I'm sorry.
01:16:18I'm sorry.
01:16:19I'm sorry.
01:16:20I'm sorry.
01:16:21I'm sorry.
01:16:21I'm sorry.
01:16:21I'm sorry.
01:16:21I'm sorry.
01:16:23I'm sorry.
01:16:24I'm sorry.
01:16:50Let's see.
01:16:55Hello?
01:16:58Yeah, it is Priya.
01:16:59I know you've been trying to reach me, but I actually don't want to...
01:17:03Oh, um, oh, okay.
01:17:07Sounds good. That is a good option.
01:17:10Um, yeah, I think we should go ahead and do that.
01:17:14Next, thank you. That'd be great.
01:17:16Okay, thank you so much.
01:17:18Okay, bye.
01:17:19Is that the home?
01:17:22It turns out there is a single room that's available waiting most as long, so...
01:17:28We might as well be comfortable while I'm not visiting him.
01:17:32I mean, he doesn't deserve it, but...
01:17:35Yeah, I guess let him be comfortable.
01:17:38Oh, Nick, who are we to say who deserves what?
01:17:47Listen, I feel like you've spent all weekend, like, trying to find the worst shit that happened to me so
01:17:54that you can link it to my modeling career and my sex life, like you're trying to find the source
01:17:58of my defect, but...
01:18:01I don't know, I don't really think that I'm defective.
01:18:06And for what it's worth, I don't really think that you're defective either.
01:18:11I just...
01:18:13I hope you can detach that from what happened with your dad.
01:18:18Cause...
01:18:19Cause...
01:18:19I mean...
01:18:20You gotta allow yourself pleasure.
01:18:22No matter what happened before.
01:18:33Look...
01:18:34I know that I've...
01:18:36I've fucked this whole thing up.
01:18:38And I'm...
01:18:39I'm really hugely...
01:18:42Ridiculously sorry.
01:18:49But...
01:18:51I'm not really sorry about the other stuff.
01:18:55I hope you aren't either.
01:19:01I, uh...
01:19:02Even if our book doesn't happen, which I think would be a real shame, that other book that you keep
01:19:06not writing, the secretest of the secret shit one, I think that would be a great book.
01:19:19Thank you, Nick.
01:19:21I'd buy it.
01:19:22Yes, but would you read it?
01:19:26Can't promise you I'm not.
01:19:30I don't know.
01:19:32It's kind of...
01:19:34Freeing to see that you have your own shit.
01:19:37Just like everybody does.
01:19:39Can you find that free?
01:19:42I find it depressing.
01:19:45You look kinda depressed.
01:19:46Yeah.
01:19:47My life's a fucking mess.
01:19:51So your life's a mess.
01:19:53So what?
01:19:56Maybe it's not about going from being broken to being fixed.
01:20:03Maybe it's about, like, going from broken to being okay with being broken.
01:20:18Pretty astute for a bad boy from Peoria.
01:20:22Metaphorical Peoria.
01:20:28You think I'm all talked out?
01:20:29I do.
01:20:32You know what?
01:20:34I've got another idea.
01:20:35Oh, Nick, no.
01:20:37I'm sorry.
01:20:37Whatever you're thinking, I don't.
01:20:38I'm not thinking at all.
01:20:39Actually, I think fuck thinking.
01:20:40I think fuck thinking.
01:20:42Fuck talking.
01:20:43Come on.
01:20:45Come on.
01:20:46Oh, no.
01:20:47You're the one who wants to live more in your body.
01:20:51Come on, Peoria.
01:20:52Remember how free you used to feel on the dance floor?
01:20:57Missing up.
01:21:04Come on, Peoria.
01:21:06Just let go.
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