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00:01We keep it moving so tight
00:04No matter what style we're flowing right
00:06We keep on dancing just like
00:09Under the stars we sing
00:11Hey!
00:12We sing until sunrise
00:32Stay awake until our eyes will dry
00:36We sing until sunrise
00:41Stay awake until dark turns to light
00:45In generations we sing
00:51Hello, hello and welcome to the third and final episode of The Whole Table,
00:56a collaboration between NITV and Sydney Theatre Company.
00:59I'm Shari Sevens, a Barty Jabba Jabba person, theatre maker
01:03and current resident director at Sydney Theatre Company.
01:06I'd like to begin by acknowledging the people of the Eora Nations,
01:09the traditional owners of the country where both Sydney Theatre Company and NITV is situated.
01:14We pay respect to their elders past and present and all First Nations people.
01:19It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.
01:23This is The Whole Table.
01:25Each episode we have been honoured to be joined by a phenomenal group of artists and leaders,
01:30as well as a special guest or two.
01:33Let's welcome again our regular guests.
01:36Artistic Director of Sydney Festival,
01:38The Best Wesley I Know and Proud Quondamooka Man,
01:41Wesley Enoch AM.
01:42How many Wesleys do you know?
01:44That's the question.
01:45Just one.
01:46Head of First Nations Programming at the Sydney Opera House,
01:49She puts the dance in dance rights,
01:51Widgable Bundjalung Queen, Rhoda Roberts AO.
01:54Jingy Waller.
01:55Writer, actor and director,
01:58Gamilaroi and Torres Strait Islander woman,
02:00the Nakia Louie of Mount Druitt,
02:02Nakia Louie.
02:04Also joining us tonight are two exceptionally special guests.
02:08First up is the name on everyone's lips at the moment.
02:11He blew up the internet after his appearance on Q&A
02:14and recently became the first Aboriginal person to win an Archibald Prize.
02:18We like to call him the main event,
02:21Wongatha Yamachi actor and writer, Maine Wyatt.
02:26And later on, through the magic of the internet,
02:28we'll be joined live from London by Kwame Kwai Amar, OBE,
02:32the Artistic Director of the fabulous Young Vic Theatre in London.
02:36I'm super excited.
02:39Welcome back, everybody.
02:41What a treat this is again and again
02:44to be surrounded by such deadly Indigenous excellence.
02:47Let's have a chat, shall we?
02:49So our little prompt for this episode is James Baldwin states,
02:54people are trapped in history and history is trapped in them.
02:58He highlights a recurring concept that has taken place throughout history,
03:02society's inability to learn from the past and create a new future from it.
03:06How might we break this cycle through leadership and creative pathways in our industry?
03:11Maine, you graduated from drama school almost 10 years ago now.
03:15You've had success as an actor on stage and screen, neighbours, etc.
03:19And recently you wrote your debut play, City of Gold.
03:22Have you seen a change in the industry in all that time?
03:25I think since graduating from acting school especially, you were a part of that year while I was at NIDA.
03:37There was also Travis Cardona, Miranda Tapsell, Guy Simon, Shaka Cook, Rachel Chisholm.
03:46And I think, like, there's been a flow-on effect since then, you know.
03:50And I think when we graduated, you know,
03:52Sapphires had really been pushed really prominently.
03:55And you could see that that had an influence on the younger generation coming afterwards.
04:00And I think there's a big step in, especially in the acting industry, you know.
04:05And I think that's been...
04:07We've had all of those people that were before us, you know,
04:10that had been pioneers in that, you know, Rotary herself, you know, before us.
04:15So I think now that we've been able to take that mantle in that last 10 years
04:20to, you know, be the handover to the next generation.
04:25Can I chuck in a trivia question here?
04:27Does anyone know who the Aboriginal was
04:30that was the first Aboriginal to graduate from NIDA?
04:35From NIDA?
04:36Oh, was it Glenn Shea?
04:38Glenn was the second one.
04:39Oh, who was the first?
04:40The first was the late Vivian Walker.
04:42Uncle Vivian, yeah.
04:43Going back to the 60s.
04:44The son of Ujuru Noonaku.
04:47So there you go.
04:48Beautiful.
04:49There you go.
04:50Oh, I love that.
04:51Knowing where we come from, to know where we're going.
04:53Well, it's actually interesting.
04:55You said in that intro about James Baldwin saying, you know,
04:59move forward, don't look at the past.
05:01And I actually, I love his writing, but always in my mind is,
05:06okay, he's African American.
05:09They're sort of landless as such because, you know,
05:13of what happened in history.
05:15And so I started looking at who would be the Native American writer
05:21that talks in the same way.
05:23And a poet that comes to mind is Joy Harjo.
05:27She's a Muscat Creek woman.
05:30But she wrote this poem, which became really, really famous,
05:34where she says, remember.
05:36And it's a poem about your past will literally inspire you to the future
05:44because you have to know the past to become your identity.
05:48Beautiful.
05:49Well, Aunty Ujuru says the same thing in Song of Hope.
05:52You know, she says, look up my people.
05:54You know, the dawn is breaking.
05:56New world's waking to a bright new day.
05:58And she says this whole idea of kind of those terrible things of the past
06:02will be given away.
06:04And at the very end, she says, to our parents' parents,
06:07the pain, the sorrow, to our children's children,
06:10the glad tomorrow.
06:11And there's a real sense of lifting up when you think about that.
06:14That's beautiful.
06:15That's stunning.
06:16Wesley, I'd like to ask you, you've headed up two large organisations,
06:19Queensland Theatre Company and Sydney Festival.
06:22In both cases, you were the first Aboriginal person to do so.
06:25How conscious were you going into these positions
06:28about wanting to change the system and do you feel like we did?
06:31I think the big motivation is to make sure I didn't change myself
06:34and I don't know if I succeeded in that.
