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00:00:00Is my video on? Oh, no, wait, I have to do videos.
00:00:05There you go.
00:00:08No, you are so nice. Once for years.
00:00:18I got to interview the man who started my career 20 years later.
00:00:24I got one of, I think, the last and longest interviews with him.
00:00:28My biggest question, to be honest, was like, did you know what it took to get that show on the
00:00:35air?
00:00:38Because I kind of knew some of what I was doing was wrong.
00:00:47The way we did it was dirty and manipulative and destroying people's lives.
00:00:57There's a lot of made-up stuff.
00:00:59This is all fake. We're doing it for attention.
00:01:02No one's going to get hurt.
00:01:04Welcome to the show.
00:01:05I was 17. I was pregnant.
00:01:07I felt like he'd exploited us.
00:01:09I feel like the Jerry Springer show is known for portraying the most you can possibly get away with.
00:01:15Whether that's nudity and vulgarity and chaos from people's messiest lives.
00:01:22We don't watch Jerry Springer on TV!
00:01:26A lot of people don't realize the effect this show had.
00:01:30If there's ever an entity that you could say was really trying to cause harm,
00:01:36it's the kind of thing those producers do on the Jerry Springer show.
00:01:40I'm asking you whether or not you're exploiting people that are troubled for money.
00:01:459-1-1 location in the emergency.
00:01:47Two teenagers charged with a horrible crime are blaming a TV show for the idea.
00:01:51Somebody might be harmed or killed in here.
00:01:55What do you want your legacy to be?
00:01:59Uh, the, uh, I don't want one.
00:02:10I don't know what's going on inside the house.
00:02:15This is just a silly show. It's just entertainment.
00:02:26I've been involved with television throughout most of my career.
00:02:29I've had several talk shows myself.
00:02:32I know Jerry Springer from multiple projects.
00:02:37He's a hard guy not to love.
00:02:39Yeah!
00:02:39Yeah!
00:02:40Yeah!
00:02:41Yeah!
00:02:41Yeah!
00:02:41Yeah!
00:02:41Yeah!
00:02:41It's just so uncomfortable.
00:02:42But when I used to watch the Jerry Springer show, I enjoyed Jerry trying to make Devonshire cream out of
00:02:50dog excrement.
00:02:52I appreciated him trying to do that, but it also made me feel bad.
00:02:58On the show, you're seeing a very narrow slice of time for these guests.
00:03:02Most of the audience doesn't realize that there's trauma behind the scenes from the people who come out on that
00:03:08set, but also the producers themselves are being traumatized.
00:03:12The Jerry Springer show.
00:03:14I'm a journalist who's been covering news and Hollywood for the last 15 years.
00:03:18Today on Springer.
00:03:20But I was a kid when I first came across the Jerry Springer show, when I was flipping through channels
00:03:26with my remote, and I'm sure my parents quickly shut it down.
00:03:30It was an unavoidable aspect of life in the 90s.
00:03:35The Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.
00:03:38That chant, everyone knows it.
00:03:41It ran for 27 seasons, and it aired over 4,000 episodes.
00:03:47Physical fights were encouraged.
00:03:49Secrets were exposed.
00:03:52Entire families were destroyed in real time on TV.
00:03:56This week's TV Guide lists the 50 worst TV shows of all time.
00:03:59Congratulations to number one, Jerry Springer.
00:04:02And it all really started with one person.
00:04:05An executive producer named Bert Dubrow.
00:04:11Why did you want to talk about Jerry Springer's show today?
00:04:15It's time.
00:04:15Listen, if this achieves anything, what you're doing, it'll set the friggin' record straight.
00:04:21Finally.
00:04:21Because it needs to be set straight.
00:04:31Everybody wants to take credit and say, I came up with this.
00:04:36I'm saying there was a plan for the Jerry Springer show to become a crazy, aggressive show saying things that
00:04:44might not entirely be true.
00:04:50I was working at a place called Multimedia.
00:04:54They're known for producing big talk shows like Phil Donahue and Sally Jesse Raphael.
00:05:00I was mainly doing Sally Jesse Raphael and this show called The Bob Braun Show.
00:05:04We were 90 minutes live.
00:05:06The last half hour was local news.
00:05:09And they hired a guy named Jerry Springer to come in and do commentaries on the news.
00:05:16I never even thought I'd be in show business.
00:05:18You know, I was doing politics.
00:05:20Jerry Springer worked on Robert F. Kennedy's campaign just before his assassination.
00:05:25He became mayor of a large city, Cincinnati.
00:05:28He became a city councilman.
00:05:29Someone came, hey, come to me and said, how about anchoring our news?
00:05:34This was the NBC affiliate.
00:05:35And that's how I got to be the news anchor for 10 years.
00:05:37Good evening, America's spirit is soaring tonight right along...
00:05:40And he was a natural for television.
00:05:42And it started ticking then in my head that Jerry Springer should have his own show.
00:05:50And so I went to the CEO of the company.
00:05:52So the CEO takes me to lunch one day and says, we're going to do another talk show.
00:05:57You're hosting it.
00:05:57So I was assigned to it.
00:05:59Thank you, sir.
00:06:00Okay.
00:06:02I floor directed him on the news.
00:06:05So when I heard Jerry Springer is starting his own talk show, of course, in my mind, I'm
00:06:10thinking I'm going to worm my way onto that show.
00:06:13And it took me a month.
00:06:15And then I was on the show.
00:06:20Television talk shows have a host.
00:06:22And the host is responsible to make something happen in front of the camera.
00:06:25But the reality is there's a giant machine behind that host.
00:06:29At the top of any kind of TV show is the executive producer.
00:06:33And the buck stops with them.
00:06:35That executive producer does everything.
00:06:37From the moment that show comes on to it goes off, you're responsible.
00:06:41Something goes wrong, it's your buck.
00:06:43And they're going to be the ones who approve every single guest, every single segment that
00:06:48appears on an episode of the show.
00:06:50Under the executive producer, you have the producer.
00:06:52So that producer decides kind of what the show is going to be about, what type of guests
00:06:56they want.
00:06:57And then below the producers, you have the associate producers.
00:07:00And the associate producer is working the phones to try and find those guests.
00:07:04Underneath an associate producer is a production assistant.
00:07:08The production assistants pretty much entertained the guests.
00:07:12Keep them company while they're in town, befriend them, make sure they're having a good time.
00:07:16And then at the bottom of the totem pole is the interns.
00:07:20The interns were the bitches of the production.
00:07:25You know, I would stock the coolers because they were always complaining about warm water.
00:07:29Why is my Fiji water warm?
00:07:31Why is my Fiji water warm?
00:07:32How come it wasn't in the fridge?
00:07:37The Jerry Springer show that we know today, the extreme chaotic version, is not how the show
00:07:44started.
00:07:45The show had pretty tame origins.
00:07:48Jerry Springer, weekdays at 11.
00:07:50In the beginning, we did show five days a week.
00:07:53It was really fashioned after the Phil Donahue show.
00:07:57More traditional format, topic driven, interesting expert guest.
00:08:02In the very beginning, we did some heartfelt shows with kids with certain distances and stuff
00:08:08like that.
00:08:09One day, you're doing a show on homelessness.
00:08:12The next day, we had Jesse Jackson on for an hour.
00:08:16I do believe to this day it was the lowest rated show that we had done.
00:08:20It just didn't work.
00:08:22People weren't exactly setting their VCRs to record the Jerry Springer show.
00:08:28And it certainly wasn't breaking any records in the ratings, you know?
00:08:33Well, look, nobody wants a low rating, of course.
00:08:35But for the record, let me state it now.
00:08:39We never said, gee, we're failing.
00:08:43The best way to do this is to have fights every day.
00:08:47Never happened.
00:08:49Most good ideas come to us by accident.
00:08:54In 1993, Jerry Springer brought in a group of white supremacists, outspoken, and some black
00:09:01activists.
00:09:02What could go wrong?
00:09:03They went at each other and all hell broke loose.
00:09:09Holy crap.
00:09:10This was one of the first fights.
00:09:16We stopped the tape.
00:09:17We were scared to death.
00:09:19We didn't know what happened.
00:09:21We didn't know what hit us.
00:09:22We didn't know if anybody was going to get hurt.
00:09:24Jerry's just trying to get through it.
00:09:27I don't think he really knew what to do.
00:09:29I spoke to the audience.
00:09:31Everybody sit down.
00:09:32Jerry spoke to the audience.
00:09:33The test is going to be whether we can continue for an hour to talk about this.
00:09:41You can see from listening to Jerry and watching Jerry how new this was.
00:09:47I bet you if I interviewed Jerry at that moment, he would go, no, no, no.
00:09:50This, we've gone too far.
00:09:51We don't want to go this way.
00:09:53And yet, it kept going.
