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00:00Ashley James has made a name for herself as a voice for women.
00:03Today, she's here to explain the truth about misogynistic labels.
00:06I went to an all-boys school and there was so much slut-shaming
00:10and there was such a focus on a girl's behaviour.
00:14And because I had big boobs, I feel like I was automatically slut-shamed.
00:18But then I had friends that were also, like, shamed for not being sexual
00:21through words like frigid, prude.
00:24So it did feel like no matter what you did, you couldn't really win.
00:28She's a broadcaster and now a Sunday Times best-selling author.
00:33In this episode, we talk about the male gaze, medical gaslighting
00:37and the true cost of being a woman.
00:39Women spend over £20,000 in their lifetime on having a period,
00:44which is, I was going to say surprising, but actually when I, like, think about it,
00:48even since having babies, my periods have been so much heavier.
00:52Pretty much every month, I'm either having to, like, replace pants, bed sheets,
00:55and so it all adds up.
00:57Make sure you follow the show on your podcast player
00:59or hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube.
01:01I hope you enjoy today's chat with Ashley James.
01:04Ashley James, broadcaster and author of a new book
01:07all about ditching labels and finding your confidence.
01:10Welcome to Well Enough.
01:11Thank you for having me.
01:12You've had a really interesting career
01:13and I want to start by asking you a bit about it
01:15because from Made in Chelsea to being an influencer
01:18to being a social affairs correspondent and a women's advocate,
01:21you've done a lot.
01:22Can I ask you a bit about how it all began
01:23and how you came to be doing what you're doing now?
01:25I always felt like this is what I wanted to be doing,
01:28but it was finding a journey when I had no contacts within the industry.
01:34So originally when I was about 16, I grew up in Northumberland,
01:38went to school in Cumbria,
01:39and I basically started offering my services to do tea and coffee
01:43at BBC Radio Cumbria.
01:45Originally I thought I wanted to be a war correspondent
01:46and then I realised that I actually couldn't even watch adverts without crying.
01:50And so I thought maybe that's not the route.
01:53But yeah, I was on my university radio network
01:58the year we run Student Radio of the Year.
02:00So it was always something I was interested in,
02:01but I was always kind of made to feel like it wasn't a serious career path.
02:05Like no one from where I live works in,
02:08like really the entertainment industry.
02:10And at school it was kind of seen as like,
02:12well, you want to be a pop star sort of thing.
02:14It was like, no, you study hard and you do a graduate scheme.
02:18And so I think because I've always wanted to be a good girl,
02:21I kind of went down the path of, you know,
02:24going to university, trying to get a graduate job.
02:26And then it was only really moving to London
02:28and meeting so many different creatives and thinking,
02:31oh, if they could do it, maybe I could too.
02:34And Made in Chelsea came about.
02:36I always kind of thought I was using it to try and get into the industry.
02:42But it's been a really long journey.
02:43And obviously I still influence and I feel like now we call it like content creation.
02:48But I think there's a lot of like misogyny
02:53and a lot of like derogatory association with influencing.
02:57And there's obviously definitely a bad side to it.
03:00But I also think so many of the conversations that we get to have now
03:04wouldn't exist without social media,
03:06whether that's kind of like pushing past taboos,
03:10talking about like whether it's motherhood or singlehood,
03:13kind of like changing the narrative around the experiences of being a modern woman,
03:18I suppose.
03:18So I'm really proud of that because actually if social media hadn't come in in 2012,
03:23I actually probably wouldn't have had been able to financially sustain myself
03:27getting to like pursue what I do now.
03:31And then I also think social media kind of gave me the platform to start like speaking my mind
03:36and speaking up, which kind of led naturally into what I do now,
03:40because it started, I think, on the Jeremy Vine show
03:43and then Stash Pat Lunch and now this morning.
03:46And it all started from a social media post where I kind of had enough of everyone hating themselves
03:52after the Victoria's Secret show.
03:54So I start to speak up about it.
03:57Yeah.
03:57It's interesting that you mention people not appreciating the term influencer, though,
04:02because from what I've seen,
04:04many of the people that don't like influencers or have something to say about them,
04:08they do tend to be saying quite misogynist things.
04:10They do tend to dislike women making their own money and having a voice.
04:15And that's quite interesting.
04:16And when you think about it, especially for like new mums,
04:19where like as a society we still kind of push them out of the workforce
04:24or maternity pay is so poor if you're lucky enough to get maternity leave of any form,
04:29that I feel like it's allowed people to like build a business.
04:34And yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that there's definitely people still look down on it.
04:39And I feel like with any job, there's going to be people that are doing great things
04:43and people not doing great things.
04:45And actually, when you look at things like filters, for example,
04:49like do you blame the influencer or do you blame the tech companies that make the filters?
04:55So, yeah.
04:56Yeah, it's a very interesting one.
04:58Well, you've written this book about labels.
04:59And I want to ask you a bit about the kinds of labels that were maybe levied at you.
05:04I mean, we've talked a little bit about how influencer can be a dirty word,
05:08but there are lots and lots of different words used to describe women that I think can
05:12almost alter their consciousness, alter their sense of who they are.
05:16What's your experience of that been like?
05:18I think we probably have all been labelled because what I kind of realised as I was writing the book
05:25was
05:25as much as you try to be like a good girl or a good woman, a lot of these labels
05:30fight against each other.
05:32So if you think like, obviously, one of the earliest ways we label girls is by calling them bossy.
05:37But probably, I mean, I was definitely called bossy as a little girl, but I obviously wasn't being particularly analytical
05:43about it.