06:36I think that I changed by going into those organisations as well
06:40because the organisational kind of needs are such that you've got
06:44to become better at this and better at that and better at this.
06:47And so I think I shifted.
06:49And when I look back now and I think actually what I really want to do
06:53is make sure that First Nations voices were being held as important
06:58in these organisations and that I found too that that was being driven
07:02by my personality and who I was.
07:05And as I look back now and I go, actually,
07:08has there been the structural change that will make sure
07:11that that organisation, those organisations,
07:13keep doing this work going forward?
07:15Because, you know, I'm seeing now, especially in the post-COVID world
07:19or in this COVID world, people are not valuing these things going forward.
07:24And so they go, oh, this is discretionary.
07:26You know, having blackfellas is discretionary.
07:29We can choose to do it or not do it rather than say, no,
07:32it actually has to be done, you know.
07:34And so we're seeing a few things now that I'm quite worried about that I go,
07:38OK, you were happy to do it while someone was there reminding you.
07:42But then when there's a big structural question, you go, oh,
07:46well, maybe we don't have to.
07:48And that's what I'm worried about most.
07:49And so, I mean, I think that's, to be honest,
07:52I think that's maybe even a failing in me that I didn't actually get
07:56to do that big structural change that will be there in three
07:59or four generations from now.
08:01And if I look back now, I go, well, you know, I blame myself and go,
08:04what do I need to do to make sure that that doesn't happen now?
08:08What would it take to make that change, Wesley?
08:10Look, I think that representation is one thing at all levels
08:14of governance of an organisation.
08:17I think policymaking is important, but also about the supply chain.
08:21You know, supply chain in both people, ideas, projects
08:25have to be kind of constantly kind of being nurtured along the way.
08:29And if you have a moment where you go, and COVID is one of those moments
08:33where you go, oh, you know, oh, maybe we can't do something
08:36and you lose faith in that supply chain or you lose,
08:40you take your eye off the ball, suddenly we can go back a generation
08:45just like that.
08:46And so what we need to do is say, in these moments of challenging times,
08:50challenging financially, challenging culturally,
08:53we have to keep pushing our progressive agenda.
08:56We have to keep pushing blackfellas' agenda
08:58because it's so easily washed away and forgotten.
09:02Rhoda, you're Head of First Nations Programming at Sydney Opera House.
09:05Are you thinking about the future when programming the present?
09:08Really good question.
09:09And it comes in a couple of prongs.
09:12But I think one of the big things when I first got that position
09:16was really shifting that deficit discourse that we were consistently seeing.
09:23And having said that, yes, looking at new works and, you know,
09:28really actually inspired by some of the new young writings, you know,
09:33where there isn't a shame of the terminologies that's used,
09:37whether it's decolonisation, truth-telling, trauma and so forth.
09:42But on the same hand, and I really see myself there as a service to our people,
09:49as I don't want to sound all martyr about it,
09:52but I really think I'm in a luxury position where I have to ensure
09:58that there are all elements of our culture.
10:01So, for example, you mentioned dance rights can't dance.
10:06But dance rights is looking at the past.
10:10Reclamation, because if we lose those song spirals,
10:14those old song lines and song cycles, we are then at a deficit
10:19because our future coming children will never know the knowledge
10:24in that song that is the stewardship of who we are with country.
10:29So, yes, we're looking to the future
10:32and using all this incredible technology,
10:35but we're also mindful that those footprints will always be with us
10:39and we have an obligation.
10:42Nakia?
10:43Yes?
10:44The future.
10:45The future.
10:48She's a psychic.
10:50You see.
10:52Big goals, big vision, big plans.
10:55You know, in terms of as just kind of a writer,
10:57I would love to see more Aboriginal writers,
11:02more women writers, especially like First Nations women,
11:07more queer writers.
11:08I guess I'd like to see stories I want to hear.
11:10So, from a very basic level, that's what I would love to see.
11:13I mean, doing black comedy was the only sketch show,
11:17only television show in Australia that we did open call-outs.
11:21I mean, how else do you get Aboriginal people into a television industry?
11:24We literally, you know, we're fielding because it's a very elitist place.
11:28You know, you need to know someone, you need to do this,
11:31you need to go work for free in writer's room for ages.
11:34I mean, I got into television through black comedy.
11:37I got into theatre quite serendipitous through kind of tokenistic change.
11:41There was a thing called Interplay Young Playwrights Festival.
11:44Ooh, that's right.
11:45Yeah, yeah.
11:46And I think what happened was one year they just, it was all white fellas
11:48and they realised that they needed, they just couldn't have all white people be there.
11:53And I'd written a play back in like a short play for the Short and Sweet Festival
11:58in like 2006 when I was still in high school.
12:02And so I got this, I get this message like four years later going,
12:07hey, do you want to come to this Interplay Festival?
12:09And that's how I started playwriting.
12:11And that was for kind of an actor, I guess, of like an informal quota,
12:14like an act of tokenism as such.
12:15Yeah, yeah.
12:16But it was just at that very right time that things were starting to shift.
12:19And then black comedy.
12:21So I think in terms of change the future, I just want to see more writers,
12:27but I want to see more consumers.
12:29I want people to stop thinking that the average viewer is Donna in Blacktown
12:33or, you know, Hillary on the North Shore for theatre.
12:37I want to see theatres that look like the people I used to catch the train
12:41from Mount Druitt into Central.
12:43And Shari, I'm always reminded of 8 Triple M.
12:46I think it was one of the greatest television shows that took humour
12:50but also incorporated knowledge in a very subtle way
12:55that became the norm in that community.
12:58And I thought that was incredibly clever.
13:01And this notion of quotas, I think, is a really interesting thing.
13:03Well, we're going to come back to quotas.
