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00:00Hello and welcome to Catching Up With The Royals, the show that never complains but always explains.
00:05With me, Richard Coles.
00:07And me, Emily Andrews.
00:08On today's episode, we're chatting royal secret weapons and if they should be deployed in the wake of Andrew Mountbatten
00:14-Windsor's arrest.
00:15Wow, that's quite direct, isn't it, for royal commentary?
00:19What do you think?
00:20I couldn't possibly comment.
00:22But you might have some thoughts.
00:24And we'll be exploring the world of royal weddings.
00:27They wanted it to feel intimate and to feel like a country wedding.
00:30How'd you do that in Westminster Abbey?
00:33Plus, we'll be focusing on how the Middletons have reshaped royal in-law expectations and taking a look into Queen
00:40Camilla's rumoured rocky relationship with the man formerly known as Prince Andrew.
00:44He was quite resistant to her as she kind of came into the royal family formally.
00:50I discovered that Camilla wasn't coming to Eugenie's wedding.
00:59Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
01:02And welcome back, Richard.
01:03Well, welcome back to you too, Emily.
01:05I thought at the beginning of today's show, we could do a bit of a termly report.
01:10It's the end of April.
01:11We're about to go into, well, we've just started the summer term at schools.
01:15And I thought we could do a short termly review of the royals.
01:19This term has been dominated, or last term, sorry, was dominated by the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.
01:26And then the royals were very much trying to keep the show on the road.
01:30Out of 10, how do you think they've done?
01:32I think they're doing a pretty good job of a very difficult situation.
01:36But that's what they're good at, aren't they?
01:38They play a long game here, and they have lots of people around who can help them make those small
01:42but judicious decisions that are the difference between success and failure, Emily.
01:47But you would know.
01:48Well, I hope, Richard, we're both on the side of success.
01:51And we want the royal family to succeed, don't we?
01:54I mean, not just you and me.
01:55I mean, as in we, the collective.
01:57But I think most of us who kind of believe in what it means to be British and sort of,
02:02in this kind of quite geopolitically challenged time, I think the royals stand for something important.
02:08A bit of stability, that's really important, I think.
02:10Something which was there before we were or will be there after we've gone is good.
02:14And also, you know, we all live in families of some form or another, don't we?
02:18And we kind of like it when things work out for people.
02:20We all can relate to the difficult dynamics that come with that.
02:23And obviously, you know, apart from the couple of statements from the king, both before and after Andrew's arrest and
02:31that kind of briefing from the Prince and Princess of Wales before Prince William's trip to Saudi Arabia, we haven't
02:37heard anything official.
02:38What they've basically been doing is telling us by their action.
02:41What we've seen from the royal family is that they've done, not spoken.
02:46So we've seen Catherine and William out and about a lot.
02:50Business as usual or kind of doing some new things.
02:54Can I tell you what Graham says?
02:56Yeah.
02:57Now, Graham has written him saying, Richard previously said Zara and Mike Tindall could perform official duties.
03:02I can't remember saying that when I'm saying anything, which I have no objection to.
03:05What I do think would be a gross mistake is to have a royal family predominantly populated with Mr. and
03:10Mrs. Ms. Windsors.
03:11If that happens, we may as well be a republic.
03:13Heaven forbid!
03:15Titles go hand in hand with monarchy and should be preserved.
03:19Do you think if you're going to do that job, you do need to have the distinction of Prince, Princess,
03:25Duke, Duchess, whatever it might be?
03:26I think if you're a working royal, you definitely need the titles.
03:29Because I think there has been a lot of issues with people not representing the royal family, not being a
03:37working royal, not doing it with the King and Queen in America.
03:40That was obviously clearly doing their job.
03:42If you have a royal title, for instance, Beatrice and Eugenie, the princesses, they have never been working royals, but
03:50it's confusing because they're called princess.
03:52If you are not British, if you're American, for instance, you may still think that Harry and Meghan, as the
04:00Duke of Duchess of Sussex, or as he is Prince Harry, is still a working royal and represents the British
04:06royal family.
04:07It is a symbolic marker, isn't it, that title?
04:10And so I can see, for instance, King William V taking away Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet's title, because it's
04:19confusing.
04:20And actually, I would suggest that actually, it's much better to not have a title.
04:26You still, everyone knows who you are.
04:27Everyone knows what family, that you're the member of the most famous family in the world.
04:31But you don't, you don't, you can therefore duck any accusations of cashing in on your title, because you don't
04:37have them.
04:37I don't think that they, as working royal, it's like pararoils in a way.
04:43Yeah, I quite like this.
04:44Because they're members of the family, but they have their own distinction, right?
04:46They've both made their names for themselves in their own fields.
04:49So they maybe would bring something that could, I don't know, add rather than subtract.
04:55I don't know.
04:55In all seriousness, does the monarchy, does the institution need to come up with a name for the non-working
05:03royals, like pararoils, or something like that, to advertise this distinction?
05:11Because, I mean, you know, going back to the Andrew scandal, we've seen increasingly, over the last 11 years, Buckingham
05:18Palace is increasingly trying to sort of amputate him from the royal family.
05:22And it's hard, right? Because as a courtier once said to me, you can't divorce your brother.
05:26No.
05:26The Queen can divorce her son.
05:28But you've had to have this increasingly kind of distinction between the public and the private.
05:34Do you think there is a case, then, that you would maybe ask Mike and Zara Tindall to sort of
05:39step up in some slightly less formal way to try and do, restore a bit of reputation, if that reputation's
05:45had a dent?
05:46I think it depends on personality, doesn't it?
