The Fashion Society at Richmond American University in London introduces the second student led Episode for the Fashion Society Podcast Series. This Episode includes Vice President, Shamaya Plumb, and important topics that involve the future of fashion and important sustainability topics. #JustAFashionMinute #FashionPodcast #FashionAI #London #Richmond #RichmondAmericanUniversityLondon #RAIUL #Podcast #StudentLed
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00:00Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the second episode of the Fashion Society podcast series.
00:06I'm your host, Kendall Hekstrom, president of the Fashion Society, and I'm here with your vice president, Shamaya Plump.
00:12So today we will focus on personal branding, career tips, as well as luxury and fashion brand management.
00:18And to dive into these topics, we have a special guest with us here today, David Watts.
00:23David is an extremely talented creative director, consultant, lecturer, and podcaster based here in London.
00:28He's led numerous teams for prominent retailers such as Marks & Spencers, Topshop, and many more.
00:34Worked with prestigious ready-to-wear companies across the world, ranging from Paris to Rome,
00:39as well as lectured at the Condé Nast College of Fashion, and so much more.
00:43So we're so thankful to have you here with us today, David.
00:46Thank you very much. It's great to be here.
00:48So, David, I was wondering, in competitive environments,
00:52what's the one personality trait that you think actually separates those who succeed from those that don't?
01:00It's a really good question.
01:01In my personal view, I think it comes down to passion and determination.
01:07I think you can have a lot of skills, you can be very intelligent,
01:12and yet you can be incredibly lazy or you can procrastinate.
01:16I think having passion also is an enormous driver.
01:22And I always say it about, you know, when I'm talking to students or in higher education,
01:26if you don't find the passion, particularly in fashion or creative or luxury,
01:31you won't have the drive.
01:33And it's really tough. They're really tough industries.
01:35So if you're passionate about something, you will keep going,
01:40which is also really important.
01:42And I say that, you know, there'll be days when you don't want to do it,
01:45but it's also when you truly believe in something.
01:48You know, I've spent many decades in fashion,
01:51and I'm still as passionate about it today as I was when I started
01:55or when I started reading magazines when I was 13.
01:57So I think definitely passion.
01:59I definitely agree with you on that.
02:01I think being passionate and just doing what you love,
02:04I mean, it makes it easier, it makes it drive easier.
02:06So I agree.
02:07Yeah, I think also you have to remember that when people say, you know,
02:11follow your passion, at the end of the day,
02:13most of us, we're still going to have to go out and find a job to pay the bills,
02:18those luxuries like a mortgage or water, you know, food.
02:22So you can't just follow your passion.
02:24But if you're lucky enough to work hard enough to be able to find the role that you really love
02:29and really want to spend your time doing, then you can develop your passion.
02:34Especially in fashion, it's like any creative endeavor you take,
02:38you really need to put your heart on your sleeve and kind of just go full force.
02:40Of course, it's very obvious and you can tell someone's working in the creative industry
02:44just trying to make a quick buck versus it's their true passion.
02:47So I definitely agree with that as well.
02:49Well, you see The Devil Wears Prada and now The Devil Wears Prada 2 is all over the news.
02:54You can't escape it.
02:55And, you know, that movie is so, the first one is so real.
02:59It's so realistic.
03:00You know, it really is.
03:01And if you look at The Devil Wears Prada, the original movie, by comparison to the September issue,
03:06which was the documentary about a fly on the wall in a year of Vogue, it's relatively the same.
03:11You take out just some of the kind of dramatic comedy bits, but actually the job, the role, the pressure
03:16is,
03:17it's very similar.
03:18You know, it really is a very good example of how fashion, and that's fashion publishing.
03:23That's not even the fashion, you know, manufacturing industry.
03:26What would be a small habit or tool that you use every day that keeps you staying productive and motivated?
03:32Very strangely, I use a paper diary, and I have a fountain pen, which I've used for more than 35
03:38years.
03:39So I always write my diary in terms of, I mean, an appointment book, not as in dear diary, but
03:44an appointment book.
03:45But every morning, I open my diary when I am literally getting up, and I write on the top of
03:53it two words.
03:54I wrote motivation, and I write mood.
03:59And every day, I write both, because my motivation affects my mood, and my mood affects my motivation.
04:06So I will say, you know, like motivation, upwardly mobile, you know, striving, pushing forward today.
04:12One word, usually one word, two words, and then my mood.
04:15You know, good mood, cheery, bright, grumpy.
04:19Sometimes I wake up in a grumpy mood.
04:20And it actually, it's a really good grounding way of looking at, you know, how you're feeling in that moment.
04:27Because how you're feeling in that moment is going to impact hugely on what you're going to do for the
04:30rest of the day.
