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00:00:28Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:39CastingWords
00:01:28CastingWords
00:01:29CastingWords
00:01:31Matt
00:01:31CastingWords
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00:01:39this is my mum carolyn i remember looking at it and being like i wonder if she was happy
00:01:47i knew that every person that i ever met was eventually going to ask me
00:01:53where my mom was and i dreaded it because i didn't want to have to explain
00:02:03the whole situation i felt a lot of shame around it just having to deal with other people's reactions
00:02:11or responses or opinions hold their anger confusion disgust pain surprise awkwardness
00:02:20or their silence sometimes i would make things up i would just say a different
00:02:28cause of death um that seems like simpler it was somewhere between i don't want to talk about it
00:02:36and just lying about the way she died but the truth is my dad killed my mum i was three
00:02:48months old
00:03:05my life was just always in the shadow of this horrible tragedy
00:03:19because i was never told anything i've always wanted to know
00:03:24what happened how it happened why it happened
00:03:29to keep knowing until somehow i can make it better
00:03:36i would never want this to happen to anybody
00:03:57i came to know carolyn probably about two well about two years before all of this happened
00:04:08um my name is jill brodie um i met carolyn when i was in my late 20s
00:04:15um and she was a wonderful teacher amazing musician kind and of course physically she was so beautiful
00:04:25my name is vicky sheaf i was a good friend of carolyn stucky in our late 20s early 30s
00:04:36um and now i'm sitting here at 71. yeah we got scholarships to go to teachers college and we
00:04:45developed very strong friendship and we just clicked she was teaching our children at the time and
00:04:52they had known her all their short lives and were very fond of her i can remember my son age
00:04:59five
00:04:59saying i love mrs stucky mum you know and he meant it i think she loved children i think you
00:05:07know
00:05:08you don't probably don't become a school teacher if you don't love children she says i'm going to go
00:05:14you know into miss lismore and i thought oh good on you you know and next thing she's in the
00:05:20paper
00:05:20and she's one this one is where she was announced miss lismore
00:05:31and there's jackie weaver down there and some guys going in the background it was a big thing it was
00:05:40real prestigious to be you know miss lismore oh yeah you were special so yeah she she would have been
00:05:47easily recognizable definitely she was the sort of woman that people would turn around and look at
00:05:54but she was oblivious to her beauty she was oblivious to the effect she had on people
00:06:01i was with carolyn at the lismore workers club and it was a wednesday night when she met her husband
00:06:08alan stucky i don't know whether he owned the pharmacy but he was certainly the principal in the
00:06:12pharmacy in lismore and he was eight years older so he was he was well placed but we're only 18
00:06:20you
00:06:21know we're going who's this dude you know this dude coming over here she was there for the picking
00:06:28wasn't she she's a pretty little thing big blue eyes blonde hair easily easily won over i would say
00:06:38this one is um the two of them and my dad's sister uh at their wedding
00:06:48i mean the first thing i think is those sideburns were quite quite a statement
00:06:57yeah i mean look it's it's a bit strange to look at wedding photos of them
00:07:05there's a lot of like hope and promise in that moment of a future that
00:07:12would look a lot different than it turned out to look um
00:07:23her marriage to alan stucky they they just didn't to me and to a lot of people didn't seem to
00:07:32mash together he was into tennis big way but yeah that wasn't her thing at all no she's more literary
00:07:41and arty and music and you know different yeah they were chalk and cheese really when you when you
00:07:48analyze it like that the lismore theater club was a very kind of vibrant community
00:07:59i think it was a place where a lot of people could kind of have some fun and have this
00:08:05social
00:08:06connection most of our friends at that time belonged to the theater club and carolyn had never previously
00:08:14been in the theater club but i think she envied the fun we had and so she auditioned
00:08:22is it the cold being a ghost no i don't think so what happens if i punch you i doubt
00:08:29if you can do
00:08:30you want to oh well vera life spirit is a play written by noel coward it's about a man who
00:08:37is
00:08:38haunted by the ghost of his dead wife the ghost is played by my mum carolyn you are here aren't
00:08:44you
00:08:44you're not an illusion i may be an illusion but i'm most definitely here and her husband is played by
00:08:51alan and you you must promise me that in future you'll only come and talk to me when i'm alone
00:08:57my dear madame i'm afraid i'm wrong and also in this play was alan's wife madeline who is playing
00:09:35a psychic
00:09:43The last time I was here was when Bly's Spirit was a production.
00:09:58This dad, it's a very typical dad in theatre club look.
00:10:04There's mum.
00:10:08You know, my dad loved this place, he loved acting, and mum did too.
00:10:12She was a good actor.
00:10:15There's a program there, who's in it, and then a bunch of photos.
00:10:26It's this one.
00:10:28There's a couple like this with dad and Caroline.
00:10:31Just this moment caught where they're looking at each other and I just go, yeah.
00:10:39You know, that's the sort of vibe that my mum would have got hold of.
00:10:45Because the emotions were real, right?
00:10:48They weren't just acting.
00:10:54I don't know all the details of what went on there.
00:10:58But definitely a relationship was developing and a friendship and an attraction.
00:11:04The silliest thing I ever did in my whole life was to love you.
00:11:08They say a grand passion is like an insanity, and it was for both of them.
00:11:12I came because the power of Charles' love, tugged and tugged and tugged at me.
00:11:19Didn't make my sleep.
00:11:22Yes, there was a lot of sneaking around, which happens in an affair, but lots of presents
00:11:28and flowers and gifts.
00:11:31I did have to keep a secret.
00:11:34I could see how happy they both were.
00:11:37I mean, I cared deeply for Madeline as well, so that was very difficult.
00:11:42The risks that Alan Inu and Carolyn took.
00:11:46The notes that were left on the telegraph pole at the end of the road, on her car.
00:11:51I saw one at the supermarket when I was there one day, walk past her car, and there was one
00:11:56of these notes.
00:11:57My dearest, most precious Carolyn, I love you.
00:12:03You are a wonderful man.
00:12:05Kind, thoughtful, understanding.
00:12:10I love the thoughts of our ultimate togetherness, which I now see is inevitable.