05:49Mike and Zara, I think, are good eggs.
05:51I think it also helps that they have been very successful in their own sphere.
05:56So they're both very sporty, you know, got to the pinnacle of their respective sports.
06:00And even to get to, you know, a low standard in sport is incredibly impressive.
06:05They got to the very top.
06:07Mike, you know, the World Cup winning member of the England rugby team.
06:11Zara, a multi gold medal winner in equestrianism.
06:16Many Olympic medals, like her mum.
06:18And so even before you get to the kind of the royal bit, they're incredibly impressive in their own sphere,
06:24which I think helps, maybe helps us, hoi polloi, to admire them.
06:32And when they make money, and they do, are we really suggesting that Zara gets all those, you know, huge
06:38brand deals just because she's won all these medals for horse riding?
06:44Because there are equally good horse, you know, questions who don't get these kinds of brand deals.
06:49She gets them because she's a member of the royal family.
06:51But I think we, well, certainly I, I don't know about you, Richard, I definitely forgive her for that because
06:56she keeps her mouth shut.
06:57She never gives interviews about the royal family.
07:00And I'm like, yeah, go, girl.
07:01What do you think?
07:02I don't think you've ever been a member of the royal family particularly because she doesn't have the, I think
07:05it's smart.
07:06I mean, I wonder that if you could, if you had a choice, as indeed some members of the royal
07:10family have had, about whether you would be a prince or a princess or not, the smart money would say
07:16not, I think.
07:17You're absolutely right. And actually, that's how, that has actually happened with Sophie and Edward's children.
07:22Right.
07:22So Louise and James, while they were young and the late queen was still alive as the grandchildren of a
07:30monarch through the male line, that's why Zara and Peter would never be prince and princess.
07:35But because Edward was the son of the queen and they were the grandchildren through the male line, they could
07:40have been Princess Louise and Prince James.
07:42Both of them chose not to become princess or prince.
07:48And Peter Phillips, he sometimes, I remember he was in a bit of hot water because he did some adverts
07:53in China about drinking milk the royal way.
07:56But I mean, he's...
07:57What's the royal way?
07:58I don't know, but it was in Mandarin.
08:00So I, but I just remember the rather cheesy picture that went alongside it.
08:04But, you know, there are, I think, I think there are many benefits to being a member of the family.
08:09Princess Margaret's daughter, for example, Lady Sarah Chatter.
08:14I mean, she, not now, but she often used to be on the balcony, her and her husband and her
08:18kids.
08:20And indeed, her brother, Vicat Nalini, as was.
08:23I think there are definitely benefits to being a member of the family, but not, but not having titles because
08:30you still have all those connections.
08:32Do you know her friend, and she's a countess, and she used to have it on her credit card, but
08:36she had it taken off in the end because everyone thought that it was a pub and she was the
08:39landlady.
08:41That's brilliant!
08:42Well, doesn't that tell you how society's changed?
08:44Yeah, it doesn't mean anything to people anymore.
08:46No.
08:47And so now everyone wants to be kind of down with the kids and not use your title.
08:51I think it's probably a healthier society in a way.
08:54I think so.
08:55Shall we have a little break?
08:56Don't forget, if you're watching us on YouTube, to like, follow, and subscribe.
09:01And if you've got any questions for us, you can always email us at royals at spirit-studios.com.
09:08Quick question.
09:10Where did Prince William propose to Catherine Middleton?
09:14We'll be back after this.
09:21Welcome back.
09:22Before the break, we asked, do you know where Prince William proposed to Catherine Middleton?
09:27And I suspect quite a few of you know the answer to that question.
09:30Do you, Richard?
09:31On one knee.
09:34Very good.
09:35I don't know, actually.
09:36Oh, really?
09:37No.
09:37Let me tell you.
09:38Let me elucidate you.
09:39It was in Kenya on the 20th of October, 2010.
09:44They'd gone on a private holiday.
09:46Actually, they'd gone on a holiday to Kenya with friends, but William had prepped in advance.
09:51He had asked Harry if he could use Diana's engagement ring, big blue, sapphire, and he'd taken it.
09:58But he'd just taken it in this, literally, in his rucksack.
10:01I mean, I really hope he put it in his hand luggage on the plane.
10:04They had the holiday with friends, and then he and Kate left for a private holiday,
10:09just the two of them, and they went to a remote log cabin near Lake Rotundu on the slopes of
10:14Mount Kenya.
10:14And there, there was no mobile phone signal in the middle of nowhere.
10:18It was just the two of them in this log cabin, and they actually even had to hike with their
10:21own food and drink.
10:24And there he proposed.
10:26I wonder if she knew it was coming.
10:29I think you should know.
10:30I think spontaneity is best well rehearsed, don't you?
10:34I think she generally knew it was coming, but didn't specifically.
10:41And what's brilliant is that an ex-colleague of mine from The Sun went out there and found the visitor's
10:46book.
10:46So there's a visitor's book for this log cabin.
10:48It is in the middle of nowhere, and you, but obviously the kind of, the conservancy where they,
10:54well, it's, you can go there as a tourist, and so they sort of prepare it for you.
10:58But the whole point is you have complete solitude.
11:00I think they were there for a couple of nights on their own.
11:02And in the guest book, it just said, we had a lovely time.
11:06William, Catherine.
11:08Lovely time.
11:08Do you think she said yes first time?
11:11I don't think you would get to a situation where someone's going to ask that question without you having thought
11:15it through, right?
11:16Because you're not just marrying a person, you're marrying into a dynasty.
11:19And let's do a report card on them.