00:09:56As a producer of the show, you're thinking, this is good.
00:10:01You know, this is good.
00:10:02This is now going to be on the news.
00:10:04After a white racist made a nasty comment, things got physical.
00:10:08We promoted the hell out of it.
00:10:09This is going to rate.
00:10:11And I remember going, whoa, let's go with this.
00:10:15I bring everybody over to bring staff meeting with everyone.
00:10:19Jerry, too.
00:10:20I said, look, we're wiping the slate clean.
00:10:22You guys tell me what you want to do.
00:10:24People come to me with ideas.
00:10:26People came with crazy stuff.
00:10:29Good stuff.
00:10:30Now the Jerry Springer show is evolving.
00:10:33Here are some of the segment titles.
00:10:36Stripper sex turned me straight.
00:10:39Stop pimping my twin sister.
00:10:41Surprise.
00:10:43I'm in love with your mother.
00:10:45Conjoined twins.
00:10:47Going on a date.
00:10:47Christmas with the clan.
00:10:49Surprise.
00:10:50I'm screwing your cousin.
00:10:52What's sexier?
00:10:53Big breasts or little breasts.
00:10:56You slept with my stripper sister.
00:10:58My wife wants to be a call girl.
00:11:00My grandma stole my man.
00:11:01I want to confront my pimp.
00:11:03I slept with 251 men in 10 hours.
00:11:06I got a 79-year-old woman naked running through the crowd.
00:11:10It's one of my biggest accomplishments.
00:11:12Jerry loved that episode.
00:11:13I married a horse.
00:11:14Have you ever been with a woman?
00:11:16Yes.
00:11:16I mean a human.
00:11:18Yeah.
00:11:18That guy who married his horse.
00:11:20That was a classic.
00:11:23It was a bit of a tug of war with the company that owned the show because they didn't really
00:11:28want it to be that.
00:11:29But we would dabble in those areas of strippers and racists and chairs flying to get ratings
00:11:37and it worked.
00:11:38So it was really about trying to harness those types of shows and do them every day.
00:11:44And the show became massive.
00:11:47Jerry.
00:11:49Cool.
00:11:50Nice job.
00:11:50The lower the bar, the higher the ratings.
00:11:53That is the paradox of The Jerry Springer Show.
00:11:56The show business used to be a couple of executives sitting either in Hollywood or in New York.
00:12:03And they would decide who the big acts will be, who the stars are going to be.
00:12:08And that was the first time we have regular people being who you watch on television.
00:12:16It's the people have become their own entertainment.
00:12:20Then we decide who the stars are, not some executives.
00:12:24And it makes you wonder, why would anybody subject themselves to this level of humiliation?
00:12:31Do you, what do you think of this?
00:12:33Should we have her sit there or do you want to pull up a chair?
00:12:35I got introduced to The Jerry Springer Show back in 2002.
00:12:40I was in a bad relationship.
00:12:43So I knew if I confronted them on national television, that there's nothing he could do about it.
00:12:49That the world would find out how big of a monster he truly is.
00:12:54So when I talked to the producer, he said that he wants us on TV.
00:12:58He was like, I'm going to fly you out.
00:13:00I was like, fly?
00:13:01Plane?
00:13:02Many of these people were never on an airplane, never in a hotel, never on television, certainly.
00:13:07That was a big deal for them.
00:13:09He had a limousine waiting for me.
00:13:11I felt like royalty.
00:13:13I thought I was dreaming for the longest time.
00:13:14It was felt so privileged to be able to be on that stage and to touch the Jerry Springer sign.
00:13:21It makes a guest feel like they are a celebrity when you're whining and dining them and picking them up
00:13:27in a limo.
00:13:29Especially for someone who comes from a small rural town in America.
00:13:34This is thrilling.
00:13:35And these producers are rolling out the red carpet for you.
00:13:39It makes you want to give them exactly what they want.
00:13:43After the show, I felt my empowerment back.
00:13:46I've never seen my boyfriend ever since then.
00:13:50Not long after the air and after I came back home, they reached out to me and said,
00:13:57You were a big hit on this show.
00:13:59People loved you.
00:14:01We want you to come to Jamaica with us.
00:14:04It was for spring break.
00:14:06This resort was a very adult resort.
00:14:09We had breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
00:14:11All paid for.
00:14:13And you had all the drinks you wanted.
00:14:14It's a reciprocity.
00:14:15People feel obliged to reciprocate in some way, meaning deliver when you're on the show.
00:14:21My episode that I aired in Jamaica was I was dating this skinny, scrawny man and having an affair with
00:14:28him with this 600-pound man, which was all fake.
00:14:31It was all made up.
00:14:33And that was pretty wild.
00:14:35What did you think when they gave you this storyline and you're like, wait, my last story was real.
00:14:41This is completely fake.
00:14:43What were you thinking?
00:14:44That no one was going to get hurt.
00:14:46We're doing it for fun.
00:14:47We're doing it for attention.
00:14:5090% of the guests, thank you.
00:14:54They enjoyed it.
00:14:55It was a treat for them.
00:14:57And that nobody was really getting hurt.
00:14:59Go ahead, Edmund.
00:15:02I think that was important.
00:15:05When I was 14, I was a guest on The Jerry Springer Show.
00:15:09I am proud of my heritage.
00:15:11I believe in racial separation, and I don't think there's a thing wrong with believing how I believe.
00:15:18Do you believe we can stop this?
00:15:20No, it's okay.
00:15:21Just give me a second.
00:15:28As far as what I want people to know about The Jerry Springer Show was they destroyed my life, and
00:15:34I'm sure many other people's as well.
00:15:44Once upon a time, I was an associate producer on The Jerry Springer Show.
00:15:51I was a guy in my early 20s, and I quickly went from PA to audience warm-up guy to
00:16:00associate producer.
00:16:02So, the role of the AP on The Jerry Springer Show was for booking the amazing, wonderful people that you
00:16:09saw on that show.
00:16:10The time that I came into the show, I missed the growing pains of getting the show to format.
00:16:19It was starting to become a hit, but I noticed everyone was very young.
00:16:28So, all the producers on the show were all in our 20s.
00:16:31They could have hired the top-notch producers from the entire talk show industry, but why didn't they?
00:16:41If you're an executive at The Jerry Springer Show, you want to find young, impressionable producers who are willing to
00:16:48do whatever it takes to climb the ranks there.
00:16:51You can convince them to do things that a more mature producer would be unwilling to do.
00:16:59I wasn't prepared for the amount of responsibility that came with it.
00:17:05Richard Dominick, he was a producer.
00:17:07Richard used to work as a tabloid reporter.
00:17:11Everybody had one show a week, and he wanted it to be insane.
00:17:17We had different buckets for shows.
00:17:21One of the categories came from these racist shows.
00:17:27But this was kind of his twist on that.
00:17:31What about kids?
00:17:38My father was August Christ the Third.
00:17:42Say something to the camera.
00:17:44And was in the KKK.
00:17:51He was known in the movement, Christian identity, which is a form of Christianity.
00:18:00But their version of it is that white, you know, Caucasians are God's chosen people and not the Jewish people.
00:18:13As soon as my parents divorced, when I was 12, he started bringing us to everything that he went to.
00:18:21Rallies, every Sunday.
00:18:23People are going to see this too, honey.
00:18:25I love you.
00:18:26Violent marches, KKK cross-lightings.
00:18:29So it kind of just became a normal part of life.
00:18:37It was horrible.
00:18:38I hated it.
00:18:40Jennifer.
00:18:41What's wrong?
00:18:42You mad at me?
00:18:43Why?
00:18:44Huh?
00:18:44It was not me at all.
00:18:47No child is born racist.
00:18:49I don't believe that she was born racist.
00:18:51She grew up under the tutelage of a KKK leader, under a white supremacist.
00:18:57So what do we think is going to happen here?
00:19:00Hi.
00:19:02Hi.
00:19:02When I was 14, my father one day just said that he had talked to a friend of his who
00:19:09was
00:19:09also in the, quote, white power movement, and he said that they were looking to have us
00:19:17as guests on the show.
00:19:20And we were going to go on the Jerry Springer show in Chicago, and we didn't have a choice
00:19:27at all.
00:19:31When the Jerry Springer show started, it actually started in Cincinnati, and then subsequently
00:19:35moved to downtown Chicago, the NBC Tower.
00:19:40Watching people talk on the phone, a lot of times people are like, well, how much are you
00:19:45going to pay me?
00:19:45I'll come on there, but you're going to give me money.
00:19:47It's like, we can give you an experience.
00:19:48I can pay for your hotel.
00:19:50We can wine and dine you through Chicago.
00:19:52We can't pay you.
00:19:53You can't buy anything for TV.
00:19:58They flew us in.
00:19:59They paid for everything.
