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00:08Hello and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show broadcasting from the European
00:14Parliament here in Brussels. I'm Stefan Groben. On The Ring, elected members of the European
00:20Parliament go face-to-face on some of the biggest issues facing the EU. Today, we're going to talk
00:27about the outcome of the Hungarian election and what it means for Europe. Luis Alberto has more.
00:34Peter Magyar's landslide victory in Hungary's parliamentary elections on Sunday has sparked
00:40renewed optimism in Brussels. After years of Viktor Orbán's controversial rule, the change in
00:46government has raised hopes that previously stalled EU support for Ukraine may finally be unblocked.
00:52While the European Union faces increasing global challenges from Ukraine to the Middle East,
00:58its foreign policy responses often appear slow and fragmented, raising doubts about whether its
01:03current structure remains fit for purpose. A central point of debate lies in the EU's decision-making,
01:10particularly the requirement for unanimity. Nevertheless, resistance from some countries
01:16to reform these rules shows how fragmented the bloc is. What does Orbán's defeat mean for the future
01:22of the EU? Beyond potential improvement in relations with Hungary, the Union still faces a broader question.
01:28Does it need radical reform to avoid being sidelined on the global stage?
01:34A lot to unpack here for our contenders and here they are. Daniel Freund, a German MEP from the Greens
01:43European Free Alliance Group. He serves on the Committee on Budgetary Control and Constitutional Affairs
01:48and is a vocal advocate for stronger EU institutions and stricter oversight of EU funds. A fierce defender
01:55of a federal Europe, he said, the unanimity principle is a security risk for Europe. More democracy,
02:02more European security and less blackmailing by autocrats. Orbán is history, the end of the corrupt
02:08dictator. Sanders Smit, a Dutch MEP from the European Conservatives and Reformers Group. He serves on the
02:15Committee on Constitutional Affairs. Regarding the result of the elections in Hungary, he said,
02:20we must respect that the new Hungarian government has received a strong mandate from its citizens with
02:25a conservative agenda of national sovereignty, anti-Green Deal and anti-immigration positions. Sustainable EU decision-making
02:33cannot rely on bypassing national democracy. So let me welcome to the ring Daniel Freund and Sander
02:40Smit. Great to have you here. Good to see you both. Now, the aim of the ring is to offer
02:46our viewers a
02:47glimpse at European Parliament debates so you should feel right at home. Are you ready? Yes. We're ready.
02:54All right. So let's kick it off with the stunner of the week, the election in Hungary. Sander,
02:59was there anything surprising in the outcome? Not very surprising or satisfied. I think the Hungarian
03:05people has clearly spoken, has taken a stance about their future, what they want in the new leadership.
03:11And they clearly wanted a new leader after 16 years of Viktor Orbán. Well, Daniel, that's certainly true.
03:18But the numbers were really, really stunning. Did you have that on your radar? I mean, there had been polls,
03:23but that there is such a clear two-thirds majority. And I think the surprising thing in the end was
03:29how
03:29quickly and clearly Viktor Orbán conceded, because there was some fear that he was not just going to go.
03:36But now it looks like... But the numbers were just too strong, right? Exactly. But still, this is
03:42impressive. I was there in Budapest on the ground and seeing just random people high-fiving, cheering,
03:48chanting in the streets, celebrating the end of the mafia state. I think this was a big moment for Europe.
03:54End of the mafia state, do you agree? I think that we shouldn't polarize too much. We can still see
03:58that democracy and democratic values within the Hungarian people, society and even state institutions
04:05survived, were upheld. Orbán clearly conceded his loss. And I think we shouldn't now overdo all the
04:12speculation beforehand. I was a bit worried by certain left-wing politicians polarizing before
04:19the elections. I think that could have harmed the outcome of Tisha's electoral result in the end.
