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Britain's Almost Perfect Murders Season 1 Episode 2
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00:01The perfect murder, the unsolvable crime, does it really exist?
00:08In the TV first, we reveal the cutting-edge technology now used by British police to join the dots and
00:16reveal new evidence in all homicide investigations.
00:19I'm Tim Tate. I've been an investigative journalist for almost 50 years.
00:26I'm Sam Robbins, and I'm a criminal intelligence analyst. For over 20 years, I've worked alongside detectives on major murder
00:33investigations.
00:34Together, in this new series, we are going to discover the fatal mistakes which prevented the perfect murder from ever
00:43being committed.
01:07The End
01:07The End
01:24For almost five years,
01:27Carol Ray thought she had got away with a double murder.
01:33Her husband and disabled daughter died in a fire.
01:37She had deliberately started at their council home in West Yorkshire.
01:43Carol posed as a victim and a hero,
01:47and she even got a commendation from the coroner
01:51at the inquest into her husband and daughter's death.
01:56But murder will always out.
02:06From start to finish, this is like a classical Greek tragedy.
02:11It's only going to end one way.
02:13The benefit that we've got in this case
02:14is that we're able to look at it retrospectively.
02:17And what is quite telling here is the pattern of behaviour.
02:21So you're looking at triggers
02:23and then the acts of arson that Carol Ray undertakes.
02:27At the time these crimes and these police investigations took place,
02:32was this sort of timeline analysis a thing?
02:37Analysis in this country started to take off in the early 90s, really,
02:42and it's grown from there.
02:43So we've now got the benefit of about 30 years' worth
02:46of crime intelligence analysis as a profession and as a career.
02:51Let's start with what we know about Carol Ray and her early life.
02:56Yes.
02:56I think it's fair to say it's a fairly tragic tale from start to finish.
03:01So Carol was born, Carol Stoker, in Hartlepool in 1957.
03:10Carol Ray was born to Linda and John Stoker.
03:13She was one of seven children.
03:15She had an unremarkable childhood.
03:19But at the age of 11, her father started sexually abusing her.
03:26That undoubtedly had an impact on her growing up.
03:29She was only 11 when that first happened.
03:32That would have been something which really would have impacted
03:35on her ability to interact with other people,
03:39particularly trusting men.
03:40And lots of cases we see like this often turn out to be quite tragic
03:46for the victim of these crimes.
03:50And it's not to excuse what she's done later on,
03:53but really it's something that will have impacted on her personality
03:56and her ability to grow as a person.
04:02It's so important to understand the background of any offenders
04:06and any victims to see what's happened in their past
04:11that could have caused them to take the path that they've taken.
04:14And sexual abuse beginning at the age of 11 is going to be a key trigger.
04:19Yes. Those are such formative years, aren't they?
04:22And when it's at the hands of someone that should be wholeheartedly trusted
04:25and is there to protect you, I can only imagine how traumatic that is.
04:30Carol tries to get away from her father and her family.
04:34She does.
04:36She ran away and made her way to the Halifax area and got herself a job.
04:41There she met Richard Ray.
04:45Carol's relationship with Richard was a sort of childhood sweetheart thing.
04:50She was infatuated with him.
04:52He was her supervisor at work.
04:55She stole him from another woman.
04:57She saw him as a love of her life.
05:00She meets Richard, who goes on to become her husband, very early on in 1970,
05:06so she's 14 at that time, which is probably an effort to try and move away
05:12because by 15, she's pregnant and has Mary her first child, so in 1971.
05:19Let's talk about her early married life.
05:22What sort of conditions is she living in?
05:26Carol's second child, Sean, is born in 1973, and then in 1974, Amanda is born and she has physical disabilities.
05:36That's an incredibly difficult dynamic.
05:39You've already got two children.
05:40You now have a child that has got extra needs, you're not very well off, you've got a husband who
05:46is drinking quite heavily,
05:48and you've got a father that is abusing you.
05:50So in terms of her quality of life, it was traumatic and not very good at all.
05:58The relationship deteriorated with his alcoholism, debt.
06:03He was terrible with money, but everybody thought he was a fun-loving person, happy-go-lucky.
06:09But Carol thought he was becoming evil and got them into debt, and he was unfaithful with other women.
06:21But Richard Ray was not the only man in Carol's life or in her bed.
06:29Throughout the early years of her relationship with Richard Ray, even through the period where she gave birth twice to
06:41the couple's children,
06:43John Stoker continued sexually to abuse his daughter.
06:51Now, when someone is abused at such a young age and so extensively, it creates often very problematic behaviours,
07:00both in childhood and in adult life as well.
07:03You are not able to deal with things in a typical way, often.
07:09You don't have healthy coping mechanisms very often.
07:13In 1977, Carol became pregnant with her father's child.
07:20She was forced to have an abortion to hide what he had been inflicting on her.
07:28And her life began spiralling ever further into depression and out of control.
07:39I mean, that's a perfect storm, isn't it?
07:41Absolutely. I mean, something has to break, doesn't it?