00:12:15Alan Inu had moved out of his home and had rendered a little flat.
00:12:23Madeline wasn't coping at all.
00:12:25She lost a lot of weight very quickly.
00:12:29I remember one day she told me she was going to kill herself.
00:12:33I said, oh, you know, you can't do that.
00:12:35Her two boys were at university in Sydney.
00:12:38Her daughter, Claire, was 18.
00:12:41She said she couldn't be jilted.
00:12:43She couldn't be left on her own as someone left for the younger person.
00:12:49She couldn't deal with that humiliation.
00:12:51And I spoke to my GP and he said what people used to say in those days.
00:12:55He said, oh, if they talk about it, they don't do it.
00:12:59And he was a well-meaning man, but that was wrong.
00:13:05Alan found the body and she'd organised so that Claire wasn't home that night.
00:13:10And sure enough, everything in the house was tip top.
00:13:15Food was made for her own funeral.
00:13:21In her letter to me, because she wrote suicide letters,
00:13:25she told me not to blame my father.
00:13:28And honestly, I don't.
00:13:29I don't blame anyone in this story.
00:13:32It's just really hard being the child of that story, you know.
00:13:41It's all very tragic to think about the fact that these two women in this play
00:13:47are now dead in the ways that they died.
00:13:56Carolyn was, she was devastated by it and felt incredible guilt.
00:14:03I would say that Alan Inu, he was very sad about Madeleine
00:14:08and it was a traumatic and hideous thing that happened and he found her.
00:14:13But he was so obsessed with the fact that one day Carolyn would come to him
00:14:18and so he bought this big house.
00:14:21That was going to be the home with lots of bedrooms
00:14:23so that they could have all their children there eventually at times.
00:14:27That was his idea.
00:14:28No-one wanted to be divorced.
00:14:30No-one wanted to leave their husband
00:14:31because there was a lot of stigma in the community.
00:14:35Not today, but back in the 70s, dead right, and 80s.
00:14:40If she left the marriage, she was concerned.
00:14:44I guess the parents of her students, the church.
00:14:48She felt enormous shame for going against what she had been taught
00:14:53as far as her religion was concerned.
00:14:56Religion was a big part of growing up in the 50s and 60s.
00:15:00Huge, you know.
00:15:01Everybody.
00:15:02It was rare for a family not to go to church.
00:15:06When she told us that Alan Stucky had found out,
00:15:09I thought, right, now something will happen now.
00:15:12Either she will stay with him or she'll go with Alan Ennu,
00:15:15but at least it's not this terrible, dangerous game that they were still playing.
00:15:22You've distanced yourself and made me resentful by taunting me with Alan Ennu.
00:15:28If you do not love me, then I cannot go on to even try to work things out.
00:15:35My mum decided to stay with my dad, and he made her swear on the Bible
00:15:42and he wrote vows for her to take.
00:15:49I swear never to say or do anything again to hurt you.
00:15:54I swear never to lie to my husband, Alan, ever again.
00:15:59I swear that the affair is over completely
00:16:03and that I will never do anything directly or indirectly
00:16:07to have any type of relationship with him again.
00:16:11Alan, I swear to love, honour and cherish you for the rest of my days.
00:16:18I asked her if she was worried for her own safety, and she said,
00:16:24no, no, she said I'm not, but I am worried what he might do to Alan Ennu.
00:16:32Alan, if you should have any thoughts of trying to rekindle the relationship
00:16:36or even getting in touch with her in any way, then I will tell you now,
00:16:40you will join your wife.
00:16:45But she was very unhappy.
00:16:49She, well, she'd just had a baby.
00:16:53It must have been so stressful for her.
00:16:56And she had two little boys as well.
00:17:03My darling Alan, to choose to go to you meant the disruption of her family,
00:17:09gossip and talk about the cause of Madeline's death.
00:17:15To stay with Alan meant unbearable pain for you.
00:17:20For me, it meant an ache inside which I know will be with me every day
00:17:25for the rest of my life.
00:17:28She'd supposedly broken off with Alan Ennu.
00:17:31It was over.
00:17:32Suddenly, she was seeing him again.
00:17:34And I said, Alan Stuckey will not let her go without a fight.
00:17:39We always knew that he was a man who would not be able to accept it.
00:17:48Like a lot of people, I suppose.
00:17:52And then he puts a private detective on her.
00:17:54Good God.
00:17:56She thought Alan Stuckey had been having her followed.
00:18:00I think she said, a little grey Volkswagen.
00:18:03I think I'm being followed.
00:18:06And to which I just thought, oh my God, where's that going to go?
00:18:11There's absolutely no excuse for that behaviour.
00:18:14Monitoring someone's movements is a huge indicator of family violence.
00:18:18Of coercive control.
00:18:20I find it really disturbing that he did that.
00:18:23That he felt justified in doing that.
00:18:39My darling.
00:18:41I'm going to ask you again for the complete peace of mind.
00:18:45Have you had any contact since your vows?
00:18:49I beg you.
00:18:51I implore you.
00:18:52Do not tell me a lie.
00:18:55It is the most important question you will ever answer.
00:19:01All I know is I love you more than anything.
00:19:05Alan.
00:19:09I happened to be in the station on the 31st of January 1985 when the phone rang and I answered
00:19:18it.
00:19:18There was a male voice on the other end of the phone.
00:19:21Alan very calmly said, it's Alan Stuckey from Five Banksia Court, Lisboa Heights.
00:19:29And I said, yes Alan, how can we help you?
00:19:33And he said, you'd better come up.
00:19:35I've just shot my wife.
00:19:37You know, when you did your training at the police academy, one of the things that I do
00:19:41remember very clearly that they instilled in young police was that domestic violence incidents,
00:19:48attending those, was the most dangerous situation that we would go to.
00:19:55Of course, you know, I was anxious approaching the house under those circumstances.
00:20:01And, you know, we went into the house and Alan Stuckey was sitting in the kitchen at a bench.
00:20:08He was just sitting there calmly, sipping coffee from a mug, as though nothing had happened.
00:20:16It was, yeah, it was quite surreal.
00:20:24I walked into the main bedroom and there was a double bed to the right.