00:20:00Roundtrip airfare, hotel accommodations, unlimited room service, and also paid him.
00:20:07From another producer that we interviewed, I made it very clear that you don't pay people.
00:20:14Absolutely pay people.
00:20:15They gave him $1,000 cash every time we were on that show.
00:20:23And then the next day when we got there, the producers told us exactly what words to use,
00:20:29exactly what to say.
00:20:30They wanted me to say it with as much hate and anger as I possibly could.
00:20:35And they weren't happy until I did that.
00:20:38When all the producers are super young, there was definitely kind of this underlying thought
00:20:46there that like, hey, if you can't pull it off, there's a line of people ready to take
00:20:51your spot.
00:20:55The first time we were there, we were in the green room.
00:20:58My father was in the green room.
00:21:01Producers came in, said something to him, heard them talking about signing the waivers
00:21:07for us to be on TV.
00:21:11Because legality, because my parents had joint legal and joint physical custody, but they
00:21:18were divorced.
00:21:19If your parents have joint custody over you, you do need consent from both of your parents
00:21:26in order to appear on a TV show like Jerry Springer.
00:21:30And I remember thinking, please, God, please, God, hopefully this means we don't have to
00:21:36do it.
00:21:38They stepped out and after a couple of minutes, he came back in and I guess it was brushed
00:21:46under the rug because we still went on.
00:21:49So it makes you wonder, why did her mom consent to her going on this show?
00:21:55Or did the mom have zero awareness of her children going on this show?
00:22:01And did the producers neglect their responsibility in receiving that consent from her mother?
00:22:09Meet 14-year-old Jennifer Kreiss and her sister, 11-year-old Amy.
00:22:13First of all, how cute was she?
00:22:16I mean, let's start with that.
00:22:18In the Bible, it tells us that when Yahweh returns, that's what I call my God.
00:22:24He's going to mark every Jew and they shall be killed.
00:22:28I am Jewish.
00:22:29My daughter is Jewish.
00:22:31Are you saying to me that if given the chance, you would kill my daughter?
00:22:36In a second.
00:22:40Are you okay right now?
00:22:56You don't have to go through these if you don't want to.
00:22:58It's okay.
00:23:00It's okay.
00:23:06I am proud of my heritage.
00:23:09I believe in racial separation, and I don't think there's a thing wrong with believing how I believe.
00:23:16What are you feeling?
00:23:19Embarrassment.
00:23:22Anger.
00:23:23Sadness.
00:23:29That I was ever put in that position by all the adults.
00:23:36How am I going to like somebody that crucified my God?
00:23:38I just felt like I was a circus animal or something under attack.
00:23:43But no one knew the truth.
00:23:47Joining us now is Jennifer and Amy's father, August Kreiss.
00:23:51A lot of people say, well, why didn't you just refuse to go on the show?
00:23:56And they don't understand that I was being abused at home already.
00:24:02I was being sexually abused from as early as my memories go back.
00:24:09I was a kid.
00:24:11What choice did I have?
00:24:24If you're living with a father who is sexually abusing you, there is a power dynamic there that you are
00:24:32going to feel pressured to uphold.
00:24:34And acting like a little racist was what was going to keep her safe and keep her in her father's
00:24:40good graces.
00:24:42The producers knew how I was being raised was abusive in and of itself.
00:24:49So why would they want to add to that by exploiting me for that same reason?
00:24:55How are they any better?
00:24:58When the show was over, everyone was trained to get these people out.
00:25:09We had a thing we would say, you pick them up in a limo and send them home in a
00:25:13cab.
00:25:14And that's kind of how it worked.
00:25:17And then we would literally read off of a script.
00:25:20I could be wrong on the exact number, but this episode cost $92,000 to make.
00:25:25And everything that you said on this episode, we are accepting as the truth.
00:25:28If you go to the press or to the media and state that anything you said on the show is
00:25:33not true,
00:25:34we will sue you for the entire cost of the show.
00:25:36And let's be honest, these weren't super educated people, most of them, right?
00:25:43And it was very cruel and it made me feel like crap.
00:25:52After we left Jerry Springer, we ended up moving about five hours north of where we were.
00:25:58I started making friends and it wasn't long, maybe a month or so after we had gotten there, that it
00:26:04aired.
00:26:04We believe that blacks are not equal to whites and when the time comes, God will demand us to kill
00:26:09all Jews.
00:26:10People immediately saw it and started spreading it around.
00:26:14I was 14 years old just trying to come into my own as a teenager and I was already dealing
00:26:22with the backlash of his beliefs in school.
00:26:28I was threatened on a daily basis.
00:26:31I had to start carrying mace to school.
00:26:33They tried jumping me a handful of times.
00:26:36I just had to deal with it.
00:26:43Ultimately, television doesn't ruin society because we watch.
00:26:47Showing the underbelly is not necessarily a bad thing.
00:26:51Exposing it to the world, to the light is fine.
00:26:54The problem is they drag their kids in with them and that's a bridge too far.
00:26:59The producers knew what was happening.
00:27:01Where's the line here?
00:27:04The first executive producer of the show was me.
00:27:08The two shows that I came up with, Sally and Jerry, were both doing pretty well.
00:27:13So the company, it moved me up.
00:27:16So I went from executive producer to senior vice president of programming or something like that.
00:27:22My role was to oversee all these shows and I was still very involved.
00:27:26I made a girl by the name of Terry Murphy, the executive producer of the show.
00:27:32When Terry left, we needed a replacement.
00:27:35I had Richard Dominick with me from the beginning.
00:27:39I felt he was there long enough he put his time in and that he could do it.
00:27:43So a new executive producer comes in, Richard Dominick.
00:27:52This is a guy who walked around the office with like a Louisville slugger.
00:27:59He has that Chicago gangster vibe going on.
00:28:03And this is Richard with his beer and cigar and Jerry.
00:28:08Very intimidating.
00:28:10Very scary.
00:28:11People moved out of his way when he walked down the hall.
00:28:14And on top of that, then if he's yelling at you with a bat in his hand,
00:28:18which I saw him do that to a lot of the other APs and people around me,
00:28:23one time he said,
00:28:24if you don't get this right, I will throw you out that window.
00:28:29Now, of course, you know, he didn't quote unquote mean it,
00:28:32but it's only a different time.
00:28:36There were people that used to contact me that didn't like the way they were treated.
00:28:39I wasn't there.
00:28:41So I can't confirm any of it.
00:28:43I can't deny it.
00:28:45I came in.
00:28:46Everybody was on their best behavior.
00:28:48And to my knowledge, everything was okay.
00:28:51During my time there,
00:28:53I felt really bad for the women in the office.
00:28:58And there were a lot of them.
00:29:01And seeing these poor girls crying,
00:29:04running out of the office, being humiliated,
00:29:07and that was bad.
00:29:09There was harassment in the office.
00:29:11I mean, I saw an AP get duct taped to her chair.
00:29:14That's not normal behavior.
00:29:21I feel a little uncomfortable talking about it.
00:29:26I mean, the reason you probably had a very hard time getting any women to talk about their time there
00:29:33is out of here.
00:29:37Talk show industry is very small.
00:29:39And understandably, many people can be afraid to come forward about specifics because they're very worried about going against their
00:29:45superiors and ruining their reputation.
00:29:49Everybody that worked there, that lasted, that climbed the ladder, they were all willing to do it.
00:29:56So, one time, a guest in the green room was irritated.
00:30:02Gonna walk the show, gonna leave, gonna do this, gonna do that.
00:30:05And I told my production assistant, I said, when you go in this green room, shake your ass for this
00:30:12guy.
00:30:13Because I don't need him leaving.
00:30:15She's like, of course.
00:30:16We'd say that to every staff member every day.
00:30:19Sexual harassment was a daily thing for everyone.
00:30:24I know that a producer, she had to expose herself for a show segment.
00:30:31She did what she had to do to save the show.
00:30:34I've always thought that if you were a producer on our show, you could one day be a producer on
00:30:43any other show.
00:30:44Because it would be a cake war compared to it.
00:30:54Bert Dubrow loved ratings as much as anybody else, and he knew how to get them.
00:30:58And he brought in the guy that he thought would take Springer to the next level, Richard Dominick.
00:31:07And I remember hearing him on phone calls, you know, saying, yeah, do it.
00:31:12Turn up the heat, Richard.
00:31:14And he let him loose.
00:31:18I remember a day when we were told, do whatever you want to make it work.
00:31:25There are no more rules.
00:31:27For the previous couple of years, once in a while, we'd have a fight, and you'd see the ratings pop
00:31:33on those shows, and all the producers kind of went, all right, let's do it.
00:31:42It was like the WWF out there.
00:31:46And people were throwing chairs, and people were hitting each other.
00:31:50It got crazy.