11:2215 years this week.
11:24Has it been a success?
11:26Well, it looks like it, doesn't it?
11:27I mean, in an era when even committing to lunch seems to be too much for some people.
11:31To commit to each other for 15 years, particularly in the life they lead, is pretty incredible, isn't it?
11:36I think so.
11:38I think there was obviously huge pressure and expectation on both of them.
11:45Him, because the huge pressure to get it right, in inverted commas, because he'd seen what had happened with his
11:51parents' marriage.
11:52But he had also talked about it.
11:55I mean, he'd said they didn't want to get married before he was 30.
11:58Famously, infamously, he had dumped Kate.
12:01They'd split up, I think, after the university.
12:03That's an unmusical word, isn't it?
12:04Sorry, dumped is a bit strong.
12:06Didn't they seek sort of fresh pastures for a while or something?
12:10I don't know.
12:10Look, they met at St Andrew's University.
12:12Well, actually.
12:13Like young people everywhere.
12:14Yeah, they didn't meet.
12:15They didn't meet at St Andrew's.
12:16They actually met before that, because she was at Marlborough, he was at Eton.
12:19They kind of moved in the same circles.
12:20I don't think there was much, like, maybe high, recognised each other.
12:24They go to St Andrew's.
12:25They both started doing history of art, and then actually he was going to leave St Andrew's.
12:28But she convinced him to stay, and he switched to geography.
12:32It would be a bit unfair if you remember the Royal Family doing history of art, because you've got all
12:35your homework at home, haven't you?
12:37You've got the Royal Collection.
12:38Well, maybe that's why he felt that he should start off studying history of art.
12:41But, I mean, sorry, William, I think you were brilliant.
12:44But whenever I've seen him up close and personal, he's never been particularly curious about art.
12:48So, for me, it was always a bit of a slight weird choice of his to study history of art.
12:55But, yes.
12:55I can't believe that that wedding was 15 years ago.
12:58It feels like last week.
12:59I know.
13:00You were there.
13:01I was there, 29th of April.
13:05It was very chilly.
13:06Was it?
13:07Yes, it was.
13:08I remember having to get there very early in the morning, because the whole of London was kind of locked
13:11down.
13:12And I was there at, like, five in the morning.
13:14And, fortunately, the tubes were running early in London.
13:17You went on the tube.
13:18I went on the tube.
13:19You didn't send a golden carriage for you.
13:21Not for me, darling.
13:22I worked for the Daily Mail.
13:23Daily Mail, there's golden carriages for everyone at the Daily Mail.
13:27Only for the C-suite.
13:28But it was cold and grey.
13:32But everybody was really, really happy.
13:35People had slept out.
13:35Some, you know, the Royal Superfans had slept out for two nights in a row to get there.
13:40Kind of prepped for the week beforehand.
13:43The streets, the abbey, you know, the mall, the fences to keep everybody back.
13:51How many people were in the abbey?
13:54There were 1,900 guests in the abbey.
13:56Blimey, that's loads.
13:57Yeah, it is.
13:58And you know what?
13:59I remember Catherine and William, they accepted that it was going to be a monumental occasion.
14:09But to their friends and family, they wanted it, and for them, they wanted it to feel intimate
14:13and to feel like a country wedding, you know, like...
14:16How did you do that in Westminster Abbey?
14:18Well, I think they did a good job, actually.
14:20First of all, Catherine, so we know that she loves nature.
14:24That's always been, you know, we've learnt a lot more about that recently.
14:27Over the last couple of years with her cancer diagnosis and those videos she made on the seasons.
14:31But she's always been into getting outside the fresh air, sport, etc.
14:35She filled Westminster Abbey with trees, six English field maples and two hornbeams down the nave.
14:44So that it felt like she was walking through a forest.
14:47That's nice.
14:48And she approached the altar.
14:49And what's nice, actually, is that those trees were planted in Windsor Great Park afterwards.
14:54So they weren't thrown away?
14:55They weren't trashed?
14:56No, because they were full height.
14:58I mean, I don't know how they got them in.
14:59It must have been a logistical nightmare.
15:00But here's my question.
15:01In a do like that, I mean, when you have the Middletons on one side and, you know, bride's side,
15:05groom's side and everything.
15:07Presumably the groom's side would take up a little bit more room because you've got all those heads of state
15:10and everything.
15:11But then who didn't get invited?
15:13I mean, do the Middletons sort of aunties and uncles get invited?
15:16How, in other words, what depth of Middleton representation was there on that guest list?
15:21That is a great question.
15:23The Middletons had a lot of people on the guest list.
15:27They had their favourite barman from Mystique, Basil, from Basil's Bar.
15:31They had the couple who ran, I think, the local post office in Bucklebury that Carolyn Mike knew really well
15:37and presumably knew Kate when she was growing up.
15:39They had some of Kate's old teachers from Marlborough.
15:42So actually, lots.
15:45But the reason for that, Richard, was one William Wales.
15:51You know, royal weddings are massive PR gold for the monkey.
15:57You have to invite prime ministers and people like that.
15:59You have to invite all the realm prime ministers.
16:01So like 14 other prime ministers as well as, you know, the current PM, previous PMs.
16:07Anyway, this guest list was drawn up, presumably by Buckingham Palace and the cabinet office in tandem because they work,
16:12you know, hand in glove on state occasions like this.
16:15And then it was sent to William and he then asked to go and see the Queen, his grandmother.
16:21I think Courtney's must have been a bit nervous because apparently he didn't say why or what.
16:24But obviously, you know, wedding planning.