00:20:30At the foot of the bed was a female person.
00:20:35It was quite shocking, obviously, what had happened to start with, but also having the,
00:20:41you know, the three children in the house at the time.
00:20:45And, yeah, by good fortune, perhaps nothing happened to them.
00:20:53At the time.
00:20:54I was teaching down the other end of the peninsula here.
00:20:58I had on the playground on duty and my husband pulled up.
00:21:01I said, what are you doing here?
00:21:02He said, oh, I've got terrible news to tell you.
00:21:06I turned the radio on next to the bed.
00:21:10And it said that a 32-year-old new small woman had been shot dead overnight.
00:21:18Police were at the scene in Goodellaba.
00:21:21And we knew.
00:21:25It was fairly hysterical in our house.
00:21:27We were incredibly upset.
00:21:30Alan had killed Carolyn.
00:21:32And as a child, I just had no concept of what that, how that could happen.
00:21:39I can still remember the feeling and thinking, oh, my God, I could have stopped this.
00:21:45That was something I think a lot of people thought.
00:21:50In a case like that, a murder or an unlawful killing of someone, we call out the detectives.
00:21:58They come to the scene.
00:21:59They take over the investigation.
00:22:01The lead investigator was Detective Sergeant Don Kuehl.
00:22:06Senior Counselor Will Palmer rang me at home, told me that there had been a shooting and
00:22:12a lady was deceased.
00:22:14We went back to the police station where he was interviewed in the presence of his solicitor.
00:22:20Given some of the answers and whatnot, I'd say that he'd run through a lot of the possible
00:22:26situations with his solicitor prior, which he's entitled to do.
00:22:31For the information of this record of interview, what is your full name?
00:22:34Alan James Stuckey.
00:22:37I had reason to doubt her fidelity and I engaged the private investigator to check her movements.
00:22:42Can you tell me what happened?
00:22:44She admitted that she had been with Alan and you on that day.
00:22:47She said she couldn't give him up.
00:22:49What did you do?
00:22:50I took the rifle from my study and raced back to the bedroom.
00:22:54She screamed and grabbed the barrel of the rifle and we struggled.
00:22:58Shots were fired.
00:23:00When did you load this rifle?
00:23:01I was going to shoot a flying fox a couple of months ago and that's when.
00:23:05Did you leave the magazine loaded with live cartridges in this rifle in your study?
00:23:10Yes, but it was right back behind the bed so that it's not easy for anybody to get at.
00:23:15What happened then?
00:23:16I had a shower and tried to compose my mind and work out if I should kill myself or not.
00:23:22I rang my sister to ask her to come and collect my children.
00:23:25And it occurred to me that there was a debt that I hadn't paid and that was to the private
00:23:29investigator.
00:23:30And I rang his residence to tell him that his money was in the work safe.
00:23:34I didn't want to feel that I had left some money hoeing.
00:23:37You have explained to us your wife's affair with the person, Helen, in you.
00:23:41Is that the only reason you can give us for this shooting having taken place?
00:23:45Yes.
00:23:46And considerations allied to it, yes.
00:23:48Is there anything further you wish to say in relation to this matter?
00:23:52Just that the affair has been going on for two years.
00:23:56That's all.
00:24:01I was three months old.
00:24:04My brothers were four and eight.
00:24:07And to have the children in the house when he did it.
00:24:11I mean, you can't imagine that scene.
00:24:15I don't think you can make sense of it.
00:24:18It's unforgivable.
00:24:19It should never have happened.
00:24:23I mean, the type of thing that was going on happens all the time.
00:24:28People don't die for it.
00:24:31After he was charged with murder, Alan Stuckey was bailed.
00:24:37The reason he would have got bailed is because of his standing community as a chemist.
00:24:41No prior convictions.
00:24:44His young children were still there.
00:24:45He's not going to decamp.
00:24:48So Stuckey got bailed.
00:24:50We're back to work, I think.
00:24:53My dad was charged with murder.
00:24:56But the trial wasn't for a year and a half.
00:25:00It was quite surprising to me, I think, when I realised that my brothers and I were at home with
00:25:07my dad a lot of that time.
00:25:10He was able to get out, resume a normal life with his children, with his three young children, back in
00:25:19his house in Lismore Heights and go back as a practicing pharmacist of all things.
00:25:25Despite the fact that he had killed Caroline, he still had the legal right to dispose of her body as
00:25:34her husband.
00:25:35And he just simply had her cremated instantly with no ceremony.
00:25:43And nobody had a chance to recognise what had happened or to say goodbye to her.
00:25:53It was just as though she'd been put out with the rubbish.
00:25:57I've always wanted to know everything about it, you know, like everything surrounding it.
00:26:05I've always wanted to know what happened, how it happened, why it happened.
00:26:15That's been a lifelong journey.
00:26:22I want to understand where we were and where I was and what happened afterwards and why the decisions that
00:26:31were made were made.
00:26:39So part of it is just wanting to know about my own life and know information and put those puzzle
00:26:46pieces together.
00:26:52So this is the trial transcript.
00:26:58And are you feeling okay about looking at it now?
00:27:01I am. I feel a little bit nervous about it.
00:27:06I don't know. There's a part of me that sort of wants information and then sort of wants to look
00:27:10at it.
00:27:10And then a part of me that finds it quite, you know, upsetting.
00:27:14Absolutely.
00:27:16So in this trial, your father argued that he acted in response to provocation.
00:27:24The provocation in this case was said to be that Carolyn was having an affair.
00:27:32They're arguing that a person's actions contributed to their death.
00:27:39Yeah.
00:27:40The provocation defence is actually a partial defence.
00:27:43It will reduce your culpability from murder to manslaughter.
00:27:49The guideline of the provocation and the evidence required is that it comes back to what an ordinary person would
00:27:57do under those circumstances.
00:27:59So in other words, you and I, would we react the same way as Alan Stuckey acted given the circumstances?
00:28:08People's marriages break down.
00:28:11I'm a lawyer.
00:28:12And I hate being a family lawyer, but somebody's got to do it.
00:28:16And it happens all the time.
00:28:19But you don't turn around and kill your spouse.
00:28:27Your full name is?