13:05Can I pause you on that one, Wesley?
13:08My favourite Wesley, let me pause you.
13:10Wow, wow, here's my boards.
13:13When we return, we're going to talk about boards and representation.
13:17The future is bright, you mob.
13:19We keep it moving so tight.
13:23No matter what style, we're flowing right.
13:26We keep on dancing just alike.
13:30Blended like flames in a fire.
13:33Welcome back to The Whole Table.
13:34Let's get straight into it.
13:36OK.
13:37Many of you have sat on boards, actually.
13:39Mayne, you're on the board of Griffin Theatre Company at the moment.
13:42What insight has that given you to the inner workings of theatre companies
13:45as opposed to working on productions in companies?
13:48So my position on the board is from a creative aspect, obviously,
13:53because my background is, you know, acting and playwriting.
13:57And so I've been on the board for a year now, I think.
14:02And during that time, there was a transition between artistic directors that came through.
14:07And I didn't have a lot to do with the first round of applications in that process.
14:13I had to do with the second round.
14:15And that was interesting coming into how we got to a shortlist and having to pick a person from that shortlist.
14:24And I raised concerns early in that process to, you know,
14:32we need people to apply for this role.
14:37Because I think there's, in every major theatre company, most of the artistic directors are white.
14:45And most of them are men.
14:47And we got to that second round of the shortlist.
14:50And Declan Green, who is our artistic director, had to be that role.
14:58Because we looked at the other applicants and he was there driving playwriting.
15:03And that's what Griffin Theatre Company is, the new Australian work theatre company.
15:10But it was disappointing that we got to that process
15:13and there wasn't any other people, applicants, that were from diverse backgrounds.
15:18And I think being a part of that process, the theatre company took the initiative in,
15:23you know, this is what we want this to be, a theatre company that drives with playwriting as its main.
15:28And we got Declan because he was the best applicant in that area.
15:32But I know that I come into those rooms and I have to be the person that is championing diverse voices.
15:39Whether that be, you know, Indigenous people of colour, queer people as well.
15:46So, like, I think I come in with the experience of being in productions of the acting side of things and playwriting now.
15:55So, you know, my position on the board is very much a creative thing.
16:01And it's now learning about those administrative things on the board that come into play with it.
16:07Well, Rhoda, can I ask you, how important is diversity on boards, do you think?
16:11Absolutely, there should be. There should be representation that is mirroring society.
16:16And, of course, with boards, you look at the governance, right?
16:19So you'll always have the lawyer, the accountant, you know, the person with the accountancy,
16:24financial background and so forth.
16:26But we should also be representing the scope of the creative industry.
16:30If it's a board of a theatre company, then it should have a reflection of, you know, the work, the business at hand.
16:39But I do say cautiously that I also think we have to be our own, you know, honesty needs to be reflected in that
16:49it's no point putting someone on the board simply because they're auntie in the community.
16:55It has to be someone with the skill base.
16:59Because otherwise then it's a quota system that's set up, there's their rep there,
17:04but there's nothing for them to contribute because they don't know the sector.
17:08Can I ask a question?
17:09Like, I go to a lot of donor meetings or openings and things like that and I meet people who are on boards.
17:14What does the board essentially do for a theatre company?
17:16So when you say, like, what is the skill set?
17:19What is that function of a board or a board member for a theatre company, in particular an arts organisation,
17:24just for like a dummy like me?
17:26Well, I think it's to look after the core business of the organisation.
17:29So that's both the financial kind of governance and making sure that's all done.
17:33But also, you know, who is the audience and how it's going to be built up through some policies and structures
17:39and also a little bit of quality control, I would say, along the way.
17:44And I've sat on boards too that when I was very young, you know, in my early 20s,
17:48and I don't know if I was contributing much.
17:50I was getting a lot out of those board memberships.
17:53But I know by sitting in that room, everyone else knew that there was a constant reminder to think about
17:59what this is going on.
18:02So maybe as a 24-year-old, I may not have been contributing that much, but I was there as a reminder.
18:08And what's skilled me up now is I'm very happy to go into, you know, a board meeting and go,
18:13I know how these work, my friends.
18:15Sit down.
18:16And it's the advocacy as well.
18:18I should rephrase what I said earlier, is I don't mean not having Aboriginal representation on a board.
18:25Absolutely.
18:26But I think when you've got someone who knows the sector, you know, like you were saying,
18:32man, you're championing, you become advocates.
18:34And I think that's really important.
18:36But also, you know what's required of that board so you can ensure that they're in dialogue with the local community.
18:43Well, this is the difference between tokenism and representation.
18:46Tokenism is you're just there because you're ticking a box.
18:48Representation is because you're bringing ideas to the table all the time too.
18:52And what you're saying about being on the board early part, it was like I was in the same boat that I came in
18:58and not knowing what I contribute in the room, but it was also I'm learning on the job, you know,
19:03and to have those positions where people of diverse background can come in and be in a position where they can learn how things go on.
19:12How are you going to know if you've never had that experience in the first place?
19:14Well, in the arts areas, the core business of an organisation is a cultural business.
19:19And unfortunately, I think in the last 10 years or maybe even 20 years, the conversation has been more about a financial business.
19:25You know, like we think about more corporate boards and you go, actually, we need to tip this around.
19:30And if anything, we as First Nations people bring a cultural conversation to this board that often I think we should go sit on BHP board and tell them how to work.
19:39Well, my first board was the Opera House.
19:40Yeah, yeah.
19:41One of my first boards.
19:42I was on the Darling Harbour Authority.
19:43Then I got appointed to the Sydney Opera House Trust.
19:47During my tenure over nine years of sitting on that trust, I pushed that we had our First Nations resident company.
19:54I pushed that we would have a community event each year, which, of course, became the Deadly Awards.
