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All in with Chris Hayes - Season 14 - Episode 08
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00:00on all land. If we don't go in, Russia's going to go in and China's going to go in.
00:05A Greenland showdown for our imperial president. I can't rely on Denmark being able to
00:12fend themselves off. They added a second dog sled. That's not going to do the trick.
00:17Tonight, the new turn in Trump's latest conquest and exclusive reporting from Greenland.
00:22Resistance is strong. You can maybe buy a president in the United States,
00:26but you cannot buy the people of Greenland. Then, as the Trump siege in Minnesota continues,
00:32the new push to rain in ICE. To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity in the conduct of your
00:39duties. Plus, forceful pushback from a growing list of Democrats targeted by Jeanine Pirah.
00:46Truth doesn't matter. Facts don't matter. And anyone who disagrees with him becomes an enemy.
00:52And a day after facing that pedophile protector heckle,
00:56whatever happened to the Epstein files anyway? All In starts right now.
01:05Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes. Donald Trump has led our country into another
01:09geopolitical crisis entirely of his own making. Starting from nothing, for no reason.
01:16His explicit threats of military action against Greenland entered a new phase today,
01:20with the announcement that Denmark is now effectively wargaming against a U.S. invasion.
01:27Today, Denmark, which controls Greenland, did what was once unthinkable, protectively moving
01:31military assets onto the island. In the event that Trump does to Greenland what Hitler did to
01:36Czechoslovakia and Austria when he invaded and annexed them in 1938. That's the scenario that
01:43people around the world, governments around the world, particularly in Europe, are wargaming.
01:47Will the U.S. do the kind of thing that Hitler did in 1938? Just go into a territory, seize
01:53it,
01:53and say it's ours? And so you have Germany and Sweden sending military forces. France now plans
01:59to send troops as well. The United Kingdom is considering contributing forces, while Norway says
02:04it stands in solidarity with Greenland. This morning, amid all the chaos, top diplomats from both
02:09Denmark and Greenland met with Vice President J.D. Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio at the
02:14White House. The response to the press did not inspire much confidence about the state of our
02:19diplomatic relations. Today, we came here following a number of, how should I put it, remarkable public
02:30comments on Greenland and Arctic security. The president has made his view clear, and we have
02:38a different position. For us, ideas that would not respect territorial integrity of the Kingdom of
02:46Denmark and the right of self-determination of the Greenlandic people are, of course, totally
02:52unacceptable. Now, the two sides said they would create a working group moving forward, but thus far,
02:58Donald Trump's preferred course of action seems to be an invasion. I mean, notably, this was not one of
03:03those open press Oval Office meetings where Trump throws a temper tantrum and J.D. Vance sternly
03:08lectures a sitting world leader as a foreign dignitary sits next to him awkwardly. But the
03:13president still made his presence felt with a social media post this morning where he claimed that
03:17anything short of U.S. control of Greenland is unacceptable. Meanwhile, the White House posted this
03:23seemingly AI-generated meme captioned, which way Greenland manned, which is, by the way, a not-so-subtle
03:29reference to a notorious white supremacist book called Which Way, Western Man, which, among other
03:34things, defends Hitler. Secretary of Interior Doug Burgum posted a graphic depicting Greenland as part of
03:40the United States. I think they think this is a joke, or they don't. I don't know. But this is
03:45how the
03:45administration is talking about a key strategic ally and also 60,000 actual human beings living in the
03:5121st century who have a right to self-determination, as we all do. And as a result, Greenland's prime
03:57minister was forced to make his allegiances explicit, telling reporters, quote, if we have to choose between
04:03the U.S.A. and Denmark here and now, we choose Denmark. We choose NATO, the Kingdom of Denmark, and
04:07the EU.
04:08In response, Trump offered more thuggish threats.
04:12On Greenland, sir, the premier of Greenland said today, we prefer to stay with Denmark. Do you see that as
04:19the final word?
04:20The premier of Greenland. Well, that's their problem. That's their problem. I disagree with
04:28them. I don't know who he is. Don't know anything about him. But that's going to be a big problem
04:33for
04:34him. We're really struggling, all of us in the media right now, and I'll even confess myself,
04:39to accurately articulate and name how insane, how ugly, how disgusting and deranged this whole thing is.
04:50And to be clear, it is as unhinged as it seems. First of all, we have no claim over Greenland.
04:56None whatsoever. We have as much claim to Greenland as Greenland does to Texas.