00:31:51It became a cliche, and a very, very, very successful cliche.
00:31:59The producers are not psychologists, they're not mental health professionals, but they knew exactly how to manipulate it, to get
00:32:08the kind of ratings that they wanted.
00:32:10I noticed pretty quick what the secret was.
00:32:14You want me to give you a secret?
00:32:15Here's how we got them to fight in the beginning on Springer, post-Clan fight.
00:32:22Let's say that I have two brothers in a conflict.
00:32:26When you're prepping the guests, you tell one of them, now, look, if your brother says something you don't like,
00:32:36you can yell at him.
00:32:38You can get up in his face, you can even spit on him, but whatever you do, don't hit him.
00:32:44Then you don't tell the other person any of that.
00:32:47Once you produce one person to get up and spit in someone's face, and then you don't give any instruction
00:32:53to the other one, the other one is going to haul off and knock the hell out of the one
00:32:56who did it, and boom, you got to fight.
00:33:02Was there ever anything you put together that you were like, I feel responsible for how that turned out?
00:33:08Yes, there was a love triangle with three people out of New York.
00:33:17One guy was a big guy.
00:33:19The other one was a smaller kid who had the girl, and the big guy's like, Jimmy, I got to
00:33:25talk to you, I got to talk to you.
00:33:27And so he throws everybody out of the green room, and I'm like, what's up?
00:33:32He goes, I'm going to kill this kid, and I'm like, calm down.
00:33:37I go, what?
00:33:38Well, I'm going to hit him, but they're going to stop me.
00:33:41They're going to stop me, they're going to stop me.
00:33:43And I'm like, thinking to myself, all right, I can get this guy to hit him.
00:33:47All right.
00:33:48I go, hit him, and I'm going to tell you how to do it.
00:33:53I said, pretend, you're going to walk up to him and put your hand out to shake his hand, close
00:34:00your fist, and crack him with the other hand.
00:34:05I go, by the time you hit this kid, he'll be laid out.
00:34:10No one's going to see it coming.
00:34:12Nobody.
00:34:13Security's not going to move that because you're attempting to reconcile.
00:34:18He did it.
00:34:21Cracked him.
00:34:25He busted his lip open, and it was blood, and I got in big trouble.
00:34:31Security had to stop it at the right time to still give the show, you know, what the show was
00:34:36looking for, but to make sure no one got seriously injured.
00:34:39Or you could be sued.
00:34:41It's not easy to do.
00:34:43It was short and quick, so I was screamed at, yelled at.
00:34:49But it's probably the only time I admitted that to anyone.
00:34:53And I do feel responsible.
00:35:05My name is Cheryl Racinos.
00:35:07I was 13 when I first ran away from home.
00:35:10During those years, I was homeless.
00:35:14Being 17 and homeless is a risk.
00:35:17Not just because of predators, but being 17 meant that I was an unaccompanied minor, and I could at any
00:35:24point be arrested for being homeless.
00:35:27So one day, when I was 17, I was in squats, which were abandoned buildings or different places.
00:35:34There were some older-looking guys that were recruiters for the Jerry Sprinter show, and offering, like, if you go
00:35:40on this show, we'll listen to your story, and we'll fly you to Chicago.
00:35:43You can stay in a nice hotel.
00:35:44We'll feed you, and we'll give you 200 bucks.
00:35:48That's a pretty appealing offer.
00:35:50The problem is, the producers were mining for guests who were at the lowest point in their lives.
00:35:56So there's a desperation behind their decision to actually appear on the show, even if they have no idea what
00:36:03they're getting themselves into.
00:36:05At that time, I had just found out that I was pregnant.
00:36:10And I didn't really know what I was going to do next.
00:36:14And so this $200 would go towards probably, like, baby clothes or diapers or something.
00:36:20Those are an easy sell for somebody who's hungry.
00:36:25They picked us up the next morning, again, with another limo fully stocked, and they brought us to the studio.
00:36:33We weren't prepared for what was about to happen.
00:36:36Please welcome Tanim and Cheryl to the show.
00:36:40There were a few questions from the audience.
00:36:42Why are you on the streets?
00:36:44But then quickly interrupted with,
00:36:45You go out and get you a job.
00:36:47Got a job.
00:36:47Go home.
00:36:48You need to cut your hair and go home.
00:36:50You need to stop having...
00:36:55I'm actually very troubled by this phenomenon called stochastic terrorism, where people act out violently on people because they've just...
00:37:03They've dehumanized them so much.
00:37:05And this is where that began.
00:37:08This is where that started, where television started to dehumanize.
00:37:12You need to stop doing the drafts and save up the money and back your home.
00:37:16Like, the same thing over and over again, but none of those solved our housing issue.
00:37:19Look, we like to be in a football game with audience and we like to be part of the fans
00:37:23and we like to clap and react together, but that can have a more sinister turn where people adopt the
00:37:30attitudes of the crowd, which is often aggressive and could even be bloodthirsty.
00:37:35I felt angry and powerless and Jerry, you know, fed into it.
00:37:41But I'm going to be the mean guy right now.
00:37:43Let's say you're asking for change on the street.
00:37:45Got to be some guy that looks at you and say, hey, you know what?
00:37:48Go and get yourself a job, work for something and then you'll have money.
00:37:51What would have been nice and what would have happened on a Sally Jessie Raphael or an Oprah or whatever
00:37:58is there would have been a segment where we put this poor soul into some type of shelter and help
00:38:06her.
00:38:07That wasn't what that would have, like, killed the vibe.
00:38:10And that's a big difference.
00:38:14I was kind of shell shocked.
00:38:16And at the end of the episode, the security guy handed us each a very thick envelope of $1 bills
00:38:21and stood in front of the door while Jerry exited.
00:38:25And all of us kind of had a bad feeling when that envelope was handed to us and we rapidly
00:38:31counted the money.
00:38:34And he had given us each $100.
00:38:38It definitely wasn't the $200 he'd promised.
00:38:41That was when I knew we'd been exploited.
00:38:46I don't understand how you do that, how you connect with a person and then cast them out.
00:38:51I can't even, I can't imagine that.
00:38:55In most cases, you never saw him again.
00:39:00There was no margin for error.
00:39:03You had to have your show ready each and every week.
00:39:08We got to book those guests.
00:39:09We got to get the show in here.
00:39:12If a guest cancels, it's because you haven't done your job right.
00:39:16And it's like, you don't want to get fired.
00:39:19If I couldn't book people,
00:39:20we had binders and binders of people that called the show.
00:39:26And we would never stop calling you.
00:39:29And then I got a call.
00:39:30They called back, said, let's try again.
00:39:35Let's bring you back.
00:39:46After the first episode, Eric, the show would just call when they maybe needed a bump in their ratings.
00:39:52I don't, I don't know.
00:39:56My father didn't really tell me every single little detail.
00:40:00It would just be like, oh, Jerry Springer called.
00:40:03We're going again.
00:40:04And he did not have a job.
00:40:06So he wanted the money.
00:40:10The second time we were on there, I was about 15.
00:40:14It might have been called a racist family.
00:40:18Only a week ago, we had a program where we brought back some of our most memorable guests in celebration.
00:40:23We used to have him on a lot.
00:40:25So whenever we did race shows, you know, we likely had him on.
00:40:29This particular guest would often provoke Jerry.
00:40:33Are you threatening me on television?
00:40:35Are you threatening me?
00:40:35How am I threatening you?
00:40:36I'm asking you.
00:40:37No, I would never threaten you.
00:40:38You're not threatening me either.
00:40:39I'm making you a promise.
00:40:41Jerry Springer was a minority himself.
00:40:43Jerry Springer was Jewish.
00:40:45He was the descendant of Holocaust survivors.
00:40:47So he knows the cost of that kind of rhetoric.
00:40:52Three weeks before Hitler goes into Poland, mom and dad, they were let out of Germany.
00:40:58But grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, they all were exterminated.
00:41:02It became visceral for him in that moment.
00:41:05Okay, you're off the show.
00:41:06I don't understand.
00:41:13Oh, my gosh.
00:41:15And to be fair, think about Jennifer's Nazi salute there, right?
00:41:19That's what Jennifer did.
00:41:20She was being abused.
00:41:22She was a mess.
00:41:23She was under the influence of this horrible parent.
00:41:24I mean, that's where that comes from, right?
00:41:30I was happy we were being thrown off.
00:41:34That we were getting through.
00:41:35I wanted to go home.
00:41:37They ended up bringing us back a third time.
00:41:40Jennifer, why don't you come on out now?
00:41:42When you see me on the Jerry Springer show when I was 17, that was not me.
00:41:46I think by that point, I was just starting to get really mad because I did not want to be
00:41:53there.
00:41:53I didn't want to be saying these things.