20:01So, in fact, boards do give you that opportunity to push and drive.
20:06And I wonder, having been on that board in the 90s, whether we would have seen Bangar as a resident company.
20:13It took me a long time at every board meeting.
20:16But Sydney Opera House is a good example where you were there for nine years.
20:21I came in after you for seven years.
20:23Wayne Blair came in after me.
20:25Deborah Malman is there now.
20:26And so I'm going to say there's over 20-something years, maybe even 30 years worth of representation on that board.
20:32And it shows.
20:33Do we believe in them?
20:34Are we for or against them?
20:35Well, people don't know what they want to see unless they've seen it.
20:38You know what I mean?
20:39And it's one of those things where it's, you know, you're talking about the financial area.
20:44The run of the thing, the bar is there because it's been the same thing over and over.
20:50But now that these diverse stories have been coming around from all different backgrounds,
20:55they're making more money or, like, as much or, you know.
20:58Absolutely.
20:59It's one of those things where, you know, this is the time.
21:01And people don't know what they want to see until they see it.
21:04And then they go, I want to see that again.
21:05A starved audience is a hungry audience.
21:07And if you're prepared to feed them, they'll turn up in large numbers.
21:10So, for me, quotas are very, very useful.
21:13And also, failure against quotas is useful.
21:16Because you go, OK, why did I fail?
21:18Why didn't we have enough First Nations works in this program or enough female directors?
21:24When you fail from a quota, you then are going, OK, I need to learn a lesson or the organisation needs to learn a lesson.
21:30Let's go through a process.
21:32And I think people who poo-poo quotas and say, oh, yeah, no, quotas are the enemy of art.
21:39You know, shut up.
21:40Because your attitude is the enemy of art.
21:43Because you're stopping us from getting in.
21:45So, you know, quotas are just a useful tool.
21:48And surprisingly, reconciliation action plans.
21:51I hate the term.
21:53But they almost assist that, that you are reflecting.
21:57We were the first arts company at the Sydney Opera House to have a reconciliation action plan.
22:02Pretty appalling, really, that we were the first arts organisation in this country.
22:06But what it did, it becomes a great tool to measure those quotas, to look at the capacity building and the sectors where it's needed,
22:14where the disparities are, and then reflect on what you've done and where you've actually made huge mistakes and how you can learn from those lessons.
22:23Well, this is interesting because I remember the Opera House had very achievable goals.
22:29And they realised they doubled their quota, doubled their thing within the first year.
22:33Yeah.
22:34It was not as hard as they thought it was going to be.
22:36You know, you're young, you're writing, you get this opportunity.
22:40And of course, you come from the background where you're going to grab everything.
22:44Yeah. I mean, like quotas, there's a conversation that's happening outside of art as well.
22:47And if you look at it within like the corporate world, you see that quotas for women don't necessarily engage with then people, people of colour.
22:54So when you look at where maybe white women have been successful, you don't necessarily see a big shift in race or class there.
22:59So I think that what that points is that we're using quotas.
23:02They're just a tool, but they also have to be deeply intersectional for there to be, for them to actually be effective.
23:07In the same way that executive change needs to, can really only have a significant cultural shift if you're seeing the tools from a grassroots level.
23:15You need the top and the bottom consistently.
23:17You look at networks, you know, it's majority white men.
23:21There's been a little bit of a shift there.
23:23And we've seen that shift with Sally Riley at ABC with her going into an executive position.
23:28She's now commissioner of scripted production, I think.
23:31A lot of shows were helmed under her.
23:34I think what we can count on is there is accountability for people who go into those roles.
23:38I think with quotas, it's really, really hard to advocate for yourself, to be heard, to make sure that you're being seen, to have your shows put on, if you don't get to have a seat at the table.
23:49And if quotas are just getting people there at the table, that's the very least they can do.
23:54But I think, you know, what we can rely on is the fact that historically, white people necessarily, white people haven't necessarily brought non-white people along for the ride.
24:05We've had to have Aboriginal people look out for other Aboriginal people and create those pathways.
24:09And the same way women have looked out for, like, white women have looked out for white women.
24:13It's just about how do we deepen those pathways, I think.
24:16I don't know if that makes sense.
24:17That's really helpful and exciting to think about.
24:19And I think a great note to leave us on for that break.
24:23So after the break, I'll be speaking with Kwame Kwai Amar, OBE, actor, playwright, director and artistic director of the Young Vic Theatre in London.
24:32To the new day for you and I, we're fearless.
24:46Oh, everybody in London.
24:48Welcome back.
24:49We have the artistic director of the Young Vic in London with us.
24:53Welcome to the whole table, Kwame.
24:55I'm so sorry for what you're all going through over there.
24:58We're all sending our best wishes for reopening soon.
25:01I also wanted to acknowledge it's a ridiculous time in the morning.
25:04So let's jump straight in.
25:06Kwame, before the break, we were talking about boards and the great power they have when it comes to deciding who will lead a company.
25:12Now, you've been on both sides as a board member and as artistic director.
25:16What do you think is important when it comes to the relationship between these two roles?
25:20First of all, thank you for having me on.
25:23It's fun to be in my house in London at this 30 hour of the morning and know that I'm going out live in Australia.
25:30Boards.
25:33I would say I would say it's about boundaries and making sure that everybody understands what their real job is.
25:42Like there is a difference between the executive and governance.
25:46And I think as a board member, you have to understand that your job is there to be a guide, to be a sounding board, to make sure that you look after the company.
25:55But looking after the company doesn't mean doing the executive's job for them.
26:00And as an executive, you also have to respect that the board are there to actually not just for you to say what you're doing, but for you to really use them as your guides.
26:13So for me, I always say this and we just did a transition probably less than a year ago to a new board president and all board chairman here.