04:31I think especially as an artist, you kind of need to let your mind room a little bit before you
04:35start to consume what other people are creating.
04:37Looking at social media, scrolling through Instagram, TikTok, whatever the case may be.
04:41Just sitting down and giving yourself those couple minutes in the morning to give yourself some morning pages kind of
04:46starts your day off.
04:47It's a little, it's just taking a beat.
04:49It's very, you know, it's really interesting.
04:51I kind of started doing it because a friend of mine is a therapist, and he was saying to me,
04:56you know, that exact thing.
04:57You know, you get up, you switch your phone on, it's the first thing you do.
05:00You're still lying in bed.
05:01You start to scroll.
05:02You look at LinkedIn.
05:02You look at Instagram.
05:04Suddenly you are into it, completely up to your neck, and you're already racing.
05:10Your brain is already racing away.
05:13We're seeing a massive shift towards AI right now.
05:15How do you think brands could keep their traditions with these new digital standards?
05:20AI is king at the moment.
05:22I think like all technology, sometimes we're a little fearful of the unknown.
05:29I think we have already started to see how crazy the AI sphere is in terms of the companies that
05:39are running it and managing it.
05:40And we're talking about the big multi-conglomerates in the U.S.
05:45From my personal belief, I think AI is a tool like any other technology.
05:50And if you know how to use it, and you understand what it can deliver, and you are clever enough
05:56and intuitive enough and smart enough to use it well, it will be an amazing tool.
06:04I think in terms of creative and creativity, we are looking at a little bit of a problem.
06:10We are facing a crisis in terms of people saying, well, we can get rid of copywriters and graphic people
06:17and design people, etc.
06:19But you can up to a point, because my belief is that AI is like a funnel, and what you
06:25put in the top comes out the bottom, a little bit more refined.
06:29So if you have a limited knowledge, limited creativity, limited innovation, you're going to put that in the top, and
06:37it's essentially gobbledygook.
06:38And gobbledygook will come out the bottom.
06:40You know, so the reality is, if you're really clever, you're really artful, you're really creative, you're really, you know,
06:48shit hot, that is what you're going to put in.
06:50You're going to, they'll be the prompts, they'll be the questions.
06:53And then what comes out the bottom is going to be interesting things.
06:57I think there will be a lot of people who probably coasted for a long time in the creative industries
07:02who will be out of work.
07:03And that's not a good thing.
07:05But I also think that it's going to really sharpen up creativity and innovation across the board over time.
07:12And we'll see where we go from there.
07:15In terms of using it with businesses, I think that you're right, it can define and kind of narrow down
07:21certain ideas and make things easier.
07:23But then you had, I mean, for example, Vogue.
07:26Vogue released like an AI model photo shoot, and it did not go down well with the audience or on
07:32social media.
07:33So it will be really interesting to see how people will start accepting AI and how brands will try to
07:40be careful with what they say that they're using AI for.
07:43I think just right now, since it's more new, we're just not used to it.
07:47But I think in the future, yeah, I do think it would become more the norm.
07:52So it will be really interesting to see how it plays out.
07:54Well, I mean, I think, you know, you make a very valid point.
07:58A couple of brands have done, you know, campaigns, and there was quite a lot of brouhaha about, you know,
08:04not using real models.
08:05And, you know, we're going to get, you know, we're going to move away from real people, real models, you
08:09know, et cetera.
08:10It's going to damage the industry, you know, which to a point is going to be the case.
08:16But it was ever the case, you know, technology is always going to make things redundant and make other things
08:22more important.
08:23You know, when video, VHS was created, people said it was going to be the end of movies or it's
08:28going to be the end of television.
08:30You know, look back through time, you know, every time a technological advance happened, people said it's the end of
08:36whatever came before.
08:37Now, in some cases, you know, it changed hugely.
08:41But also, I don't think we can forget that, you know, we are still human beings.
08:46And if you look at, for example, and I always think Amazon and the book situation, you know, and Amazon
08:51created the Kindle and the books are going to be electronic.
08:54It's going to do away with books and libraries.
08:56And yes, it had a huge impact and major, huge book groups, bookstores, like went to the wall.
09:03But then weirdly, you know, fast forward to 2026, Amazon were opening bookstores last time I heard.
09:09You know, so, you know, people have come back to reading books.
09:12I've never seen so many people on the tube in London reading books as I have in the last year.
09:16So it's always going to be an evolution, I think.
09:20And I think when we are living in a period of, you know, we love that reaction, the clickbait, you
09:27know, it has to be a drama.
09:28It's all about the drama.
09:29So we're all heightened to, you know, be insecure about it.
09:34The media doesn't help because they need, you know, headlines that are going to get us all kind of jittery
09:38and, you know, tweeting and twitching about, you know, all these problems and all the unemployment and, you know, people
09:45being done away with.