00:41:55I didn't want anything to do with it.
00:41:57Why do you want to hate?
00:41:58Why not live this one chance you have on earth, just trying to be as kind and as nice?
00:42:02Because this is the way God tells it in the Bible.
00:42:04This is my interpretation of how God tells it in the Bible.
00:42:07That has to be manufactured from home, right?
00:42:10And by the way, it's softening.
00:42:11It's not as harsh as it was when she was 14.
00:42:13I'm sitting here listening.
00:42:16I mean, you're sick.
00:42:17Listen, me sitting here, I'm going to expect you to say that.
00:42:20I'm going to expect any one of you to say that.
00:42:22I don't care.
00:42:24So you can really see the anger in me as well.
00:42:29Let's bring out now her dad, August.
00:42:36It's like he's impersonating a priest.
00:42:39And you teach and God takes.
00:42:41Is that what you're saying?
00:42:42God tells us that hate the evil and love the good.
00:42:45I hate the evil.
00:42:46I hate you.
00:42:47Yeah.
00:42:48Okay.
00:42:48These people went out of their way, like he said, to get their goat.
00:42:52He was angry.
00:42:55Why don't you shut up?
00:42:56Why can't we ever bring our point across?
00:42:58Matt, Matt, the fuck.
00:43:00Okay.
00:43:00Okay.
00:43:01We know that the six million people died.
00:43:03Trust me.
00:43:03No, we don't know.
00:43:04They're not, they're not hiding.
00:43:05I know about 30 minutes.
00:43:06You shut your face right now.
00:43:08Come on again.
00:43:12I honestly thought that the audience was going to rush the stage and trample and hurt us.
00:43:20Jerry really was upset.
00:43:23And you could see that was completely out of character for him.
00:43:26Completely.
00:43:29We went out afterwards and we talked about it.
00:43:32The show was about dysfunction.
00:43:34So these neo-Nazis certainly fit into that category.
00:43:39And so I lost my temper on one show.
00:43:42But this is America.
00:43:43And if you want to get on television, it's about, it's free society.
00:43:49You know, I'm not allowed to censor you.
00:43:50I'm not allowed to censor you because I disagree you can't be on.
00:43:54Jerry was such a huge believer in freedom of speech, freedom of expression.
00:43:59I'm sorry about that.
00:44:00But now let's continue.
00:44:01But Jerry was not happy that it got him to that point.
00:44:04Jerry thought he was better than that.
00:44:05And, you know, we just sat and talked about it, hugged each other.
00:44:10It was, you know, it was a moment for us.
00:44:14Listen, when we look back through history, there are plenty examples of what happens when
00:44:20you platform violent, racist rhetoric.
00:44:25Jerry chose to give people a platform no matter what their views were.
00:44:30But Jerry always had the last word because at the end of the show, Jerry would give his
00:44:35unfiltered final thought.
00:44:38See, the final thought was what brought it all together.
00:44:42It really was nothing more than Jerry's commentary at the end of the news.
00:44:47And a lot of people don't know, Jerry wrote him.
00:44:50Jerry wrote him on the fly, in the moment.
00:44:53My hope is that sometime in these kids' lives, somebody breaks through and saves them.
00:44:59In the meantime, and until that happens, if ever, we all can only hope that they don't
00:45:05have children.
00:45:09When I'm listening to it again, I thought, it kind of feels like victim shaming.
00:45:17How dare you?
00:45:20You're abusing me as well.
00:45:22You and your entire staff.
00:45:25For money.
00:45:28How is that any better?
00:45:32When I turned 18 and I married and got the hell out of there, my dad, I reported him in
00:45:4196, after I left myself and one of my other siblings.
00:45:45And, um, they refused to even investigate.
00:45:51I believe it wasn't investigated because of who I was.
00:45:56But then he was arrested in 2014 for sexually abusing kids.
00:46:16The only good thing that came out of that was my mother was able to get custody of my siblings.
00:46:24Full custody.
00:46:26She should feel proud of herself, ultimately, as a survivor.
00:46:31He passed away the end of May, 2025.
00:46:35No, no, no.
00:46:36I'm not letting you off the hook.
00:46:37People are torturing themselves.
00:46:38People that are in these terrible positions.
00:46:40They go on these shows and they get mocked and they get ridiculed and you use them to make money.
00:46:47The people come on the show because they want to come on the show and talk about things that
00:46:52are going on in their life.
00:46:5399% of the time, it's not a very serious issue, but it's not life changing.
00:46:57And then they get taunted by an audience that's making fun of them and laughing at them.
00:47:01If they don't want to be on the show, they don't have to.
00:47:05They do not get paid.
00:47:05That doesn't make it right, though.
00:47:07When I've interviewed Jerry, he will usually describe his show as this stupid show I do.
00:47:12My show is a circus.
00:47:14I mean, that's all it is.
00:47:15It's stupid.
00:47:16I brought down Western Civilization.
00:47:18No, it's okay.
00:47:19Look, it's a stupid show.
00:47:20I apologize.
00:47:20I'm sorry.
00:47:21This is just television.
00:47:22This is just a silly show.
00:47:24It's just entertainment.
00:47:26Well, if you continuously minimize the impact of the show, then you don't have to be held
00:47:32accountable for some of the negative consequences that have taken place.
00:47:36No more trash!
00:47:38There's always been something that emerges on the cultural landscape that previous generations
00:47:45worry, in particular, that they're going to destroy the youth.
00:47:49I mean, listen, there were talks of canceling the show.
00:47:52I mean, that happened.
00:47:54Stations were angry.
00:47:56By that point, the show had been on television for seven years.
00:48:00We don't want Jerry Springer on TV!
00:48:03You better feel responsible, because you've encouraged it, you've glorified it, and you've legitimized
00:48:10it.
00:48:10It's a television show, and get real.
00:48:14Give the public a little more credit than that.
00:48:17It's a television show, and that's the end of that.
00:48:19I don't think it had the capability of destroying America.
00:48:31I work for the Hollywood Police Department, and I handled all cases involving child abuse, physical, sexual, emotional abuse on
00:48:38children.
00:48:40I think it was 1998, a teacher called me up at the Hollywood PD, and I got information that this
00:48:46young girl, eight years old, had been sexually molested by her brothers, and had told her teacher
00:48:52at school, the first thing I'd done was talk to the child.
00:48:58She had told me that her mom would leave at 6.30 in the morning, and these boys at that
00:49:03time, her older brother, 15 and 13, would engage in sexual activity with her.
00:49:10So I ended up picking up these two boys, 15 and 13, at the time.
00:49:15During the course of their statements, I talked to this 15-year-old, it was like nothing.
00:49:19It just struck me as very cold-hearted.
00:49:23He told me incidences, where he would give her candy, and have her perform other type
00:49:28of sexual acts on him, and his brother was involved.
00:49:32So I let him, what do you call this?
00:49:35And his remark was incest.
00:49:38I says, okay, and where did you learn about this?
00:49:43He said, Jerry Springer Show.
00:49:54I don't watch Jerry Springer.
00:49:55I don't know if he ever did a show on incest.
00:50:00Eight months before the investigation, Jerry airs an episode entitled,
00:50:05I Am Pregnant By My Brother.
00:50:08In this episode, a 17-year-old girl named Heather has been impregnated by her 16-year-old half-brother.
00:50:16So you grew up separately?
00:50:18Yes, we did.
00:50:19But knowing that he's your blood brother, wouldn't that say to you, you know what,
00:50:23this is not a guy I sleep with?
00:50:26I love these shows.
00:50:28There's a sister sleeping with her brother.
00:50:31What?
00:50:33And I'm not saying it's not a great topic, and everybody in the world should do it.
00:50:38That's not what I'm saying.
00:50:39I'm saying, for that time then, when we were doing these kinds of shows, this was the kind of stuff.
00:50:46I'm not saying that this particular episode is what the two teenage boys were referring to,
00:50:50but it did just air a few months earlier, and now when things like this start happening,
00:50:55it is getting a lot of heat in the press.
00:50:57Two teenagers charged with a horrible crime are blaming a TV show for the idea.
00:51:03The suspects say an episode of the Jerry Springer show, which dealt with incest,
00:51:06was the motivation for the attack.
00:51:08Using us as an excuse for bad behavior or to do something to your sister is absolutely ludicrous.
00:51:16You know, they'll say it at the end of the show.
00:51:18This is not something we promote.
00:51:20This is something that was put out there, you know, as a shock value, more shock value.
00:51:26If you read stories about this case, there's a lot of obfuscation, there's not a lot of detail,
00:51:30because these are minors, and they don't want to expose them to every detail.
00:51:35But the reality is, study shows that television doesn't cause this type of behavior.
00:51:41However, television, radio, images, Jerry Springer show, did have a tendency to normalize these things.
