00:08Annalena Baerbock, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews.
00:12The first question, and this is really a statement, perhaps not even to get political, but it really has shocked
00:18Europeans,
00:19is that statement from the President of the U.S. suggesting that a civilization could be wiped out beyond the
00:25politics.
00:26The Pope talked about a question of morality.
00:28Is that something that you can support and rally behind?
00:32Well, human rights and international law is based on our common understanding of humanity, on our moral grounds,
00:39because the United Nations was built on the massacres of the Second World War,
00:44on a genocide committed by my own country, Germany, against the Jews and the murdering worldwide.
00:51And this is why this debate about that international law would be something theoretical and we would not need it.
00:58We have, unfortunately, heard it also from some European governments, is, first of all, not based in our history,
01:06because it has always been the same sign of our common understanding of humanity.
01:12And you say it's being attacked and some would argue it's no longer even being applied across the world.
01:17We've entered now into a new era, perhaps.
01:20But who is going to defend it?
01:22Is the U.N. still capacitated to play this role?
01:25The U.N. is not a single individual actor.
01:28It's the composition of 193 very diverse member states.
01:33And as we all know, we also have the Security Council, where five member states have a special responsibility.
01:40But unfortunately, in these times, they do not all take up their responsibility,
01:45but take their veto rights, which they also have, to defend even the breach of international law.
01:52And this is why the rest of the international community is needed so much to come together.
01:58And yes, we see this defense of international law.
02:01For example, the Central Asian state, they find an agreement on the disputes over borders,
02:08which they had for decades just in the last year, combining also with cooperation on water.
02:13And this is especially the strength of the United Nations to prevent a crisis of even getting bigger.
02:19Unfortunately, as we see it around the world, it's not possible everywhere,
02:23especially if P5 members decide to do the opposite.
02:27And of course, you mentioned this veto and some countries that do not use it responsibly.
02:32That's clearly a reference to Russia.
02:33We've seen much criticism over the past year, suggesting that the U.N. is part of the problem,
02:39that the U.N. has not been able to adapt to new times,
02:42that the U.N. has not been able to resolve any major conflict over the past two years,
02:46and that it has become obsolete. Is that fair criticism?
02:49Without any doubt, the U.N. needs a deep reform.
02:53But we're in the midst of this reform. It's called UN80.
02:55Since 17 years, we are trying to reform the Security Council.
02:59We just touched with the veto initiative.
03:02But unfortunately, it needs the agreement also by the members of the Security Council.
03:07And I always relate a bit to the national context, because, for example, also in all our European countries,
03:15we have clear rules that you should not kill anybody.
03:19Unfortunately, murder still happens.
03:21And nobody would say, OK, we should just get rid of the criminal code now,
03:25because we could not prevent the murders.
03:28But police and the work in society has to do as much as to counter it.
03:34And it's the same for the United Nations.
03:35We have to do every day to be better than the day before.
03:40But we heavily depend on the member states.
03:43And if a member state starts a war of aggression, then it's not the U.N. failing.
03:49The charter is not clear enough that this is not allowed.
03:52But it's a member state who is in well awareness of breaching the charter, pressing this war forward.
03:59And this is why it needs the counter pressure from other member states as well.
04:03And there's a quote of one of the former secretary general, which I think is important to remember, what the
04:08U.N. is for.
04:10It says the U.N. was built not to bring humanity to heaven, but to prevent humanity from hell.
04:17So it's not to have the perfect place.
04:20But in dear crisis, like we are seeing right now, for example, the war in Ukraine or the war we
04:26had in Gaza,
04:27that still the U.N. is delivering food, that they are rebuilding energy, that they are providing schools for children
04:34where the schools have been destroyed.
04:36Half of the children worldwide would not have been vaccinated without the U.N.
04:40So there's so much more work than the obviously big, big fault that we have a blockage in the Security
04:46Council.
04:47The U.S., President Trump, I say this because they have been incredibly vocal about saying the U.N. has
04:52not simply solved anything over the past two years.
04:55Ukraine not fixed it in the Gulf, not doing much with Gaza, all of this criticism.
05:00Do you take it as fair or do you ultimately go, well, yes, the U.N. may not be working
05:04in the way that it should be
05:05because it's not being given the tools or just simply because it's being sabotaged, not just by Russia,
05:10but also an attempt by the U.S. to make it simply not relevant anymore.
05:14If you use a veto that you cannot come to a decision in a Security Council and then you complain
05:18that you could not come to an agreement,
05:20obviously it's also the responsibility of those who are casting a veto, and especially with regard to the Middle East
05:26and the situation in Gaza.
05:28It has been many times the U.S. administration casting a veto.
05:32But we have seen, and I don't want to sugarcoat anything, yeah, I see every day the shortcomings of the
05:39work here in this House.
05:41Yet my task and the role of those who believe in international law is to try even harder, even in
05:48the darkest time.