09:46It's going to, it will level itself out over time, in my view, and will probably just make things a
09:51little bit better.
09:52Yeah, I think with AI, people kind of have to grapple with the fact that it's already here.
09:57It isn't really a circumstance of if you like it or not.
10:00And I definitely agree that it needs to be used as an aid or rather than a supplement.
10:04I think that's what Kendall was mentioning with the Vogue situation.
10:08Some people feel like certain creatives are outsourcing human things that really can't be replaced, essentially, with AI.
10:17But as you had mentioned, if you use it as a tool, put it at the top of the funnel,
10:19it'll refine it and it'll be a better version, essentially.
10:23I'm curious to see how AI will kind of evolve within the fashion industry.
10:28We are in a sea of copy-paste.
10:30We are so tired of the same sort of images reduced to, you know, a blank, you know, background.
10:38You know, we're looking at product shots and editorial shots.
10:41That used to be the most exciting thing about fashion.
10:43Yeah.
10:43Because you couldn't see those clothes until you went, until they came into the stores six months after you saw
10:48them on the runway, which most people didn't see.
10:50That was industry.
10:51But now we are so ubiquitous and it's like, but we don't see those cool images or those cool editorials,
10:58or at least not very many.
10:59And it's become so bland.
11:01You have to separate fashion from every other thing.
11:03It is the most unique thing.
11:06You cannot replicate it.
11:07It is so, because it's almost ethereal.
11:10You don't know why you love fashion.
11:11You just know you love it.
11:13And it's so difficult to replicate that.
11:15And that's the problem with a lot of the big companies that are taking over fashion brands today.
11:20And I think AI will also play into that hugely going forward.
11:24There's a bit of conflict with the demand for sustainability and AI's high energy needs.
11:29How can a brand move towards using AI while still trying to be sustainable?
11:33It's a really catch-22 question.
11:35Thank you very much.
11:36Very tricky.
11:37There is no question that the amount of energy that's required to generate to run AI is absolutely phenomenal.
11:46And that's a huge problem.
11:48And we probably, as consumers, as the general public, we probably don't even know to what extent that is.
11:54I mean, I watched a documentary recently.
11:56I think it was Google Gemini.
11:59I think it was about Google Gemini.
12:01I think it was the CEO of Google.
12:03And he was talking about the chip that they use to generate, you know, what they need to do to
12:10generate this information.
12:12And he was saying something.
12:13I'm just paraphrasing because I don't have all the facts.
12:15He was saying something like he held up this chip that was like half the size of a phone.
12:21And he said, within this chip, if every single person on the planet simultaneously was doing a mathematical equation indefinitely
12:32for like 24-hour periods,
12:34it would only use up like one second of the capacity of this chip.
12:39And this chip, they put 45 of these chips into a box that is then stacked in a box of
12:47an additional 100 of these boxes.
12:49And that's just a part of what they need to be able to run some of their AI.
12:55And that is unbelievable amounts of power.
12:59If you look at the resource that's going to be used for that, we're now looking at more nuclear energy,
13:06which is a huge shift away from, you know, wind and solar.
13:10We're kind of caught in that 22 catch 22 loop again, whereby you need so much nuclear energy.
13:17Didn't we all talk about, you know, 20 years ago that we were moving away from nuclear energy to all
13:23of these natural resources?
13:25It is a very strange situation that brands find themselves in in exactly the same way brands find themselves in
13:33now with fast fashion.
13:34If you look at H&M and all the latest going on about their sustainability practices, et cetera.
13:39In a weird sort of counter to the AI thing, like with fast fashion, H&M are hugely invested, doing
13:48probably more than anybody else is.
13:51But they are still considered to be the biggest fast fashion, you know, foul that's around, you know.
13:58So therefore, you know, can they ever really win at that game?
14:02When does it become sort of greenwashing and sustainability and back to the AI and companies?
14:07I think, yes, they are. Of course, they're going to use AI, but it's it's a little bit like sustainability.
14:14Unless you really understand that from grassroots as an individual within a company, it's very difficult to be able to
14:21equate and say, OK, well, if we use AI, then we're actually using too much energy.
14:24Therefore, we're not being sustainable because that's such a broad statement of fact.
14:30You know, not in my backyard or, oh, it's not really me.
14:32We're just doing a tiny little bit of AI. But actually, in truth, it's just so vast.
14:38But nobody wants to talk about that because it is so vast.
14:41So we are in a bit of a, you know, a dilemma.
14:44I mean, sustainability is a huge topic right now.
14:47And now that AI is a huge topic right now, it's kind of like, which route are you trying to
14:52get better at?
