00:08Annalena Baerbock, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews.
00:12The first question, and this is really a statement, perhaps not even to get political,
00:17but it really has shocked Europeans, is that statement from the President of the U.S.
00:21suggesting that a civilization could be wiped out beyond the politics.
00:26The Pope talked about a question of morality.
00:28Is that something that you can support and rally behind?
00:32Well, human rights and international law is based on our common understanding of humanity,
00:38on our moral grounds, because the United Nations was built on the massacres of the Second World War,
00:44on a genocide committed by my own country, Germany, against the Jews and the murdering worldwide.
00:51And this is why this debate about that international law would be something theoretical
00:57and we would not need it.
00:58We have it, unfortunately, heard it also from some European governments.
01:03It's, first of all, not based in our history, because it has always been the same sign of our common
01:10understanding of humanity.
01:12And you say it's being attacked, and some would argue it's no longer even being applied across the world.
01:17We've entered now into a new era, perhaps.
01:20But who is going to defend it?
01:22Is the U.N. still capacitated to play this role?
01:25The U.N. is not a single individual actor.
01:28It's the composition of 193 very diverse member states.
01:33And as we all know, we also have the Security Council,
01:36where five member states have a special responsibility.
01:40But unfortunately, in these times, they do not all take up their responsibility,
01:45but take their veto rights, which they also have, to defend even the breach of international law.
01:52And this is why the rest of the international community is needed so much to come together.
01:58And yes, we see this defense of international law.
02:01For example, the Central Asian state, they find an agreement on the disputes over borders,
02:08which they had for decades, just in the last year, combining also with cooperation on water.
02:13And this is especially the strength of the United Nations to prevent a crisis of even getting bigger.
02:19Unfortunately, as we see it around the world, it's not possible everywhere,
02:23especially if P5 members decide to do the opposite.
02:27And of course, you mentioned this veto and some countries that do not use it responsibly.
02:32That's clearly a reference to Russia.
02:33We've seen much criticism over the past year, suggesting that the U.N. is part of the problem,
02:39that the U.N. has not been able to adapt to new times,
02:42that the U.N. has not been able to resolve any major conflict over the past two years,
02:46and that it has become obsolete.
02:48Is that fair criticism?
02:49Without any doubt, the U.N. needs a deep reform.
02:52But we're in the midst of this reform.
02:54It's called U.N. 80.
02:55Since 17 years, we are trying to reform the Security Council.
02:59We just touched with the veto initiative.
03:02But unfortunately, it needs the agreement also by the members of the Security Council.
03:07And I always relate a bit to the national context.
03:11Because, for example, also in all our European countries,
03:15we have clear rules that you should not kill anybody.
03:19Unfortunately, murder still happens.
03:21And nobody would say, okay, we should just get rid of the criminal code now,
03:25because we could not prevent the murders.
03:28But police and the work in society has to do as much as to counter it.
03:34And it's the same for the United Nations.
03:35We have to do every day to be better than the day before.
03:40But we heavily depend on the member states.
03:43And if a member state starts a war of aggression,
03:46then it's not the U.N. failing.
03:49The Charter is not clear enough that this is not allowed.
03:52But it's a member state who is in well awareness of breaching the Charter,
03:57pressing this war forward.
03:59And this is why it needs the counter pressure from other member states as well.
04:03And there's a quote of one of the former Secretary General,
04:06which I think is important to remember, what the U.N. is for.
04:10It says,
04:11The U.N. was built not to bring humanity to heaven,
04:15but to prevent humanity from hell.
04:17So it's not to have the perfect place,
04:20but in dear crisis, like we are seeing right now,
04:23for example, the war in Ukraine,
04:24or the war we had in Gaza,
04:27that still the U.N. is delivering food,
04:29that they are rebuilding energy,
04:31that they are providing schools for children
04:34where the schools have been destroyed.
04:36Half of the children worldwide would not have been vaccinated without the U.N.