16:26This was, I think, early in 2011 before the invitations went out.
16:30And he just said, Granny, I don't know half these people.
16:33What is this?
16:35And Granny said, fine, rip it up, start again.
16:39Yes, she said, it's your wedding and you must feel comfortable with who's on the guest list.
16:45There are some non-negotiables, but we'll keep those to as small a number as possible.
16:51Which meant that the couple from the post office in Buckingham Palace were allowed to be there.
16:55It meant that I think, I mean, it probably was like maybe 60% like Williamside and 40% Middletons,
17:02but pretty much everybody the Middletons want to invite could.
17:05And I think that that was really key in setting the scene and the narrative for welcoming not just Catherine
17:14into the royal family, but her family too.
17:16I'm glad you bring up her family because I think it's all a bit of a blur for me, but
17:20I do remember her sister's bottom, which got a lot of comment, didn't it?
17:24Well, I mean, and also, if it's not too indelicate for me to say, Richard, I mean, you would not
17:30normally notice a lady's bottom.
17:32Not especially.
17:33It did really quite grasp the public consciousness, didn't it?
17:37It did, didn't it?
17:38It's a detail that I remember.
17:39The other one, I think, was the verger doing a handstand.
17:42Oh, the cartwheels, the cartwheels down the aisle.
17:44Yeah, the cartwheels, that's right.
17:45After the wedding had finished.
17:46Well, no, Pippa did really steal the show because she had quite a silky dress on.
17:52It was quite a bosh from hugging.
17:53Dress was Catherine's was more, much more kind of formal.
17:56Bridey, bridey.
17:57It was bridey, bridey.
17:58But this is my question.
18:00We know, you know, that nothing is unrehearsed or unthought through, right?
18:05So the dress is carefully thought through, all right?
18:07Lovely things about the dress, as I recall.
18:10Did we get old, new, borrowed and blue?
18:12I can't remember.
18:12We did, so, and I remember it was the English School of Needlework.
18:17Oh, yeah, they're very good.
18:18Who did, who are amazing and have been in existence for hundreds of years.
18:22They washed their hands every 20 minutes to make sure that the hand-stitched lace flowers
18:29that represented the four union countries, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland,
18:33were completely pristine, that were covered, the bodice and the skirt.
18:39Sarah Burton, wasn't it?
18:40It was Sarah Burton.
18:41For McQueen, it was.
18:43She had her something blue, was a blue ribbon sewn into the interior of the dress.
18:49Her something old was the Carrick McCross stitching technique.
18:55Belfast lace.
18:56Yes, well done, absolutely.
18:59And her something new was her diamond earrings that her parents bought her
19:04that had an oak leaf and an acorn, which mirrored the Middleton,
19:09the new Middleton coat of arms, which had three acorns to symbolise James, Philippa, Pippa and Catherine Middleton.
19:17Can you guess, Richard, what Catherine borrowed?
19:20What was her something borrowed?
19:21Must have been a tiara.
19:22It certainly was.
19:23It was the Cartier halo, which hadn't been seen for some time, but I think it suited her perfectly.
19:28It wasn't a massive tiara, because now she wears the love's knot a lot to all the sort of, you
19:32know, state banquets.
19:34We don't see the Cartier halo as much, but I thought it was a great choice because it was quite
19:39delicate.
19:39Yeah, I think if you're a bride, you don't want to go overboard with the tiara, do you?
19:43No.
19:43Not really.
19:44It's not a massive one.
19:45I can tell you something.
19:47Tell me a secret.
19:48Tell me a secret of a royal wedding.
19:49It's not a secret, but insider information, this, is that every royal wedding, the bride's bouquet,
19:54has a sprig of myrtle, which comes from the myrtle Osborne House on the Isle of Wight,
19:59where Victoria and Albert used to hang out.
20:02It's rather romantic.
20:03Did you know that?
20:04No, that's rather romantic.
20:05Do you think myrtle's a nice name?
20:06I think it's lovely.
20:07You don't get a myrtle now, do you?
20:08Not only a moaning myrtle, Harry Potter.
20:11Yeah.
20:12But you must know lots of insider info about royal weddings.
20:15Well, it was joyous covering Kate and William's wedding.
20:21I remember when they came out in Charles's vintage Aston Martin that had been decorated by Harry.
20:29But actually, obviously there was a lot of hanging around.
20:32We're hanging around outside Buckingham Palace where the wedding breakfast, the dinner was.
20:37So they had a, they had a sort of a lunch reception for all those, you know, all the sort
20:42of guest list people, the primers of the realms.
20:44But then the evening do where they all got changed into black tie was the party.
20:48And I remember hearing the singing from inside Buckingham Palace.
20:53Everyone's singing along to Ellie Goulding, who had come to perform.
20:57And the fireworks were amazing.
21:02And everybody just seemed really, really happy.
21:05Good.
21:05A national celebration.
21:07A national celebration.
21:08And another actual secret of Kate and William's wedding.
21:10I'm not sure if it necessarily wouldn't be picked up on at the time.
21:14Happy, happy, happy.
21:15But on the way with her father to the Abbey, and then on the way back in the carriage with
21:20William, both she and Mike and then she and William bowed their head as they passed the cenotaph.
21:27Which, even on their most happy day, still paying, still doing their duty, still paying honour to the war dead.
21:34And leaving the bouquet at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
21:37Yes.
21:37Well, the royal florist always makes sure, whoever's doing the flowers for any royal wedding, makes sure there's at least
21:43three bouquets.
21:45Because you need one to take with you into the cathedral or the Abbey.