04:25But the Hungarian people were, I think, independent enough and sovereign enough to decide on their own
04:30for their own fate. One more on Viktor Orbán before we move on. Over the last past years,
04:36he has become the boogeyman in the European Union, but he wasn't all that bad. I mean, 90% of
04:42the
04:42cases he always voted with the European Council. So, are we now going back to business? Well,
04:47it's a bit saying 90% he voted with the others. Yeah, whenever his vote didn't matter. But where it
04:54did matter on the unanimous decisions, I mean, I asked the Parliament Research Service before the
04:59elections to give me the numbers and Orbán has vetoed more than pretty much everyone else combined.
05:04Every single unanimous decision we have taken in the last years, first we get a veto from Viktor Orbán
05:10and he demands concessions, he blackmails the Union. So, I think we have never seen anything like
05:16him in the history of the European Union. Right. Sander, do you agree? I mean, after all,
05:21pronouncing a veto, that's his right. Yeah, that's right. A smaller member states. I think in the last
05:26years, I can agree with Mr. Freund that there was an abuse, especially also for the interest of foreign
05:32actors, foreign states, third countries. I think that was worrying. But in the end, we need this veto to
05:38defend the rights of smaller countries as a principle. In the case of Hungary, I think I worked alongside
05:44Fidesz during many years when I was a parliamentary advisor here in the institutions. And back then,
05:50they were really aligning always with the Juncker Commission with the first, in the first years,
05:56with the von der Leyen Commission. So, I don't think they're the ones always blocking EU policy.
06:01Not always blocking. He did block everything on Ukraine, basically. Is this today, is this the
06:10beginning of a new dawn? Is spring coming to Brussels? What's going to be the vibe here in this town?
06:16I mean, the veto in chief is now gone. So, I hope clearly that now there is a real willingness
06:24to act.
06:25But I also hope that member states understand that we cannot let this happen ever again. We should
06:32not allow a second Orban to now emerge, either because he comes back one day or someone else
06:37follows in his footsteps. I mean, that a single guy can basically block an entire union, can risk our
06:43security and uses the veto not to defend his or the Hungarian interest, but to just basically blackmail and
06:51extort from us. This is something that we should not let happen ever again. So, we need reform.
06:56We need reform? No, I think we would need to keep the unanimity principle as such. The treaties
07:01enshrine this principle not because it's an idea of some Brussels bureaucrat. It was really well thought
07:11out because smaller member states need to be defended against larger member states through qualified
07:18majority voting overruling their national interests. I myself, hailing from a small member state,
07:24the Netherlands know very well what this could mean. Small but powerful. Small but powerful,
07:28but nevertheless, I think we need to defend the smaller member states national national sovereignty as
07:33well. To be really clear, Peter Madja was elected on a national sovereignty electoral program. And I think
07:41it's a bit weird if we act now as if nothing... That's a good point. That's a good point. How
07:47confident
07:47are you that Peter Madja will actually, you know, change the dynamics and not throw in the veto? I mean,
07:55already has changed the dynamics, right? If you look at the relationship that Peter Maguire has with people like
08:00Donald Tusk, with Emmanuel Macron now, they talk, they call each other on the phone. We haven't seen that with
08:06Viktor Orban in month and month. So already there is a different relationship. And I think he has been
08:12very clear that he wants a constructive relationship with the European Union. I think it's clear that
08:18the veto on the 90 billion for Ukraine will go away and we will be able to help Ukraine also
08:23financially
08:24now. And I think, I mean, having been there in Budapest on the ground on Sunday, when he said things
08:30like that he is going to have this constructive relationship, that he wants to join the European
08:34public prosecutor jointly work against corruption. There were cheers from tens of thousands of
08:39people screaming, Europe, Europe. So I think this is very different than what we have seen in the
08:45last 16 years from Viktor Orban. Of course, what Mr. Freund is speaking about is very important,
08:50but that was what I was pleading in favour of. We need coordinated unity, not forced unity, not a
08:57forced unity forced upon smaller members. We need coordination, speaking with other heads of
09:02government. And that's what Peter Magyar is doing now. That's very positive. But that doesn't mean
09:07we need to get rid of the unanimity principle. And I really doubt that Peter Magyar would agree with
09:13Mr. Freund to get rid of the unanimity principle, because he was elected as a national sovereignty.