04:40So there's so much more work
04:41than the obviously big, big fault
04:44that we have a blockage in the Security Council.
04:47The U.S., President Trump,
04:48I say this because they have been incredibly vocal about saying
04:51the U.N. has not simply solved anything
04:53over the past two years.
04:55Ukraine, not fixed it.
04:56In the Gulf, not doing much.
04:58With Gaza, all of this criticism,
05:00do you take it as fair or do you ultimately go,
05:02well, yes, the U.N. may not be working
05:04in the way that it should be
05:05because it's not being given the tools
05:07or just simply because it's being sabotaged,
05:09not just by Russia,
05:10but also an attempt by the U.S.
05:12to make it simply not relevant anymore?
05:14If you use a veto that you cannot come to a decision
05:16in a Security Council
05:17and then you complain that you could not come to an agreement,
05:20obviously it's also the responsibility
05:22of those who are casting a veto
05:24and especially with regard to the Middle East
05:26and the situation in Gaza.
05:28It has been many times the U.S. administration casting a veto.
05:32But we have seen,
05:33and I don't want to sugarcoat anything,
05:35I see every day the shortcomings
05:38of the work here in this house.
05:41Yet my task and the role of those
05:44who believe in international law
05:45is to try even harder,
05:47even in the darkest time.
05:48And we have seen, for example,
05:50with the situation in Gaza,
05:52when a majority of member states
05:53took it in their hands,
05:54it was France and Saudi Arabia
05:56organizing the so-called
05:58two-state solution conference in September.
06:01140 states followed,
06:03having a big debate.
06:04And this was a moment
06:05when also the U.S. administration,
06:07the current president,
06:08moved and said,
06:10OK, I invite the Gulf countries to D.C.
06:13And then he brought also resolution
06:15to the Security Council.
06:16So also with regard to the ceasefire in Gaza,
06:20it's based on a resolution
06:21on the Security Council.
06:23I believe it could have been stronger implemented
06:26if the U.N. had a bigger role in it.
06:28But they decided differently.
06:30How do you see globally, internationally,
06:33the mediation role that the EU can play?
06:36Because, again, going back to
06:38what seems to be perennial criticism,
06:40is that Europe is too slow
06:41and simply not effective enough.
06:43Is that something when you look at it externally
06:45that you say it's unfair,
06:46the Europeans are still playing a leading role
06:48or are we also becoming obsolete?
06:50Having been also a European foreign minister before,
06:54I know that Europe can move fast.
06:57When the invasion of Ukraine happened by Russia,
07:00it was over a weekend
07:01when all the EU 27 came together
07:04and put up a sanctioned package
07:07before the markets opened again.
07:09So we have seen,
07:10especially also in the European Union,
07:13that under pressure,
07:14they can be very quick
07:16and they can be very targeted.
07:19And it needs a strong European role
07:21as it needs also a very strong
07:22African Union rule in those times
07:25because both continents know
07:28also from their past
07:29and the suffering in the past
07:31that the multilateral order
07:33is their best protection.
07:35and compared to the whole world,
07:3827 states,
07:39it's not the majority,
07:40but the EU,
07:41especially together with its member states,
07:43is one of the biggest donors of the UN.
07:45So therefore,
07:45I encourage also EU partners
07:48to engage strongly in the reform process
07:51because they have a strong influence
07:53also how we make this institution
07:55more fit for purpose
07:56and better prepared for the future.
07:58The reason why I ask about
08:00the inner workings of the EU
08:02when it comes to external action
08:04is that there is now a criticism
08:06and even a call for reform within the EU
08:08to skip unanimity
08:11and do things on a qualified majority basis.
08:13Is that something externally
08:14based on your two opinions,
08:16your time as foreign minister
08:17and now the UN,
08:18that you can support?
08:19Qualified majority
08:20as a way to implement fast foreign policy.
08:22The debate about qualified majority voting
08:25has been there for a long time in the EU
08:27and it was always the position of Germany
08:29to support it.