26:23And I want my chairperson to make sure that when I doubt, no, but when I present an idea and they question it, that I doubt myself, that I go, Kwame, think about this.
26:39And having that level of trust in their intellect and their integrity actually makes sure that as an artistic director, I don't feel threatened by them.
26:48I just feel aided.
26:50Kwame, it's Wesley here.
26:51About, well, I think it was August last year, you were talking to The Guardian about during this Black Lives Matter moment that our white peers, our white allies have been very clear in listening and deepening their listening.
27:04And that as we go back to theatres now and we focus on bums on seats, but the community should still be our priority, should be our focus.
27:14How's the Young Vic making sure that communities are our priority? How the Young Vic bringing communities to your work?
27:22I think by making sure that we try to be as innovative as possible.
27:28That is in the plays that we will do, in the subject matters that we will cover, in the way diversity is represented on the stage and off the stage, in making sure that our actual physical community in London, here in Lambeth and Southwark, see themselves on our stages, hear themselves in our voices,
27:54and making sure that actually our community programs are valued as much as the work that features whatever superstar we want to have on our main stage.
28:06During lockdown, actually, it was our director's program and our taking part program, our two outreaches into the community that actually never stopped producing work.
28:18They just kept on going. They just kept on going. They kept on innovating. That's how we're going to continue, I think, to make sure we're serving our community and the interlocking communities of London and Great Britain.
28:32Hi, Kawami. It's Rhoda here. Have you seen other companies or organisations, theatre or otherwise, that inspire you for the future?
28:42Yeah, yeah. I hugely adore the public theatre in New York. I love the work that they've been doing with their anti-racism. I love the radicalism that they're employing in terms of how to create an organisation that is dedicated to inclusion and equity.
29:03I'm really, I'm really loving the work that they're doing there. And it's not easy work. It's really hard work.
29:10Similarly, in Sheffield, the Crucible, that theatre there and the work that they've been doing with their community has just been off the hook in the way that they've opened up the building, even during these times, in the way that they have spoken about making sure that their theatre and their community looks like the 2020s, not the 1920s.
29:33I'm hugely inspired by their work. And I suppose I'm also looking around the world, not just in terms of theatre companies, but, you know, theatres on the FTSE 500, by some of the banks and the radical work that they're doing.
29:52Some ballet companies, we have a ballet company here called Ballet Black, for transparency, I'm a patron there. But the work that they're doing during this lockdown is just amazing at giving people access to the rehearsal room, giving people access to the creative process. Everywhere I look, I'm inspired, if truth be told.
30:12Kwame, in your opinion, how can we ensure we keep moving forward when it comes to representation of diverse voices in the theatre?
30:19I think a couple of things. First of all, we have to remember that diverse black, brown, East and South Asians are not intruders into a European landscape when we walk into culture and when we walk into theatre or European culture, that it is ours, that theatre actually in particular, no matter what everybody tells us, it didn't begin in Greece.
30:46Great innovations were done. Great innovations were done. But then, but some ancient cultures, in particular Egypt, were producing plays well before the Greeks were established as being great at what they do.
31:01So in a kind of way, we have to go to the root. We have to rip out the notion that theatre is one of the pillars of white supremacy or pillars of European supremacy.
31:13And we have to open our doors to everyone and say, this is you. Now, reflect yourself through brilliant stories. Reflect yourself through your multiplicity of cultures and continue to innovate, not just through the lens of your diversity, but through the lens of your creativity.
31:36And I think when we start to think about diversity, in terms of diversity in London, for instance, a city that is nearly 45% people of colour, though I dislike that frame, to actually just say, I have a play that has a black person, and it doesn't mean anything.
31:55It has to be, here is an institution that reflects the city it lives in, in three dimension. That's our challenge. Our challenge is to not let this moment just be a moment, but be a movement.
32:11Beautiful. Thank you for joining us, Kwame. Wishing you and your community the best for the near future. Your passion and commitment is inspiring and sweet dreams.
32:20I'm sending love right back to you. I'm sending love right back to you. Love right back to you, Kwame. And, you know, I'm hoping one day soon to kind of come out to your lands and let's do some boogieing together.
32:34We'll see you then. Big love, brother.
32:37Peace and love.
32:38And I'll see the rest of you after the break.
32:50Welcome back to the whole table.
32:57OK, a final provocation, I suppose.
33:00We've all been making work in a system that's not necessarily designed for us.
33:04How can we ensure we're making work in a safe environment for ourselves and our artists?
33:09What processes or protocols need to be put in place?
33:12Rhoda?
33:13Well, coming from the big White House, where we're doing lots of great things,
33:18I think one of the big issues that we do have to look at is ensuring for the arts worker, the curator, whoever they are,
33:25that there is a support and there are the resources.
33:30You know, community expectations are very high.
33:34At last, they've got a voice.
33:35They've got platforms in various sectors across the industry.
33:40And I think the arts worker, I know myself, sometimes I feel I personally carry that.
33:46And there are many days where I feel I'm drowning.
33:49And it comes down to resources.
33:51And then I feel like I've let our arts workers down.
33:55And I think the safety of anyone working in that sector, whether it's as a security person or as a performer, writer,
34:05we have to go back to our communities.
34:07And every work, and I think this is what we really need to make ensure in the industry,
34:13is we're not just doing the six-week run and then it's over.
34:18Whatever we say or do in that production is part of our community obligation.
34:23And it will come back and bite us if we're not careful.
34:27And, Mane, you know, I feel so wonderful.
34:30You know, you've validated so much of sometimes of what I personally feel when I'm having a bit of a bad day.
34:38And I wondered, what was the response from that?
34:44You know, what were the trolls doing to you?
34:46What was the outcome?
34:49Look, to be honest, it was one of those things, because I'd been doing a, you know,
34:53eight-week run of the play in my play City of Gold and the monologue that was in there,
34:59which was originally like a 15-minute monologue.
