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US President Trump once again upset with NATO HOT
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00:00NATO is at breaking point.
00:03The most successful defence alliance in history
00:06risks losing support from its biggest backer, the US.
00:10And other members have lost trust in the United States,
00:13putting the collective of 32 countries on rocky ground.
00:17Their pact to come to each other's aid if under attack
00:20is based on trust.
00:22And there's very little of that going around right now.
00:25Elizabeth Braw can tell us more about what that means
00:28and where we're headed.
00:30She's from the Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security
00:33at the Atlantic Council, an American think tank
00:35that promotes US leadership and transatlantic ties.
00:39Elizabeth, since US President Donald Trump's first term,
00:43he's complained European nations don't pull their weight.
00:45He said they don't have his back in the Iran war.
00:49NATO is undergoing significant pressure
00:52to adapt to his demands.
00:54Is the alliance in for some big changes, do you think?
01:02It's not only in for some big changes.
01:05The changes are already happening because, as you said,
01:09the alliance's most important, most powerful member
01:13is in the person of Donald Trump questioning the nature
01:19of the alliance, the value of the alliance.
01:21And the more President Trump keeps speaking or doubting NATO
01:29as an alliance, doubting the other member states' commitment,
01:34then the more he does that, the more he weakens NATO.
01:38And even though the other member states are committed,
01:41even though they have no fundamental beef with the alliance,
01:47every time he talks about it, by discrediting it,
01:50he weakens it and, by extension, changes NATO as an alliance.
01:58That doesn't mean it's dead or that it's destined to die.
02:02It just means it's weakened.
02:07That said, Elizabeth, I think it's interesting then
02:10to have a listen to NATO Chief Mark Rutter
02:13because he's been echoing some of Trump's woes with the group.
02:18So business as usual will not meet this moment.
02:23And allow me here to applaud President Trump
02:26for his bold leadership and vision.
02:28When it came time to provide the logistical and other support
02:32the United States needed in Iran,
02:35some allies were a bit slow, to say the least.
02:39Nearly without exception,
02:41allies are doing everything the United States is asking.
02:44They have heard and are responding
02:47to President Trump's requests.
02:49NATO is there, of course, to protect the Europeans,
02:51but also to protect the United States.
02:54So Trump has managed to change NATO already.
02:59What else does he want from NATO, do you think?
03:06He wants the other allies to do what America needs them to do.
03:13Now, until now, until the Iran war,
03:17he hadn't made specific requests.
03:18His initial complaint about the other member states,
03:24most of the other member states,
03:26was that they didn't spend enough on their own defence.
03:28And it's interesting to hear
03:31how that narrative has evolved over the years
03:33from the time of his first administration.
03:36He did have a point
03:37that they weren't spending enough on their defence.
03:40But I think already then,
03:42it wasn't really clear whether he wanted them,
03:47he really wanted them to spend more on their defence
03:49and as a result to strengthen NATO
03:53or whether it was just something
03:54that he wanted to complain about
03:56because he felt America was being taken advantage of.
03:59So it's not clear whether in his first term
04:02his objective really was to strengthen NATO
04:05or simply to complain about the other NATO member states.
04:12Not all of them, once again,
04:14not all of them were deficient
04:17when it comes to spending.
04:18A number of them, including Estonia, for example,
04:20were spending the required 2%
04:22and even on top of that.
04:26But that was his complaint in the first term.
04:28Now, in the second term, as we know,
04:31his narrative has moved from defence spending
04:35to complaining that the other member states
04:39haven't supported the United States in Iran.
04:41Now, it's worth remembering that NATO is a defensive alliance
04:46that exists to defend its member states
04:48when they are attacked.
04:51What we have in Iran is the United States
04:54went to war against Iran.
04:55So it's in that context, the aggressor.
05:00So there is no requirement on the other NATO member states
05:03to support America.
05:04But he, for reasons that remain inexplicable,
05:10seems to expect other NATO member states
05:14to come to America's aid in this war.
05:17But he's been clear about his threats, hasn't he?
05:20I mean, he's been threatening the whole way
05:22to pull the US out of NATO.
05:25But what's more likely, the US pulling out
05:28or disengaging in some way?
05:33Disengaging, for sure.
05:35If only because leaving NATO would require
05:40congressional approval.
05:41And that would be extremely hard to get,
05:43even as Congress currently stands,
05:47with Republicans being very loyal to President Trump.
05:55There is enough support for NATO within the Republican Party,
05:58which we should remember has always been the party
06:02of strong defence, of strong transatlantic ties.