05:02The factual basis for this saber rattling is also completely nonsensical, even at just a kind of
05:07practical level. There is no national security need for us to control a country that is already
05:12our ally in the NATO alliance, part of the U.S. missile defense for 70 years. In fact,
05:18we already have a military base in Greenland. And I'll confess, I didn't used to know that.
05:24But you know how I do know that? I know it because Vice President J.D. Vance went to that
05:29base last
05:30year. And I promise he knows it exists. Trump wants it, it appears, because, and this is the way he
05:47said
05:47with a real estate mogul's eye, the landmass of Greenland, when asked why he needed to possess the
05:52territory, he said, because that's what I feel is psychologically needed for success. I think that
05:58ownership gives you a thing that you can't do, whether you're talking about a lease or a treaty.
06:03Ownership gives you things and elements that you can't just get from signing a document.
06:07Now, the other part of this, and it's almost too stupid to spend time on, but we have to.
06:12He also likes how it looks on the map. I mean, look how, man, look at that. Look how big
06:17and
06:17strategically important it is. And this is a person who's got weird issues about bigness.
06:22But as you map nerds out there know, that is purely due to an optical illusion with the Mercator
06:28projection when it attempts to display a spherical planet on a flat map, as you can see in this GIF
06:33from geographer Yaakov Nawasad. I mean, Greenland is pretty big, don't get me wrong. It is not
06:40continent-sized. And I honestly do think that's why Donald Trump wants it. That's a theory we've
06:46been kicking around for a while on this show. It's so sad for me to hear you say, I think
06:52it
06:52has something to do with the Mercator projection. Like, that's where our politics have come to,
06:58that we have to think about the kind of maps that we are showing our imbecile president of
07:03the United States. And so here we are. I mean, it's surreal. It's like a waking nightmare. So much
07:10of this period is. But we're near the precipice of what would be a totally unprecedented geopolitical
07:17crisis in the post-World War II era. I mean, it would move us off a period in history that
07:24is outside
07:24of the World War period of history and back towards that kind of world. Donald Trump could
07:33blow up NATO at any second, which of course would be a feature rather than a bug for this
07:37administration. And if there's any hope to walk this back, it rests with the fact that this is
07:42just wildly unpopular. I mean, we've got MSNOW reporters that have been on the ground in Greenland
07:47talking to residents. And the folks there, again, who matter a lot. It's where they live. It's their
07:52country and their territory. They could not be clearer about how they feel.
07:57I don't want to be American. I like my home country. It's Greenland. This is where I'm born.
08:05And there's where I want to live. So I don't want to lose our culture because if we want and
08:13if we
08:13be a part of America, we will lose our culture. We will lose our language. Yeah. So I don't want
08:20to
08:20be American. He's trying to buy people. We don't get bought up here. You can maybe buy a president
08:25in the United States, but you cannot buy the people of Greenland. That's the thing. We can take the
08:30money, use it in our own way, but we will not change our mind. Okay. So those are the folks
08:34in
08:34Greenland, the people that the president wants to conquer, right? He wants to occupy. He wants to
08:39subdue. What about Americans? A new Reuters poll shows that just 17%, 17, one, seven percent of
08:47Americans approve of Trump's efforts to acquire Greenland and only get this 4% support using
08:54military force. In a focus group with Republican Trump voters, which the New York Times published
09:00today, one man named Bill, a 62 year old from Minnesota, again, Trump supporter, Republican dude,
09:04summed it up like this, quote, Greenland has resources that Trump wants to be able to take
09:09advantage of. But what gives him the right to go in militarily and take it? Yeah. What gives him the
09:15right indeed? And that, Bill, thank you, is the view shared by basically everyone in the world
09:23outside of the Trump administration. Inez de la Cortara is an MSNOW international correspondent,
09:28and she joins me now from Nuke, Greenland. And as you've been there, as we've been covering this
09:34story, talking to people, I'd love to hear just what you've been hearing from the people you're
09:38talking to there. Yeah, Chris, I mean, they are really worried. They're taking this very seriously,
09:45especially after Venezuela. I think they're frustrated. You know, these are people who
09:49live in this beautiful, remote, very peaceful part of the world. And they are frustrated when
09:54they hear the president's rhetoric. I think for the most part, they just want President Trump
09:57to leave them alone. When you hear that Denmark, that NATO allies are going to be ramping up their
10:03military presence here. They're also telling me that they don't want to see military buildup
10:08in the region. They also feel disrespected. So, you know, there's a sense that these are
10:12conversations that are being had about Greenland without Greenlanders, that it's really these two
10:16colonial powers, the U.S. and Denmark, discussing Greenland's future without necessarily taking
10:21into consideration the people of Greenland, their history, their culture. And then I think they are
10:26also offended. When you look at reports like that Reuters report that came out a few days ago,
10:30saying that the Trump administration was considering sending Greenlanders lump sum payments
10:35anywhere from $10,000 to $100,000 per person to try and sway public opinion. That is deeply
10:40offensive to people here who are very proud, who say they cannot be bought. I spoke to one
10:46Greenlandic member of parliament about all of this. I'll let you listen to what she had to say.