09:18And we have a Hungarian parliament now. So that's, I was a bit surprised to see left-wing and liberal
09:24politicians cheering for a new Hungarian parliament entirely composed out of right-wing, center-right,
09:31a national conservative, nationalist and ultra-nationalist parties. There's no social
09:36democrat, green or liberal party left. So I think this conservative mandate given by the Hungarian voters
09:43is very clear and should also be respected in the European Union. And we have to work together to
09:47coordinate with Peter Magyar. And I'm very happy that he will unblock the 90 billion euro for Ukraine.
09:53But we shouldn't do as if he is now like a vote or a green MEP pleading in favor of
10:00a European
10:00federal federation. Your thoughts on this, Daniel? Well, I mean, having spoken with actually lots of
10:05Hungarians on the ground, this is not a conservative vote. I mean, most people in this election voted for
10:13Europe, voted for democracy, voted for the rule of law and voted to kick Viktor Orban out. This is what
10:19motivated most of the of those people that now voted actually for Peter Magyar. And the big question now
10:25for him is basically if he is going to represent that voter base or not. Because many people actually
10:33voted in this election with the hope that they will be able to cast their vote that they really want
10:38to
10:38cast in four years' time. Once democracy has been restored, once there is independent media,
10:43once there is rule of law in the in the country. This was not about a conservative agenda. This was
10:49about getting rid of all right. All right. Let me stop you there as we are just getting warmed up
10:54here,
10:54as you have noticed.
10:59Now it's time for our viewers to get a real flavor of the European Parliament chamber, where members ask each
11:06other questions. And sometimes it can get heated. That means it's time for you both to challenge each other
11:14directly, just as you do in the Hemis cycle behind us. So let's get started. And Sander, the floor is
11:21yours.
11:21Yes, Mr. Freund, you're really pleading in favor of getting rid of unanimity. What would you do in the
11:28future situation with the Greens in Germany being a coalition party in the coalition in Germany, in Berlin,
11:35having this coalition force the European Council decision upon them to, for instance, go to war,
11:43like in the past on Iraq or Iran. How would your party in that case react? Would you agree with
11:51such a stance being imposed on the German government to go to war by an EU decision?
11:57Well, I mean, I'm a Democrat. I'm being outvoted here in the European Parliament on an almost daily
12:02basis. That's how it goes. This is democracy. I'm not pleading for a veto here in the European
12:09Parliament. Imagine if among us 720 members of the European Parliament, we would have to strike
12:15consensus. We would have to reach unanimity on every decision. This House would be completely
12:20dysfunctional. And it's a little bit similar among 27 in the Council. So yeah, I would accept decisions
12:27that go against my beliefs. I can fight for them. But at the end, we vote. And I accept that
12:33if we vote
12:33by majority, I can lose. All right. Are you happy with that? No, that basically means abolishing the national
12:40sovereignty of the German Bundestag over its foreign policy and military policy. That's
12:44a different question. And I want Daniel to ask Alexander. Well, my question is basically,
12:50I mean, you have said that, you know, the veto needs to remain. But if you look, for example,
12:55on the process of accession of a new member state, and I could even say, you know, taking a unanimous
13:00vote
13:01at the end, maybe we keep that for now. But do we need 150 unanimous votes in the process where
13:09every
13:10single question needs to be opened by unanimity, needs to be closed by unanimity? I mean, isn't 150
13:16vetoes or unanimous decision on a decision like that a bit exaggerated? Can't we bring that down to maybe
13:24one in the end? The current treaty already has a passerelle clause to deal with such certain issues.