35:03And I'd been doing that eight days a week.
35:05So I'd kind of been, I was, you know, performance ready, I suppose.
35:10And then I go onto that platform and then they ask, you know, can you pull it down to two minutes?
35:15And I was like, OK, I'll try and make it at two.
35:17And then it was four, because actors.
35:21But it was one of those things where I prepped my family beforehand and I said,
35:26don't go into the comments section because you know what's going to happen on there.
35:29Me, personally, I don't care.
35:32And, look, it's one of those things where I actually find quite funny what people come up with in the comments section.
35:38Not that I'm inviting it, but it's one of those things where I go, hey, that's pretty clever.
35:42But, no, look, it's one of those things where it's water if it ducks back to me, because you don't mean anything to me.
35:48You're just a someone at home who, like, if it's a person coming from who knows me personally, then they have an informed opinion.
35:57When it's someone, an anonymous person behind a computer screen, I don't give a shit what you get to say.
36:00You don't mean anything to me.
36:02But I know that it had a profound effect on a lot of people.
36:06That kind of behaviour does.
36:08And I'm lucky enough that I'm that kind of person that doesn't mean anything to me.
36:12But I know that affects other people.
36:14In this instance, the resounding response, which took me by surprise, was 85%, you know, a positive reaction.
36:22And we know, because we're blackfellas, and I wasn't saying anything new in any sense.
36:28It was just like, you're saying something, and you had the platform to say it.
36:31Because we already know this, you know?
36:32Yeah.
36:33I'm not saying anything new.
36:34That's the way we feel.
36:35And that's why you're relating to it.
36:37But to a wider, non-Indigenous audience, it blew their fucking minds.
36:40Yeah.
36:40You know what I mean?
36:41And they were going like, I didn't think about that.
36:43Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah.
36:44You know what I mean?
36:45And which is great.
36:46If that's a nice little thing for you, I'm educating in the way that I didn't want to, because I don't like it, you know?
36:51Sometimes I can't be bothered.
36:53But in that instance, I just went, I'm talking about something that is personally from me, and this is my story.
36:59And people just related to that.
37:01And people went, oh, yeah, I can respond to that, because that happened to me.
37:05And then for non-Indigenous audiences, it was like, this was a mind-blowing moment, you know?
37:09And they were going like, oh, I didn't think about it that way.
37:12And then now I'm going to go talk and have these conversations.
37:14And look, it popped off in a way that I really didn't expect, honestly.
37:19And it got a lot of views, you know, on all platforms.
37:25So, look, if that's a positive thing, then, you know, that's good.
37:31But, you know, as long as the message is there.
37:33For every one person who criticises you, there are 10 people who don't.
37:37Yeah.
37:37For every one person who praises you, there are 100 people who don't.
37:40And I think that what we need to do more and more, if we're thinking about the future, is how do we reach out when people have put themselves into the public eye and help support them?
37:49Criticism is useful.
37:50Let's not put that down.
37:52I think we can take on critique.
37:53I reckon whether you read it in the paper or you see it online or whatever, and you go, is there something useful in this?
37:58Yes or no?
37:59I think trauma is manifesting itself in so many different ways, and especially within our community, that we even have to look at our own mob who are still dealing with the trauma, and we become the lightning rod for that trauma as well.
38:13But we can also be lightning rods for praise.
38:15Yeah.
38:15How do you think we can go about creating a safe space for those people?
38:18Yeah, when I talk to younger artists now, I say cultural safety is very important, but also cultural resilience is incredibly important too.
38:26How do you create a toughness in yourself so that you can go, yep, I'm prepared to listen, but also know I don't need to listen to you?
38:35And I think cultural safety is back and forward in that way.
38:38I reckon that resilience can be really, really damaging to your creativity, and I'm just finding that personally as someone who this year, you know, with lockdown, I've been working more than I ever have before.
38:46But, like, the last couple of years of my life have really taken a turn.
38:49You know, my very first play that I did in 2013, I had Quadrant go through my parents' financial records while my mum had cancer.
38:55You know, I write my first play after why I was looking after my nan after she passed away.
38:59That's why I started writing.
39:01You know, you get that, and this is where I think there's a real flaw within our system, and this is for black artists, but this is, I think, for artists in general, is that when you look at a company structure, the only people who are on salary who have HR support are the people who work within administration
39:16in a company, artists to freelancers, we aren't unionised, there aren't a lot of places that we can go for support, there aren't any HR policies to look out for us when we're being abused, when we're being bullied on the internet.
39:26I think that's a massive issue within our theatre industry with creatives.
39:30I think the resilience, personally, this year I've been so burnt out.
39:34When we come to a safe environment, first and foremost, I think we need to be putting our creatives, letting them dictate what's best for their process.
39:43I think sometimes when we use words like cultural protocols, or you have to be accountable to community, that's a lot of pressure to put on someone who just wants to tell a story.
39:51You know, for me, mob, people mob who come from mob are always going to be accountable because we have to go home.
39:58You know, I feel the opportunity that I get to say what I get to say because my mother's been saying it, because you've been saying it, you've been saying it, you've been saying it, my peers say it, my grandparents said it.
40:07So I think this idea of protocol and consistently trying to be culturally appropriate or cultural resistance, I think maybe sometimes it's just like, let's throw all of that away and just look at the person and let them tell a story.
40:19Let them have the opportunity to fail.
40:22You know, we don't have a lot of opportunities to fail upwards as people of colour.
40:27We have to be excellent or we fail once and we're done.
40:31And that is so much pressure.
40:33And I think personally, just going back to what you're saying, the cultural resilience, I think I'm a very, very strong person, but sometimes I wonder if that strength has made me desensitised.
40:42You know, I'm so used to being called a black bitch.
