00:07Hello and welcome to our interview program 12 Minutes With. Today my guest is the Palestinian
00:13Foreign Affairs Minister, Varsin Arabikan Shaheen. Minister, thanks for being with us.
00:19Thank you for hosting me.
00:21Absolutely. So the whole world obviously is watching what is unraveling in the Middle East,
00:25namely in Iran and Lebanon with the U.S.-Israeli war in that region. How is it affecting you?
00:32How is it affecting the Palestinians first politically?
00:35Well, any escalation in the region, any conflict in the region affects the whole region and
00:40especially the Palestinians because the Palestinian issue invariably becomes marginalized. And we've
00:47seen this happening in the last 40 days. So what we are asking for or looking forward to is
00:54de-escalation and the diplomacy and the dialogue to take place rather than the military operations.
01:03So we hope that both parties can come to terms and a ceasefire becomes sustainable, albeit what has
01:15come out from the last meeting in Pakistan, is still problematic. But we hope that things can be aired out
01:24to a better path.
01:25Are there any effects economically for Palestinians that you can mention?
01:30Yes, of course, because this whole war is disastrous on all levels, economically first and foremost.
01:39And if the neighboring countries are affected economically, it would definitely affect the Palestinians.
01:46The Palestinians today are under a lot of financial strain.
01:51Do you have a plan to help citizens or the finances, the Palestinian authorities are such that you cannot provide
01:58the extra help?
01:59One of our foremost priorities is to help people steadfast. But that steadfastness needs money. And that money is not
02:10available, especially today when the Palestinian clearance revenue money has been withheld by the Israelis.
02:17And we have billions of shekels sitting in Israeli banks. Today, the Palestinian authorities are unable to meet the basic
02:26needs of its people.
02:27I mean, if we talk about education, health care, water, electricity, we're passing through very, very rough times.
02:34Various U.N. agencies have noted an uptick in settlers attacks against Palestinian civilians, especially since the Hamas terrorist attack
02:46in October 2023.
02:48But it's only getting worse and worse. What have you observed on the ground yourself?
02:55Well, settler attacks are part of a systematic policy on displacing Palestinians, forcing Palestinians to leave terrorizing Palestinian lives.
03:06It cannot be separated from the overall state policy. And yes, we see an intensification of settler terror for the
03:14last two years, and more specifically, in the last three months.
03:18I just received a report on settler attacks for the month of March last month, and there were 3,000
03:28attacks, a bit over 3,000 attacks, which means tens of attacks every day.
03:36And these attacks come in various forms and shapes. It's no longer going out and being stopped by a settler.
03:44These settlers are coming to our homes. They are attacking us in our homes, in our backyards.
03:49They loot homes. They burn trees. They burn the yards. They burn vehicles. They stone our children.
03:58And they are very much supported by the Israeli occupation forces. I mean, those occupation forces have an obligation to
04:08protect the occupied.
04:11But what we see is they either look and do nothing or they are engaged in the actual terror attacks.
04:20And this needs to be stopped. It's very serious.
04:24A few days ago, the army chief in Israel, Eyal Zamir, denounced the attacks and said they had to bring
04:33more troops to the West Bank.
04:35So they are short of troops, obviously, with all this war going on at the same time.
04:39And a battalion was actually removed from Lebanon to be sent to the West Bank.
04:44Do you see any improvements in more troops trying to contain the violence or not?
04:51I think this is necessary, but not enough at all, because we need to change the policy.
05:00The policy uses the settlers to terrorize the Palestinians. That needs to change.
05:07It's not enough to talk about it. It's not enough to call them terrorists.
05:11What we need to see is action on the ground to halt whatever these terrorist settlers are doing.
05:20Okay. Now, last month, late last month, as you know, Israel voted to restore the death penalty.
05:28And the text is phrased in such a way that it clearly only addresses the Palestinians that would have committed
05:35fatal terrorist attacks against Israeli Jews.
05:39How did you receive that new law?
05:42Well, again, it's part of a systematic policy of erasing the other.
05:47And this law has no legal base whatsoever.
05:49It's highly discriminatory because it relates to the Palestinians and only the Palestinians.
05:56And the world needs to wonder.
05:59I mean, when you see a state that calls itself civilized instituting a death penalty law on prisoners of conscience
06:08and celebrating the institution of this law.
06:13So this needs to be looked upon with a lot of concern by the whole world.
06:18But if I may, the law stipulates that it is for people.