00:28:29William Arthur Barclay, a consultant psychiatrist now in private practice.
00:28:34Are you able to express an opinion as to whether that conduct could have induced an ordinary person to lose
00:28:42self-control in psychiatric terms?
00:28:45Yes, I believe so.
00:28:48There was a certain element of if someone was wronged in that way, then they could be excused for not
00:28:57being able to control themselves.
00:28:58There's an ordinary person get a gun, which is already in the house, loaded, with three young children in the
00:29:06place.
00:29:08There's an ordinary person do that.
00:29:10And there's an ordinary person shoot his wife.
00:29:14And there's an ordinary person have a shower, ring a friend, ring his solicitor.
00:29:18There's an ordinary person do that.
00:29:20The person that they've killed is no longer able to give their side of the story or talk about what
00:29:26they went through.
00:29:28It's very one sided.
00:29:30And it's highly critical of that person.
00:29:33And then at the same time, you also get people giving evidence about the positive characteristics of the accused.
00:29:42When you spoke to your brother, can you describe how he appeared to you to be?
00:29:48Extremely upset.
00:29:50What sort of person is your brother?
00:29:53A very serious minded, very moral, quiet, shy, very idealistic person.
00:30:02I also think very naive.
00:30:04Is he a violent sort of person?
00:30:07No.
00:30:08No.
00:30:09No, not at all.
00:30:09He loved the children.
00:30:11He always has.
00:30:13Did he ever express to you the view he took of marriage?
00:30:17That marriage is a sacred thing.
00:30:22It seemed so odd to me that none of her friends got to speak for her, at least, because she
00:30:30wasn't able to speak.
00:30:31So it's like there were other people who could have at least spoke to her character and given some indication
00:30:41of what she was going through.
00:30:43I just, yeah.
00:30:45Yeah.
00:30:45It becomes very one sided sort of view of what happens in that situation, doesn't it?
00:30:51Yeah.
00:30:52Sometimes the prosecution could go much further in the way that they approach this and in trying to ask questions
00:31:00and get more information about that context.
00:31:03Mm.
00:31:04They don't always understand the dynamics of family violence themselves.
00:31:09Yeah.
00:31:09And the importance of it for understanding what happens in domestic homicides.
00:31:16What we really needed in this trial as far as the prosecution is concerned, we needed someone that was going
00:31:22to get in there and fight like a bulldog and shake their head and carry on.
00:31:25And unfortunately, we finished up with a golden retriever.
00:31:30I was appalled at the lack of prosecution.
00:31:33I mean, I remember sitting in the back of the court and just thinking, oh, my God.
00:31:37The worst thing about trying to recover from this for all of us was that there was so, so much
00:31:47shock and horror because she was this scarlet woman.
00:31:52We would hear indirectly about the outrage about what this woman had done to this poor chap, not what this
00:32:00chap had done to this poor woman.
00:32:03Yeah, I just think there was this mindset that she's the villain in all this.
00:32:10She's done the wrong thing.
00:32:12And in a sense, I hate to say it, but some of those people, I'm sure, think she got what
00:32:18she deserved.
00:32:37So there's quite a lot of evidence in relation to the ballistics, what sort of weapon was used and how
00:32:45that weapon is operated.
00:32:50Carol was shot three times, once in the abdomen, twice in the head.
00:32:56Oh, this one's really graphic.
00:33:03After the first shot, she's wounded lying on the floor, and she wouldn't have died from that shot either, the
00:33:09doctors have said.
00:33:11Surely, he should have realised what he's doing.
00:33:14Two more times, he cocked that gun and fired it again.
00:33:17And this is a bolt-action gun, a bolt-action .22 rifle.
00:33:21So it's not like a semi-automatic where you just have to pull the trigger.
00:33:24There was a manual requirement to reload that gun.
00:33:31Or you can probably just do it like that.
00:33:33That's one. Bang.
00:33:36Two.
00:33:37It's a very deliberate action, that's what I'm trying to say.
00:33:45Yeah, there is quite a lot in the trial transcript about where abouts in the house the shooting occurred.
00:33:52There's a map that's been provided as part of the evidence.
00:33:57And you see that there.
00:33:59Yeah.
00:34:00This is my bedroom.
00:34:02This is my dad's room, still, all the way through my life.
00:34:06Absolutely.
00:34:06I go into this room every day that she was, you know, lying here dying and just...
00:34:15Yeah, that's horrible.
00:34:16Yeah, it's awful.
00:34:26He was undoubtedly at all times a man of exceptional character and obvious good standing in the community.
00:34:34The prisoner's control of himself over a lengthy period ultimately snapped when his wife told him she could not give
00:34:41up her lover.
00:34:42In the circumstances, some response on his part would not have been unreasonable.
00:34:48However, to shoot the deceased three times was hardly proportionate to the devastating verbal message.
00:34:56It was greater than the circumstances warranted.
00:35:00In my view, the prisoner is unlikely to again offend against the law.
00:35:05The prisoner's strong subjective matters, unlike many other cases, provide the basis for specifying a non-parole period which will
00:35:14give him the opportunity of resuming his life in the community and with his children at a reasonably early time.
00:35:22Alan James Stuckey, on the charge on which the jury has convicted you, I sentence you to penal servitude for
00:35:31eight years.
00:35:31I specify a non-parole period of three years.
00:35:38She, like, sort of made me do it.
00:35:40She ran off, you know, went off with another man.
00:35:43Poor, it was all, poor me, poor me, I'm the victim here.
00:35:48Yeah, it makes me really furious, actually.
00:35:53I have difficulty reconciling the fact that this matter resulted in a conviction for manslaughter, I really do.
00:36:01But of course I have to accept the court's decision, that's the system of justice that we have in this
00:36:05country.
00:36:06Even though we don't have provocation defence available in most states in Australia anymore, we still see the same explanations
00:36:15for why men acted the way they did in these cases.
00:36:21The provocation narrative can still be used to understand their actions when they're considering sentencing.
00:36:27Right. I asked him one time, like, he said something about the fact that he'd never apologised to us and
00:36:33he was like, I don't owe you or anyone an apology.
00:36:36Wow.
