00:08Annalena Baerbock, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews.
00:12The first question, and this is really a statement, perhaps not even to get political, but it really has shocked
00:18Europeans,
00:19is that statement from the president of the U.S. suggesting that a civilization could be wiped out beyond the
00:25politics.
00:25The Pope talked about a question of morality. Is that something that you can support and rally behind?
00:32Well, human rights and international law is based on our common understanding of humanity, on our moral grounds,
00:39because the United Nations was built on the massacres of the Second World War,
00:44on a genocide committed by my own country, Germany, against the Jews and the murdering worldwide.
00:51And this is why this debate about that international law would be something theoretical, and we would not need it.
00:58We have, unfortunately, heard it also from some European governments.
01:03It's, first of all, not based in our history, because it has always been the same sign of our common
01:10understanding of humanity.
01:12And you say it's being attacked, and some would argue it's no longer even being applied across the world.
01:17We've entered now into a new era, perhaps. But who is going to defend it? Is the U.N. still
01:23capacitated to play this role?
01:25The U.N. is not a single individual actor. It's the composition of 193 very diverse member states.
01:32And, as we all know, we also have the Security Council, where five member states have a special responsibility.
01:40But, unfortunately, in these times, they do not all take up their responsibility, but take their veto rights,
01:47which they also have, to defend even the breach of international law.
01:52And this is why the rest of the international community is needed so much to come together.
01:58And, yes, we see this defense of international law.
02:01For example, the Central Asian state, they find an agreement on the disputes over borders,
02:08which they had for decades, just in the last year, combining also with cooperation on water.
02:13And this is especially the strength of the United Nations to prevent a crisis of even getting bigger.
02:19Unfortunately, as we see it around the world, it's not possible everywhere,
02:23especially if P5 members decide to do the opposite.
02:27And, of course, you mentioned this veto and some countries that do not use it responsibly.
02:32That's clearly a reference to Russia.
02:33We've seen much criticism over the past year, suggesting that the U.N. is part of the problem,
02:39that the U.N. has not been able to adapt to new times,
02:42that the U.N. has not been able to resolve any major conflict over the past two years,
02:46and that it has become obsolete.
02:48Is that fair criticism?
02:49Without any doubt, the U.N. needs a deep reform, but we're in the midst of this reform.
02:54It's called U.N. 80.
02:55Since 17 years, we are trying to reform the Security Council.
02:59We just touched with the veto initiative.
03:02But, unfortunately, it needs the agreement also by the members of the Security Council.
03:07And I always relate a bit to the national context.
03:10Because, for example, also in all our European countries,
03:15we have clear rules that you should not kill anybody.
03:19Unfortunately, murder still happens.
03:21And nobody would say, OK, we should just get rid of the criminal code now,
03:25because we could not prevent the murders.
03:28But police and the work in society has to do as much as to counter it.
03:34And it's the same for the United Nations.
03:35We have to do every day to be better than the day before.
03:40But we heavily depend on the member states.
03:43And if a member state starts a war of aggression, then it's not the U.N. failing.
03:49The charter is not clear enough that this is not allowed.
03:52But it's a member state who is in well-awareness of breaching the charter,
03:57pressing this war forward.
03:59And this is why it needs the counterpressure from other member states as well.
04:03And there's a quote of one of the former secretary general,
04:06which I think is important to remember, what the U.N. is for.
04:10It says, the U.N. was built not to bring humanity to heaven,
04:15but to prevent humanity from hell.
04:17So it's not to have the perfect place, but in dear crisis,
04:22like we are seeing right now, for example, the war in Ukraine
04:24or the war we had in Gaza, that still the U.N. is delivering food,
04:29that they are rebuilding energy, that they are providing schools for children
04:34where the schools have been destroyed.
04:36Half of the children worldwide would not have been vaccinated without the U.N.
04:40So there's so much more work than the obviously big, big fault
04:44that we have a blockage in the Security Council.
04:47The U.S., President Trump, I say this because they have been incredibly vocal
04:51about saying the U.N. has not simply solved anything over the past two years.
04:55Ukraine, not fixed it.
04:56In the Gulf, not doing much.
04:58With Gaza, all of this criticism, do you take it as fair or do you ultimately go,
05:02well, yes, the U.N. may not be working in the way that it should be
05:05because it's not being given the tools or just simply because it's being sabotaged,
05:09not just by Russia, but also an attempt by the U.S.
05:12to make it simply not relevant anymore?
05:14If you use a veto that you cannot come to a decision in a Security Council
05:17and then you complain that you could not come to an agreement,
05:20obviously it's also the responsibility of those who are casting a veto,
05:24and especially with regard to the Middle East and the situation in Gaza.
05:28It has been many times the U.S. administration casting a veto.
05:32But we have seen, and I don't want to sugarcoat anything, yeah,
05:36I see every day the shortcomings of the work here in this House.
05:41Yet my task and the role of those who believe in international law
05:45is to try even harder, even in the darkest time.
05:49And we have seen, for example, with the situation in Gaza,
05:52when a majority of member states took it in their hands,
05:54it was France and Saudi Arabia organizing the so-called two-state solution conference
05:59in September.
06:01140 states followed, having a big debate.
06:04And this was a moment when also the U.S. administration,
06:08the current president, moved and said,
06:10OK, I invite the Gulf countries to D.C.
06:13And then he brought also a resolution to the Security Council.