14:53Do you want to hop on the AI train right now or focus more on the sustainability side?
14:58Do a little bit of both. I don't know if you can fully do both.
15:01Yeah, it's absolutely true. And I think, you know, part of the challenge to that is, you know, we've become
15:07sustainability fatigued.
15:09You know, I do a little bit of lecturing as much as I used to.
15:13But the minute I start talking about sustainability, I know the eyes roll a little bit.
15:19Oh, we know about sustainability.
15:21And I'm kind of going, but do you really, you know, because there's so much in that that we don't
15:28still don't understand.
15:29And as consumers, we have no idea and no scale of what is currently going on.
15:35So I think exactly the same is going to be the situation with AI.
15:39We are living in such a, you know, an instant gratification mindset.
15:44You know, we want the information now.
15:46We want it instantaneously.
15:47We want to know it succinctly.
15:50And, you know, our attention spans are shrinking.
15:52You know, everybody's.
15:53We know that the phone digital has made us very, very impatient.
15:59You know, in addition to being able to respond instantaneously, which we shouldn't, but we do.
16:05We also want that information immediately.
16:07But what we're not prepared to do is to fact check that information.
16:10We're not prepared to go and research to see actually is that accurate?
16:14Because we live in a world of fake news.
16:17And, you know, and now AI has made that even more difficult because you don't even know what you're looking
16:22at because it's generated by, you know, by machines.
16:26And that is terrifying.
16:28I mean, if you look back 15 years, there were TV programs about the possibility of those sort of things
16:33happening.
16:34TV series, you know, drama, you know, secret detectives, you know, all these things.
16:40And you look at it now and you kind of go, it is real.
16:42Facial recognition technology and the whole cloning recreation of images that is flawless and seamless.
16:50You couldn't tell.
16:51Even experts can tell that has been doctored by AI.
16:54So, you know, we are we're living in a very, you know, challenging environment.
16:59You have to want to get to the truth and the story and the reality of it, because if you
17:05don't have the truth about it, you're never going to be in a position to either support it or to
17:10argue your corner.
17:12Yeah. And I think that's another reason why it's so difficult for a lot of these big retailers to focus
17:18on sustainability, to kind of decide if they're going more so the sustainable route or they're going the AI route.
17:23So, as you had mentioned, consumers aren't really paying attention.
17:26They aren't doing that research.
17:28All you have to do is put a tag that says recycled cotton, recycled whatever, whatever material, but they're not
17:33doing the research behind it.
17:35And then thinking about the fact that sustainable practices aren't standardized.
17:39So what does sustainability truly mean on a larger scale?
17:42Have you seen any progress within the sustainability practices with the companies you've worked with?
17:47Yes, I have. And I think the smaller businesses, it takes so much more energy and work and dedication from
17:55those companies to do it rather than the bigger companies.
17:58But then you look at, you know, programs that like Adidas and, you know, that are an enormous, you know,
18:03multi-billion annual turnover.
18:06And then you get into the whole conversation about athleisure and, you know, everything that you produce that is going
18:14to be a lycra or a stretch or a polyester requires oil to be produced.
18:19We have three billion barrels of oil used annually just to produce athleisure.
18:25Now, three billion barrels of oil in the context of, you know, fashion is already the second largest polluter before
18:33even getting to the water situation.
18:35So, you know, look at, and I'm not here to bash all those athleisure companies, but look at the expansion
18:42of, you know, Aloe and Rory and Lululemon and, you know, how many others have become multi-billion revenue brands.
18:52Okay, well, who's doing all of the textile development on, you know, substitutes for that?
18:58You know, what about wool?
18:59Wool used to be the product.
19:01You know, wool for athleisure, you know, it naturally wicks perspiration away.
19:08So who's doing all the advancement on tech fabrics and not even tech, but the technology for fabrics that could
19:16make a difference and a substitute?
19:18Because three billion barrels of oil, but I suspect lots of people don't know that.
19:22Yeah, I would say the average consumer doesn't know that.
19:24I didn't know that.
19:25So thank you for that fun fact, because that is insane.
19:28Clothing is the second pollutant.
19:30Just the athleisure clothing.
19:32Yeah, which is crazy.
19:34Not even considering all the different categories of clothing.
19:37But when I talk about sustainability to some of my students and I say, okay, how many people have more
19:42than two pairs of denim jeans?
19:44Of course, the hands go up.
19:45How many people have more than five?
19:46How many people have more than 10?
19:49Fashion students and, you know, some people are guilty of, no judgment.
19:52But I say, you know, do you know that it takes 10,000 liters of water to process one pair
20:00of denim jeans?
20:01I didn't know that.
20:03That is 26 bathtubs full of water.