00:36:38The absence of the impact on the children is really striking as well.
00:36:45Yeah. It felt like a real sense of, like, what's best for my father and really centred around him rather
00:36:51than thinking about us and the long-term impacts of the decisions that were made.
00:36:57And the actual conclusion of that drama was catastrophic for the children especially.
00:37:24So these are, um, letters that my dad wrote me when he was in prison. So I was probably about
00:37:32two or three years old.
00:37:35Most of them are, um, like, pictures of birds that my dad has drawn or trees.
00:37:47Dear Catherine, it is Sunday here as I am writing this and the weather is very poor.
00:37:52There is a big fog all over the camp and it is just so thick it is almost like rain.
00:37:58This is a kookaburra. See his big strong beak for eating meat?
00:38:02Sometimes they eat snakes and their song is just like a laugh.
00:38:06Love, Dad.
00:38:17My father served 22 months for killing my mother.
00:38:22On his release, my brothers and I went back to live with him.
00:38:26I was about four years old.
00:38:31I was appalled that he could be given custody of the children.
00:38:35I cannot understand how the court made an order that she was to live with her father.
00:38:44I really cannot understand that.
00:38:48So this is a picture of me in primary school.
00:38:54I excelled at school and I had a lot of friends and I enjoyed it.
00:39:00But it felt like a different world when I went home.
00:39:04I felt a real disconnect between what I was showing people and what I was experiencing internally.
00:39:13I wasn't allowed to talk about my mother.
00:39:19They weren't photos, they weren't stories.
00:39:23I didn't have any sense of who she was.
00:39:28Her name was never mentioned.
00:39:33The story that I was told was that she had done this awful thing.
00:39:40He had snapped and then he killed her and really framed as this sort of accident.
00:39:52I feel like there was a really significant shift in my relationship with my dad.
00:39:58When I went to high school, I really felt like I had become someone that he really didn't like.
00:40:08Where there was this sense of, like, entitlement and control.
00:40:12And that if you step outside of this little box that he's kind of put you in,
00:40:18then you become this huge disappointment and you're uncontrollable.
00:40:26I knew that I had to be a certain way, show that I was fine, even if I was suffering.
00:40:38Feeling like at any moment, love will be withdrawn.
00:40:46I just remember bumping into her one day and I knew it was her birthday and I took her around
00:40:50to the cafe and we had nice chocolate and we had a chat.
00:40:55She told me that she understood that her mother was leaving her and the boys and I just said, no,
00:41:05that's not true.
00:41:12That's what her father had told her and I told her that there was no way her mother would have
00:41:24left her and the lies that she'd been told were just not right.
00:41:35When I was 16, I needed to get my passport and I needed to get a death certificate.
00:41:44And so it was the first time I actually had seen her cause of death, like written down, which was
00:41:49something like the effects of a gunshot wound to the head, which was incredibly confronting for me at 16 because
00:41:58nobody had ever said that to me.
00:42:00They hadn't actually said, like, this is how she died.
00:42:03I remember that feeling of reading that death certificate and being really shocked at, I guess, the bluntness of it,
00:42:11but just also that that was what it was, you know, that my dad had shot her in the head.
00:42:20And that knowledge made me realize that I was unsafe, actually, like physically unsafe.
00:42:30And it's not, it's like I felt that before, but I had this example of like how far he could
00:42:37go.
00:42:38I felt scared of my dad at that time.
00:42:43And what he could do because I was also just living on my own with him at that point.
00:42:49My brothers had left home.
00:42:51And I think, why didn't anyone else?
00:42:53Why didn't the adults, you know, ask some questions, check in, all of those things?
00:43:00It's not like people didn't know that that was fucking strange.
00:43:04That was a weird thing that we were growing up in the house that our mother was killed with the
00:43:10man that killed her.
00:43:14I think there was an assumption that everything was fine.
00:43:19Everyone wanted it to be fine.
00:43:20So I thought, well, if I'm not fine, then something's wrong with me, not them.
00:43:28I started having nightmares about her death, like very graphic nightmares about her being shot in this house that I
00:43:39was living in.
00:43:41And it was also just like my everyday house, you know, like coming from school and making myself a snack.
00:43:47And, you know, sometimes I would watch something with my dad and it was funny and we'd laugh and it
00:43:53was just my life.
00:43:54And it was also terrifying at times.
00:43:58Yeah.
00:44:09I knew that to have any sort of peace that I needed to leave Lismore.
00:44:17And I finished my last exam, packed up my stuff and one day when my dad was at work and
00:44:23just left.
00:44:28I actually don't remember saying goodbye to my dad at all.
00:44:32So I went to Sydney and moved in with my cousin, Elle, and the family.
00:44:40And we went to uni together at Sydney Uni.
00:44:44At some point I got a job at Sydney Theatre Company and that's where I met Tanya.
00:44:52Catherine's my best friend, my former partner.
00:44:56We met in 2008.
00:45:00Neither of us had been in a queer relationship before, so our falling in love was a really beautiful time
00:45:06and also a complicated time.
00:45:07We had, like, great crew of friends that we spent time with and saw a lot of art.
00:45:12We were super broke, but it was a beautiful kind of love story and then also, like, interwoven with a
00:45:23lot of trauma and pain, I guess.
00:45:26I felt like I would leave behind, like, everything that had happened and including that feeling of, I guess, you
00:45:38know, depression.
00:45:39And I just assumed that that would go away once I was out of the house and away from my
00:45:45dad.
00:45:49And it didn't.
00:45:51In fact, it felt worse.
00:45:54I was more depressed.
00:45:56I was really depressed.
00:45:57I don't think I've ever seen Catherine asleep.
00:46:02And we were together for four years.
00:46:05Insomnia and nightmares were a big part of our life.
00:46:09They would sit bolt upright and they would be screaming.
00:46:13It was a guttural scream.
00:46:17And they would be shaking, hyperventilating.
00:46:21It was just fear.
00:46:23Just, just fear.
00:46:26How anyone thought that he could raise those kids in the home where he killed Carolyn
00:46:32and then have one of them grow up with physical likeness to this person
00:46:37and for people not to think that there was going to be some problems there perplexes me.