00:51:50It's not causation, but desensitization.
00:51:54And it shows here, because the older brother acted as if this crime was just inconsequential.
00:51:58When I took the statement from the 15-year-old, I gotta say, it really shocked me.
00:52:06His demeanor, which was very nonchalant, as a matter of fact.
00:52:14When he had made mention of the Jerry Springer show, it kind of like that it was okay.
00:52:21I mean, I've seen it on TV, so what's the big deal?
00:52:24I mean, wow, he's cold-hearted.
00:52:26And that's why I said, you know, this thing's got to be done.
00:52:40After about five years of doing the show,
00:52:43it started to change into something that I didn't really want to be a part of it.
00:52:48There are some things that were never meant to be aired out on television.
00:52:54It wasn't the forum.
00:52:58And I'd pack up my little box and walk out of it.
00:53:03Never went back.
00:53:07There were a number of different categories that you would see on the Jerry Springer show.
00:53:11You would see cheating stories, love gone wrong, racism was a big one.
00:53:17And now, showtime.
00:53:21We would do things above and beyond what the normal production crews would do.
00:53:27I've always thought that if you were a producer on our show, you could one day be a producer on
00:53:37any other show.
00:53:39Because it would be a cake war compared to it.
00:53:42We reached Manson in prison.
00:53:46We wanted to do a satellite shoot with him.
00:53:50We were going to do a cannibal.
00:53:52A true-to-life cannibal.
00:53:54I've seen a guy who's murdered somebody in cold blood, chopped them up, and ate them.
00:54:02Then there was another category called secrets revealed.
00:54:07Inherently, the producers are withholding information, and one person doesn't know that it's coming.
00:54:14The result is completely unpredictable.
00:54:19Every time a talk show runs, like Jerry, if you remember doing a toss-out to break, you'll see,
00:54:29do you have a secret that you're keeping from someone?
00:54:34If so, we want to know.
00:54:36Call Jerry.
00:54:37The majority of the guests came from those leads, and they want to tell you their whole messy life.
00:54:44And out of that, you figure out an angle for the episode.
00:54:53We did the Surprise, I'm a Drag Queen show.
00:54:56And in this show, I booked the sweetest little old lady from Alabama.
00:55:03Her son was probably in his late 30s, early 40s.
00:55:08And he had a surprise for her.
00:55:11And at this point, I was polished.
00:55:13I could get anybody on that show.
00:55:15If I wanted you, I got you, right?
00:55:17And I told her, you know your son has a surprise for you?
00:55:22He does.
00:55:23And he wants to share it with you on the Jerry Springer show.
00:55:27Jerry?
00:55:28And I said, and I'm going to fly you out to Chicago.
00:55:32We're going to put you up in a swanky hotel.
00:55:35I'm going to pick you up in a limo.
00:55:37And you're going to get to meet Jerry.
00:55:39And your son's got a surprise for you.
00:55:41What's his surprise?
00:55:43Well, that's the surprise.
00:55:44You may like the surprise.
00:55:45You may not.
00:55:46But, hey, you're going to get to come to Chicago and meet Jerry.
00:55:51So it's time for the surprise.
00:55:52And she's sitting on the stage.
00:55:55And her son comes out.
00:55:58And he's dressed in full drag.
00:56:02And he had written a song.
00:56:06All the lyrics written bashing his mother, who, to my knowledge, at that point, was probably
00:56:13the sweetest person I had ever booked on the show.
00:56:16And she sat there with so much class and integrity and just took it.
00:56:27Segment ends, and I go backstage to check on her.
00:56:29And she had just burst into tears in my arms.
00:56:35And how could you do this to me?
00:56:40And I was just, you know, I was only a kid in my 20s.
00:56:46But I just knew it was wrong.
00:56:49You know, it was very wrong.
00:56:51And it just felt horrible.
00:56:54And that night, I called Bert Dubrow.
00:56:56And I said, Bert, I quit.
00:57:05In 1997, Multimedia Entertainment was bought by Universal.
00:57:11Richard, he had an edge that worked for the show at the time.
00:57:16And it exploded.
00:57:18It did wonders for Jerry.
00:57:20And it did wonders for the Universal.
00:57:23Richard Dominick created a show that you literally couldn't look away from.
00:57:28There was so much drama going on.
00:57:31People don't look away from those things.
00:57:33We were a bunch of young, competitive producers who all wanted to make the best shows.
00:57:39And ratings were kind of the benchmark of your success.
00:57:44And so you wanted your shows to rate.
00:57:47You wanted them to rate better than everybody else.
00:57:49Like, there was a lot of internal competition.
00:57:52People are putting money into that station.
00:57:57And if they're putting their money into it, they want to make sure it's successful.
00:58:02Ratings, ratings, ratings.
00:58:03Our job was to get ratings.
00:58:05And we did.
00:58:06In 1998, The Jerry Springer Show beat Oprah in the ratings, bringing in 8 million viewers.
00:58:15Oprah Winfrey Show was not just the gold standard in talk.
00:58:20It was the ultimate success.
00:58:22Ratings in television today are nothing like during our heyday.
00:58:29Probably a year or two after Universal took over.
00:58:32My contract was up.
00:58:33Universal took over.
00:58:36And I went on.
00:58:38The show kept going under Richard Dominick.
00:58:41Now The Jerry Springer Show is evolving.
00:58:43But how far do you let that go?
00:58:46The most volatile ones are those secret shows.
00:58:49There are a lot of young people, though, that they don't admit it, but they really want to be famous.
00:58:55They want to be a star.
00:58:56And it's understandable because it looks so attractive.
00:58:59But it isn't all wonderful.
00:59:02All the, I have a secret, I'm going to expose something, they're very dangerous.
00:59:08Please meet Eleanor.
00:59:10So on May 7, 2000, a show was taped entitled Secret Mistresses Confronted.
00:59:16She says her husband's ex-wife needs to know what's really going on.
00:59:23What's going on?
00:59:25Well, Jerry, I'm here to tell you.
00:59:27I mean, I really hate my husband's ex-wife.
00:59:30Sounds like classic Jerry.
00:59:32The episode is all about two women who are involved with the same man, Eleanor and Nancy.
00:59:39Eleanor claims that Nancy, her husband Ralph's ex-wife, has been stalking them.
00:59:46She has stalked us.
00:59:48She has driven by our home, peeks in our window.
00:59:52Trying to get in touch with Ralph and trying to reconnect with him romantically.
00:59:59That's Richard Dominick there at the podium watching.
01:00:01Okay, here she is.
01:00:03Nan.
01:00:07Nancy comes on the show and she looks like a total fish out of water.
01:00:12And like she doesn't want to be there.
01:00:14Ralph and I are trying to restore our marriage and this, uh...
01:00:20And this trailer trash won't leave us alone.
01:00:23Nancy looks visibly uncomfortable while Eleanor is reared up.
01:00:28She's ready for this fight with Nancy.
01:00:31Nancy, she's not willing to engage in this confrontation in the same way that Eleanor is.
01:00:37So you can tell immediately something is off.
01:00:40See, there's no room in our bedroom for another fat lady like you.
01:00:46Stand up! Stand up!
01:00:47I've fucked him six times last night.
01:00:49Stand up! Stand up! Stand up!
01:00:52And why I never watched Jerry Springer.
01:00:55It's just so uncomfortable.
01:00:56And then Ralph comes out.
01:00:58Here he is, Ralph!
01:01:08He's odd.
01:01:09He just seems odd and detached and something's very, very wrong with Ralph.
01:01:14The matter of the fact, a month ago I married Ellie and I do love Eleanor.
01:01:19Ralph wants to stay with Eleanor.
01:01:20What in fact happens during the show is Ralph and his new wife, Eleanor, ridicule and demean Nancy.
01:01:27Ralph doesn't...
01:01:28He loves the excitement.
01:01:29No, he doesn't want you, Nancy.
01:01:30He loves the excitement.
01:01:31You're old.
01:01:32You're fat.
01:01:33No!
01:01:34The producers knew that if they told one person to antagonize one person to the point of torture,
01:01:40that human nature says, this other party is going to respond with force.
01:01:45Nancy does the exact opposite of what you think would happen.
01:01:49She doesn't engage.
01:01:50She didn't talk.
01:01:51She couldn't speak.
01:01:52In fact, she walks off the stage.
01:01:54He's telling you he doesn't want to be with you.
01:01:56That's fine.
01:01:58Bye.
01:01:59I thought that Nancy had a lot of class and dignity, and it was truly a departure from
01:02:05the way that we have seen most guests on Jerry Springer behave.
01:02:11At the same time, Ralph is celebrating with Eleanor and so mean to the ex-wife.
01:02:17This was the man that she thought loved her, completely humiliating her in front of this audience.
01:02:25I mean, it was brutal.