20:07Now, if I take you outside and I have 26 bathtubs filled with water and I have my one pair
20:12of jeans and I show you that in real time, you are going to completely change your attitude and your
20:18thought process about how denim is produced.
20:22And you will start asking questions, which is what I want.
20:25And my students are going to go, you know, I'm going, just one pair.
20:29So if you've got 10 pairs, think of all that water, you know, in countries that are producing denim with,
20:37you know, with spraying and dyeing that don't actually have clean water to drink, whether that's in India, whether that's
20:43in Turkey, you know, all these countries.
20:45When you reduce that information down to what I call bite-sized pieces and bring customers on board, you're so
20:53far ahead of the game because everybody just bombards people with statistics and facts and greenwashing.
20:59As you were saying, whereby actually people don't really know the basics, you know, that changes your whole mindset.
21:06My students are saying, well, you know, what can we do about it?
21:08And I said, well, you can make a pact not to buy more than two pairs of denim jeans.
21:13And if you do it and this whole class of 20 people do it, and then we talk to the
21:17class next door and say, you don't do it.
21:19I said, suddenly you could get, you know, 100 people not buying more than two pairs of jeans.
21:24I said, if you stop buying them, eventually the manufacturers will stop manufacturing them because nobody's buying them.
21:32But we don't believe that we can make a difference as an individual, and we can.
21:37When it comes to secondhand shops and charity shopping, what is your opinion on, you know, if you went and
21:44bought jeans from that because it's already made, it's already been used?
21:48I think that's a great idea.
21:50I also have a slide on my decks about charity shopping and secondhand shopping because I think the charity shops
21:57are facing an enormous crisis whereby they cannot actually get rid of the stuff that they are getting.
22:03They can't sell it, and then they are left to have to ship that product probably to another country to
22:11actually just to move it through their own warehousing because it's not good.
22:15People don't want to buy it, but people feel good about bringing it to a charity shop because, oh, I've
22:19done my bit.
22:20A little bit like, you know, I don't do shopping in fast fashion, but I just pop into Primark because
22:26I need something for the party.
22:27That is an enormous problem.
22:29Something else I didn't know until recently, most charity shops won't take books anymore because they can't sell them.
22:38We've also fallen into that sort of resale and, you know, the vintage, not to knock it, Depop, all those
22:46things are fantastic, but there is a little hint of greenwashing splashed in there.
22:50Also, if anybody's really canny, they're going to be on the doorstep of those really good, you know, shops, secondhand
22:58shops, charity shops, and they will get the good things.
23:01But that is going to be so, that's more rare than common, I believe.
23:05But actually, I'd be curious to know from you, you know, how hard is it to find good things or
23:12interesting things or things that you want to buy?
23:13Well, actually, I volunteer at a charity shop, and so I do agree with you.
23:20We get so many donations, and there's plenty that we cannot sell.
23:26We just ship it to either a different charity shop through that company, or we ship it to a warehouse.
23:32We do get overloaded.
23:34I mean, the way that my charity shop has been addressing it is we have a very cheap, like, two
23:38-pound rack.
23:39And so people will come in, they'll buy things.
23:41Sometimes they'll buy things that have a little bit of a rip in it, and they'll, like, repair it themselves
23:46because they got it for a pound.
23:48When it comes to books, we actually do pretty okay with books at my charity shop, but I've been to
23:53plenty of charity shops where they don't even have a book section.
23:56It is really interesting.
23:57I think every secondhand shop, especially in London, is different.
24:02Even if it's the same company, they're going to be different where you go.
24:06So, from my perspective, it does depend on the area you go to.
24:12Absolutely.
24:12It's a geography lottery.
24:14The main thing is it takes time.
24:17When I go charity shopping, I hit up six different stores.
24:21I do think it's possible to find anything that you would like, you could find in a charity shop.
24:27Cool.
24:27Well, you're a good example of that.
24:29Yes, I know.
24:29I mean, I'm confident to say that 90% of my closet is all secondhand shopping clothes.
24:35That is fantastic.
24:36You know, it really is.
24:37Also, on top of the fact that we only wear 15% on average of our wardrobe, and everything else
24:43just sits at the back end of the wardrobe.
24:45I got into that mindset after I went to Australia.
24:47I just thought, okay, I'm going to have all the basics, essentially two white shirts, two pairs of denim, socks,
24:54underwear, of course, some accessories, two pieces of knitwear, three pieces of knitwear, a couple of shirts.
25:00And literally, you could have a wardrobe that you would wear, look relatively presentable, and exist on, you know, that
25:08small amount of garments in your wardrobe.
25:10It all does help, but as human beings, you do get caught up with attachment issues to product.
25:16You know, it's just a thing, but we have, we place emotional attachment on that, even clothing.