06:16So also with regard to the ceasefire in Gaza,
06:20it's based on a resolution on the Security Council.
06:23I believe it could have been stronger implemented
06:26if the U.N. had a bigger role in it, but they decided differently.
06:30How do you see globally, internationally,
06:33the mediation role that the EU can't play?
06:36Because, again, going back to what seems to be perennial criticism,
06:40is that Europe is too slow and simply not effective enough.
06:43Is that something, when you look at it externally,
06:45that you say it's unfair, the Europeans are still playing a leading role,
06:48or are we also becoming obsolete?
06:50Having been also a European foreign minister before,
06:54I know that Europe can move fast.
06:57When the invasion of Ukraine happened by Russia,
07:00it was over a weekend when all the EU 27 came together
07:04and put up a sanctioned package before the markets opened again.
07:09So we have seen, especially also in the European Union,
07:13that under pressure they can be very quick
07:16and they can be very targeted.
07:19And it needs a strong European role,
07:21as it needs also a very strong African Union rule in those times,
07:25because both continents know also from their past
07:29and the suffering in the past
07:31that the multilateral order is their best protection.
07:35And compared to the whole world, 27 states, it's not the majority,
07:40but the EU, especially together with its member states,
07:43is one of the biggest donors of the U.N.
07:44So therefore I encourage also EU partners
07:48to engage strongly in the reform process,
07:51because they have a strong influence also
07:53how we make this institution more fit for purpose
07:56and better prepared for the future.
07:58The reason why I ask about the inner workings of the EU
08:02when it comes to external action
08:04is that there is now a criticism,
08:06and even a call for reform within the EU
08:08to skip unanimity and do things on a qualified majority basis.
08:13Is that something externally, based on your two opinions,
08:16your time as foreign minister and now the U.N.,
08:18that you can support?
08:19Qualified majority is a way to implement fast foreign policy.
08:23The debate about qualified majority voting
08:25has been there for a long time in the EU,
08:27and it was always the position of Germany to support it.
08:31Also lately in the field of foreign politics,
08:34because we know also, for example, for the enlargement process,
08:38how difficult it is to enlarge also with the Western Balkan states,
08:44for example, at the moment,
08:45if there has to be unanimity at every single step.
08:49So my point of view that it's in the self-interest of the EU
08:52to be faster and stronger,
08:55and also in the interest of the United Nations,
08:58which I'm serving right now,
09:00because a strong European voice committed to international law
09:03is also strengthening the U.N.
09:07But I would say in these times
09:09where things are very controversial,
09:11it should be also thought worse
09:14to say the EU is speaking on behalf of 27.
09:17However, individual member states are echoing this position
09:20to hear loud and clear that it's not only one voice,
09:23but the common voice of 27,
09:26because obviously sometimes in debates
09:29it really needs a majority which might be tight,
09:32because we are not guaranteed
09:33that we have the strong majorities automatically.
09:36Looking to the future of the United Nations,
09:38there is now clearly a contest
09:40to find the next Secretary General
09:42in this very complex global scenario,
09:45also knowing what has been at times,
09:48some would argue,
09:49very personal criticism of the current Secretary General.
09:51How would you define the character,
09:55the qualities, the skills
09:57that the next Secretary General should have?
09:59I would say it's the most difficult job in the world
10:01you can have in these times,
10:03because if you have to serve 193 member states,
10:06which are an open conflict to each other,
10:08at least some of them,
10:10it's extremely hard,
10:11but it's also the most important job.
10:13And the face of the next Secretary General
10:15will also say where the United Nations
10:18is standing for.
10:19For example, serving all the 8 billion people,
10:22of which half are women.
10:23In eight decades,
10:24we never had a female Secretary General.
10:26So if you're in an institution
10:28speaking about equality and human rights,
10:32it's also a question
10:33why so far there's never been a woman being elected.
10:36You would advocate,
10:37personally advocate for a woman?
10:38Not myself personally,
10:40but member states agreed
10:41that they called strongly
10:42for the nomination of women in unanimity.
10:45And if now it's not delivering on this one,
10:48obviously,
10:48it's also a question of credibility.
10:50There's also a strong call for leadership,
10:52because in these times,
10:54you need leadership,
10:55you need experience
10:55in international institutions,
10:57and you need to have the capability
10:58to build bridges
10:59in these fragmented times.
11:02Do you consider that the Board of Peace
11:04could become a challenger,
11:05a contender to the UN,
11:07or is that something
11:07that you simply do not see
11:09will be a credible rival in the future?
11:11It cannot outlast the UN.
11:13There's a good reason
11:14that at the UN,
11:15every member state,
11:16no matter how big or small,
11:18how powerful,
11:19has an equal seat at the table.
11:21And this is unique responsibility
11:24and also the unique role
11:26the UN can play.
11:27And member states made very clear,
11:29also those who joined
11:30the Board of Peace,
11:31that this is only with regard to Gaza
11:33and for any other matter
11:35on peace and security.
11:36It's for a good reason
11:37the United Nations,
11:39where you don't have to pay
11:40because you're representing
11:42the people of your country
11:44and everybody is equal.
11:46Of course,
11:46on that echo is also
11:47the concerns of the EU,
11:48which has manifested
11:49to those legal concerns
11:51and the fees.
11:52Annalena Berbock,
11:53thank you so much
11:53for joining us on Euronews.
11:55Thanks a lot.
11:55Have a good day.
11:56Have a good day.
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