07:44It's such a build-up of dealing with so much that something has to give.
07:48How did Carol Ray's break happen?
07:52The first incident that we can pinpoint is the abortion of the child that would have been her father's, and
08:00that's in 1977.
08:02So, in December 1977, she sets fire to the family home.
08:09She set fire to a lot of clothes in the house and caused a big fire.
08:15Nobody was injured and they all escaped, but they had to move from the house.
08:20So, what we often see with particularly females who have been abused by family members is they lack a sense
08:27of control in their lives.
08:30And sometimes they will resort to problem behaviours to try and get that attention, to get some control over things.
08:36And one of those things that people often do is things like fire setting.
08:42And fire setting, particularly in Arsenal, are often seen as types of crimes that will attract a lot of attention.
08:49It's very destructive, obviously, but also there will be fire engines and people and a whole kind of commotion that
08:56goes with it.
08:57And that, to the person who's trying to get that psychological input from the event, can be quite powerful.
09:05Statistically, it's quite unusual for an arsonist to be female.
09:10And Carol was quite prolific in her fire setting.
09:14And this was usually as a reaction to particularly stressful periods in her life,
09:20or they occurred after an accumulation of particular stresses.
09:27So, we know from your timeline that December 1977, that's the first time that she starts a fire in response
09:38to trauma.
09:39Was she trying to hurt people?
09:41Was she trying to hurt herself?
09:43It's certainly a trigger response pattern that we're seeing.
09:50Carol Ray was an arsonist because she was an abused child, and because she continued to be an abused adult.
10:17Richard and Carol marry.
10:19The children are taken into care.
10:21Richard then loses his job or becomes redundant, and that is causing him to drink heavily.
10:30So, whether Carol is then thinking that she's about to become the victim of two abusive men.
10:38Her father is still, you know, abusing her.
10:42She's got all that abuse in her background.
10:44And then, Carol's sister confides in her that she has been abused by her father,
10:52which Carol had no idea of up until that point.
10:59Although Carol Ray tried to escape her dad, and he tracked her down,
11:02and he continued that abuse so significantly that she needed to have an abortion
11:07because he had actually impregnated her, it's not unusual that that abuse would then trauma bond
11:16someone like Ray to her dad.
11:19When Ray actually finds out that her sister is being abused, also at the hands of her father,
11:25she isn't able to cope with this.
11:28She becomes almost jealous of that.
11:31Carol loved her father because she said, she actually said,
11:34For all he did, I loved him.
11:37And I think she wanted him to herself, not to her sister and everybody else.
11:44While to people who haven't suffered that level of abuse, that would seem absolutely outrageous.
11:51It's this trauma bonding, and that happens when someone has been abused at such a young age,
11:57and so significantly as well.
12:00That's where we see the fire starting, as a response to being unable to cope with stress
12:06in a normal, healthy way.
12:11In November 1980, Carol sets her second house fire,
12:16and this time there are eight people, including herself, in the house.
12:22She set fire to the clothes in the airing cupboard, and caused a major fire,
12:29from which she went upstairs, allegedly to warn her parents.
12:35The three brothers jumped out of the bedroom window and got seriously injured with broken bones,
12:41and she jumped out as well and broke her arm.
12:43The fireman who attended the scene said it was like a battlefield,
12:48with them all laying round with injuries.
12:50The house became totally gutted, but everything else was saved.
12:56It was eventually, though it was held to be a bit suspicious, put down to an electrical fault.
13:03In terms of forensic fire investigation, then there are three elements, really.
13:12The cause of the fire, how it developed, and then potentially who was responsible.
13:19So when you're dealing with a case from the 1970s,
13:25when the fuel to start a fire was effectively our home furnishings,
13:32which could be ignited through very simple means of just holding a match,
13:37then it meant that the cause of fire was very often established
13:44to be the things that were available in the home.
13:47And the intent to start that fire suddenly becomes a very difficult prospect to investigate
13:55because we know that people who smoked in their homes
13:59would potentially cause these fires inadvertently or just totally by accident.
14:06So, of course, when that fire is started intentionally,
14:10it makes the investigation of intent very difficult indeed.
14:18It seems to have been the answer to all the problems
14:20is if I want a new house, I'll burn the one out down I'm in.
14:24If I'm in debt, I'll set fires and I'll get some money.
14:29Or if Richard wasn't behaving himself,
14:31that she could force him due to the fire to conform, to stop drinking.
14:38I think what could be interesting in this particular case
14:42is that Carol is hospitalised for four weeks.
14:45So, when you're in hospital,
14:48it's a lot more difficult for people to abuse you.
14:51You're being cared, you're warm, you're in a safe environment,
14:55people are actively taking care of you.
14:58In her mind, this isn't just releasing the safety valve
15:02that she needs when the pressure builds up too much.
15:05It actually rewards her.
15:07Yes.
15:08So, after this oasis of calm,
15:10she's thrown back in the maelstrom of her family life.
15:14Yes.
15:15Or, is this another reward that her children are returned to her?