05:49And we have seen, for example, with the situation in Gaza, when a majority of member states took it in
05:54their hands,
05:54it was France and Saudi Arabia organizing the so-called two-state solution conference in September.
06:01140 states followed, having a big debate.
06:04And this was a moment when also the U.S. administration, the current president, moved and said,
06:10OK, I invite the Gulf countries to D.C.
06:13And then he brought also a resolution to the Security Council.
06:16So also with regard to the ceasefire in Gaza, it's based on a resolution on the Security Council.
06:23So I believe it could have been stronger implemented if the U.N. had a bigger role in it.
06:28But they decided differently.
06:30How do you see globally, internationally, the mediation role that the EU can't play?
06:36Because, again, going back to what seems to be perennial criticism is that Europe is too slow and simply not
06:42effective enough.
06:43Is that something when you look at it externally that you say it's unfair?
06:46The Europeans are still playing a leading role or are we also becoming obsolete?
06:50Having been also a European foreign minister before, I know that Europe can move fast.
06:57When the invasion of Ukraine happened by Russia, it was over a weekend when all the EU 27 came together
07:04and put up a sanctioned package before the markets opened again.
07:09So we have seen, especially also in the European Union, that under pressure, they can be very quick and they
07:17can be very targeted.
07:18And it needs a strong European role as it needs also a very strong African Union rule in those times
07:25because both continents know also from their past and the suffering in the past that the multilateral order is their
07:34best protection.
07:35And compared to the whole world, 27 states, it's not the majority, but the EU, especially together with its member
07:42states,
07:43is one of the biggest donor of the UN.
07:45So therefore, I encourage also EU partners to engage strongly in the reform process because they have a strong influence
07:53also
07:53how we make this institution more fit for purpose and better prepared for the future.
07:58The reason why I ask about the inner workings of the EU when it comes to external action is that
08:04there is now a criticism
08:06and even a call for reform within the EU to skip unanimity and do things on a qualified majority basis.
08:13Is that something externally based on your two opinions, your time as foreign minister and now the UN, that you
08:18can support?
08:19Qualified majority is a way to implement fast foreign policy.
08:22The debate about qualified majority voting has been there for a long time in the EU and it was always
08:28the position of Germany to support it.
08:31Also lately in the field of foreign politics, because we know also, for example, for the enlargement process,
08:38how difficult it is to enlarge also with the Western Balkan states, for example, at the moment,
08:45if there has to be unanimity at every single step.
08:49So my point of view that it's in the self-interest of the EU to be faster and stronger and
08:56also in the interest of the United Nations,
08:58which I'm serving right now, because a strong European voice committed to international law is also strengthening the UN.
09:07But I would say in these times where things are very controversial,
09:11it should be also thought worse to say the EU is speaking on behalf of 27.
09:16However, individual member states are echoing this position to hear loud and clear that it's not only one wise,
09:24but the common voice of 27, because obviously sometimes in debates, it really needs a majority,
09:31which might be tight because we are not guaranteed that we have the strong majorities automatically.
09:36Look into the future of the United Nations.
09:38There is now clearly a contest to find the next secretary general in this very complex global scenario.
09:45Also knowing what has been at times, some would argue, very personal criticism of the current secretary general.
09:52How would you define the character, the qualities, the skills that the next secretary general should have?
09:59I would say it's the most difficult job in the world you can have in these times,
10:03because if you have to serve 193 member states, which are an open conflict to each other, at least some
10:09of them,
10:10it's extremely hard, but it's also the most important job.
10:13And the face of the next secretary general will also say where the United Nations is standing for.
10:19For example, serving all the 8 billion people, of which half are women.
10:23In eight decades, we never had a female secretary general.
10:26So if you're in an institution speaking about equality and human rights,
10:32it's also a question why so far there's never been a woman being elected.
10:36You would advocate, personally advocate for a woman?
10:38Not myself personally, but member states agreed that they called strongly for the nomination of women in unanimity.
10:45And if now it's not delivering on this one, obviously, it's also a question of credibility.
10:50There's also a strong call for leadership, because in these times you need leadership.
10:54You need experience in international institution, and you need to have the capability to build bridges in these fragmented times.
11:02Do you consider that the Board of Peace could become a challenger, a contender to the UN,
11:07or is that something that you simply do not see will be a credible rival in the future?
11:11It cannot outlast the UN.
11:13There's a good reason that at the UN, every member state, no matter how big or small, how powerful,
11:19has an equal seat at the table.
11:22And this is unique responsibility and also the unique role the UN can play.
11:27And member states made very clear, also those who joined the Board of Peace,
11:31that this is only with regard to Gaza and for any other matter on peace and security.
11:36It's for a good reason the United Nations, where you don't have to pay,
11:40because you're representing the people of your country, and everybody is equal.
11:46Of course, on that echo is also the concerns of the EU,
11:48which has manifested to those legal concerns and the fees.
11:52Annalena Baerbock, thank you so much for joining us on Euronews.
11:55Thanks a lot. Have a good day.
11:58Euronews
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