25:23So moving into now the luxury market, do you think that the fashion industry is redefining what luxury means for
25:31the next generations?
25:32I don't think luxury is focusing on the new generation.
25:39I think we've gone through, and I think we've gone through five or 10 years when luxury was only focused
25:46on Gen Z.
25:48Of course, now we have Gen Alpha.
25:50So if you guys have younger siblings coming along, that's who the brands are going to be interested in.
25:57You're kind of already over the hill as a Gen Z-er.
26:00I hate to break it to you, but you're kind of over the hill because it's a little bit like,
26:04you know, who came before you, millennials.
26:06They were the target market.
26:09Now it moved on, and then the focus for the last 10 years has been Gen Z.
26:14Now actually, you'll find that, like everything in time, millennials who went out into the world, start getting jobs, start
26:21making revenue, start getting nice salaries.
26:24They're now the customers of those brands, if they're lucky.
26:27So in exactly the same way, the industry is going to wait for Gen Z to get out there into
26:32the world and start making income and start spending their money.
26:36And they hope they will have planted the seed sufficiently along the way, you know, in the last 10 years
26:42for that to make an impact, to get you to shop at those brands.
26:45I'm a little bit of a naysayer when it comes to all of that media hype that goes on about,
26:50you know, Gen Z are only interested in experiences.
26:53They're not interested in luxury brands, not interested in historic brands.
26:56It's making Gen Z into one thing, which it isn't, because depending on where you live, your socioeconomic situation, your
27:06beliefs,
27:06you have enormous differences in this group of Gen Z than you do in this group of Gen Z.
27:12So to kind of put it all into one collective, I think is incredibly short-sighted anyhow.
27:18And then if you put into that, you know, geography, socio-political situations, upbringing,
27:26all of those things that shape individuals are going to have a huge impact on how we shop and what
27:31we do, how we spend our money,
27:32particularly when we have an income and when our circumstances change.
27:36So I think in a strange way, Gen Z are probably not the focus anymore,
27:42but I think they are still in the slipstream of the brands who want to get new customers.
27:48So therefore, they still are, you know, in the sights of the luxury brands.
27:53But I don't think luxury brands are doing anything that I would call amazingly, proactively clever to get that attention.
28:00In fact, if anything, they're kind of going backwards.
28:02You know, the level of service, the standards, retail is having a very difficult time.
28:08And also, in a really strange way, and I was talking about this recently with some colleagues,
28:12retail has almost gone backwards.
28:14You go into a designer luxury store, and you, if you're lucky,
28:19you don't get a somewhat slightly standoffish or even sometimes snooty salesperson
28:25who looks you up and down and says, Jess, you know, are you really our customer?
28:29You know, which you kind of used to hear about 20 years ago.
28:31And it still goes on today.
28:33And I actually did a comparative shopping session last week in Bond Street.
28:38And I won't go into naming names because I've already said it.
28:41But, you know, I had some amazing, well, I will say the amazing,
28:44I went into the Dries Van Noten store in Hanover Square.
28:47And huge shout out to those people.
28:49They were so welcoming and so friendly and so helpful and so nice
28:55that it was like I spent 40 minutes in that store.
28:58Now, I had no intentions of shopping at that particular time,
29:01but they were telling me about the collections and what was happening
29:03and new things had come in.
29:04And it was a really joyful experience.
29:07And then I went to another retailer on Bond Street,
29:10a brand that I love personally,
29:12but the salespeople were so cold and standoffish and indifferent
29:18to the point of not even,
29:20some of them not even bothering to kind of acknowledge you.
29:23And I just thought, do you not understand that you're making me feel slightly awkward,
29:29not uncomfortable because I wouldn't let anybody in the store make me feel uncomfortable.
29:33But I kind of thought, why would I want to come into your store again
29:37and spend, you know, hundreds if not thousands of pounds of my hard-earned money
29:41when you're giving me, we're not really that fussed vibe.
29:46And I wouldn't go into that store again in spite of loving the brand.
29:50So I think that's an enormous problem even today
29:54and is impacting hugely on retail.
29:57And retailers don't realize it.
29:58They don't think, they all think it's about the product.
30:01But actually, a huge part of it is about the salespeople
30:04and the environments and what they're creating.
30:07It used to be a case of, it was that rope outside
30:11and you were kind of lucky to be invited into that store to be able to shop.
30:16And we're kind of reverting back to that again.
30:19The opening of the doors, embracing people, not judging,
30:22because you never know what people have on their bank account
30:25because they wear holes in the jeans.
30:27It's a strange thing.
30:28And I've noticed a lot of that recently, again, kind of creeping into luxury retail.
30:33I don't know, I could be wrong, but what do you think?
30:35I would say the customer experience is so important,
30:39especially when you're talking about these luxury retailers.