15:19So, that might be a double reinforcement
15:21in terms of the behaviours that you're then going to see going forward.
15:26But the underlying problem is still there.
15:28Yes.
15:29So, November 1980 was a fire that caused her to be hospitalised
15:33and you've got a five-year build.
15:35So, that's a long time.
15:37On the 24th of September,
15:40Carol sets light to her family home
15:42and this time, it has fatal consequences.
15:48Again, she became unhappy with where she was.
15:52Richard was drinking again heavily.
15:54In fact, he was regularly falling asleep downstairs, drinking.
16:00Though he got well with the neighbours
16:02and they thought he was a nice person.
16:05He would spend long periods of time unemployed.
16:08He had an issue with alcohol
16:10and would often drink away what little money they did have as a family.
16:14And she also tried to support three children
16:17within that environment as well.
16:20Her youngest child was a daughter
16:23who suffered quite significantly due to disabilities,
16:27which she was born with.
16:28That was, again, an additional stressor for Ray
16:32within that family environment.
16:36The night of Tuesday, September 24th, 1985,
16:39was pretty much like any other night
16:42in that family's life.
16:46Richard got drunk on cider and passed out on the sofa.
16:52Carol put the children to bed.
16:56She'd come to a stage where Richard was drinking,
17:00that she couldn't live with it anymore, in her mind.
17:04So he'd been out to a pub, had a few drinks,
17:08and on the way back he'd met a neighbour,
17:11and they were both out actually walking the dogs.
17:15And the neighbour said he was in a good mood,
17:18there was nothing to it, but he went back home,
17:20and then he continued drinking bottles of cider
17:24until he fell asleep,
17:25which had sort of become a practice.
17:30On those occasions, Carol couldn't manage to wake him up again.
17:34So on this night, she'd had enough.
17:39They were in debt,
17:41and she was fed up with him drinking.
17:45Her anger and her pain was bubbling up.
17:50And while her husband snored,
17:56she struck a match
17:58and carefully placed it on the arm of a chair.
18:06Very quickly, the living room went up in flames.
18:13The television exploded.
18:16The windows blew out.
18:19Carol's screams woke up her children.
18:23Mary, who was then 14,
18:26grabbed her brother, Sean,
18:28then aged 12,
18:30and dragged him to safety out the front door.
18:35Amanda, 11 years old,
18:38was so severely disabled
18:40that she wasn't able to escape.
18:49Amanda was left in the house.
18:51Carol made no attempt to go back in
18:53and get Amanda,
18:55or to help her husband,
18:56out of the fire.
18:59There was an eyewitness account,
19:01and it said that
19:03Ray was just stood in the living room,
19:05motionless,
19:06looking out
19:07into the world,
19:08and it was only after a period of time
19:11that she then
19:12tried to escape.
19:18Carol was standing
19:19inside the house
19:22as the flames
19:23were building up,
19:25and yet she did nothing.
19:27What does that indicate to you?
19:30There are several schools of thought here,
19:32isn't there,
19:32or several lines of thought
19:33that you could go down.
19:34Was she waiting to be rescued?
19:37Was she waiting to die?
19:40Was she hoping that the fire
19:42wouldn't spread as much as it did?
19:44I think it's difficult
19:46to tell what her mindset.
19:48Was she finally ready
19:50to go with the rest of the family
19:52and didn't want to be separated from them?
19:55There's a couple of things
19:56which can be read from that,
19:57potentially.
19:57That is,
19:58someone who
20:00doesn't really have much consideration
20:01for any life around her,
20:03someone who is
20:05completely resigned
20:06to the fact that
20:07she's going to die
20:09and she has set this house on fire,
20:11and
20:12it's almost in,
20:13in kind of a suicidal ideation.
20:16But then there's also
20:17the other side to that
20:19where she doesn't relate
20:20setting the fire
20:21to cause and harm,
20:23particularly to her children.
20:26And the neighbours describe her
20:28as just walking about impassive,
20:33outside as if in a trance
20:35and not really bothered
20:36about what was happening
20:37until she noticed people
20:39were watching at her
20:40when she would start screaming,
20:42saying,
20:42my children are in the house.
20:44the fire brigade came
20:46and found Richard
20:48dead,
20:50having died
20:50through inhalation
20:52of smoke.
20:55And Amanda
20:55was in the bedroom.
20:57She had 35% degree burns
20:59and was,
21:00they were resuscitated
21:02at the scene
21:03and she was taken
21:04to hospital.
21:07Twelve days
21:08after Carol Ray
21:09set that fire,
21:11her daughter,
21:12Amanda,
21:13died.
21:31Carol Ray
21:32causing a fire,
21:33which has ultimately led
21:34to the death
21:35of her own child,
21:36is incredibly shocking
21:38and incredibly sad.
21:40a parent's main job
21:43in their life
21:43is to look after
21:44their child,
21:45is to make them feel safe
21:47and there's often
21:48more emphasis
21:49placed on this
21:50when it's a mother
21:51and a child
21:51because of that
21:53historic maternal role.