21:50You need one for the photographs.
21:52And you need a spare one, just in case you lose either of the two above.
21:56And then the bride...
21:57How could you lose a royal bouquet on a wedding day?
21:59It does happen, though, doesn't it?
22:00It does happen.
22:01Queen Elizabeth lost her bouquet, I think.
22:03Do you think someone nicked it?
22:04I don't know.
22:04Maybe a horse ate it.
22:05I mean, she probably wouldn't have minded.
22:07She probably wouldn't have minded if that had happened.
22:09I wonder if there is lots of...
22:11You'd keep the slice of wedding cake, wouldn't you?
22:14Oh, people do.
22:14That's another thing that happens.
22:16A bouquet tradition, the Queen Mother sent her bouquet to the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior at Westminster Abbey.
22:21And that tradition still happens.
22:22But yes, what happens with the royal wedding cake is that obviously these cakes are massive.
22:27And then they all get cut up into tiny, tiny bits.
22:29They get put in these posh little boxes.
22:31And then literally every member of staff at Buckingham Palace, Windsor, you know, Osborne House, Sandringham, Balmoral get sent a
22:38piece of the cake.
22:38Do they?
22:39I bet they're on eBay in about five minutes, aren't they?
22:41Some of them do get put on eBay.
22:43In fact, I'm sure we could probably.
22:45Should we try and buy a bit of the Queen's wedding cake?
22:47Well, time for a break.
22:50But before we do break, question, right?
22:52We're going to talk about the Middletons next.
22:55But do you know where Catherine's parents met?
23:00Back after the break.
23:06Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
23:08Now, if you want to catch up with us, Catching Up With The Royals, you can do that by finding
23:12us on the television on Five.
23:14You can find us on YouTube, wherever you get that from.
23:18Try Thursday.
23:19That seems to be a good time to have a go.
23:22And if you do, like and subscribe and leave us a glowing review.
23:27We'd be very grateful for that, too.
23:28Yes, please.
23:29Well, I can tell you where Mike and Carol met.
23:31They met at Heathrow Airport because she, as everybody knows, was what is unflatteringly called a trolley dolly or a
23:37flight attendant, I should say.
23:38And Mike used to dispatch aircraft.
23:41And that's where they met.
23:42Little did they know that before long, the flight path would be directly to Windsor Castle.
23:47Oh, and then Buckingham Palace.
23:49You know, there was a lot of snobbery, actually, when Kate and William first started going out.
23:54Because initially, when they were at university, I'm sure some people were quite jealous, wanting to date William, jealous of
23:59Kate.
24:00And then, obviously, the relationship matured and it became very serious.
24:04And she was potentially going to, you know, be the one to become the future Princess of Wales.
24:09Some of William's friends, who, I mean, it's just really rather public school boorishness, isn't it?
24:14Apparently, he used to say doors to manual because her mum was a flight attendant for British Airways, I think.
24:21And, you know, look, Carol is unashamedly working class, was working class.
24:27She's now, I'd say, you know, upper middle class because Mike came from a solidly middle class background.
24:31But I think the Middletons are the best thing that has happened to the royal family.
24:35I think also one of the worst things you could possibly do is be snooty about somebody that kind of
24:40way.
24:40It just makes you look awful.
24:41And also, who cares?
24:43She has worked so hard.
24:45So what?
24:46If it's true, which, you know, no one's ever going to admit to, that she's a bit of a social
24:52climber.
24:52And, I mean, I was told that when Kate was in Chile in South America, she was going to go
24:58to Edinburgh, Kate.
24:59And it was Carol who changed the UCAS form on Kate's year off to put down St Andrews.
25:06Because by that point, it was known that William was going to go there.
25:09Even if that was done as a, you know, like, she could never in her wildest dreams have imagined that
25:15her eldest daughter was going to become queen.
25:18That's the kind of thing Queen Victoria would have done, you know, a hundred and how many years ago.
25:23It doesn't happen that way.
25:24Oh, it's such a sort of stereotypical wicked mother-in-law joke, isn't it?
25:28And I think you're absolutely right.
25:29Don't be so snobbish because she literally, she and her brother Gary, you know, worked really, really hard, grew up
25:35in the East End, had a huge work ethic.
25:37You know, she was the brains behind Party Pieces, which were her and, when her and Mike left British Airways.
25:44It was their business, right?
25:45That was their business, exactly.
25:47Selling online party goods.
25:48You know, Carol was the brains and drive behind all of that.
25:52When I kind of take a step back and I look at how Kate and now Catherine and William position
25:59themselves, you know, let's make no mistake, Richard,
26:02there is obviously a huge amount of PR people around them who are carefully creating their kind of public image.
26:08But as we have seen perhaps with other members of the royal family, that image creation means for nothing if
26:17it's not authentic.
26:18And I think that Kate and William are very authentic because of partly because of the, well, large part because
26:23of the Middletons.
26:25Family always came first.
26:28You know, there's stories of Mike dressing up every Christmas as a sumo wrestler just to like, you know, delight
26:33the kids.
26:33I remember talking, interviewing Kate's cousin once and she said that they spent loads of family holidays together,
26:40lots of family Sunday lunches, all the family used to meet up a huge amount.
26:44Family was really, Goldsmith, it was Carol Goldsmith before she was Middleton.
26:47You know, it was really, really important.
26:50And that shines through, I think, with Kate, Pippa and James, who've all now got their own families.
26:56They all still go on holiday together.
26:57That tight family unit was something that William really liked.
27:01It's an interesting thing, isn't it?