01:02:27The show taped on May 7th, but it didn't air until July 24th, 2000.
01:03:05In July of 2000, we were sent to a welfare check, so we just went to the house,
01:03:12checked the front door, no answer, and then started walking around the house.
01:03:20There was a side window that you could see, and we could see
01:03:26someone laying on the kitchen floor.
01:03:35I got a call from communications telling me that they wanted me to respond to a possible homicide.
01:03:44The victim was Nancy Campbell Panitz.
01:03:48And she was brutally beaten in her own home.
01:03:56She wasn't just killed, she was, there was a lot of rage there.
01:04:01There was at least two areas where she had put up a struggle.
01:04:08It appeared that she barricaded the front door.
01:04:13She also disabled the exterior garage door.
01:04:17So that kind of told me that she was scared of something.
01:04:24This case, there wasn't a ton of evidence, physical evidence, other than the victim.
01:04:31There were several partial bloody shoe prints
01:04:35that were off to the right of where the victim was, underneath her arms.
01:04:42She couldn't have let those shoe prints.
01:04:45She was barefoot.
01:04:48I was able to notice that there was some lines on her face.
01:04:52So I did something that I never did before and never had to do again.
01:04:57I got clear plastic, and I put it up on the side of her face where I saw the lines.
01:05:03And I used the sharpie marker to mark the lines,
01:05:06and it was consistent with the shoe pattern that had been on the floor.
01:05:12Which, to me, represents somebody was stomping on her face.
01:05:18Her face is completely distorted by trauma.
01:05:21She was stomped to death.
01:05:23It's profoundly violent.
01:05:25This was cold-blooded stuff.
01:05:34Ralph was captured, and the shoes he was wearing when he was arrested,
01:05:38they were able to match them to the crime scene.
01:05:40At some point, I learned that they had been on the Jerry Springer show.
01:05:46And that it had aired that day of the homicide.
01:05:52It just sort of became the Jerry Springer homicide
01:05:55and not the Nancy Panitz Campbell homicide.
01:05:59Why did you decide to interview us?
01:06:03Because Nancy's no longer with us, and I can be a voice for Nancy.
01:06:10Before Nancy was killed, Nancy made an appointment to see me about Ralph.
01:06:17Nancy met Ralph online.
01:06:19They dated for a while, and they got married,
01:06:23and then things kind of took a turn for the worse.
01:06:28There had been acts of domestic violence in the past.
01:06:34He had threatened to kill her, that he had threatened to hurt her.
01:06:38That he had actually battered her and hit her and shoved her in the past.
01:06:43There had been a petition for restraining order filed in 1998.
01:06:50There had been another petition for restraining order filed from Nancy against Ralph again in 1999,
01:06:58which is when they had gotten divorced.
01:07:04There had been a interloper in their marriage.
01:07:09A woman by the name of Eleanor, who is also part of the reason of the demise of the marriage.
01:07:17With domestic violence, there is this vicious cycle that unfolds where someone who knows that their partner is abusive continue
01:07:26to return to them.
01:07:27But what the victim doesn't realize is that they are actually putting themselves in danger.
01:07:33In this particular case, it was either Ralph or Eleanor who would have called in to be on the show
01:07:38to confront Nancy on national television.
01:07:41But then it would be up to them to convince Nancy.
01:07:46She said she got a call, and I think Ralph had said to her,
01:07:49you know, I'm in Germany, and I don't have the money to get home.
01:07:52And if you go on the Jerry Springer show with me,
01:07:55they'll pay for me to fly over, and then we can live happily ever after again.
01:08:00What Nancy had told me was she was going to be told that Eleanor was out of the picture,
01:08:05and that her and Ralph were going to reconcile, which is not what happened.
01:08:12The producers had an opportunity to look into Ralph's background, to conduct a simple background check.
01:08:20We didn't do formal background checks on people.
01:08:25We brought people that had restraining orders.
01:08:26We brought people that were not supposed to leave their state.
01:08:32There had been public records which Ralph had been arrested for felony battery that got reduced to a misdemeanor.
01:08:39And Ralph had been on probation for battery at the time that they were on Jerry Springer.
01:08:46And I don't understand why the producers couldn't just vet these people.
01:08:52It is so easy to check the public records in the counties where they live in.
01:08:58This isn't, like, rocket science.
01:09:01This isn't brain surgery.
01:09:02This is just, like, doing a little quick computer search.
01:09:05We were more concerned had they been on another show,
01:09:07because we didn't want to bring people that had been on other shows,
01:09:09and they were just, like, bouncing from show to show, like, telling their story.
01:09:13We were more worried about that than if they were actually criminals.
01:09:17That's a big mistake.
01:09:22They should check the court records on people.
01:09:26Take that long.
01:09:28And another death
01:09:32acts as the series finale.
01:09:42After Nancy left the Jerry Springer show, refusing to continue to participate,
01:09:49and when she got back to Sarasota, at some point after that,
01:09:52Ralph tried to make amends with her.
01:09:55She had alleged that he was physically violent to her again.
01:09:58And Ralph then decided he was going to reconcile again with Eleanor,
01:10:04and he moved Eleanor into Nancy's house.
01:10:12Nancy was kicked out of her house, and she was living on the street in her car.
01:10:18So I ended up working to get Ralph out of the house,
01:10:22and that was my main focus.
01:10:27The morning of July 24th of 2000,
01:10:30on the day Nancy was killed,
01:10:32we went to court for a hearing
01:10:34on the petition for protection against domestic violence,
01:10:39which was pretty much synonymous with what we would call a restraining order.
01:10:43The judge granted Nancy's petition
01:10:46and gave Nancy possession of the house.
01:10:50And I remember I gave her a big hug.
01:10:54And that she should go home.
01:10:56And that was the last time I saw her.
01:11:01Ralph was removed from the house,
01:11:04and Ralph had gone to the bar.
01:11:10And when he was at the bar,
01:11:12the Jerry Springer show aired.
01:11:16And there's Nancy, like, just right there.
01:11:21You know, just the coincidence of that was just kind of amazing.
01:11:31This is the police interview with the bartender who saw Ralph and Eleanor.
01:11:35Ralph got here about 12, 12.15.
01:11:39Did they make any comments?
01:11:41Were they happy to show, upset with the show?
01:11:43She said how she stopped, and she looked in windows.
01:11:47The bartender says he seemed kind of agitated a little bit,
01:11:50in and out of the seat.
01:11:51I firmly believe that the guy, as he's drinking,
01:11:58that he looked like the villain.
01:12:03So, now you're humiliated
01:12:06in front of whoever's in this bar.
01:12:10People are telling him how bad he looks.
01:12:13The guy snaps and does it.
01:12:15Commits murder.
01:12:20You're gonna make me cry.
01:12:30Nancy will stay with me.
01:12:32I cared about Nancy.
01:12:33I feel, like, for me, you know, I tried to help her.
01:12:39And even though I won on paper,
01:12:43I lost.
01:12:54After the murder with Springer happened,
01:12:58it's a big shock.
01:13:00Did they slow down?
01:13:02No.
01:13:05The show was gonna go to Jamaica
01:13:07and do a spring break thing,
01:13:10see how wild they could get.
01:13:11People to this day think
01:13:13they left so no media
01:13:16could talk with the staff
01:13:19about the murder that took place.
01:13:22Whether that's true or not,
01:13:24I have no idea.
01:13:27Is the timing convenient?
01:13:31Maybe.
01:13:32Maybe.
01:13:33Maybe.
01:13:33Maybe not.
01:13:36I feel like after the murder,
01:13:37they got a lot stricter
01:13:38on secret-releasing guests.
01:13:42Secret-releasing was the producer's workaround
01:13:45to keep the guests in the dark
01:13:46about the secret
01:13:46by giving options
01:13:48on what the surprise could be.
01:13:50It could be that you're going to find out
01:13:53that you're being cheated on.
01:13:54It could be that you're going to find out
01:13:57that your partner is cheating on you
01:13:59with someone of the same sex.
01:14:00It could be that who you're with is a prostitute.
01:14:04But one of them was really it,
01:14:05just we didn't fully give them all of the details of that.
01:14:08We would give them those options
01:14:10of what they might hear
01:14:11before they went on to stage
01:14:13so that the show would not be liable.
01:14:16But I still kind of knew
01:14:18some of what I was doing was wrong.
01:14:21And that's why I quit, actually.
01:14:24I was asked by a guest.
01:14:29He felt like he had trusted me
01:14:31and that I misled him in his story.
01:14:35He was like,
01:14:35how can you live with yourself?
01:14:37Like, I trusted you?
01:14:39You're like, damn,
01:14:40maybe I don't want to do this anymore.
01:14:41I was like, you know,
01:14:43maybe I am wrecking people's lives.