21:55in terms of forensic fire investigation
21:59then it would have
22:01definitely been
22:02an observation-based investigation
22:06so
22:08firefighters would have
22:10entered that property
22:11with the primary purpose
22:14of extinguishing any fire
22:15and then beyond that
22:17would have then
22:17tried to establish
22:19the cause of that fire.
22:20now if the cause
22:22of that fire
22:22was a piece
22:24of furniture
22:24that had been ignited
22:26in the property
22:26then it's very difficult
22:28to suddenly start
22:30to pick that apart
22:31from an accident
22:33versus something
22:34that was intentional
22:35and effectively started
22:38in order to commit murder.
22:41She convinced everybody
22:43that he'd caused the fire
22:45by accidentally
22:46dropping a cigarette
22:47while drunk.
22:48At the inquest
22:50she persisted
22:50with that story
22:51to the extent
22:53that the jury believed her
22:54and recorded
22:55an accidental verdict
22:57for the deaths.
22:59The coroner
23:00commended her
23:01for her actions
23:02in getting the other
23:03two children out
23:04which in fact
23:05she hadn't.
23:08What is interesting
23:10is that Carol
23:12then receives
23:13a commendation
23:14from the coroner.
23:15So although her husband
23:16and her disabled daughter
23:18have been killed
23:19Yes.
23:21because of the fire
23:21she started
23:22Yes.
23:23Carol is essentially
23:24treated as a hero.
23:26Yes.
23:27So
23:28we're going back
23:30to that positive
23:30reinforcement.
23:32She's come out
23:33and been rewarded
23:35for starting a fire.
23:37In terms of that
23:38positive reinforcement
23:40of behaviours
23:41that's now
23:42the second time
23:43that you've started
23:44a fire
23:44and you've got
23:45something positive
23:47from it
23:47despite the fact
23:49her husband
23:50and her child
23:51have died.
23:54It's very likely
23:56that Ray
23:56got a release
23:58from starting
23:59the fires.
24:00She had no
24:01outlet
24:02for her
24:03anger
24:04for her frustration
24:05for her trauma
24:05so often
24:06setting a fire
24:07would be akin
24:08to a release
24:09for her.
24:10However
24:11when she was then
24:12praised
24:13for rescuing
24:14members of her family
24:16from one of the fires
24:17that potentially
24:18would have given her
24:19a bit of a thrill
24:20because she was
24:21suddenly seen
24:21as someone
24:22who was important
24:23who was useful
24:23someone who
24:24had a purpose
24:25in life
24:26and someone
24:26who was needed
24:27as well.
24:29She obviously
24:29was of the belief
24:30that nobody
24:31would catch her
24:32having gone through
24:33the coroners
24:34and got accidental
24:35death verdicts
24:36she thought
24:37she'd got away
24:38with it
24:38in fact
24:39committed
24:40the perfect murder.
24:44And for the next
24:46five years
24:46because it is
24:47from what
24:48your chart shows
24:49it is another
24:50five years
24:51between that
24:53fatal fire
24:53and the next one
24:55yes
24:55Carol Ray
24:56essentially gets
24:58away with murder
24:58yes
24:59she does
25:00I mean
25:00that is as
25:01close to
25:02a perfect murder
25:04if you like
25:05as you can imagine
25:07isn't it?
25:07and is rewarded
25:10for her efforts
25:11yeah
25:11absolutely
25:12but
25:13all of the
25:15underlying
25:16familial problems
25:19apart from her
25:20husband
25:20yes
25:21and disabled
25:22daughter
25:22still exist
25:24they do
25:29Ray got away
25:30with the murders
25:31of her family
25:32members
25:32for many years
25:34this may have
25:35been something
25:36which
25:36she felt
25:38haunted her
25:39because
25:39their deaths
25:40were never
25:41premeditated
25:42or it was
25:43never intentional
25:43to kill them
25:44but she also
25:46was able to
25:46quite convincingly
25:47lie about
25:48the cause
25:50of the fires
25:50initially
25:51so it might have
25:52been something
25:53that haunted her
25:54but actually
25:54she also may
25:56have just tried
25:56to forget
25:58that this had
25:58happened
25:58and move on
26:00particularly
26:00if it wasn't
26:01intentional
26:01and this
26:02fire starting
26:03came from
26:04a need for
26:05a release
26:05of trauma
26:06and stress
26:12by 1990
26:14she
26:15Mary and
26:17Sean
26:17were living
26:18in a new
26:19council house
26:20in Gargrave
26:21close
26:22Rastrick
26:23just six miles
26:24from the scene
26:25of the fire
26:26which had killed
26:27her husband
26:28and daughter
26:29she was living
26:30with another woman
26:32a woman whom
26:33she'd taken in
26:34as a lodger
26:35who had a young
26:36daughter
26:37they had started
26:39a relationship
26:40we could never
26:41get to the bottom
26:42of exactly
26:42what the relationship
26:43was
26:45unfortunately
26:46that lodger
26:47Dawn Holroyd
26:48had a boyfriend