00:46:44My father was still in regular contact with me and writing me letters that were pretty awful.
00:46:53Some days we would be going about our days in our tiny little apartment and it was like living with
00:46:58someone that wasn't there.
00:47:00Like they were the closest person to me in the world.
00:47:03So when they did disappear, it was difficult.
00:47:09And I didn't know what to do.
00:47:12And it was during that time that I went through a lot of things in my life, a breakup with
00:47:19Tanya, that brought a lot of grief and loss into my, to my world.
00:47:29So I started going to therapy like really seriously for the first time and really started dealing with my childhood.
00:47:52So in 2013, I dropped my surname Stucky and I made my middle name, my surname, which is Joy.
00:48:02And Joy was my mum's middle name.
00:48:05Part of it was not wanting to just be easily tracked down by my father.
00:48:12And then there was really embracing my mum and that side of the family.
00:48:38I always felt like I wasn't going to be around for very long.
00:48:44Like I was going to have a short life.
00:48:47Like my mum.
00:48:50I worked out how old she was when she was killed, which was 32 years, nine weeks and six days.
00:49:00And I worked out what date that will be for me.
00:49:04And it's the 27th of December, 2016.
00:49:09So I have a cut off date in my head and I have about six months.
00:49:15I've always just assumed that I would die sometime before then.
00:49:23That's, that's it for me.
00:49:35Part of feeling like I'm not going to be here next year is not having a mother to kind of
00:49:44see what that looks like.
00:49:45What that next part looks like and getting older looks like.
00:49:48And a lot of people look to their parents for that.
00:49:52But part of it I think is just that I feel like we're somehow the same person.
00:50:03And that's probably not the healthiest thing in the world.
00:50:15So it's like 2am or something and I can't sleep because I've never been able to take sleeping pills because
00:50:26they give me these nightmares.
00:50:29I feel like having them around is probably not a good idea, so.
00:50:43I'm supposed to be at therapy today.
00:50:47I had to cancel it because I can't afford to go.
00:50:51Like I'm 32 and I can't pay my rent.
00:50:58I think that's enough for today.
00:51:06I really didn't want to do this today because I feel awful and I'm afraid of not coming out of
00:51:19it.
00:51:31Today is December 26th.
00:51:36So tomorrow I will be the exact age that my mother was when she was killed.
00:52:09So tomorrow I will be the exact age that they would be the same as as as being able to
00:52:11get older.
00:52:11I'm not sure that my mother would never get older than I can't afford to be the same as being.
00:52:11So it's just my mother and your mother.
00:52:22So, today is New Year's Day, and I'm alive, so that's kind of strange.
00:52:32I've just realised how many people in my life are willing to help,
00:52:38and it's a really beautiful thing.
00:52:40So, I guess just thinking about the next couple of months,
00:52:44thinking about how I'm going to survive.
00:52:49And some of those things are just kind of practical things to do with work
00:52:55and finding another job.
00:53:00I think I need to learn to drive.
00:53:07I will.
00:53:11I guess be back tomorrow.
00:53:21For such a long time, the only thing that I knew about my mum was the way that she died.
00:53:31Then that became my whole relationship with her.
00:53:38It's been really important to me for her to exist as a person who lived,
00:53:44and not just a person who was killed.
00:53:54I decided that I wanted to write to some people and ask them what my mum was like.
00:54:08So, we're going to Brisbane to meet Anne McKinnon, a friend of my mum's.
00:54:16I'm excited because I never really knew what happened to her.
00:54:23We couldn't get a lot of information.
00:54:27We lost our friend, but you don't know what happened to the children.
00:54:32I probably had never thought about it from the point of view of the child.
00:54:36Their feelings and what their lives turned out like.
00:54:43When my mum was younger, I think they studied together at Teachers College, from what I know.
00:54:49So, it would be nice to hear about.
00:54:53I guess those days before my mum was a mother, too.
00:54:58You know, just her as a younger person.
00:55:06May I hug you? Is that okay?
00:55:08Perfectly. Oh, you're a beautiful girl.
00:55:10I just want you to stand next to me like mum and I.
00:55:14Oh, my goodness.
00:55:16You're a little bit taller.
00:55:18Look.
00:55:18Wow.
00:55:19That's going to the ball.
00:55:21Oh, that's a beautiful picture.
00:55:23Oh, we would have been 18.
00:55:25Wow.
00:55:26God, you like her.
00:55:26Oh, my God.
00:55:27It's so nice to see you.
00:55:29It's so nice to see you.
00:55:31So, because we buddied up and we used to just wake up at 10 to 9, put the Levi's on
00:55:36and the gym boots
00:55:36and tuck her hair in and jump the fence and go to uni.
00:55:39We had to go 9 to 5 in those days.
00:55:41It was very regimented, marked the role, you know.
00:55:44And she started skipping.
00:55:46I said, you've got to come to social studies.
00:55:48She goes, oh.
00:55:50Oh, yes.
00:55:51I love this.
00:55:52I love this because this is so neat.
00:55:54And I said, get up.
00:55:55She goes, no, no, no.
00:55:56I can't be bothered.
00:55:57I said, no, no, no.
00:55:58You'll fail.
00:55:59And she did.
00:56:01Anyway, she got through it.
00:56:02Yeah.
00:56:03She was messy.
00:56:05I'm really messy, too.
00:56:07Are you messy?
00:56:08I'm so messy.
00:56:08Show me your hands.
00:56:09I'm so undid.
00:56:10You don't get eczema?
00:56:11I do, yes.
00:56:12So did she.
00:56:13Yeah.
00:56:14And this is a recipe.
00:56:17That's Mum's writing.
00:56:18Oh, yes.
00:56:19She had such a neat writing.
00:56:21Carolyn.
00:56:22And that's rum cream pie.
00:56:23I've got a copy of that.
00:56:24You have that.
00:56:25Oh, thank you.
00:56:26You have that.
00:56:27This is my little treasure trove I've got out of.
00:56:30I'm going to veganise this recipe and make it.
00:56:34You keep all those.
00:56:36Oh, thank you.
00:56:37You know, you're more than welcome.
00:56:38It was so nice to meet you.