27:02I mean, the suggestion would be that if they were middle class and they wouldn't be able to,
27:06you couldn't rely on them to be discreet or to be sure-footed.
27:10But actually, it's the other royals who've behaved terribly, isn't it?
27:13They haven't put a foot wrong.
27:14No, you're absolutely right.
27:16I mean, Carol, I think it's in one interview some years ago with the Daily Telegraph.
27:20The interviewer actually wrote how nervous she was.
27:23I mean, I think it helped paint the picture, didn't it?
27:25But by dint of the fact that apart from when Kate and William's engagement was announced
27:31and they did that sort of in the misty autumnal air,
27:34they came to their front gate and they did a little sort of statement to the camera saying how pleased
27:38they were
27:39and you could tell both of them were very nervous.
27:40They have never spoken out, even when things have gone personally wrong for them.
27:46I mean, their business party pieces, which was, you know, really kind of took off at the front of the
27:51internet.
27:51But this was before Amazon.
27:53Other internet providers are available.
27:56But then obviously, as technology and commerce improved and increased,
28:03their business model came under huge pressure and it collapsed in the end.
28:08And it collapsed owing money and people were left out of work.
28:14And there was a bit of a campaign, I think, locally in Bucklebury.
28:16People were putting up rather nasty posters and sort of saying,
28:19well, it's all right for you, you know, lord of the manor, you know, in-laws of the royals.
28:24What about us?
28:25And it must have been very difficult for them and they never said anything.
28:29Yeah, that's the way to do it.
28:30I always wonder again, imagine that bit where I suppose there was a day
28:33when they had to go meet the queen, the old queen.
28:37You know, you're marrying into this institution.
28:39And all of a sudden that means you've got to go along and all of a sudden you're in palaces
28:41and there are red or scarlet-coated footmen around and aquaries and all that kind of thing.
28:46It must be weird.
28:47Yeah, and they only met the queen, Queen Elizabeth, a couple of days before the wedding.
28:53Really?
28:53Yeah, and you would have, I mean, you're meeting your...
28:55I want you to meet my nan.
28:57Nan.
28:57You didn't say that.
28:57Yeah, you're meeting my nan.
28:59And normally you'd meet the nan at least a couple of days before the wedding, surely.
29:03I'm quite surprised to hear that.
29:05Yeah, you'd think so.
29:06The impression has always been that William did not want to make the mistakes of his parents.
29:10So he, I think we all kind of, us journos, kind of knew it was on when there were pictures,
29:17I think, in the, they got engaged in the November time, October.
29:23They got, very much October.
29:24It was announced publicly in the November because Kate's grandpa died.
29:28So they delayed the announcement and the news held.
29:32The news, it didn't break.
29:33So three weeks, four weeks after they got engaged.
29:36There was...
29:36Hot story.
29:37Yeah, no one knew.
29:38So that, again, showed the trust of the Middletons, the loyalty of the Middletons.
29:41But that summer, I think in the August or the September, William invited Carol and Mike to shoot up at
29:49Balmoral.
29:49And a rather entrepreneurising photographer got pictures of that.
29:53So the fact that Carol and Mike had been invited to a royal residence, fine, the queen might not have
29:58been there,
29:59really showed that things were moving.
30:01And subsequently, you know, you've had the queen pictures of the late, of Nan.
30:05You've had pictures of Nana driving around Carol Middleton in the rain, in the Land Rover in Scotland.
30:10And of course, there were those amazing pictures of Carol Middleton at Cheltenham.
30:15I think it might even have been on Ladies Day this year with the queen, Queen Camilla and Princess Anne.
30:21And Richard, there were some pictures.
30:24I didn't see any moving pictures of it.
30:25The pictures of Carol grasping Princess Anne's arm, as if it looked like they both won a whole load of
30:31money.
30:32And I thought, blimey.
30:34I mean, that wouldn't happen if they didn't genuinely get on, I guess.
30:38I mean, this is Princess Anne.
30:39When he's spoken about them, I got the impression that he kind of liked being part of a normal family,
30:45that he rather enjoyed their life together and being part of that because his own was so disrupted, I guess.
30:51Yeah.
30:51He probably found a lot of solace, I think.
30:56It must have been very difficult for Mike and Carol to know quite how to treat him.
31:01And I'm told that they took a decision just to treat him just like any other friend of James, Pippa
31:09and Catherine's.
31:10I mean, obviously, they sent their three children to posh school.
31:14They all went to Marlborough.
31:15So it is, I mean, and that's, I expect that George, Charlotte and Louis will also go to Marlborough.
31:20It is one of the top posh schools in the UK.
31:24So it meant that the three Middleton children were mixing in the same circles as, you know, members of the
31:32aristocracy, William and Harry.
31:33Not everyone.
31:35You know, your daughter brings home the boyfriend and he's got security guards.
31:39That's kind of unusual, isn't it?
31:41It's quite tricky, isn't it?
31:42Where do you put them?
31:43Is it like a port-a-cabin or something?
31:45Yeah, you put them at the end of the drive.
31:46Or if you don't have, or maybe the dog kennel?
31:49I could quite see that you'd want to keep it as normal as possible.
31:52But you do have, you know, issues around security and that kind of thing.
31:54It's the heir to the heir to the throne, as it was then.
31:58I mean, is there someone at the palace who coordinates that stuff?
32:01Well, before Kate got engaged to William, she had no real protection, both kind of metaphorically or actually.
32:11And I think at the time, William had to, there was a lot of paparazzi attention on her and indeed
32:17on her family.
32:17And they had to kind of navigate that themselves.