26:48and on the night
26:50of Wednesday
26:50January the 24th
26:521990
26:52Dawn went out
26:54on a date
26:55with her boyfriend
26:56leaving her infant
26:57daughter
26:58in Carol Ray's care
27:00and Carol thought
27:02if I start
27:03a small fire
27:03she'll come back
27:05home straight away
27:06so she set fire
27:08to the curtains
27:08in the dining room
27:12the fire got
27:13out of control
27:14but she got
27:15the children
27:16out of the house
27:17that were there
27:18and the fire brigade
27:19came
27:20in the aftermath
27:21of the fire
27:22Ray explained
27:23that it was
27:24an accident
27:25that it had
27:26potentially been
27:26caused by
27:27an electrical fault
27:28and that was
27:30something which
27:31in hindsight
27:33was seen
27:33as quite unusual
27:34because she
27:35had obviously
27:36started the fire
27:37but then was
27:38very calm
27:39and very
27:39calculated
27:40in the way
27:41that she described
27:42it as being
27:42an accident
27:44that fire
27:46fortunately
27:46no one died in
27:48no fatal
27:49consequences
27:49to that fire
27:50no
27:50but it did
27:51have consequences
27:52yes
27:54by this point
27:55the association
27:57between Carol Ray
27:58and house fires
28:00is starting
28:01to become evident
28:04one of the firemen
28:05who was there
28:06thought it was
28:07suspicious
28:07that he'd been
28:08to her house
28:10on three occasions
28:11where there was
28:12a fire
28:12and Carol Ray
28:14was always present
28:14and he mentioned
28:16it to one of
28:17the uniformed
28:17police officers
28:18who was there
28:19who reported
28:21the conversation
28:22to a detective
28:24constable
28:25Philip Jagger
28:27who came to me
28:29with it
28:29and said
28:31give outline
28:32the circumstances
28:33and what the fire brigade
28:35believed was a deliberate
28:36fire in the house
28:38I then asked Philip
28:40to do a full antecedent history
28:42on her
28:44on Carol Ray
28:48the Halifax area
28:49was broken up
28:50into three areas
28:51and she had moved
28:53between all three
28:54and the fires
28:55had been committed
28:56in those three areas
28:57and of course
28:58there were different fire stations
29:00that dealt with them
29:01in effect
29:02each time
29:03there was a fire
29:04it was as if
29:05it was the first time
29:06that she had done it
29:09because we didn't have
29:10the technology available
29:11to digitally
29:13link these
29:14situations together
29:16quickly
29:17then it would
29:18provide that
29:19kind of distance
29:20and time
29:24that prevented
29:26the situations
29:27being linked immediately
29:29but of course
29:30once you start to
29:31put police work
29:33on top of that
29:34and forensic fire investigation
29:36and start to
29:37identify patterns
29:39in the way
29:40that the fires
29:42took place
29:43and the circumstances
29:44around those fires
29:46took place
29:47then it starts
29:48to close that net
29:50really around
29:51Carol Ray
29:53we created a timeline
29:55of her offending
29:56we spoke to as many
29:58of the
29:59people who lived
30:00near her at the time
30:01especially the one
30:03where her husband died
30:04and they'd all said
30:06that they'd raised
30:07concerns about that fire
30:08at the time
30:09but
30:11nobody could prove anything
30:12some of them gave evidence
30:14at the coroner's call
30:16but her previous fires
30:18we'd never
30:19known about
30:20or became evidence
30:22in that inquest
30:24a large part
30:27of investigation
30:28now
30:28is looking at
30:30patterns
30:30and themes
30:32of crime
30:33so the data analysis
30:35around investigation
30:37is so much more
30:38sophisticated
30:39potentially
30:39than it would have been
30:40in the 1970s
30:42we have databases
30:44available
30:44we have
30:45linked computer systems
30:48that allow us
30:49to predict
30:50and identify
30:52patterns
30:53in crime
30:54and so in this case
30:56these fires
30:57are persistently
30:58happening
30:58on her watch
31:00and of course
31:01now that would be
31:03flagged immediately
31:04as a pattern
31:06that would
31:07almost certainly
31:08require investigation
31:13at this point
31:15the police
31:16arrested Carol Ray
31:18for the murder
31:19of her husband
31:20Richard
31:20and of her daughter
31:22Amanda
31:22and for setting
31:23three other fires
31:25with intent
31:26to endanger life
31:32they interviewed her
31:33but she didn't
31:35confess when she
31:36first came in
31:38unusually
31:39but with Carol Ray
31:40they had to interview
31:41the opposite way around
31:42they had to start
31:43with her last defence
31:45because we had
31:46clear evidence
31:48then that it wasn't
31:49an accident
31:50so it was then
31:51talking to her
31:52about that
31:53then introduce
31:54the other offences
31:55and the more
31:57they talked about