00:56:39Thank you so much.
00:56:40It's just been wonderful.
00:56:41It's been really lovely.
00:56:41And I really hope we can catch up again and stay in touch.
00:56:45Give me a big hug.
00:56:53I decided to get in touch with Ellen Ennue.
00:56:55Who is the man my mother fell in love with.
00:57:00Had an affair with.
00:57:01And ask some questions about my mum.
00:57:06Dear Catherine.
00:57:08The first thing I should mention regarding our relationship is that while it started as an affair,
00:57:13it developed into much more.
00:57:15Carolyn was a very special person to me.
00:57:18But not only to me, but many friends she had.
00:57:21And was and is sadly missed.
00:57:26Even after all this time.
00:57:30I had also received a letter from Claire during that time.
00:57:36She contacted me after she had heard that I'd reached out to her dad.
00:57:42And we just became really good friends.
00:57:49And such a big anchor for me.
00:57:53While we didn't have the same experience, there was so many things that were similar.
00:58:01And there was just a real understanding of our families and that town and everything that happened.
00:58:17I don't think I've ever really been around here much.
00:58:21Ah, Greenwick.
00:58:23That's, I feel like that name is in the trial.
00:58:28So this is the house where my dad and your mum were planning on being together.
00:58:36So dad bought this house thinking that you and your brothers would move in here.
00:58:43And of course your mum.
00:58:46This would have been your home.
00:58:50And yours.
00:58:51And mine.
00:58:57Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a different, a whole, like, life that could have been.
00:59:11And that being, yeah, taken away from her and from us and from all of us.
00:59:30When you said that, you used to think, where are those people who were my mother's friends?
00:59:34Why aren't they helping me?
00:59:36I just, you know, that was devastating to hear that.
00:59:39I knew your father's animosity to anyone who was from that time.
00:59:43Yeah.
00:59:44But maybe we should have gone past that, you know, maybe that's, you know, we should, I guess we were
00:59:50all looking after ourselves as well.
00:59:53And then we were afraid to.
00:59:56You know, I was scared to ask questions because I didn't know who to ask.
00:59:59And I, like, it was, it was honestly like it had never happened.
01:00:03But I just imagined that every time anywhere you went, that, you know, people would have said, oh, you know.
01:00:08Well, I'm sure they did.
01:00:09I mean, that's the thing, too.
01:00:11Growing up knowing that other people, well, not even knowing, but feeling like people were talking about you all the
01:00:17time.
01:00:17Did you?
01:00:18Yeah.
01:00:20You know, we could, oh.
01:00:23I didn't handle anything but the silence.
01:00:27Yeah.
01:00:31I hated that everyone always was so careful.
01:00:35I mean, I know it was a protective thing, but that, yeah, we, it's like I've already lived through the
01:00:41worst of it.
01:00:42This, the worst, yeah, the worst part is not speaking about it.
01:00:50So, I went back to Banksy Court, my old street that I grew up in, but I was with Helen
01:01:00and Lyndall, my two old neighbours.
01:01:05Well, how do you feel coming back, and have you been back before?
01:01:11I think I've driven past once in the last, you know, 20 years or something, but I haven't kind of
01:01:16stood here.
01:01:18Yeah.
01:01:21It's hard.
01:01:24Yeah.
01:01:26I remember it being a really dark house growing up.
01:01:29I mean, I don't know if that was my state of mind or, but the house itself felt really.
01:01:33Dark house.
01:01:33Yeah.
01:01:34Yeah.
01:01:34And the, I feel like the curtains were always closed.
01:01:38Did you notice the difference between, like, when my mum was there and after?
01:01:42Like, did it feel very different?
01:01:43I remember being here to look after your brothers, Catherine, when your dad took you as a little
01:01:48baby, and I just was sitting in the house just feeling the enormity of what had happened
01:01:54and how dark and, you know, your mum was always vibrant and there'd be snacks and lots of activity
01:02:01happening and giggling and the sense was just that huge contrast between, you know, this
01:02:09is now and here on.
01:02:10And, but I think now we get to grieve that, whereas back then we didn't, because we didn't
01:02:18know how.
01:02:28There she is.
01:02:29Oh, there she is.
01:02:34I feel really angry about the fact that it says passed away.
01:02:37I was just looking at that.
01:02:39It just makes me really mad, because he, he did this.
01:02:44She'll always be older than me.
01:02:47I'm 52 and I still look at Caroline as.
01:02:50Oh no, isn't that strange.
01:02:52She's always going to be.
01:02:53Your mum read this to you when you were a baby.
01:02:57I carry your heart with me.
01:02:59I carry it in my heart.
01:03:01I am never without it.
01:03:03Anywhere I go, you go, my dear.
01:03:06And whatever is done by only me is your doing, my darling.
01:03:10I fear no fate, for you are my fate, my sweet.
01:03:16I want no world, for beautiful you are my world, my true.
01:03:22I carry your heart.
01:03:25I carry it in my heart.
01:03:36I love you so much.
01:03:40The three of you so, so much.
01:03:57I have been having these thoughts about doing a memorial for my mum.
01:04:04Make a space for all of us to talk a bit more about her and have some ritual around it.
01:04:10I felt like I needed that, like a grief ritual.
01:04:16And, and I felt like other people did too.
01:04:23Catherine wanted to do something in Lismore, to bring together friends and family, to honour Carolyn.
01:04:30They ended up finding this outdoor cathedral, which is so beautiful and yeah, really connected.
01:04:37Catherine's kind of environmental spirituality and Carolyn's faith.
01:04:59So many people really were just waiting for me to ask, you know, like really actually wanted the opportunity to
01:05:10speak about her.
01:05:11Hi, how are you going, nice to meet you, how are you, good to see you.
01:05:17This is the first photo of Catherine's mother, so Carolyn would have been around four to five.
01:05:25Oh, that's a beautiful photo.
01:05:27Catherine did an amazing job of organising the memorial, she got all sorts of people, came together, people that I
01:05:35hadn't seen for years were there, that made it emotional because we knew why we were there.
01:05:43It was also a real time of connection and, and beauty and community.
01:05:49And it was amazing and it was so cathartic for all of us there.