06:25It doesn't say Palestinians, but it's phrased in a way that it is targeting Palestinians that are guilty and charged
06:32of having committed a fatal terrorist attack, of having killed a Jewish citizen.
06:37So these are particular prisoners.
06:39Yes, but our people have been killed for decades.
06:42OK.
06:43I mean, we have been subjected to death penalty by the Israelis for decades.
06:49The extrajudicial killing on our streets continue.
06:53What needs to happen is to look at the occupation and the root causes of this occupation and see what
07:00entitlements people have under occupation.
07:04What struggle, how they can struggle against that occupation and deal with it accordingly.
07:10Death penalty is something that is abolished all over the world.
07:14OK. Now, moving to the future of Palestinian statehood, are you watching the Israeli election that will take place in
07:22October 2026?
07:24In other words, are you hoping there will be a new Israeli administration that you can talk to, to resume
07:30some kind of dialogue?
07:31Of course, we always hope for a new new faces and new policy so that we can come to terms
07:38with the fact that we need to go to the root cause and start genuinely talking about it.
07:43We haven't seen this in the past Israeli governments because the policy has been the same.
07:49The policy has not changed.
07:51Israeli policy is expansionist, it's colonialist, it's annexationist, and they say it very clearly until they come to terms with
07:59the fact that for them to be in the area and for us to live in peace and security as
08:04neighbors,
08:04they have to respect the rights of their neighbors, the Palestinians, and these rights are enshrined in international law, we're
08:12not asking anything above international law.
08:15Last but not least, you know, under the Netanyahu's administration and Trump's administration, Jerusalem was the next, so here goes
08:25the idea of a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital.
08:29Set one activity has gone, you know, has increased a lot under Netanyahu.
08:37How do you see that, you know, for future talks now that, you know, and as we know, the UN
08:43and international order and law is not exactly the reference anymore, it's been shunned left, right and center.
08:49So, are you ready to water down your expectations?
08:53I mean, how do you see things happening if and when a dialogue resumes?
08:58If and when a dialogue resumes, that dialogue needs to follow the parameters of the two-state solution and nothing
09:04but international law, albeit that international law is under a lot of threat.
09:08I mean, the compass needs to be international law, even if it's under threat, and we will continue asking to
09:16work by the parameters of the Madrid Conference, the New York Declaration, the rights of the Palestinian people as enshrined
09:25in international law.
09:25And then when we come to terms, if a peace agreement is forged, then other areas can be negotiated, but
09:32not before the acknowledgement of Palestinian rights on their state as enshrined by international law on the 1967 lines.
09:41Can East Jerusalem be negotiated?
09:44East Jerusalem is part and parcel of occupied territory as per international law, and as such, we need to deal
09:50with it as occupied territory.
09:51Okay. But you understand that in Gaza, when the settlements were removed under Sharon, there were 8,000 settlers at
10:01the time.
10:02In the West Bank, there are 500,000, and if you include East Jerusalem, 700,000.
10:08Are you seriously, and I'm sorry, hoping that, you know, these settlements will be dismantled to make way for a
10:16Palestinian state?
10:16Is it realistic, in other words?
10:18It has to be realistic. If it was realistic to displace 750,000 Palestinian refugees in 1948, and this was
10:28accepted by the world,
10:29it would be much easier to remove 750,000 illegal settlers living on stolen Palestinian land.
10:38They have Israel, they can go back to Israel proper, if there is genuine intent on peace.
10:44And if there is genuine intent on peace, negotiations can take place afterwards, after the two parties say, this is
10:52Israel, and this is Palestine.
10:54And some border modifications can be negotiated, but not before the recognition of the rights of the Palestinian people.
11:02Can you give me one concession that the Palestinians would be able to make to the Israelis if and when
11:11negotiations were given?
11:13One concession that the Palestinians would be willing to make to the Israelis?
11:16I think the question should be reversed. The question needs to go to the Israeli side.
11:21The Palestinians have made numerous concessions in the last seven decades, and they have conceded 78% of historic Palestine.
11:29What we're asking for is to recognize our state, materialize the state on the 22%.
11:35It is Israel that needs to come forward.
11:38But as I said, if there is a genuine intent on peace, matters can be negotiated, but they need to
11:45be negotiated in good faith.
11:47Well, I guess you'll be watching the U.S. elections as well in 2028.
11:52Yes, of course.
11:52That's a game changer.
11:53Thank you, Minister. Thanks for being with us today.
11:55You're welcome.
11:57You're welcome.
11:59You're welcome.
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