06:05There is enough of that left in the Republican Party
06:08and, of course, also among the Democrats,
06:11that a withdrawal from NATO would not be likely in Congress.
06:17So what President Trump can instead do
06:20and is probably likely to do
06:24is to have America do less for NATO.
06:30And that would be incredibly damaging.
06:32We should remember that even though
06:35he has complained about NATO for a long time,
06:38America has remained involved
06:39and did remain involved in his first term.
06:41But now, with him being so upset about Iran
06:46and even mentioning Greenland,
06:50essentially mentioning that
06:52if you don't support us over Iran,
06:54we may return to the idea of Greenland.
06:59So with that being the case,
07:02I think his disappointment or anger
07:05with the other NATO allies
07:07will at the very least lead to less US engagement in NATO.
07:12And that is a highly regrettable thing
07:16because now, as I think nobody needs to be reminded,
07:20now is a very perilous time in international relations
07:25and it's a perilous time
07:27for every single NATO member state.
07:29And Elizabeth, when you say
07:30that would be extremely damaging,
07:33what would that look like in real terms?
07:41So we're at the risk of engaging in hypothetical scenarios,
07:45but let's just look at what's already happening.
07:49The fact that President Trump discredits NATO
07:54on a regular basis,
07:57floats the idea of the United States leaving NATO,
08:01floats the idea of an action Greenland,
08:03all of that emboldens Russia
08:05because what deters Russia is a strong NATO
08:08where everybody, every member
08:10is committed to collective defence.
08:12If you don't keep you as NATO
08:15and its 32 member states,
08:17if you don't keep constantly signalling that,
08:19then you are signalling the opposite to Russia,
08:23namely that NATO is weakened,
08:25that it's divided,
08:26and that provides an opening for Russia
08:28should it wish to harm
08:31one or more NATO member states.
08:33The other thing I wanted to bring up
08:35was that this isn't just about the US
08:38because other NATO members are losing trust
08:41in the US itself as a partner.
08:43Where does that leave the alliance?
08:50It's obvious for, I think,
08:53the whole world to see
08:54that the United States
08:56has been very dismissive
08:58of European countries and Canada,
09:00and that has resulted in
09:03the public in European countries
09:05and Canada
09:06being,
09:08feeling rather hurt
09:10and losing faith
09:13in the United States.
09:14We have seen, for example,
09:16a Danish app
09:17called Non-USA
09:19that allows users to see
09:21what products are
09:24made by companies
09:26based in the US
09:28or made by companies
09:29that are owned
09:30by American companies.
09:32That app has become
09:33incredibly popular
09:35because Danes
09:36are losing,
09:38falling out of love
09:39with the United States.
09:41And that is,
09:42that is just such a,
09:44such a tragedy
09:45because the transatlantic link
09:48has lasted for decades
09:49through the darkest decades
09:51of the Cold War
09:52and after that too.
09:55But that bond
09:56is under heavy strain now.
09:59And voters
10:00here around Europe
10:01are saying,
10:02well,
10:03America is not
10:03what it used to be.
10:05And with voters
10:06losing faith
10:08in that transatlantic bond,
10:11politicians
10:12obviously have to balance
10:14that,
10:15on that on one hand,
10:17with keeping President Trump
10:18happy on the other hand.
10:20But it's,
10:22regardless which,
10:23which,
10:24which side
10:26has the,
10:26has more weight
10:29at any given moment,
10:30the fact that politicians
10:31in European countries
10:32and Canada
10:33even have to choose
10:34between their electorate
10:36and keeping Donald Trump happy
10:37is a tragedy
10:38and weakens NATO.
10:41But Elizabeth,
10:43isn't change
10:44sometimes a good thing?
10:45I mean,
10:45even the head of the group
10:46admits
10:47it's time for change.
10:48Have a listen to this.
10:51This alliance
10:52is not
10:52whistling past
10:54the graveyard.
10:55We are
10:55in a period
10:56of profound change
10:57in the transatlantic alliance.
11:00Europe is assuming
11:01a greater
11:01and fairer share
11:03of the task
11:03of providing
11:04for its conventional defense.
11:06And from that,
11:07there will be
11:08no going back
11:09and nor should there be.
11:11This is a move
11:12from unhealthy codependence
11:13to a transatlantic alliance
11:15grounded
11:16in true partnership.
11:17So is that
11:19the solution?
11:20No more
11:20codependencies?
11:27Mark Rutter
11:28is
11:30caught
11:31between a rock
11:32and a hard place.