08:31Also lately in the field of foreign politics
08:34because we know also,
08:36for example,
08:36for the enlargement process,
08:38how difficult it is to enlarge
08:41also with the Western Balkan states,
08:44for example,
08:44at the moment
08:45if there has to be unanimity
08:47at every single step.
08:49So my point of view
08:50that it's in the self-interest of the EU
08:52to be faster and stronger
08:55and also in the interest
08:56of the United Nations
08:58which I'm serving right now
08:59because a strong European voice
09:02committed to international law
09:03is also strengthening the UN.
09:07But I would say
09:07in these times
09:09where things are very controversial,
09:11it should be also thought worse
09:14to say the EU is speaking
09:15on behalf of 27.
09:17However,
09:18individual member states
09:19are echoing this position
09:20to hear loud and clear
09:22that it's not only one wise
09:23but the common voice of 27
09:26because obviously sometimes
09:28in debates
09:29it really needs a majority
09:31which might be tight
09:32because we are not guaranteed
09:33that we have the strong majorities
09:35automatically.
09:36Looking to the future
09:37of the United Nations,
09:38there is now clearly a contest
09:40to find the next Secretary General
09:42in this very complex global scenario.
09:45Also knowing what has been
09:47at times some would argue
09:48very personal criticism
09:50of the current Secretary General,
09:52how would you define
09:53the character,
09:55the qualities,
09:56the skills
09:57that the next Secretary General
09:58should have?
09:59I would say
10:00it's the most difficult job
10:01in the world
10:01you can have in these times
10:03because if you have to serve
10:04193 member states
10:06which are an open conflict
10:07to each other,
10:08at least some of them,
10:10it's extremely hard
10:11but it's also
10:12the most important job.
10:13and the face
10:14of the next Secretary General
10:15will also say
10:17where the United Nations
10:18is standing for.
10:19For example,
10:20serving all the 8 billion people
10:22of which half are women.
10:23In eight decades
10:24we never had
10:25a female Secretary General
10:26so if you're in an institution
10:28speaking about equality
10:30and human rights,
10:32it's also a question
10:33why so far
10:34there's never been
10:35a woman being elected.
10:36You would advocate,
10:37personally advocate
10:37for a woman?
10:38Not myself personally
10:40but member states agreed
10:41that they called strongly
10:43for the nomination
10:43of women in unanimity
10:45and if now
10:46it's not delivering
10:47on this one,
10:48obviously,
10:48it's also a question
10:49of credibility.
10:50There's also a strong
10:51call for leadership
10:52because in these times
10:54you need leadership,
10:55you need experience
10:55in international institutions
10:57and you need
10:58to have the capability
10:58to build bridges
10:59in these fragmented times.
11:02Do you consider
11:03that the Board of Peace
11:04could become a challenger,
11:05a contender to the UN
11:07or is that something
11:07that you simply do not see
11:09will be a credible rival
11:10in the future?
11:11It cannot outlast the UN.
11:13There's a good reason
11:14that at the UN
11:15every member state,
11:16no matter how big
11:17or small,
11:18how powerful,
11:19has an equal seat
11:20at the table
11:21and this is unique
11:23responsibility
11:24and also the unique role
11:26the UN can play
11:27and member states
11:28made very clear
11:28also those who joined
11:30the Board of Peace
11:31that this is only
11:32with regard to Gaza
11:33and for any other matter
11:35on peace and security
11:36it's for a good reason
11:37the United Nations
11:38where you don't have to pay
11:40because you're representing
11:42the people of your country
11:44and everybody is equal.
11:46Of course on that
11:47echoes also the concerns
11:48of the EU
11:48which has manifested
11:49to those legal concerns
11:51and the fees.
11:52Annalena Berbock,
11:53thank you so much
11:53for joining us
11:54on Euronews.
11:55Thanks a lot,
11:55have a good day.
11:56Thank you.
Commentaires