40:44I'm so used to be calling a fat slut.
40:46If you go online and you read some of the reviews about my work, it descends into whether or not I'm fuckable purely because I'm a black woman.
40:53I don't want other people to have to experience that.
40:55I can't be the only person leading that change.
40:57But also I wonder if it is, if it does affect, you know, if it chips about your heart a little bit, it makes you not want to tell these stories, but you need to do it because if you don't do it, no one else is.
41:06So I think that resilience, it's a lot to take on by yourself.
41:09And it's like, maybe I don't want to be resilient.
41:11Maybe I just want to be present.
41:13Yes.
41:13No, I think the argument about resilience, though, is the world is changing slowly.
41:19And that the idea that we need it to change faster than it is.
41:23And I think for younger people, too, I go, actually, you know, we've gone through a whole lot of stuff.
41:28This is the intergenerational table here, too.
41:30The things that people have gone on before us have was so much worse than I think what we're going through now.
41:37And hopefully we'll change incrementally.
41:39But I can't create a world for my nieces and nephews and younger generation that is perfect.
41:45I can't do that.
41:46I mean, I'm angry at myself that I can't do that.
41:49I am upset that I cannot make it better for the next generation now.
41:54So what I have to do is say, don't take your own life.
41:58Don't end it because the world's too hard.
42:01We can change this.
42:02And it's a longer term thing.
42:04And, you know, when I hear this, I go, what do I need to do to create the armour to make sure that the future is safe?
42:12And we've all around this table have seen young people take their own life.
42:16We've seen older people take their own life, too.
42:18And we need to say, how do we create a safe place?
42:22And if I can't create a safe place, how do I make sure you're protected along the way through your own self-reliance as well?
42:29I think this is a bigger argument.
42:31But the fact that we're talking about this.
42:33Agreed, agreed.
42:35Has a healing of some sort.
42:37And, you know, when we look at cultural obligations, I'm talking about serious traditional songlines or something.
42:46I would never want to damage that.
42:48Of course, we have a new telling with what we see on our stages and screens.
42:53And I think that whole physical to digital is your world.
42:58It is changing consistently.
43:00But if we don't have the gatherings, we don't have the dialogue, when you have no one to speak to and you're totally invisible, our work creates visibility of our people.
43:14And for me, personally, it is an absolute legacy because of what I was handed.
43:21So I try to operate on a daily basis with a three-point plan.
43:26And, you know, and I have a note beside my computer that says, kind, think positive.
43:35Wow, you have a job.
43:37Do you think, oh, that was all very beautiful and honest and thank you, all of you, for sharing very personal experiences.
43:46And I can hear the collective grief and the collective future that we're aiming for and the grief that we're dealing with at the same time.
43:55Perhaps, do we think a national Indigenous theatre is a way to create a safe space for us?
44:01God, we've been talking about it for so many decades.
44:02Wesley.
44:03So many decades, isn't it?
44:04So many.
44:05That's where I first met you.
44:06Yeah.
44:06We do.
44:07Yeah.
44:08We've been trying to say...
44:09And you didn't have grey hair then.
44:11No, didn't have grey hair.
44:12But this whole idea that goes back to when Uncle Vivian, actually, this is my experience, my first professional acting job as a 22-year-old actor in Brisbane, Aunty Kath, we called her Aunty Kath, Aunty Udru, Nana Udru, sat me down and she said, because it was about her life, and she said, when the time comes, it'll be our turn and you have to stand up.
44:39And three months later, she died.
44:42And this sense of, if nothing else, this idea that, okay, how do we stand up?
44:47And the National Indigenous Theatre Company was part of a vision that was not just, it's not mine, it's not rotors, it's not ours around this table.
44:54It's a vision that's been talked about for so long, because we need the same resources that will lift us up, and the same resources that go to the Sydney Theatre Company or the Queensland Theatre Company or whatever else, we need that to be on our terms.
45:08So this safe space can be there for the next generation and for the older generations too.
45:14And I think if there was, you know, a national theatre brings that national body, but it also enables us to create our own ethical standards and behaviours and protection and all that.
45:28And innovations, what I'm hearing and what you're saying too, Nicky, is saying, let's not be hamstrung by a way that we need to work in a non-Indigenous environment all the time.
45:37The protocols are all part of the safety tools.
45:40But in fact, an innovation to say, actually, I just want to tell you, yarn.
45:44Yeah.
45:44And you go, bring it on.
45:46Well, it'll say too, we don't exist within a, like, we don't exist within a vacuum, you know, and that's why I think theatre and the work that you've all done and the work you're doing now, like, you know, admirers of you all, is that theatre has been one of the, like, theatre, Aboriginal theatre has been one of the places where we've had really, where I think the Aboriginal voice has penetrated the mainstream.
46:06We've actually had advocacy and activism and change.
46:09We're at a moment in Australia, a poemant, a poemant, we're at a moment where, no matter what you think about the LaRouche Statement, Treaty, Sovereign Tenement, we all have different opinions about that because, surprise, you know, blackfellas aren't the same.
46:21But one of the things that is the real issue around the world and within this country at the moment is the adversarial way in which we look and speak to each other and how we look at our history.
46:34And Aboriginal stories are consistently, consistently undermined, we're consistently gaslit as a community and told that our history isn't correct, genocide didn't happen, that it's a black-armed band history.
46:45Our voices are used within political point scoring.
46:47I mean, as a writer, for me, you know, I'm, you know, lines in the sand a little bit and, you know, just trying to get anything up.
46:54But I think Indigenous theatre, what it does is it gives us a voice and a presence.
46:59And imagine, like, saying these are stories as a country, these stories are important, that we have a real place to play there.
47:06I think that's, I think that's something that we're not getting within Australian governance and that's a real change that could actually shift a community.