01:14:49Just before NBCUniversal
01:14:51moved production to Stamford, Connecticut,
01:14:53in 2008, Richard Dominick resigned
01:14:55at the end of the 18th season.
01:14:56Another producer, Rachel Wilkos,
01:14:59and wife to the security director,
01:15:01Steve Wilkos, took over as VP.
01:15:04And then another producer
01:15:05picked up the helm in 2015.
01:15:08By the time I left,
01:15:09all the shows sort of looked the same.
01:15:11It's crazy as it sounds.
01:15:13There was no shock value anymore.
01:15:15I think the show
01:15:17was starting to become a one-trick pony.
01:15:19And most of the time,
01:15:21it was just kind of tongue-in-cheek fun.
01:15:25But, you know,
01:15:27when you do something dirty
01:15:28and underhanded like that
01:15:29and manipulative,
01:15:30yeah, it may seem tongue-in-cheek fun
01:15:32for a while,
01:15:33but something bad's bound to happen.
01:15:37In this episode,
01:15:38Blake Galvey's a guy
01:15:39from Louisville, Kentucky,
01:15:41who was confronted by his fiancée
01:15:42who told him that she was having
01:15:44an affair with his friend.
01:15:45I don't want to marry you.
01:15:48His friend also joins him
01:15:50on this episode.
01:15:51The two get into a scuffle
01:15:55before they are separated.
01:15:57And Blake had no idea
01:15:58this was going to happen.
01:16:01About 10 days after it aired,
01:16:03Blake died by suicide.
01:16:19We've handled a variety
01:16:21of wrongful death cases
01:16:22over the past several decades
01:16:23in Kentucky and Ohio primarily.
01:16:26If you are killed
01:16:27at no fault of your own,
01:16:28one of your family members
01:16:30has the ability
01:16:31to bring a lawsuit
01:16:33on your behalf
01:16:34and your estate's behalf.
01:16:37And a lawsuit was filed
01:16:39by Blake's family
01:16:40against the Jerry Springer show
01:16:42and other defendants.
01:16:43Alvey versus Gerald Springer,
01:16:47NBC Universal.
01:16:49They alleged that Blake's death
01:16:51was a result of extreme
01:16:53emotional distress
01:16:54that was caused by this show
01:16:55and the airing of it.
01:16:56Boy, if there's ever an entity
01:16:59that you could say
01:17:00was really trying to cause
01:17:02alarm, harm, embarrassment,
01:17:04it's the kind of thing
01:17:05those producers do
01:17:07on the Jerry Springer show.
01:17:10Our firm and I
01:17:11were not involved
01:17:12in any way in this case.
01:17:13But I looked at the pleadings,
01:17:15the case docket.
01:17:16This is a document
01:17:17that the production team
01:17:19has given on the Springer show.
01:17:22And it's an outline,
01:17:24an advice, rules, guidelines
01:17:26that they're supposed to follow
01:17:27when they have guests
01:17:28and participants on the show.
01:17:29And the first number one
01:17:33out of 30 lines or so,
01:17:39the number one rule
01:17:41is to always play dumb.
01:17:44The most important rule
01:17:46to follow on show day is
01:17:47always play dumb.
01:17:49All bold.
01:17:52Many guests will ask you
01:17:54all kinds of questions
01:17:54regarding why they're here,
01:17:56the other guests on their show,
01:17:57and various other details
01:17:58of their story.
01:17:59You must not mention
01:18:01anything regarding their story.
01:18:02If you ever have any doubts
01:18:04about what you can or cannot say
01:18:06to a guest,
01:18:07then do not say anything at all.
01:18:09As far as they know,
01:18:11you just started.
01:18:13This is a four-page document
01:18:17with multiple bullet points
01:18:18and guidelines on every page,
01:18:21and not one speaks
01:18:22to the well-being
01:18:23of the participants.
01:18:25Listen,
01:18:26when you are interviewing guests
01:18:28and you're talking about
01:18:29revealing secrets
01:18:31and cheating scandals,
01:18:34there is a measure
01:18:35of responsibility
01:18:36that has to be in place
01:18:39in order to protect
01:18:40the guests of the show.
01:18:43So it's naive to assume
01:18:45that someone is not going to die
01:18:47as a result of this extreme conflict
01:18:50on the show.
01:18:54And so in this case,
01:18:55the judge agreed and ordered
01:18:58that the parties go to arbitration.
01:19:00And then several months later,
01:19:02the case was dismissed.
01:19:04We do not know how much
01:19:05the plaintiff was suing for.
01:19:07A lot of times,
01:19:08that negotiation is confidential.
01:19:10But the hope is always
01:19:11that by bringing a lawsuit,
01:19:14that you will change the behavior
01:19:15of the Jerry Springer show.
01:19:24Jerry always said
01:19:26that the show doesn't create society.
01:19:28It reflects it.
01:19:29And he is absolutely correct.
01:19:31That is 100% correct.
01:19:32But think about all the chanting
01:19:34and stuff.
01:19:35They're human beings
01:19:36and we dehumanize them.
01:19:38That is on us.
01:19:39We should look at ourselves
01:19:40very carefully.
01:19:41Why?
01:19:42Why does it...
01:19:44Let me ask you...
01:19:44It seems like
01:19:45a certain percentage
01:19:46of both the people
01:19:47that worked on the show
01:19:49and people who appeared on it
01:19:53were spiritually depleted
01:19:55in the experience.
01:19:57I don't want to say
01:19:58that people became
01:19:58spiritually bankrupt
01:19:59because of it,
01:20:00but they certainly
01:20:01were at risk of being so.
01:20:04These days,
01:20:05I am a CEO
01:20:06of my own company.
01:20:07I'm a showrunner,
01:20:08exec producer.
01:20:09I've done several network,
01:20:11cable, TV shows.
01:20:14And have I made money off of Trainwreck TV?
01:20:20Yes, I have.
01:20:22But I will tell you
01:20:25the only time that I did it
01:20:28and wasn't proud of it
01:20:30and couldn't sleep at night over it
01:20:31was when I was producing
01:20:33The Jerry Springer Show.
01:20:34I'm not super proud
01:20:36of all the shows that I made.
01:20:40The Springer Show
01:20:42changed our culture
01:20:43in a lot of ways.
01:20:48I think it belonged in the past
01:20:50and that's where it should stay.
01:20:55After I was on the show,
01:20:57I became a physician,
01:20:59an author,
01:21:01and I am an advocate
01:21:03for young people
01:21:03experiencing homelessness.
01:21:05It's an ego thing.
01:21:07When we today
01:21:07talk about our legacy,
01:21:09who are we kidding?
01:21:10After interviewing Jerry
01:21:1220 years later,
01:21:13my biggest question was like,
01:21:15did you know what it took
01:21:17to get that show
01:21:18on the air?
01:21:19Yes, I knew what you guys did,
01:21:24but I was so separated
01:21:27from what actually happened,
01:21:30including not knowing
01:21:31ahead of time.
01:21:32They never told me
01:21:33who the guests were going to be.
01:21:35Jerry Springer never knew
01:21:36about the stories
01:21:37before we came to tape.
01:21:38And it may have actually helped
01:21:40just due to the fact
01:21:42maybe he wouldn't want to see
01:21:44some of the stuff
01:21:44we put together.
01:21:45You know?
01:21:49If you can cover your ears,
01:21:51close your eyes,
01:21:52and walk away,
01:21:53you can fake ignorance.
01:21:54That's plausible deniability.
01:21:56But I think this is the question,
01:21:58and this is a question
01:21:59that still endures today.
01:22:01If it's your show,
01:22:03your face,
01:22:04your name,
01:22:05but you choose
01:22:06to turn a blind eye
01:22:07to morally bad behavior
01:22:09from your team,
01:22:10aren't you complicit?
01:22:11Has it been good
01:22:12for society in that show?
01:22:13It's been horrible.
01:22:14But look at all the money you made.
01:22:15Well, yeah, but...
01:22:17My next guest says
01:22:17he's fighting me.
01:22:18Whenever I watch any of this,
01:22:19all I think about is
01:22:20I wish he was still here.
01:22:22Okay.
01:22:24I don't think of the show.
01:22:26I think of him.
01:22:35What's the final thought
01:22:36for today?
01:22:40You should be saying,
01:22:41may you never be on my show.
01:22:53Rachel from Boy Meets World
01:22:54is a porn star.
01:22:57People who go from
01:22:58being child stars...
01:22:59You were America's sweetheart...
01:23:01...to being an adult family.
01:23:02Dan is now
01:23:03in adult entertainment.
01:23:04Don't you feel bad
01:23:05about these decisions you've made?
01:23:07You've got to look in the mirror
01:23:08and be happy with who you are.
01:23:10He cooks so…
01:23:11Mmm.
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