32:20William, in the end, when they got engaged, she then did have police protection officers.
32:26But obviously, Carol and Mike didn't.
32:29They had to kind of navigate that, especially the press attention.
32:32And you're right, the security risk.
32:33Because after William and Kate got married, they moved from their old address in Bucklebury, which was a bit more
32:43kind of smaller and a bit more.
32:45On the street.
32:46Yeah.
32:47To Bucklebury Manor.
32:48And that was much more private.
32:50It had outbuildings for the PPO's.
32:54The security, yeah.
32:54Securities they were able to.
32:55And there's some suggestion that William helped in that purchase.
32:59I don't know if that's true or not, but that was the suggestion at the time.
33:02Because he, and I guess for him, he didn't just feel a responsibility to his fiancée wife.
33:09He also felt responsibility to her family as well.
33:12Colleen Rooney told me that.
33:13When she started dating Wayne, she was at school.
33:16She was a teenager.
33:17And literally, paparazzi were jumping out in front of her.
33:19She was a school kid on her way to school.
33:21And just perhaps kept jumping out and taking a picture.
33:23No preparation for that at all.
33:25You have to learn fast if you're going to survive, right?
33:27Did she say how she felt about that?
33:30Terrified.
33:31Yeah.
33:32Did she ever think, is this worth it?
33:35Yeah.
33:36Well, I think she just was always very loyal and devoted to Wayne.
33:39And so it came with the territory.
33:40And she'd work it out.
33:41And indeed, she has.
33:42What do you think?
33:43Do you think that the Middletons are the best thing that's happened to the Crown in the last 20 years?
33:48Or maybe you think William should have married a member of the aristocracy?
33:53Please do comment.
33:54And before we go to the break, a question for you and for you, Richard.
33:59I love the questions.
34:00It's a drinks-related, it's an alcohol-related question.
34:04Good for you and I, I think.
34:06The late Queen's go-to drink order was a gin and doubonnet.
34:10Yeah.
34:11But do you know what Queen Camilla's tipple of choice is?
34:16Oh, no, I don't.
34:17Have a think.
34:18We'll be back after this.
34:23Welcome back.
34:24Before the break, we asked, do you know, in the plethora of her drinks cabinet, what Queen Camilla would choose?
34:32What do you reckon, Richard?
34:34I've no idea.
34:35I mean, I look at her and I think gin, but I'm not sure why I think that.
34:40Is it gin?
34:41No, it's not gin.
34:42What is it?
34:43But I think she enjoys a gin.
34:45She enjoys a gin and tea.
34:46It's actually a glass of red wine.
34:47She's very knowledgeable about wine.
34:49And her father, Major Bruchand, worked in the wine industry.
34:56And she's also the president of the UK Vineyard Association.
34:59Oh, I didn't know that.
35:00UK wines do very well at the moment.
35:02Your favourite tipple, what would it be?
35:04Oh, I like a Speyside single malt.
35:08That's my favourite.
35:09Although I'm prepared to go for some Heine malts.
35:11I'm a barbarian, though, because I actually like it with one lump of ice, but only one lump of ice.
35:16But apparently that's bad.
35:17Oh, really?
35:17Yeah.
35:17I only have one.
35:18Well, apparently you shouldn't because it makes it tight.
35:21Oh.
35:21But I just like that little chink of a one ice cube in my generous slug of a Speyside single
35:28malt.
35:28That's mine.
35:29I like a red wine as well, I must say.
35:31And if I could only have one drink, I'd probably have a red wine.
35:35A very, very fine claret.
35:37Ah, Bordeaux.
35:39Yeah, probably.
35:40A lot of guys aged like us.
35:42Yeah.
35:42I think you just improve with age, you know, Richard.
35:44I really don't.
35:45You do?
35:46But thank you, it's kind to say, no, no, honestly, I don't.
35:48Are you feeling it?
35:49A bit, yeah.
35:50Okay.
35:51Well, shall I tell you who else?
35:52Or should we talk about another slightly tricky relationship?
35:55Let's do it.
35:55The royal news that's dominated this year so far, obviously, has been Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, the fall of the House
36:03of York.
36:04We have spoken quite a bit about the king's reaction, about Prince William's reaction to events.
36:10It's one person we haven't really thought about, and that's Queen Camilla.
36:13Yes.
36:14I read something a while ago which suggested that he was quite resistant to her as she kind of came
36:21into the royal family formally.
36:23So, I think this actually stems back to Charles and Diana and Andrew and Fergie, as ever in these things,
36:30you know, ups and downs, aren't there?
36:31But what I thought was very interesting was that when the first of the York sisters got married, Eugenie, I
36:39discovered that Camilla wasn't coming to Eugenie's wedding.
36:43This was in 2018, so we'd had Harry and Meghan's big wedding in May, and then Eugenie and Jack were
36:48getting married in September.
36:49And equally, I mean, Andrew wanted it to be an equally big wedding, so this was a big deal, Richard,
36:53for the Duchess of Cornwall, Charles' wife, to not come.
36:59And I remember phoning Clarence House and speaking to Charles' press secretary and saying,
37:05I hear that the Duchess of Cornwall is not coming to Eugenie's wedding.
37:09And he tried to fob me off with this ridiculous story that she had a pre-existing engagement, and that
37:17was why she couldn't come.
37:19So I think that probably tells you maybe that Camilla was perhaps slightly flexing her royal muscle.
37:31Charles went, she didn't go to Eugenie's wedding.
37:33I don't think she's got any animus against Eugenie.
37:36And of course, Beatrice got married during lockdown, so it was a very, very small wedding.