31:58the one with
31:59her husband dying
32:00and the previous
32:01offences
32:01of arson
32:03at the parents' house
32:04when everybody
32:05got injured
32:06she suddenly realised
32:08that she wasn't
32:09going to get away
32:10with it
32:10so then she used
32:12the defence
32:12it was all because
32:14her father had been
32:16committing incest
32:17with her
32:17and was still
32:19committing incest
32:19with her
32:20up to
32:22two years
32:23before she was
32:23arrested
32:25she has a story
32:27to tell
32:27doesn't she
32:28which she says
32:29explains
32:30why she starts
32:32fires
32:32Carol reveals
32:34the background
32:35of abuse
32:36that her
32:36and her sister
32:37have been subjected
32:38to
32:38and as a result
32:40of that
32:41John Stoker
32:42is arrested
32:44and he's charged
32:45with sexual assault
32:46we actually did
32:47arrest the father
32:48and he served
32:50ten years
32:51for incest
32:54it's difficult
32:55to know
32:55whether Ray
32:56meant to
32:56intentionally
32:57kill her
32:58family members
32:59but she also
33:00continued to
33:01start fires
33:02at particular
33:02stressed points
33:03within her life
33:04when she was
33:06finally arrested
33:07she seemed
33:08almost
33:09pleased
33:10and relieved
33:11to be able
33:12to confess
33:12to the murders
33:13so it suggests
33:14that it may have
33:15been playing
33:16on her mind
33:16for some time
33:17but that's not
33:18to say
33:19that she felt
33:20gleeful
33:21that she had
33:22got away
33:22with murder
33:23if she hadn't
33:24meant to
33:25cause such
33:26significant harm
33:27she may have
33:28felt that this
33:29was almost now
33:29a cathartic release
33:30being able to confess
33:34during the interview
33:35she then started
33:36to talk about
33:37herself
33:37actually in the
33:38third person
33:39there was no
33:39real sign of
33:41a mental illness
33:42any kind of
33:43delusional behaviour
33:44that would have
33:45would have
33:45explained that
33:46and it's almost
33:47like she couldn't
33:48accept that she'd
33:49done it
33:50but she was
33:50willing to talk
33:51about the crime
33:53and explain what
33:54had happened
33:54but using a
33:55third person
33:56we sometimes
33:57find these
33:57situations
33:58where people
33:58will talk
33:59about
34:00I was there
34:01when the person
34:02died
34:02but I wasn't
34:03responsible
34:03for the murder
34:04but there was
34:04nobody else
34:05there either
34:05and it's the
34:06kind of way
34:07of protecting
34:08themselves
34:08and protecting
34:09their own
34:09integrity
34:10because they're
34:11not quite
34:11able to come
34:12to terms
34:13with what
34:13they've done
34:15it's difficult
34:16to comprehend
34:18how you could
34:19have looked
34:20at all of
34:21this fire
34:22after fire
34:23after fire
34:23two deaths
34:25severe injuries
34:28yes
34:28and then heard
34:29someone say
34:31yeah I did
34:33start the fires
34:34but I didn't
34:35mean to
34:35I mean
34:36that's going to
34:37engender a fairly
34:39sceptical response
34:40isn't it
34:40yes it absolutely
34:41would
34:42and the minute
34:44you make the
34:45connection
34:45between the
34:47September 85
34:48and then November
34:491980 fires
34:51it automatically
34:51would have sent
34:52us back in time
34:53to look
34:53and then if you
34:54see a 1977 fire
34:56where Carol is
34:56you then start to
34:58see the pattern
34:59of behaviour
35:00she'd accepted
35:01what she'd done
35:02in her mind
35:03and she felt
35:04justified
35:05but now she was
35:06just looking for
35:07excuses
35:08why she did it
35:09to try and
35:11mitigate
35:12the full effect
35:13of what it was
35:13and her criminality
35:15but
35:16there's no doubt
35:18when things
35:19didn't go her way
35:20she saw
35:21her answer
35:22to it
35:23was to start
35:24fire
35:25as what she did
35:26in every time
35:27when there was a
35:27crisis
35:28in her life
35:44Carol Ray
35:45essentially got
35:46away with murder
35:46for years
35:47if her intention
35:49wasn't
35:49to kill
35:51certainly her
35:52daughter
35:52then that is
35:54something which
35:54may have played
35:56on her mind
35:57for that entire
35:58time
35:59she is someone
36:00who was very
36:02calm
36:03explaining that
36:04the fire was
36:05an accident
36:05initially
36:06but then when
36:07she was later
36:07arrested
36:08she seemed
36:09almost relieved
36:10to admit
36:11what she had
36:11done
36:12so it's very
36:13likely that it
36:14might have
36:14played on her
36:15mind
36:15particularly if
36:16it wasn't
36:18an intentional
36:19death for
36:20her daughter
36:20at least
36:26so looking at
36:27the family
36:28the family
36:29association
36:29chart
36:30you draw
36:31at this
36:32point
36:32in 1990
36:34her father
36:35is on
36:36remand
36:36for sexual
36:37abuse