10:52There were also reports that the Trump administration was considering paying
10:55people in Greenland. What's your reaction when you hear that?
10:59I think our values cannot be bought. Any amount of money cannot buy our country or our values,
11:06because here in Greenland, we value our indigenous rights. We value our culture. We value the
11:13environment. So I think these values cannot be bought. And like, no should be enough. You know,
11:19it's simply a no from us.
11:23And so, you know, Chris, I think even if Trump were somehow to pull this off,
11:27he has really alienated the population here. There's not a single person we've spoken to who
11:31says that they want to be American. Something we've heard time and time again is that people,
11:35they don't want to be Greenlanders. They don't want to be Danes. I'm sorry. They don't want to
11:38be Americans. They don't want to be Danes. They want to be Greenlanders. And interesting to know,
11:43you know, there had been a growing movement for independence from Denmark in recent years. But the
11:47Greenlandic prime minister is saying that considering the U.S.'s interest in Greenland
11:51recently, now is not the time to be discussing independence. And he says if Greenland had to
11:56choose between U.S. and Denmark, Greenland chooses Denmark. Chris.
12:02And as Stella-Kotaro, who's there in Greenland, I've been watching the reporting you've been doing.
12:06I really, really appreciate it. And thank you for staying up and joining us tonight.
12:13Dexter Filkins is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. His latest piece for The New Yorker is titled
12:17How Marco Rubio Went From Little Marco to Trump's Foreign Policy Enabler. And he joins me now.
12:23Dexter, you've been covering foreign policy and U.S. foreign policy throughout the world for decades.
12:29I've been reading you for decades. Do you have to kind of take a step back and shake yourself that
12:35this is... I keep having this sort of surreal feeling where I can't quite muster the right words to
12:41describe how completely insane this reality is?
12:45I mean, forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do. I mean, I feel like we're standing
12:52outside of a very expensive jewelry store and just watching a bunch of children, you know, have a party
12:59smashing everything. And everything being the North Atlantic Alliance, which is the most successful
13:07in history. It's kept the peace since 1945, since 1949. The Danes are our closest friends in the
13:16continent of Europe, you know, with the possible exception of Great Britain. When the United States
13:22was attacked on 9-11, the Danes sent troops to Afghanistan. More Danes were killed by proportion
13:30by proportion of their population than in the United States. When we went to fight in Iraq,
13:39even though we weren't attacked there, the Danes sent troops there. These are our closest friends.
13:44And I, you know, what, I mean, as you pointed out, we have had, the United States has had a
13:48military
13:48base and radar stations on Iceland since 1941, since World War II, since the beginning of World War II.
13:59And the Danes are, they're happy to do anything we want. I mean, and so if we asked them for
14:0410 bases,
14:05they would happily say yes. And that's, that's what's so, that's what's so mind boggling about
14:10this, which is I, when you watch it unfold, I feel like they actually may not know that in the
14:17White
14:17House. They may not know, you know, they may not know what NATO is and how it works, you know,
14:22and, and they, they may not understand that they already have a base on NATO and on, on, on Greenland.
14:28I, it's, so it's, it's painful because it's, uh, it seems, it seems irrational and it's,
14:34it's just horribly, horribly destructive.
14:38You know, there's a, uh, there's a few plaques in my old neighborhood that were written, that were
14:44written to commemorate the death of U S soldiers from that neighborhood who died in what in the
14:48plaque is called the great war. And it's called the great war because it's right after World War
14:52I. So it's not called World War I. It's the, the thinking men is we're not going to have another
14:58one.