11:33He has to
11:34keep the alliance
11:35together
11:35while also
11:37keeping Donald Trump happy.
11:38so that's
11:39when he speaks
11:40that is
11:41the dilemma
11:42or the conflict
11:43that his words
11:44reflect.
11:45It is clear
11:46that NATO can change,
11:48can evolve
11:49and so forth.
11:50And we should remember
11:51that on
11:51on the level
11:53of civil servants
11:55of the armed forces,
11:57NATO still works
11:58extremely well.
11:59But all of that
12:01is undermined
12:03by public pronouncements,
12:06by leaders
12:07doubting the value
12:09of NATO.
12:09And I say leaders
12:12in plural,
12:13but really
12:13it is Donald Trump.
12:15So what will,
12:16what is already
12:17happening within NATO
12:18is that European countries
12:20are assuming
12:21more responsibility.
12:22Yes,
12:23more
12:24senior positions
12:26within the
12:27military structure
12:28are being taken over
12:30by Europeans.
12:31And that is
12:32a good thing
12:33and reflects the reality.
12:35An interesting
12:36aspect to consider
12:37though
12:38is the fact
12:38that the United States
12:40has
12:40for all these years
12:42since NATO
12:43was founded
12:43enjoyed
12:44the unchallenged
12:46leadership position
12:48within NATO.
12:49and for example,
12:51Secure the Supreme
12:52Allied Command
12:53of Europe
12:53has always been
12:54an American.
12:55Now,
12:56if European countries
12:57assume more responsibility,
12:59that also means
13:00that America
13:01won't have that
13:03unquestioned,
13:04unchallenged
13:05leadership role
13:07within NATO
13:07with essentially
13:08the United States
13:09having the
13:10strongest
13:13position,
13:13the most say,
13:15it will still be
13:16a very strong country
13:17but not that
13:21unchallenged leader.
13:22And
13:23that
13:24is a reality
13:25that the US
13:26would need
13:27to get used to.
13:29And
13:29it is
13:30very,
13:31not just
13:32very nice,
13:33it is
13:33indispensable
13:34even if you're
13:36a major country
13:36to have a group
13:37of nations
13:38that support you
13:39not just militarily
13:41but diplomatically,
13:42politically
13:43in different
13:44undertakings.
13:45And that is
13:45what the United States
13:46has received
13:47through NATO.
13:48If it weakens
13:49its commitment
13:50to NATO,
13:51which is
13:52likely to happen
13:53and already
13:54beginning to happen,
13:55then that support
13:57is likely
13:57to weaken too.
13:59Well,
14:00Trump's fury
14:00with NATO allies
14:02is binding them
14:03together against him.
14:05Let's have a
14:06listen to this
14:07soundbite.
14:07Germany is
14:08NATO's
14:08largest defence
14:09spender
14:10here in Europe.
14:11Here's the
14:12German leader.
14:15We want to
14:16ensure that
14:17this war,
14:17which has become
14:18a transatlantic
14:19stress test,
14:20does not place
14:21any further
14:22strain on relations
14:23between the United
14:23States
14:24and its
14:25European NATO
14:26partners.
14:27Whilst I fully
14:28understand the
14:28calls for a
14:29clear stance,
14:30let me say
14:30this here and
14:31now.
14:31We do not
14:32want,
14:33I do not
14:33want a
14:34split in
14:34NATO.
14:35NATO is a
14:36guarantor of
14:37our security,
14:38including
14:39and above all
14:39in Europe.
14:40We must
14:41continue to
14:42keep a
14:42cool head.
14:45And let's
14:46listen to what
14:47Trump had to
14:47say a few
14:48days ago.
14:50When I heard
14:50the head of
14:51Germany say,
14:53this is not
14:54our war
14:56about Iran,
14:58I said,
14:58well,
14:59Ukraine's not
14:59our war.
15:00We helped,
15:01but Ukraine's not
15:01our war.
15:02I thought it was
15:02a very inappropriate
15:03statement to make.
15:05So,
15:05Mertz just said,
15:06cool heads,
15:08but he and
15:10other NATO
15:10allies clearly
15:11angered Trump
15:12by not
15:12supporting his
15:13war against
15:14Iran.
15:15Where does
15:16that leave
15:16us?
15:21In a very
15:22difficult place.
15:26Trump confuses
15:27two different
15:29kinds of war.
15:30Ukraine was
15:31invaded under
15:32the United
15:33Nations
15:33Charter.
15:34Other UN
15:36member states
15:36have the
15:37responsibility to
15:38support Ukraine.
15:39It has nothing
15:40to do with
15:41NATO.