36:37her sister
36:38is recovering
36:39or dealing
36:41with trauma
36:41from sexual
36:42abuse
36:42so is
36:43Carol
36:43her husband
36:45is dead
36:45her disabled
36:46daughter
36:47is dead
36:47I mean this
36:48is a
36:49metaphorically
36:49a fire
36:50that's consuming
36:50this entire
36:52family
36:52yes
36:53and all
36:54based in
36:55childhood
36:56trauma
36:59on the
37:00surface
37:00it might be
37:00very easy
37:01to say
37:01that Ray
37:02had
37:02psychopathic
37:03behaviours
37:04however
37:05we need
37:05to remember
37:06the significant
37:07trauma
37:07that she
37:08had experienced
37:09throughout her
37:09life
37:10and the way
37:10that trauma
37:11manifests itself
37:12as people
37:14mature
37:15this is not
37:16to excuse
37:17what she has
37:17done
37:18but to
37:19explain
37:19why
37:21she has
37:21taken
37:22the quite
37:22unusual
37:22action
37:23of
37:24starting
37:24fires
37:26she was
37:27incredibly
37:28let down
37:28by
37:29the first
37:30man
37:31who is
37:31supposed
37:32to protect
37:32her
37:33and yet
37:33he was
37:34someone
37:34who
37:35essentially
37:36hunted
37:37her down
37:37when she
37:38fled
37:38and tried
37:39to escape
37:39him
37:40and he
37:41continued
37:41to abuse
37:41it
37:42even
37:42into adulthood
37:42so these
37:44are
37:44things
37:45that most
37:45people
37:46thankfully
37:46would never
37:47have to
37:47deal with
37:48and would
37:48never have
37:49to manage
37:52she is
37:53charged
37:53with murder
37:54she is
37:55and endangering
37:56life
37:56yes
37:57and she
37:59offers
38:00a plea
38:01doesn't she
38:02she says
38:03I won't plead
38:03guilty to murder
38:04but I will plead
38:05guilty to manslaughter
38:07and the police
38:09and the prosecutors
38:09won't accept
38:11that
38:11they say
38:12no you're going
38:12to trial
38:13so by this
38:14time the case
38:15would have been
38:15built
38:16the investigation
38:17would have
38:17understood
38:18the pattern
38:18that had
38:19formed
38:19and that
38:20actually
38:21Carol
38:21is the
38:22common denominator
38:23in all four
38:24fires
38:25and manslaughter
38:27is a plea
38:29that is put
38:29forward for when
38:30somebody dies
38:31is in accidental
38:34circumstances
38:35there was no
38:35great premeditation
38:36there was no
38:37great premeditation
38:38you look at
38:39four fires
38:41and you have
38:42to ask
38:43were they
38:44planned
38:45not necessarily
38:46they were
38:46a response
38:47to trigger
38:47but you carried
38:48on doing it
38:49and that third
38:50fire
38:51killed your
38:52husband and
38:53your daughter
38:54so you knew
38:55what the potential
38:57consequences were
38:58really she knew
38:59at the second
38:59fire
39:00how hurt
39:01people could
39:02become in
39:02houseblazers
39:03and she chooses
39:05to carry on
39:06that behaviour
39:08Carol Ray
39:09pleading guilty
39:10to manslaughter
39:11would save
39:12the substantial
39:14cost
39:15of a full
39:15trial
39:16and would
39:17spare witnesses
39:19from the trauma
39:20of having to
39:21relive
39:22what they had
39:23seen
39:23but the police
39:25and prosecutors
39:26to their credit
39:27refused to do
39:29that
39:29they said
39:31no
39:31Carol Ray
39:32you deliberately
39:34set those fires
39:35you did so
39:37knowing
39:38that people
39:39were in the house
39:40and you
39:41were reckless
39:42at best
39:43as to whether
39:44they would survive
39:47and so in
39:49December 1990
39:50Carol Ray
39:51went on trial
39:53for murder
39:55two counts of murder
39:56three counts of arson
40:00she pleaded
40:01she pleaded originally
40:02guilty to manslaughter
40:05saying that she
40:06had set the fires
40:07but didn't intend to injure anybody
40:10this wasn't acceptable to the prosecution
40:13or the police
40:15and we persisted with the trial for murder
40:19after the judge sent the jury out
40:21after his summing up
40:22they deliberated
40:24they deliberated for three hours
40:25they came back
40:27with guilty verdicts
40:28on the murders
40:30they didn't accept
40:31the manslaughter
40:33and the judge
40:35said that it was the only outcome
40:36he thought she was a danger
40:38to the public
40:39and always would be
40:40with the persistence of fires
40:42when she had a
40:43personal problem
40:45and gave her five life sentences
40:49and he told her
40:51she was
40:52and would remain
40:54a danger
40:55to the public
40:58when Carol was sentenced
41:00she showed no sign of remorse
41:02she was impassive
41:04to the sentence
41:04as if she
41:06knew what she'd done
41:07and she was accepting
41:08what was coming
41:10by the time
41:12Carol Ray
41:13emerges
41:13if she ever does
41:16she will be a pensioner
41:20it's very difficult
41:21to know
41:21what Ray's prospects
41:23for rehabilitation
41:24would be
41:25because
41:25it would require