14:58And of course there was another one, uh, just a little more than two decades. Yeah. And it just
15:04seems to me again, like, I don't want to be hyperbolic here, but like wars of conquest for
15:08territorial expansion and territorial claims on the continent of Europe have been the source
15:15of the most horrific atrocities and mass bloodshed in the history of human civilization. I think it's
15:22fair to say. And so like, that's what you're messing with here. It's not right. It's not
15:28hyperbolic to say that's the thing that's being futzed with here and, and, and joked about and
15:33trollingly posted about in terms of what is, would be essentially a war of territorial acquisition on,
15:40you know, against the European nation. Well, it's, I agree. It's, it's, it's worse. I mean,
15:45if you, if you, if you look at this is the period from 1945 to, to 2025 today is the
15:54most peaceful
15:55period. If, if we define say, uh, uh, a great power war, which we have not had, uh, a war
16:03between two great powers in, in anywhere in the world, uh, since, since 1945, that is the
16:10most peace, the longest period of peace since the end of the Roman empire in, in the fifth
16:16century. And, and, and that's what they're messing with here. And, and it's not, you know,
16:21this isn't, this isn't to be played with lightly. And I think it's like so much of what the Trump
16:28administration does is they, they're determined to tear things down. They're determined to kind
16:35of break and smash the, the institutions that they identify with, you know, the left and elite
16:41America and all that. Um, but they don't really have a vision for what they want to put in its
16:45place. And so if the United States were to actually, you know, if we wake up tomorrow morning
16:50and the hundred and first airborne division is in, is in Greenland, you know, that that's the end
16:55of NATO. And, and that's, that's the end of, again, the most successful military alliance in
17:00history. And that that's not a small thing. There's, um, there's a real frenetic set of
17:09conversations happening across European capitals. And I'm sure also in, you know, uh, Moscow and
17:13Beijing and a lot of other places about this. Um, what do you, what do you make of how the
17:19Europeans are reacting now? I mean, clearly the, the, the, the, putting these sort of nominal
17:24forces there as a kind of tripwire, right? It's, it's basically there to raise the stakes of,
17:30of some kind of incursion. What, what do you see as their response right now?
17:35Well, I'm, I mean, they're doing what we would do, which is like they're, they're moving troops
17:39out there. They just, the, the Danes just moved a military command out there. They're getting ready,
17:44they're getting ready to fight. And, and, and I, I, you know, the, the, I think it's, it's,
17:49it's a tripwire, but, um, I think what they're, the signal that they're sending is if you think
17:55you can just come in here and plant the flag, you're wrong. Like we're going to fight you for
17:59this. This is our territory and your boys are going to die. And, and I, what's, what's so painful
18:04about this is again, that Denmark just isn't any old country. Um, it's, it's, uh, this is like,
18:10these are the best friends we have on earth with the possible exception of, of great Britain.
18:16They are there. They've been there. Uh, they love America. Like, you know, they, like most of the
18:22country speaks perfect English. Um, there, uh, it, you know, they, they don't want this. They don't
18:29want this. They, they just, they just want to be our friends. So, so this is like you, you pick
18:35your,
18:35you're living in your neighborhood and you, you, you pick your best friend on the block and you go down
18:39there and you set his house on fire. Like, why would you do that? There's also this, I want to
18:46play this because there's also this weird, like, well, what if we just buy it from them? And it's
18:49just like weird, weird. It almost feels like a cultural gap. It was like, well, what's your price?
18:53It's like, we don't, we don't have a price. Take a listen to what the Danish foreign minister had to
18:56say on Fox today. I'm just doing the math here. 56,000, they get $500,000 a person. I mean,
19:07you don't think they're going to vote to break away. No, not at all. Because I think there's
19:12no way that U S will pay for Scandinavian welfare system in Greenland. Honestly speaking, you,
19:18you haven't introduced the Scandinavian welfare system. But you also don't believe the U S is
19:22going to invade Greenland. Do you? No, at least I do not hope so because I mean, that would be
19:29the
19:29end of nature. That no there, Dexter sort of tells you everything you need to know. That was,
19:34that was not a definitive no. Oh boy. No. I mean, I can't, I can't, it's hard to imagine that
19:42Trump
19:42would want to do this. And I think we might even be at the point where very important people and
19:48very senior people in the military might refuse because it's, it's so completely insane and,
19:54and against our national interests. I mean, we could, you know, we could sit here and argue about
19:58whether such an operation would be legal or not because it's in the realm of foreign affairs.
20:02The, the constitution is very gray, but, but it, it is, this operation has so little support. And
20:10again, it's, it seems to be based in almost complete and total ignorance of what, of what the actual
20:16reality is in Greenland and in Denmark and here, even here, there's, there's no popular support for
20:23this. Dexter Felkins. Thanks for making time for us tonight. Thank you. Thanks very much.
20:29Coming up as Trump's threats shake the international community center at Markey on the damage Trump's
20:34masked police are doing here at home. That's next.