37:40Anyway, but I think what has made things very problematic, I'm told by those close to the Queen,
37:47that what has been very problematic for the Queen is that she has always, since she's been, you know,
37:52since she's married Charles, one of her charity campaigns has been sexual violence against women.
37:58She has spoken out about being, you know, sexually assaulted on a train herself.
38:03She recently met, you know, Giselle Pellicot, you know, the French multiple rape survivor,
38:10and who's been incredibly impressive on women's rights and in that high profile trial in France.
38:18And so it's been very, very difficult for the Queen to campaign on things that she feels very, very strongly
38:25about
38:25when her brother-in-law has effectively been accused as being a perpetrator.
38:31And I thought it was very, of course, Andrew denies any wrongdoing.
38:35He denies any allegations against him.
38:38But on International Women's Day earlier in the year, she made a speech, obviously this was after Andrew's arrest,
38:45and she said to every survivor of every kind of violence, many of whom have not been able to tell
38:51their stories
38:52or who have not been believed, please know you are not alone.
38:56We stand with you and alongside you today and every day in solidarity, sorrow and sympathy.
39:03And can I just say, Richard, that my phone glowed red hot on that day with messages from Buckingham Palace
39:11highlighting her speech.
39:14I got emails. I got WhatsApps. I got another. And then when we asked...
39:20May we just draw your attention, Emily, to this comment?
39:23Yes. Emily, please talk about this. Please talk about what the Queen's doing at Clarence House for International Women's Day.
39:28And when Buckingham Palace was asked whether this referenced Andrew and Geoffrey Epstein,
39:35the comment came back, I think the Queen's speech speaks for itself.
39:40Wow. That's quite direct, isn't it, for royal commentary?
39:43What do you think?
39:44I couldn't possibly comment.
39:46Of course, you've met Camilla. She's a great laugh.
39:49I like her, yeah.
39:49And she really supports Charles.
39:51I wasn't met her. I was kind of there when people were being met.
39:54That counts. That counts.
39:55But no, no, I liked her a lot. And I know she was very, I know people who know her
39:59find her very amusing and warm and also kind of smart and sensible.
40:03I really like her. And she makes the King very, very happy. And he is prone to a bit of
40:09melancholy. And he's prone to a bit of sort of introspection and sometimes self-doubt.
40:12And I think she's quite a kind of jolly, uncomplicated, confident individual.
40:18I do have a problem with her.
40:19Oh.
40:20No dachshunds. It's always with the Jack Russells with her, isn't it?
40:23Have you suddenly changed? Are you now into all the dachshunds as opposed to corgis?
40:28I've always been dachshunds, actually.
40:29Oh, have you?
40:29Yeah, the corgi was a step out of the mainstream dog theme of my life.
40:34Oh.
40:35Yeah. But then, you see, you got me onto it with dorgies.
40:38You see, if you cross a corgi with a dachshund, then it comes, I'm back in sausage country.
40:41Would you get a dorgie?
40:42I'd love a dorgie.
40:43Oh, that'd be amazing. You need to get a dorgie.
40:45But should we go back to Camilla very briefly?
40:46Definitely. She's kind of, I think a lot of people, they call her the lady boss. The corgis call her
40:53the lady boss. And because they call him the monarch, the king, the boss. And they say that the lady
40:59boss, if there's ever a slightly tricky, if there's anything in this sort of too difficult folder, they go to
41:05the lady boss first.
41:06And then she can take it, she can work the boss. She can go and talk it through with the
41:12king. I think that she's quite sensible, but uncompromising, and often will try and find a pragmatic way through.
41:20I also like the way that she does try to keep something of her own life as well, and has
41:25her own place where she can go to and just kind of not be the queen.
41:29And have you heard the latest goss?
41:30No.
41:31The latest gossip about Ray Mills, which is her house in Wiltshire.
41:35So the house next door was due to be sold. And there was rumours that it was going to be
41:39bought and turned into a wedding venue.
41:41Oh, no.
41:42Can you imagine? Can you imagine those empty bottles of Cremont? Lord Prosecco. Ugh.
41:47Like lobbed over the royal wall into Queen Camilla's prized, you know, prized garden, her pride and joy. Do you
41:54know what the king did?
41:55Bought it.
41:56He bought it. He paid almost four million pounds.
42:00Bloody Nora.
42:01For the old mill.
42:02What are you going to do with it?
42:02Well, probably just leave it empty and then there's no weddings need to happen there, apart from maybe her grandchildren.
42:07But magic awful if, in the end, it was Andrew Mountbatten-Winds who ended up living there.
42:11They wouldn't have exiled him there. I don't think Camilla would have stood for it.
42:15Okay.
42:15Do we think that the two of them really don't get on?
42:18I have no idea, but I can see how that scenario might hold water.
42:23That's everything today from the show that always explains and never complains.
42:30I'm now going to hand over to my colleague, Emily, to give you some important information.
42:34The terms and conditions, and they are.
42:38If you are watching us or listening to us on YouTube, please do like, follow and subscribe.
42:44Remember, we're out every Thursday on podcast and YouTube.
42:47We're out on Saturdays on 5.
42:49Don't forget, if you have got any questions that you want answering, or even any comments,
42:54if you've got any comments, leave us a review.
42:56Do you think that Charles and Andrew hate each other?
42:58What do you think about the Middletons?
42:59Do you think that William and Catherine are the best thing that's ever happened to the British Crown?
43:03Email in at royals at spirit-studios.com.
43:07Until next week, have a great week.
43:12Have a great week.
43:19Have a great week.
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