13:31I think we can find solutions there without doing away with national sovereignty and unanimity principle.
13:38And I will repeat myself, but Peter Madja in Hungary yesterday said that he's opposed
13:43to a quick accession of instance for Ukraine. So he wants to say about every step in the process,
13:49opening of every chapter. So I don't think most smaller member states would agree to your approach
13:57there. Follow up, Daniel? Well, I think at the end, we have to decide whether we want a European
14:03Union that is still able to act in a world, you know, with Trump, with Xi, with Putin, whether we're
14:10just the playing ball for for the big guys, or whether we get a seat at the table and the
14:15voice that is
14:15actually heard. You speak a lot about sovereignty and, you know, our capacity to act. And I actually
14:21think we only have that if we're able to speak with one voice. And if we have the capacity to
14:26act,
14:26not one single European blocking us from that. How do you respond to that? I think we need to speak
14:33with one voice, but not through forced unity, but through coordinated unity. The European Union was able
14:40to act after the Russian criminal invasion of Ukraine in 2022. The EU acted upon that, provided support.
14:47So we shouldn't do as if the European Union was helpless with the unanimity principle. This is false.
14:54I think in the future, we can even your stance could even undermine support for the European Union and membership
15:00by bringing in this bomb of qualified majority voting, alienating smaller member states and creating
15:08more resentment among politicians, maybe even among Peter Magyar in Hungary, but also in my own member
15:14state in the Netherlands. If you impose qualified majority voting, having France and your own member state,
15:20Germany, with a few others imposing their foreign policy or a military policy will upon my voters in the
15:27regions. Because you spoke about Budapest, I think that the population of capitals doesn't reflect
15:33the general population in EU member states or their stances. And I think the large majority of voters
15:39in the countryside in the regions want to uphold the unanimity principle to make sure that every voter in
15:44every region and every member state is heard. And these voters know very well we have to defend ourselves
15:50against foreign threats by third states and third countries.
15:54Sander, I gave you the last question.
15:56Yes. Mr. Freund, are you not worried, I already said it before, but aren't you worried that abolishing the
16:04unanimity principle will create resentment and alienate a lot of Europeans in these smaller member states, having other
16:12stances than maybe majorities in larger member states, for instance the Hungarian population, but also in the Netherlands or in
16:18Latvia if we go towards qualified majority voting?
16:22Well, I mean, you mentioned Latvia and I think the Baltic states are an interesting example. You know,
16:27they came out of Soviet rule, joined the European Union. And I think for a long time for them,
16:33the veto was in a way the guarantee, you know, that something like in the Soviet Union doesn't happen again.
16:38Exactly.
16:39But the problem being that since the full-scale invasion in Ukraine, the Baltic states are realizing that if you
16:45have someone like Viktor Orban in the EU that wields the veto, if all of a sudden you have unmarked
16:51Russian
16:51soldiers coming over the border into Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, well, then Orban becomes a security
16:57threat because he can block any kind of reaction. We don't even have an opinion on war crimes committed
17:04in Ukraine if Orban puts his veto in this because we can't have a foreign policy decision.
17:09But you're still reasoning in all terms because Orban now is out of force.
17:14I mean, there will be others.
17:16You see how entrenched this thought was.
17:18But the problem is then, you know, that veto that can be in a way the protector of sovereignty
17:23can also become the supreme security threat. And that is the situation why I think we should get rid of
17:30it.
17:30All right. We've heard the views from our guests. Now it's time to bring in a new voice.
17:39I'd like to bring in European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen now in a press conference this
17:44week. She commented on the outcome of the Hungarian election and gave a hint of what could come next
17:49in Brussels. Here's what she said. Take a listen.