20:39All across Minnesota, people are stepping up to help their neighbors who are being unjustly and
20:45unlawfully targeted. They're distributing care packages and walking kids to school and raising their
20:52voices in peaceful protest, even though doing so has made many of our fellow Minnesotans targets for
20:59violent retribution. Folks, I know it's scary and I know it's absurd that we all have to be defending law
21:06and order, justice and humanity while also caring for our families and trying to do our jobs. So tonight, let
21:12me say
21:12once again to Donald Trump and Kristi Noem, end this occupation. The governor of Minnesota addressed
21:19his state on prime time television tonight to urge calm in the face of the outrageous escalation and
21:25abuses by DHAFS officers roaming the streets of Minneapolis and its suburbs. Months of worsening
21:32strong arm tactics are culminating now in videos like this one from Monday showing officers rushing,
21:39beating and tear gassing protesters. As the abuses mount, the Department of Homeland Security yesterday
21:45shared this video of White House advisor Stephen Miller falsely telling ICE agents back in October
21:50they have carte blanche to arrest and abuse people. To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity in the
21:57conduct of your duties and anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop you or tries to
22:03obstruct you
22:03is committing a felony. That is not correct on the law and it certainly hasn't been brought out in
22:08reality. You can just ask the juries who keep acquitting protesters that DHS hauls in and tries to
22:13prosecute. The department clearly sees Miller's rant as a mandate for wreaking havoc on American cities.
22:20Now, as another deadline to fund the government closes in on Congress, Democrats are discussing how
22:24they can use their voting leverage to rein in these daily abuses. Senator Ed Markey, Democrat of Massachusetts,
22:30is leading a push to end qualified immunity for federal agents. And he joins me now. Senator, you saw the
22:37DHS
22:37resurface that address from Stephen Miller back in October saying that they had immunity. And of course, there is
22:43some immunity that adheres to law enforcement, whether state or local or federal. That's according to Supreme Court
22:49precedent. What do you want to see happen legislatively to rein in the kinds of abuses we're seeing?
22:58Well, first of all, Stephen Miller is wrong. There is not absolute immunity. If an ICE agent kills someone,
23:06they can be prosecuted for that. ICE agents should understand that. They're liable if they violate the
23:12constitutional rights of the citizens of the United States. They are not immune from the laws of our
23:18nation. But at the same time, there is another doctrine. It's called qualified immunity. And that's a
23:24special Supreme Court created precedent, which says that Rene Good's family, for example, cannot sue
23:34the ICE agent who murdered Rene Good. And that doctrine is something which must be repealed. Rene Good's
23:43family has a right to make that ICE officer accountable for what they did to their family. And that's why
23:51Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley and I have introduced legislation to repeal qualified immunity, which is
23:59what that's called, for state, local and federal law enforcement officers so that those officers are
24:08made accountable to those families. And to be clear, this would just allow a civil process to play out. I
24:15mean, it would still have to be adjudicated, right? You just because you can sue someone doesn't mean you'll
24:19win. And in fact, you know, there's going to be some whether a judge or jury is going to
24:23investigate the facts, etc. But right now, there's a there's been a growing body of law that makes it
24:27harder and harder to seek any civil remedy. When you see the videos and hear about what's happening
24:33in Minneapolis, and we've seen it in Chicago and L.A. and Memphis and other places. I mean,
24:38does it feel do you think that this is lawful and constitutional, fundamentally, what's happening,
24:45what you're seeing? This is just rank lawlessness that has been unleashed by Donald Trump, through
24:54Stephen Miller, down to Kristi Noem, and then these ICE officers roaming the streets of our country. And
25:05they are doing so in a way that is intended to terrorize people. It is intended to make it easier
25:13for
25:14them to to threaten. Let's be honest about it. Black and brown people in our country. It is part of
25:24a plan.
25:25And in addition to the 75 countries that Trump has now announced that he will not be giving new visas
25:33to,
25:33most of them are countries with black and brown people. It's all part of a plan, not just to make
25:40America great again.
25:41No, it's to make America hate again. It's to make America white again. That's the message every day
25:48on the streets of our country. And what they are doing is excessive force. No, it's excessive malice
25:57that they are engaging in every single moment that those ICE agents are out on the streets of our country.
26:02And that is why they must be brought home. And Congress must make that agency and this president accountable.
26:10Senator Murphy has said, as as we approach a vote on funding the government, and this is a little
26:18complicated because there's some appropriations bills that have actually come through and what's
26:22called regular order, there might be another continuing resolution. But Senator Murphy, among
26:27others, has said we can't vote to fund DHS if this continues. And we, you know, we can't write them
26:33a blank
26:33check. What's your view? Yeah, we can't reauthorize, reappropriate funding for ICE. We just can't do that.