01:05:55The emotion was so raw, so real, was as if it was a week after something had happened and I'll
01:06:02never forget it.
01:06:05I just wanted to welcome everyone here, probably all know it's Carolyn's birthday today and I feel like maybe if
01:06:12she were here, she would put on some spectacular dinner party, she would print out menus, her attention to detail,
01:06:18I have heard was pretty spot on.
01:06:21Carolyn, your death came before the groundswell change of public outrage at the incidents of domestic violence that blight our
01:06:29community.
01:06:30Even now, 30 years later, I find it difficult to speak without being a little bit of a lump in
01:06:35the throat.
01:06:36And today is pleasure for me as well.
01:06:39And I just am so happy and so pleased to see you, the embodiment of your mother and with the
01:06:48approach to life that I think she would be very, very proud of.
01:06:51I've been trying to put words to how I feel about my mother my whole life.
01:06:56The feeling of being part of her and her me, but also the absence of something missing.
01:07:04Happy anniversary of your birth, Carolyn Joy.
01:07:08You have lived in my heart and mind and body since the very first moment I took breath.
01:07:14And you will be there until the last.
01:07:18And in that way you have lived far longer than your 32 years.
01:07:21Let's pray to you.
01:07:33Let me pray.
01:08:11That my mother died
01:08:13as a result of family violence,
01:08:17I didn't think of it that way for so long
01:08:21because there was this idea
01:08:23that that was just an anomaly in my dad's behaviour
01:08:27instead of an actual act of family violence
01:08:32that was also a crime against us,
01:08:35or should have been.
01:08:38That was a really big shift in my thinking.
01:08:47I started working on the research project
01:08:50at Melbourne Uni
01:08:52that aims to improve support
01:08:56and better understand children and young people
01:08:58who have been bereaved by domestic homicide.
01:09:01Acting in the best interest of the child
01:09:03is seen as secondary to ensuring
01:09:05that the accused gets a fair trial,
01:09:08but also how much are they supported to have agency.
01:09:10So it's not just about having a voice,
01:09:12it's actually that that needs to change.
01:09:14Yeah, there's a bigger issue
01:09:15than probably people have realised.
01:09:17Yeah, totally.
01:09:19Bev is somebody that I interviewed
01:09:20for our research project.
01:09:23I hear a gunshot and I'm like,
01:09:27what the hell?
01:09:28And I see my mum being shot in the back.
01:09:30And how old were you at this point?
01:09:32I'm 11 at this point.
01:09:33I can't remember how many shots in total,
01:09:35but the final shot was to the head.
01:09:36But I still see that image pretty much every day.
01:09:40Yeah.
01:09:41How do we heal from this experience?
01:09:44Do we ever really heal?
01:09:45Where do we stand
01:09:46and what do we have left to do here in this space?
01:09:49Because there is a lot more...
01:09:50So much to do.
01:09:51...to be done in this space.
01:09:52And we're going to do it, Bev.
01:09:5752 women a year are dying.
01:10:00These women are mothers, grandmothers,
01:10:04someone's aunt, someone's friend.
01:10:06Where are the voices of those who are left behind?
01:10:11I think that the work that we're doing
01:10:14and what we're fighting for
01:10:15will make a difference to children and young people.
01:10:20Children are primary victims in this situation.
01:10:24Like, it's a direct crime against them as well.
01:10:28The men who commit these crimes
01:10:30are considered intelligent, charming.
01:10:33They might not fit the stereotype
01:10:34of what an abuser looks like.
01:10:36And my dad was those things.
01:10:37I don't have any relationship with him anymore.
01:10:40And I don't...
01:10:40I practice very deliberate non-forgiveness.
01:10:44I don't know my dad now.
01:10:46So I can't really speak to the person he is now.
01:10:49But the further away I get,
01:10:51the more clearly I can see
01:10:54what it's like to be in an abusive relationship.
01:10:57And that was an abusive relationship.
01:10:59So me wanting to come back to him,
01:11:02him to be proud of me and be in his favor.
01:11:04Yes, that's a child wanting that,
01:11:07but that's also somebody
01:11:09who is going through the dynamic
01:11:11of somebody else's push and pull
01:11:14and somebody else's control.
01:11:20I don't have him in my head anymore.
01:11:24So many of the depressive kind of episodes
01:11:27that I've had
01:11:29are around that stuff that I can't change,
01:11:32no matter how much therapy I do.
01:11:35And that's where activism comes into my life,
01:11:38I think.
01:11:38That's where I go,
01:11:39well, I can't just be doing inferior work.
01:11:44I feel like if you're going to live in this world,
01:11:48you have to do something.
01:11:52I love the concept of killjoys,
01:11:55or feminist killjoys specifically.
01:11:59Sarah Ahmed,
01:12:00who is an amazing thinker and writer,
01:12:04and she coined this term.
01:12:08People who are willing to sort of
01:12:11not stay quiet about injustice.
01:12:15But I have been called a killjoy,
01:12:18and I embrace that.
01:12:19I think it's a good thing.
01:12:35I'm not here now as, like, some healed human.
01:12:43It's ongoing.
01:12:46It's always kind of navigating
01:12:48my mental health and experiences and trauma.
01:12:58Being almost 40 now,
01:13:01and realizing that my mum only got to 32.
01:13:06For me, my 30s have just been
01:13:09such a huge time of understanding myself,
01:13:12and she didn't really get that time.
01:13:19I think if I could speak to my mum now,
01:13:23I would tell her I loved her,
01:13:29and let her know that
01:13:34my life is, like, so full.
01:13:44I don't just have to tolerate
01:13:47being sort of okay.
01:13:52You know, I'm actually allowed to feel good.
01:13:59I'm in a new place where I feel like
01:14:01I might actually live for a while.
01:14:03I mean, who knows?
01:14:04Who knows what will happen?
01:14:05I love you.
01:14:13I love you, too.
01:14:15I love you, too,
01:14:17and imagine yourself a big woman yourself.
01:14:22Let about rock and many people
01:14:23I love you, too.
01:14:23I love you, too,
01:14:24and I love you, too.
01:14:27I love you, too.
01:14:29I love you.
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