17:52We should also look at the lessons learned inside the European Union. For example,
17:59I think moving to qualified majority voting in foreign policy is an important way to avoid
18:08systemic blockages as we've seen in the past. And we should use the momentum now really to move
18:15forward on that topic. Sander, your thoughts on this? I think this is an example of a prepared,
18:22politically prepared, bureaucratically prepared, badly timed power grab by the European Commission,
18:27which has a lot to do about its own transparency and legitimacy among European voters in this era.
18:34I think that's what they should work on and not work towards abolishing national sovereignty on foreign
18:40policy, on military interventions, because as was said, military operation. We have NATO and the EU,
18:47and we have seen that national democratic change is possible in Hungary, that the democratic will of
18:53Hungarian voters corrected the problems we had in the European Council on support for Ukraine last
19:00support bill. Did I hear that right? Power grab of the European Commission? I think it's quite the opposite.
19:06And you speak about the democratic will of the people. You know, if you look at an issue like whether
19:11large
19:12corporations should pay their fair share of taxes, you have an overwhelming majority of Europeans in every
19:17single member state that want that. But we cannot get there because a single member state, maybe one that
19:24has a very favorable tax regime for large corporations and helps to evade billions of taxes being paid,
19:30can put their veto on these kind of minimum taxation levels, for example. So this is another example where
19:38the veto is basically going against democracy, is going against the will of the vast majority of Europeans.
19:45All right. We'll come back to this. Let's take a break here on The Ring. We'll be back with more
19:51after this.
20:00Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show. I'm Stefan Grobe and I'm joined by Daniel Freund from the
20:07Greens and
20:07Sander Smit from the European Conservatives and Reformists. The idea here is to bring the European Parliament's debates to
20:15become your living room. This week we're focusing on a key question in this building. Is the EU in need
20:21of
20:21wide-ranging reforms or not? One issue is the role of the EU High Representative, Kaya Callas. She heads the
20:30European
20:30External Action Service with its 140-plus EU delegations worldwide and employs more than 4,000 staff. But
20:39Callas, like all her predecessors, has no direct control over national armies. There's also no single
20:45centralized EU foreign policy budget. Funding is split across institutions and member states. And
20:51Callas and her service must rely on a consensus of the 27 member states for foreign policy decisions.
20:59Is this efficient at all? No, it's not. I mean, why do we pay 28 different embassies in cities like
21:08Beijing or
21:09Washington? I mean, let's at least start with the councillor service. If a European needs a new passport,
21:16needs a birth certificate, something, why do we need 28 different administrations that they can turn to?
21:22The EU isn't one enough. That would be much cheaper for European taxpayers.
21:26Yeah. Sander, your thoughts? Well, there's a matter maybe of inefficiency in diplomacy,
21:31but militarily we already have Article 5 of NATO, Article 42 in the EU. And we should not,
21:37as an EU, start to double NATO infrastructure. We need to build on the European pillar, I think,
21:43jointly. But that's on a military capacity basis, not on the command structure. And I really,
21:49really would warn the European Union against assuming a rule of commanding an EU army. That
21:56would be very dangerous and create a lot of resentment. But foreign policy, I mean, we're hearing
22:02every now and then that the commission president is sort of undermining the high representative by
22:07taking too much out of the foreign policy portfolio in her own hands. Why are we having a higher
22:13representative at all then? I mean, it is a bit of a strange animal because we didn't,
22:18when we last made these treaties, we didn't fully commit to have an EU foreign minister.
22:23The governments wanted more control. So she is half in the commission, half in the council.
22:28And that is precisely what creates this awkward position. But if you say, you know, this is about
22:35sovereignty, look at the sovereignty of a place like Greenland. Greenland doesn't have sovereignty
22:40facing Donald Trump and the American administration. They had sovereignty when Europe was together and
22:48said, if you touch Greenland, you're gonna, you know, have the joint EU against you. That's when we
22:55protected the sovereignty of Greenland. Not every small country for itself. Places like Luxembourg,
23:01like Estonia, even a place like Germany doesn't have sovereignty in the face of China, Russia or the
23:07US. Only together are we strong enough. The case of Greenland perfectly shows that we're not a big
23:12player globally. And he mentioned that earlier. We're not a big player globally. I think the
23:16Greenland case perfectly shows that if it's necessary, like the Ukraine war, at the start of the Ukraine
23:22war, the EU is willing and able to act with the current treaties jointly. We saw that on Greenland.