26:44First of all, the funding is coming from cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, the Affordable Care Act,
26:50the Department of Education, the Environmental Protection Agency. That's where they're getting the
26:55funding in order to increase funding for ICE. So no funding for ICE. We just have to absolutely draw
27:03the line and not only say no funding for ICE, but we should begin an impeachment proceeding of Christy
27:09Noem, who is right now actually orchestrating on the streets of our country this this almost vigilanteism
27:16on the part of ICE agents terrorizing cities all across the country with right now Minneapolis being the
27:24prime example. Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts, thank you very much.
27:29Great to be with you. Thank you. Still ahead as Trump's DOJ refuses to release the Epstein files.
27:35Remember that? Remember that they had a deadline and they had to do it under law and then they've just
27:38stopped? Well, as that's happening, the president responds to criticism with a vulgar gesture. Next.
27:49By now I bet you've seen the video of Donald Trump visiting the Ford plant in Detroit, Michigan
27:54yesterday. A White House spokesman described the ugly incident in a typically nasty statement,
27:58the first half of which is absolutely true if you're talking about Donald Trump. Quote,
28:02a lunatic was wildly screaming expletives in a complete fit of rage.
28:21We quickly learned that the auto worker who called Trump a pedophile protector is 40-year-old T.J.
28:28Sebulia. He was suspended from work after the incident. Sebulia spoke to the Washington Post
28:33and said he was specifically referencing Trump's handling of the investigation into late child
28:37sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. He added, quote, as far as calling him out, definitely no regrets
28:42whatsoever. He said he's concerned about his job and believes he has been targeted for political
28:47retribution for embarrassing Trump in front of his friends. I don't feel as though fate looks upon you
28:53often. When it does, you better be ready to seize the opportunity, Sebulia said. And today, I think
28:58I did that. Congressman Ro Khanna is a Democrat of California, co-author of the Epstein Files
29:03Transparency Act, a law signed by Donald Trump which mandates the DOJ release all of its files on late
29:09sex offender and which they have not done. Congressman Khanna joins me now. Congressman,
29:14first, your reaction to that UAW worker who the union is standing behind? I imagine there'll be a
29:18grievance process filed here being suspended and also his choice of what he had to say when fate
29:24called upon him. Well, he showed courage. I mean, look, this Epstein issue has broken through in the
29:32culture in the way that most things in politics don't. And the reason it's broken through is Donald
29:38Trump promised to hold these rich and powerful men accountable who raped underage girls. He hasn't
29:44done that. He's protected them. And now he's got people on factory floors in places that voted for
29:51him calling him out. And good for this young man. And I certainly think it takes bravery to do that,
29:57given how lawless the Trump administration has been. I will say, given everything that's happened
30:03over the last week, which has been really insane, I mean, from the abduction of the Venezuelan
30:07president to the ICE deployment to the Greenland situation. When I saw that clip yesterday, I thought,
30:12oh yeah, it's pretty crazy that a law was passed. There was one vote against it in both houses. It
30:19was signed by Donald Trump. It had a clear deadline, clear statutory language about what had to be
30:24released. And they're just doing that. Like they haven't abided by the law. They've released what
30:32they say is like some small percentage. They've redacted things in contravention of the explicit
30:36statutory language. They've failed to produce things that are explicitly called for. Like what now?
30:44Well, Chris, Thomas Massey and I filed with the Southern District of New York to require a judge
30:51to have a special master and order the DOJ to release. The judge actually issued an order within
30:58a day of us filing that amicus brief. And we're hopeful that we will win the argument that he's
31:04going to order the release. But, you know, people ask me all the time, why is it that the MAGA
31:08base
31:08hasn't turned on Trump on Venezuela? We just lost in the Senate the war powers vote. Why is it that
31:14they don't found outrageous what the ICE officer did in shooting Renee Goode? Why are they quiet on
31:20tariffs or threats to universities? But they're outraged over Epstein. And the truth is it's
31:26because Epstein and that Epstein class goes to the heart of Trump's broken promise. He said,
31:31the elites have betrayed you. I'm going to stand up for ordinary Americans. And now he's part of the
31:35elites. He's part of the very cover up he ran against. This is the one thing that is kryptonite
31:41for him. And that's why you saw him react in the way he did. But it strikes me that the
31:45way they've
31:46dealt with it is so similar to everything else. Like, what are you going to do to make me is
31:50basically
31:51the way they operate. Whatever the law is, right? I mean, you know, this is clear as day. And I
31:56got to say,
31:56you know, having been around other administrations, having covered other administrations, Republican,
32:00Democrat, like there really is a call. There's just a difference in other administrations where
32:06there would be lawyers being like, yeah, we got to kind of, you know, we got to kind of play
32:09ball
32:10at least here. It doesn't even seem like they're pretending to play ball. At this point,
32:13it seems like they're basically stonewalling this.