41:27significant
41:29therapy
41:30and significant work
41:32around the trauma
41:33that she has
41:34been exposed to
41:35throughout her life
41:37she would have to do
41:38some significant work
41:39around unpicking
41:41all of that
41:42and dealing with those issues
41:43to get past
41:44all of that trauma
41:45not least
41:46the trauma
41:47that would probably
41:48have come from the fact
41:49that she'd also killed
41:50her own child
41:52is there a lesson
41:54you draw from this
41:56because there is
41:56for me
41:57it is really
41:59looking at
42:01trauma
42:02and the
42:03fatal effects
42:04that that can have
42:05on somebody
42:06and trying to get
42:07interventions
42:07and supporting
42:10as early
42:11as you possibly can
42:12to stop those
42:13behaviours developing
42:14if you don't
42:17interrupt
42:17the cycle
42:18if you don't
42:19investigate
42:20early
42:20then you're going
42:22to be fishing bodies
42:23out of houses
42:24later on
42:25I think for here
42:26you're talking about
42:27where should the
42:28intervention points
42:29have been
42:29and where should
42:30that support
42:31and social support
42:33have come from
42:34to make sure
42:35that social support
42:36isn't disruptive
42:37or destructive
42:39so taking
42:41Carol's children
42:42away might not
42:43necessarily
42:43have been the
42:45right course of action
42:46and may have just
42:47added to that
42:48and also looking
42:49at abuse
42:50and the effect
42:51that has
42:51that early trauma
42:53is something
42:54that needs a lot
42:54more care
42:55and attention
42:55around it
43:00I remember this
43:01Chris
43:03because
43:05it's unusual
43:06that you find
43:06somebody who
43:07persistently
43:09sets fires
43:10with a view
43:12of changing
43:13her life
43:13normally people
43:15do it
43:15because they
43:16enjoy watching
43:16fires
43:17or they have
43:18a fascination
43:19for them
43:20but hers
43:21was for a
43:21specific purpose
43:22she was in debt
43:24she didn't like
43:25her house
43:26the council
43:27would rehouse
43:27her
43:27she didn't like
43:29her husband
43:29she can kill him
43:31she didn't like
43:32a girlfriend
43:32who she was
43:33living with
43:34going out with
43:35another man
43:36I'll set a fire
43:37and she'll come
43:38home
43:38stay with me
43:39it was all
43:40to do
43:41with what she
43:42wanted
43:43how she felt
43:44emotionally
43:45and she put
43:47everything down
43:48to her father
43:51it's a case
43:52which could
43:54have been avoided
43:54Carol Ray
43:55engaged with
43:57some very
43:58very unhealthy
43:59coping mechanisms
44:00to deal with
44:01the trauma
44:01that she had
44:02experienced
44:03throughout her life
44:04had she have
44:06had more support
44:07had she have
44:08had
44:09someone who
44:11cared for her
44:12someone who
44:13didn't abuse her
44:14in the way
44:15that her own
44:15father did
44:16then she might
44:17never have reached
44:18a point in her
44:18life where she
44:19set fires and
44:20ultimately fires
44:21which were lethal
44:22so I think what
44:23sticks in my mind
44:24is although this
44:25is utterly horrific
44:27there were several
44:28victims left behind
44:30in terms of
44:31Carol Ray's
44:31behaviour
44:32it's also quite
44:33a tragic case
44:34because of the
44:35level of trauma
44:36and abuse
44:37that Carol Ray
44:38suffered
44:39she went on
44:40then to cause
44:41significant harm
44:41to her own
44:42family members
44:46ultimately
44:48Carol Ray
44:49almost
44:50got away
44:52she did for
44:53five years
44:54yeah
44:54what stopped
44:56her getting
44:57away with it
44:57her next
44:59offence
44:59compulsion
45:01undoubtedly
45:02what really
45:03struck me
45:04when I looked
45:05at this
45:05incredible timeline
45:07you drew up
45:08with all the
45:08key events
45:09was that
45:12right from
45:13there
45:14right from
45:15that first
45:16moment
45:17where
45:18John Stoker
45:19went into
45:20his 11 year
45:21old daughter's
45:22bedroom
45:22and raped her
45:24yes
45:26that
45:27end point
45:29was always
45:30going to be
45:31the outcome
45:31or something
45:32very similar
45:33yeah
45:33and the
45:34culpability
45:35and it's only
45:37when you see
45:37it laid out
45:38like that
45:38that it
45:39becomes
45:39crystal clear
45:40yes
45:42during the
45:44investigation
45:45it became
45:45clear
45:47that in
45:471985
45:48she had
45:49committed
45:50the perfect
45:51murder
45:51she had
45:52got away
45:53with it
45:53she showed
45:54no remorse
45:55and it took
45:56her five years
45:57for her
45:59criminality
46:00and her actions
46:01to come to
46:02light properly
46:02and for her
46:03to be sentenced
46:04for the crime
46:06that she did
46:06commit five years
46:07earlier
46:07to be
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