47:12But, like, it also comes down to, like, the storytelling that, just in itself, you know, because, like, there's always an expectation to be talking about something political.
47:20Like, it's going to be political inherently, you know what I mean?
47:23And, like, I don't need to, what if I just want to do a dumb thing, you know what I mean?
47:26I don't want to do a comedy about, like, aliens coming around and hanging out with them smoking cones or something, you know what I mean?
47:31I would watch this.
47:34Why do I have to be this big black Q&A dickhead, you know what I mean?
47:38Like, why can't I just be, like, talking about dumb crap?
47:41And, like, that should be the opportunity for the next generation to do that.
47:45Speaking of the next generation, May, we have a little video question for you.
47:49Here's our video question for Mayne.
47:54Hey, Uncle Mayne.
47:55This asks your favourite niece and nephew.
47:57Where do you see yourself in 10 years?
48:03You should know to grab those kids.
48:08Paying for your university.
48:12Where do I see myself in 10 years?
48:14That's good.
48:14Look after the family, darling.
48:16Yeah.
48:16No, look, that's all our, you know, that's all our...
48:19Our responsibilities, you know, as black followers with our families.
48:22But, you know, in 10 years, look, I think that question gets thrown around a lot.
48:29And where do I see myself?
48:30I've seen myself as a creative person, you know, and, you know, I've done the acting, I've done the writing.
48:37You know, directing is something that is the next obvious thing for me to be, you know, knocking on the door for.
48:44So, in that process, I think creatively, that's where I would like to see myself.
48:50Being on a board, now that I have been on a board, I know that the administrative side is not my ambition at all.
48:58So, it's just because, like, I know that my skills don't lie in that area.
49:04So, I think wherever it is, it's still continually telling stories.
49:09And whether that be theatre, film, you know, that's where I'd like to see myself.
49:15Cool.
49:16Okay, final question.
49:19I'm going to ask everybody for a one-sentence answer.
49:23Blue Sky Dreaming, if you could change one thing about our industry in the future, what would it be?
49:30Well, we've been talking about quotas on stage so much.
49:33So, I think in terms of this is very short-term thinking.
49:36I would like to see, you know, especially with COVID having changed the theatre industry or the live-performing industry,
49:42where tickets are going to be more expensive, it's going to be a bit more exclusive.
49:45I would like to see there be quotas for audiences.
49:50I think if you're going to go do a white play with Cate Blanchard as your lead and it's going to be millions or whatever,
49:55then I want to make sure that that audience isn't just rich white people.
49:58I want to see that diversity in the audiences, not just within industry.
50:05For me, I think we need to break down what we think is the professional and what we think is the amateur or community,
50:13that in fact that we need to see that there's a fluidity, like we do with sport,
50:17that you can be from schools and community groups, you can build yourself up and represent your state
50:23and then represent your country and that you can work then in a professional elite way
50:27and we don't see any kind of difference between a community practice and a professional practice
50:32because they are in fact connected.
50:34That's a blackfella way of looking at it too.
50:37Beautiful.
50:39Well, you know, they used to say the sporting field was the level playing field.
50:43We clearly know that is not the case.
50:46However, when we talk about our sports people, more often than not,
50:50it's about how they kicked that goal or how graceful they were on the field.
50:56I think our industry can be the level playing field, but I think our industry can actually shift the lens of this country
51:06so the DNA of this country is our culture.
51:11Beautiful.
51:12Powerful.
51:13Oh, look, I think when we see ourselves and, like, sitting on this table right now,
51:23not seeing ourselves through a white lens, you know what I mean?
51:27And not seeing that, like, I have to be white famous to be famous, you know what I mean?
51:31Black famous is fine, you know what I mean?
51:34I'm content with that, you know?
51:36Like, I don't need to go to, like, I don't need to, that's not the pinnacle,
51:39that's not hitting it, that's not making it, that's not telling the stories that I want to do.
51:44I'm already doing that, you know what I mean?
51:46And it's just continuing that and continuously, like, allowing each other to be working, you know?
51:52I think there was a time when things always had to be competitive, and it's not competitive.
51:58If we're all doing it at the same time, then that's, doing it at the same time.
52:02You're doing this gig?
52:03Well, awesome, because I'm doing this gig, you know what I mean?
52:05Like, us together, going together, and growing together, that's where I'd like to see it.
52:10With value.
52:12Yes.
52:14How beautiful, and how inspiring, and thought-provoking, and all of those good things.
52:19What about you?
52:20What's your blue smile?
52:21Oh, look out!
52:24I'm going to keep mine really short and sweet.
52:26I really want to see more accessibility for audiences.
52:28And I guess it kind of fits in with quotas, but I think we've seen a lot during COVID,
52:31and a lot of people who live at the intersections of all these different identities and labels and such things.
52:37And I want to make sure that we, our artwork and our stories, like you say, our DNA,
52:40we're going to grow together and go together.
52:42I think I'm going to lean on Mane's little last sentence there.
52:46Well, that's it for this very special series of conversations that has been The Whole Table.
52:51Thanks so much for joining us, Rhoda, Wesley, Nakia, and Mane.
52:55No doubt I'll see you all at the theatre soon.
52:58Ta-da for now.
52:58Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
53:02Yeah, I'm blooper in Galawarraka.
53:21Yeah, I'm blooper in Galawarraka.
53:24Yeah, I'm blooper in Galawarraka.
53:30Yeah, I'm blooper in Galawarraka.
53:34We sing until sunrise.
53:38Stay awake until our eyes will dry.
53:43We sing until sunrise.
53:47Stay awake until our depths are light.
53:50Stay awake until一直待.
53:54Stay awake until the night immediate.
53:57Bye bye.
53:58Bye bye.
53:59Bye bye.
53:59Bye bye.
54:00Bye bye.
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