32:19They're stonewalling and they're hoping it goes away. But then what happens is that
32:22people like Sean Ryan, a popular podcaster, will call them out on it, someone who supported
32:27Trump. And then they say, oh, no, our base needs to do something. And when I talk to Thomas Massey,
32:32he says Pam Bondi is the most unpopular cabinet member amongst Republicans. And so now you have a
32:39judge that is pushing this. I do believe, both talking to the survivors, lawyers who get some
32:44notifications from the Department of Justice and to people at Justice, that they are going to start
32:51to release these documents. They have released certain documents. And the Southern District of
32:56New York, I think, can play a big role in getting this to go faster.
33:01All right. Congressman Ro Khanna, thanks for your time tonight.
33:04Thank you, Chris.
33:06Coming up, Alex Wagner and Tim Miller on the swelling opposition to Donald Trump. That's next.
33:17Almost a year ago, Donald Trump and his new administration hit the ground fast,
33:20acting, as he famously said, like a, quote, dictator on day one. And it felt just like we were being
33:27bombarded. And they were intentionally trying to convey the sense that they were just this
33:32irresistible force, a steamroller flattening everything in their path, like smoothly rolling
33:37over opposition. A year later, something's clearly changed. They are still trying to do the same
33:42thing, still trying to steamroll everyone. They have the same malicious ambitions and,
33:45in some ways, even more dangerous ones on the international stage. But people are starting to
33:50dig in against it in a way they weren't a year ago. Tim Miller serves as RNC spokesman,
33:56now writer at large of The Bulwark. Alex Wagner is a senior political analyst for MSNOW,
33:59the host of Crooked Media's Runaway Country podcast. And they joined me now. Alex, you know,
34:04a year ago, it really, I really did have this kind of awful vertigo feeling that, like, they're
34:09doing all this stuff and it just didn't seem like anyone was stopping them. The tempo has not changed
34:15here. And what they're doing, they have not been, they have not, like, chilled at all. And a great
34:20example of this is Janine Pirro opening investigations, it appears, into the members of
34:26Congress who recorded a video stating a plainly true thing that the Constitution and the Code of
34:33Military Justice requires members of the services not to obey illegal orders. But the reaction is
34:40just so, you know, from everyone who's been targeted here is so different than the kinds of reactions we
34:47saw a year ago. I want to play Slotskin for you and then get your thoughts on this. Here's what
34:51she had to say.
34:56We are not going to back away. Our job, our duty is to make sure that the law is followed.
35:02We will
35:02not be threatened, we will not be intimidated, and we will not be silenced. I am more emboldened
35:08than ever to make sure that I am upholding my duty and I will not back down. That, of course,
35:13Jason Crowe, who's also been targeted. Alex, what do you think? Same story, different member of
35:18Congress. I think it's like for a while people were waiting for the herd to catch up, right? They
35:24felt like there was safety in numbers. And what we're seeing right now, and I would say I feel like
35:28Jerome Powell is a real benchmark for this, is people saying, individually, I can do this.
35:34I, we've reached the crisis point that I can no longer wait for, you know, a large group of
35:41people. There's no safety in numbers on this. I need to stand up for, I mean, these people are
35:44being individually and pointedly threatened by the administration, so that's certainly a motivator.
35:49But I just think people have gotten braver, you know? I mean, this is not without certain peril
35:54and inconvenience at best. And I think, you know, Jerome Powell, who is the Fed chair,
36:00right, shows us that not all heroes wear capes. And I do think, you know, when you have someone
36:06like that who's the head of a nonpartisan institution that acts independently, it puts
36:10enormous amount of pressure on everybody else to do the best they can to stand up to Trump too.
36:15And that extends to any other captains of industry who are presently being pressured
36:19by this administration. Yeah, that's, that's really well said. I think also partly what we're seeing,
36:24Tim, is, you know, they go after federal agencies and federal civil service workers
36:29and USAID, which is incredibly important, both morally and strategically for the U.S.,
36:34but also not at the, at the core of global power. And now, you know, we're having the classic
36:40Niemöller moment, right? The first they came moment where it's like, okay, well, now they're coming
36:44from the Federal Reserve and NATO. Like, you're talking about the twin pillars of the sort of global
36:50order for the last 70 years. They've fully got it in their sights.