15:42Now,
15:42NATO has
15:43stepped in
15:43and been
15:44part of that
15:45group supporting
15:47Ukraine,
15:48but it has
15:48nothing to do
15:49with NATO
15:49as such,
15:50because Ukraine
15:51is not a
15:52member of
15:52NATO.
15:53And on
15:53that note,
15:54it is
15:54regrettable
15:55that so
15:56many countries
15:57around the
15:57world have
15:58declined or
16:00refrained from
16:01supporting Ukraine.
16:02It is their
16:03obligation under
16:04the United
16:04Nations
16:04Charter,
16:05which they
16:06have
16:06conveniently
16:07forgotten
16:07or ignored.
16:10Then,
16:11when it
16:11comes to
16:12Iran,
16:12it is a
16:13war of
16:13aggression.
16:14How can
16:14NATO
16:15member states
16:17or how can
16:18NATO,
16:18which is a
16:19defensive
16:19alliance,
16:20support a
16:22war of
16:22aggression.
16:23It doesn't
16:24work.
16:24And not
16:25only is
16:25NATO a
16:26defensive
16:26alliance,
16:27it is an
16:28alliance that
16:28defends its
16:29member states
16:29against aggression
16:31from other
16:31countries.
16:33But all of
16:34this has been
16:35explained to
16:36Donald Trump.
16:40He chooses
16:41not to
16:42accept that
16:43state of
16:44affairs.
16:45And I
16:46don't think
16:47anybody can
16:48explain it to
16:48me.
16:48I certainly
16:49hope Mark
16:50Rutter has
16:51explained to
16:52him how
16:52NATO works,
16:53but he
16:57clearly doesn't
16:58want to
17:00understand or
17:01accept how
17:03NATO is
17:03set up.
17:04And if
17:06Mark Rutter
17:06can't explain
17:07it or isn't
17:07willing to
17:08explain it,
17:08how is
17:09anybody else
17:09going to
17:10explain it?
17:11I'm sure our
17:12viewers are
17:13thankful that
17:13you could
17:14explain it.
17:15Elizabeth,
17:16to be fair,
17:17though, at the
17:17end of the
17:17day, could all
17:18this pressure
17:19from Trump
17:19create a
17:21stronger NATO?
17:27Well, I
17:28would like to
17:28hear from your
17:29viewers how
17:29it might
17:30produce a
17:30stronger NATO.
17:32I think a
17:33stronger NATO
17:34is a NATO in
17:35which all
17:36member states
17:37are fully
17:38committed to
17:39the alliance.
17:40and yes,
17:41NATO, like
17:41any other
17:42organisation,
17:42has various
17:44weak points,
17:45but then you
17:46articulate those
17:49off-camera in
17:52candid discussions
17:53between leaders,
17:54between officials,
17:55and that is what
17:56has been done
17:56for decades.
17:58You don't
18:00wash your
18:01dirty laundry
18:02in public,
18:03and if you
18:04do so, you
18:05weaken the
18:06alliance, and
18:09there is
18:09only one
18:10benefit from
18:11it, and
18:12that is that
18:13Russia and
18:14other adversaries
18:15sense an
18:16opportunity,
18:17sense a
18:17power growing
18:18every time
18:19you criticise
18:20the alliance
18:20in public,
18:21and that is
18:22regrettable
18:22because NATO
18:24has been
18:24incredibly
18:25successful.
18:26It has been
18:26successful because
18:27all its
18:27member states
18:28have been
18:29committed,
18:29even in
18:30countries that
18:31don't really
18:31get along,
18:32like Greece
18:33and Turkey,
18:34all of them
18:35have been
18:36committed.
18:36They haven't
18:37always been
18:37agreed in
18:38private, but
18:39in public,
18:39they have
18:41buried the
18:42hatchet and
18:42been committed
18:43members of
18:44NATO.
18:45It is
18:47incredibly
18:48regrettable
18:49and such a
18:49tragedy that
18:50unity is
18:51breaking now
18:52that we
18:53need it
18:53more than
18:53ever.
18:55Elizabeth,
18:56thank you so
18:56much for
18:56spending so
18:57much of
18:57your night
18:58with us.
18:58Hope to
18:59talk again
18:59soon.
19:03And what
19:04do you
19:04think?
19:05Will
19:05Trump's
19:05criticism
19:06create a
19:07stronger
19:07NATO?
19:08Let us
19:08know in
19:08the
19:09comments.
19:09I'm
19:09Ben
19:09Fasulin,
19:10see you
19:10again soon.
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