30:41Like you mentioned, if I'm going in,
30:43I'm looking at products that are hundreds of pounds, thousands of pounds,
30:46I'm expecting the salesperson to be kind, to be nice,
30:50you know, explaining the products, explaining the collections,
30:53especially when you think about it from a sales perspective.
30:56Like you're taking home a commission from what I purchased, working with you.
30:59Why would I want to work with you?
31:01And you're being standoffish, you're not engaging with me,
31:03not asking me questions.
31:05So I definitely think that adds to it as well.
31:07And it is interesting that we're moving back towards that.
31:09You wouldn't think that.
31:10You would think it'll progress, especially over the years.
31:13And as you mentioned, like they're trying to grab new generations,
31:16have people in their stores.
31:17You need to have a friendly face.
31:19And I had another experience recently at The Row,
31:23which is a brand that I love.
31:25And they're a store in Carlos Place in London.
31:28And again, I just walked in and it's a big store.
31:30I just started talking with a sales chap.
31:35And it turned out he was Italian, but he was actually black.
31:38And I said, I said, you know, that's really fascinating.
31:41I said, because I actually was born in Ireland,
31:43which a lot of people don't know about.
31:45And I was saying, well, how, where did you grow up in Italy?
31:48And he said, oh, small city.
31:50And I said, that must have been extraordinary for you, you know,
31:52as somebody who is, you know, black-skinned growing up.
31:55And he said, well, yes, we were the only people that were black.
31:58And he said, we had a lot of problems.
32:00And we just started starting this conversation.
32:02And then we were talking about the store and the fashion and the owners.
32:05And, you know, and it was, and I must have been there for like 45 minutes to an hour.
32:09Now, I didn't buy anything.
32:10That experience was so, you know, both affirming and also interesting for me,
32:15because I love the brand anyhow.
32:17But like, I wouldn't hear a word said against the brand now.
32:21It's like, the row, yeah, love it.
32:22And that is such a difference in a mindset,
32:25because that person liked what they're doing.
32:29And it's that, to me, it's like, if you don't want to do it, don't do it.
32:32But if you do, then give it your best, you know, and retail.
32:35It's also, I think, partly to do with it, it's a problem in this country,
32:38because the British have a very weird, it's still a class thing.
32:43You know, if you work in a service industry or you work as,
32:47it goes back to, you know, when people had servants.
32:50You know, really, I think it's in the DNA.
32:52And people look down on people who are in service industries.
32:56You know, whether it's waiters, whether it's salespeople.
32:58I think it's a terrible problem in this country.
33:00But, you know, I thought it was changing.
33:02But you still discover that it's not, you know, in every case.
33:06Yes.
33:06There is one brand in particular, I think, that does well at this is Ralph Lauren, actually.
33:11In their London store, they have a cafe.
33:15And so it's affordable if you were just going in.
33:19You can get a small drink or, like, a little pastry.
33:21But you can still feel like you're a part of that brand.
33:24You can walk around the store.
33:26When I go there, I think it's a lovely experience.
33:28I also love the aesthetics.
33:29But I just think it's a great idea because it brings in, well, Instagrammable moments.
33:36But also it just brings in just the cheaper market.
33:39And you can still feel so luxury buying a coffee from Ralph Lauren.
33:44You feel included.
33:46It's inclusive.
33:47It's the difference between pressing your nose against the glass on the outside and having access to the brand or
33:54to the store on the inside.
33:55Do you have any personal advice for soon-to-be fashion graduates or anyone with their journey on personal branding?
34:02Try to have a point of view.
34:05Try to have a unique selling point.
34:07Have something about you that is of interest to somebody.
34:10Because, you know, if you sit down for, for example, an interview or you're going for a placement or an
34:17internship or anything that gets you a toe in the door of a new opportunity, career or otherwise, you know,
34:22have something interesting to say.
34:24Why would people remember you?
34:26Why would people want to talk to you?
34:28You know, I do, in my past, I've interviewed a lot of people and hired a lot of people and
34:32run big companies.
34:33And I find it really sad when I ask people really simple questions and they look at me and they
34:40kind of can't answer.
34:41And particularly with me, it's usually related to fashion or beauty.
34:47And I'll say, no, what's your favorite fashion designer for what house and why?
34:51Now, that doesn't sound like a really challenging question.
34:54But the number of people kind of look at me kind of blankly and go, you know, I don't really
34:59have a brand I'm going to go in, but you're studying fashion or you went to fashion school or you've
35:04been doing this or you're doing marketing or you're doing luxury.
35:07How can you not have, how can you not tell me in this conversation a brand that you like and
35:13why?
35:14It's challenging.