23:27We saw it on Ukraine, on the invasion by Russia. But if we look at Iran and the stances,
23:33the different standards of EU member states, Sanchez, Pedro Sanchez, maybe also Italy, but also France,
23:39Germany and other member states on the Israeli-American intervention against Iran, it's entirely
23:45divergent. And we saw this divergence also in the EU institutions. So it's doomed to fail to have a
23:51forced unity of foreign policy. And this way, we need coordination. And Greenland and the Ukraine
23:57cases show that the EU is already able, within the current treaties, to act if it's necessary.
24:03Because the EU, rightly so, defended Greenland. I led a delegation of the Fisheries Committee
24:08last September to Greenland to also strengthen our ties with the fisheries sector there. We have
24:14a huge fisheries agreement there. And I really can only commend these cases as an example for the future.
24:21So it's versus speaking with one voice versus a forced unity.
24:27I don't know where this forced unity comes from. The question is just if people like the two of us,
24:33members of the European Parliament, actually have any kind of say on these questions. Because in the
24:37current setup, it's left to the 27 governments. We here adopt resolutions, but quite honestly,
24:43who cares? But the question is if the European Parliament, the directly elected representatives
24:49from all those citizens in Europe that send us here to the European Parliament, whether this
24:53parliament has a role in the foreign policy decisions, in the diplomatic relations, we got to
24:59say on trade. So some elements are there, but others are not. And it makes more sense if you have
25:05all
25:05the tools in your hand. Von der Leyen can threaten on boycotts and sanctions, but she doesn't have the
25:12other tools that Putin or Trump or she have in their hands. And that makes her weaker.
25:17Well, now it's time to move on to our fifth and final round where we continue our conversation.
25:26Now it's time for something different. I'm going to ask you a set of questions and you can answer
25:31only with a yes or no. Okay. So let's start with a simple one. Is Orbán's defeat a turning point
25:38for
25:39the EU, Sander? I think very much so in the sense that we can now provide the Ukraine with a
25:44yes.
25:45Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Good. Will Magia be an undisputed ally of Brussels? No. No? No. No. No.
25:54Well, you guys agree on something here. Is unanimity making the EU weak on the world stage? Yes.
26:01Absolutely not. Would removing veto power make the EU more democratic? Absolutely not. Yes. And is the
26:10future of the EU federal? No, it's confederal. It is. Is the EU a credible actor on the world stage
26:18these
26:19days? Yes. Halfway. But rather yes. Okay. Does Europe need a single foreign policy voice? No. Yes.
26:30Is this the moment for radical EU reform? Yes. No. Let's keep it away. That's a good one. Are national
26:40governments the problem in EU decision making? When you sit in the parliament, that's how it looks like.
26:46Absolutely not. And national governments have the most direct mandate in the European Council. No.
26:53We're elected on EU election programs. National governments are national elections, so they have
26:58no direct mandate for EU affairs. Our national elections have the highest turnout of voters,
27:03the most direct media attention. And I think in the principle of subsidiarity enshrined in the treaties,
27:08we need to look upon these national parliaments as a prime expression of the national will.
27:12Well, fascinating conversation here for a yes or no question. That final answer brings us to the end
27:18of this edition of The Ring. Thanks again to Daniel Freund and Sander Smit for a lively conversation here
27:24from the European Parliament. Thanks to our audience at home. If you like, you can continue the conversation
27:30by sending us your comments to the ring at Euronews.com. That's it for today. I'm Stefan Grobe. Take care
27:37and see you soon here on Euronews.
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