36:56For sure. And I think that we've also kind of seen over the last year that the accommodating
37:00won't really work, right? And here's the thing, in the first term,
37:05it was true that accommodating, accommodating kind of worked, I guess is what you'd say in the first term,
37:10right? Like, there was a lot of, up until the very end, right? January 6th. But like,
37:13there was a lot of damage done, but a lot of, a lot of bumpers were put around Trump.
37:16You know, Gary Cohn was stealing stuff off his desk. You know, he was kind of outsourcing the
37:21policy in a lot of areas to like Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan for the first two years. Like,
37:26it was just a different animal this time. And so I think that a lot of the political actors,
37:31you know, a lot of the stuff you just mentioned, Doge, USAID, and that all happened in a month.
37:35Yeah. And like, that all happened before, you know, really we each, we reached like Valentine's
37:40Day of this first year. And so, you know, I think that people were unprepared for it. I think
37:45people were shell-shocked following the election. And I think people were making a bad calculus.
37:49Right now you see fewer and fewer political actors making that calculus. Still in the private sector,
37:54far too many are. But, you know, I think, and Alex and I were talking about this a little earlier,
37:59I think that across the ideological spectrum, you know, it isn't, you know, it's not like the leftists
38:04or the fighters, right? You know, like you have Alyssa Slotkin and Mark Kelly who are on the moderate
38:08side of the caucus, you know, who are going right at them. You have Jerome Powell, who's a non-partisan
38:12actor going right at them. You also have AOC, I think has been very compelling this week in
38:16her gaggles outside of the Capitol. And so I just think that you're like, there's a consensus is
38:22growing, at least on the political class. The only way to push back on him to gain any,
38:28or to gain any traction is to push back right at them, not to, you know, try to do any
38:31of the gimmicks.
38:33And you're also seeing foreign, you know, foreign countries, you know, putting military forces onto
38:38Greenland, right? Which is like, I mean, we talk about this phrase pushback, but that's the
38:43oldest kind of pushback that exists. It's like, we're not going to let you, Alex,
38:48we're not going to let you militarily seize our territory.
38:51Yeah. I mean, it's like, when this goes back to like fourth grade, maybe where it's like,
38:56you let the bully steal your lunch money only for so long before you realize the only way to deal
39:00with the situation is to punch him back in the nose. I mean, I'm not suggesting that we should go
39:05into
39:05outright war on Greenland, but like, not only is that the more effective strategy,
39:11it's also the only thing Trump respects, you know, secretly, I think that there's a question about,
39:15like, whether Jerome Powell effectively giving the rhetorical middle finger to Trump on Sunday night
39:20sort of made Donald Trump respect him more. And certainly having global outcry over it is
39:26meaningful. But like, you know, there are two tacks to take. You can either do as the acting US
39:31attorney in Minnesota did and say, I'm not doing this. This is not me. I'm not going to prosecute
39:36this case the way that you want me to and leave. Or you can stay in your position and fight.
39:41But
39:42neither way is appeasement. Appeasement is not a strategy that's going to work with this guy.
39:46And as a result, I mean, increasingly, the winged monkeys that Trump can dispatch to do this handiwork
39:51are dwindling in number. And it's like him and Janine Pirro against the world. Good luck on that mission,
39:57sir. And the other part of this equation, Tim, which we're seeing the streets of Minnesota is
40:01just people. And I really have to say, I've been so amazed. And we're not talking about,
40:06you know, the Fed chair. There's just people like just normal, average folks, neighbors,
40:11people walking around like some are super organized and they're just average citizens and neighbors.
40:15Some are just walking by a scene and they see something. But that is also to me,
40:20that's been the kind of engine of all this. They were there before the powerful people were.
40:26For sure. And we saw kind of the organized protests via the No Kings and Indivisible,
40:31that's been going on for a while now. And I think there's always a role for that,
40:35like the protester types, like the people who go to protests, you know? And I do think that's
40:38something that has also changed and really in the last couple of weeks, like even with what we've
40:43seen in Minneapolis is you're starting to see engagement for a lot of people. I'm just seeing
40:47this anecdotally, but I think, you know, there's a lot of evidence of this on the ground and people at
40:51Indivisible and those groups are saying that you're seeing regular people sign up because it's so
40:56outrageous. And I do think that's an important element as well. Tim Miller, Alex Wagner,
41:01great to have you both. As always, we'll be right back.
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