35:15And if they can't tell me, then I'm going to go, well, you have no interest beyond applying for this
35:21job because I'm asking you what is a passion or what you're interested in.
35:27So having a point of view, having something that allows you to stand out from everybody else is going to
35:33be in that room.
35:34To me, it's the important thing.
35:36And that can take you years to work on.
35:38It doesn't, it's not an overnight thing, but you have to be able to develop that.
35:43And I think one of the core ways of doing that is to read because a lot of people have
35:48stopped reading.
35:48A lot of people don't read.
35:50We have our phones, a lot of people, and, you know, not looking at students in the room, but, you
35:55know, they will read academic books if they have to.
35:58But my goodness, you know, I've been reading magazines since I was 12 and that's why I became interested in
36:03fashion.
36:04But people don't read magazines anymore.
36:06People don't read newspapers.
36:08You know, so where are you getting your information?
36:10You're getting information from a phone that is a very small snapshot of information that you don't verify or check
36:17if it's real.
36:18Back to our conversations about fake news.
36:20And so I would always say, you know, find things that you're interested in.
36:24It sounds really cliche.
36:25I am an avid consumer.
36:28I will, you know, I go to the theater.
36:29I go to museums.
36:31I go to galleries.
36:32Every weekend I will do something.
36:33I will make myself do something, even if I don't really feel it, because if you go to a gallery
36:40or a museum or an art show, it doesn't mean you have to go around the entire thing looking at
36:45everything.
36:45You can just go and find one thing that you find interesting.
36:48Look at it.
36:50Photograph the plaque.
36:51Find out who the artist is.
36:52Do a little bit of research.
36:53Go on to Google.
36:54That thing that's very easy to do.
36:56And just do a little tiny bit of research, you will find something that actually you might be interested in.
37:03And it gives you a piece of knowledge.
37:05Because when I'm talking to you, you're going to go, that's this really interesting painting.
37:08You know, and you suddenly go, oh, wow, I didn't know about that.
37:11So, you know, those are little tiny jewels of things that any person should have tucked away to be able
37:19to have a conversation.
37:19Because you never know when you're standing in an elevator or you're introduced to somebody informally that somebody says to
37:27you, oh, I did such and such and I'm doing art.
37:29And you're going to go, I went to Tate Modern.
37:31And it just sparks something.
37:35If not joy, it sparks something.
37:37And that can be an entree into something that you never know.
37:41It could be, you know, my friend is doing such and such.
37:43Or, oh, you like art?
37:44We're doing an art show.
37:45Go.
37:46It mightn't be a thing, but you never know who you'll meet.
37:48Or you actually might find something that you really like.
37:51And it could change your life.
37:53Yeah, I love that.
37:53It honestly goes hand in hand with also finding your personal style, just what you like.
37:58I always tell people if you want to be a well-rounded person, as you had mentioned, go to the
38:01theater, read books, watch different movies, listen to different music, read magazines, talk to people that aren't in your main
38:08community and your main niche.
38:10You need to look outside of yourself.
38:12It's so important that you explore, especially being in a city like London.
38:15And there is no reason you have a lack of inspiration for anything.
38:19There's inspiration everywhere.
38:20And so much of it is free.
38:21Yes.
38:21So much of it is free.
38:22You know, you go to, you know, to Paris or to Frankfurt and, you know, you have to pay 25
38:26euros to get into, you know, even the most mediocre.
38:30I used to live in Frankfurt.
38:30I don't mean that disparagingly.
38:32But, you know, even the most average museums, you have to pay 25 euros to get in.
38:35And over the course of a week, going to museum galleries, it becomes a very big expense.
38:40We have all that free on our doorsteps in London.
38:43But also it just gives you something else to spark something.
38:48You know, you just never know.
38:50Because if you live your life just looking at your phone, you know, you're never going to be, you're never
38:55going to be an explorer.
38:56Exactly.
38:56You're going to be somebody who just reads, feeds, and that I think is a great shame.
39:01Going along with trends.
39:03Yeah, no, it's sad.
39:04And TikTok has made that just so normal.
39:07Yeah.
39:08Going with trends, following influencers.
39:10At the end of the day, just be yourself and it'll work out, guys.
39:13We certainly hope so.
39:14Well, thank you so much, David, for coming here.
39:17This has been awesome.
39:18This has been great.
39:19You've given a lot of good advice and good points that we can all reflect on.
39:24It's been very fun.
39:25I think, again, you know, without getting into, you know, I'm an old man and I'm kind of talking at
39:30you like it's, you know, it's my own personal mantra.
39:32I love finding out new things.
39:34I love spending time being curious because how else do you live or do you explore things or discover things?
39:40So, you know, it's advice I'm giving.
39:42It's advice that I follow myself.
39:44And thank you for having me.
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