05:44But I do remember feeling quite crushed because often I'd feel like I was trying to help.
05:49Like I still have a really vivid memory of my mum saying, we're going to play Pass the Parcel now.
05:53And it was at my birthday party.
05:55So I was trying to gather everyone like, sit down, we're going to play Pass the Parcel.
05:58And my mum was like, stop being so bossy.
06:00And I do remember being like, I was just trying to be helpful.
06:03And then I think when I really started to notice the labels was when I was a teenager and probably
06:11when I was 14.
06:13And I went to an all boys school.
06:15So I was the first intake of girls.
06:17And there was so much slut shaming and there was such a focus on a girl's behaviour.
06:24And because I had big boobs, I feel like I was automatically slut shamed.
06:28But then I had friends that were also like shamed for not being sexual through words like frigid, prude.
06:35So it did feel like no matter what you did, you couldn't really win.
06:40And then I think, yeah, as I went through womanhood, certainly coming into the public eye,
06:46it almost felt like the rules that I was taught at school, like if you want to be taken seriously,
06:51you know, you can pick beauty or brains.
06:53If you want to be taken seriously, like boys don't like girls who wear makeup or you should leave stuff
06:59to the imagination.
06:59Like all of those rules that I that I absorbed were suddenly sort of like ripped up.
07:05And it was the complete opposite in the sort of celebrity world where it was like be sexier.
07:09If you want to be successful, be sexy, get a makeup artist, get a stylist.
07:14It was very confusing trying to learn what it was to be a good woman.
07:18And it felt like there are just labels that police us and control us.
07:23And it obviously doesn't end whether you're single that we still use words like spinster or joke about being a
07:29crazy cat lady.
07:30And then into motherhood terms like mumsy or even like just a mom.
07:34And yeah, there's such like a derogatory term aimed at you, whatever you do.
07:41Yeah, it often sort of focuses on body image as well, doesn't it?
07:45And I suppose can really influence how you feel about your own body.
07:48I find it really interesting that often the way we feel about the way we look comes from external sources.
07:53And I wonder if you can pinpoint the moment you noticed people using labels or talking about your body in
08:00that way.
08:00Yeah, so I think again when I was 14, I was like suddenly a 30 double G, which obviously I
08:07had a really big cleavage.
08:10But I was a 14 year old girl and I was very much taught shame about the way I looked.
08:16And it was very much like don't distract the boys, don't distract the teachers, leave something to the imagination.
08:23Ashley, boys don't like girls who dress provocatively.
08:26And I very much absorbed the idea that my body was shameful.
08:30And I remember like on the school discos on the weekend wearing, I had this like new look tank top.
08:36It was literally a tank top, but it had flowers on it and sequins and I loved it.
08:40And my teacher at the time was like, you cannot go like that.
08:44Ashley, maybe where you're from, they dress like that, but where we're from.
08:48Because I also was like straddling two different class systems as well.
08:52So there was always like a snobbery about the fact, you know, that I was from what you call a
08:57working class background.
08:58I won a scholarship to boarding school.
09:00And then I remember my friend was allowed to wear the same top because she was like, can I borrow
09:04it?
09:04And I was like, you won't be able to wear it.
09:06But she was allowed to wear it.
09:07So as a child, I really couldn't understand why some people were allowed to wear clothes that I wasn't allowed.
09:14So I obviously came to natural conclusions that my body was slutty because that was how the boys at school
09:21obviously always were like sexualizing me and making jokes.
09:24But it was also reinforced by teachers and other adults.
09:27It's so weird, isn't it, that you were punished for just existing in the body that you were growing into?
09:32But do you know, the craziest thing is, I feel like I'm nearly 39 years old and the kind of
09:38level of attention and shame aimed at my cleavage has never gone away.
09:44So even when I was breastfeeding as a 34 and 37 year old, there was the same commentary of attention
09:51seeker.
09:52For feeding your children.
09:53Yeah, literally.
09:53Like, and so I was like, wow, it doesn't matter whether you're a child, whether you're like, you know, 14,
10:00or whether you're a 38 year old, you are punished and sexualized.
10:04And there's a morality and policing of your body if you're a woman that men don't experience in the same
10:10way.
10:10You know, like I always joke to my partner, if it's a sunny day and he's gone for a run
10:14and he'll take his top off to walk back from the park.
10:16And I'm like, can you imagine, like I get, at the time when I was breastfeeding, there's like debates around
10:22whether it's appropriate for me to breastfeed outside, but he could just take his top off and no one questions
10:27his morality or whether he's trying to attract attention.
10:32So about power, isn't it?
10:33I've always said there's no such thing as a slut because in a similar way to you, you know, someone
10:38could use that word to describe me at 13 when I never even kissed a boy.
10:42But they could also use it, you know, to describe me now because they might want to make me feel
10:47small.
10:47And you think, how is it possible that anyone could be both at both times in their life?
10:52Well, it's, I suppose, language, language to keep you small and to keep you compliant and to keep you as
10:59like a good girl.
11:01You've talked about constantly being underestimated throughout your career as well.
11:04And I wonder how language has been used there.
11:06Did you find that lots of people used labels or terminology that made you feel in some ways that you
11:12couldn't achieve what you wanted to?
11:13I think I've never felt like I couldn't achieve because it's almost given me more drive to prove people wrong.
11:20There was definitely a period where I felt the need to prove myself.
11:23So, you know, if I was maybe on daytime TV and someone, I mean, it still happens now, but I
11:30just don't care as much.
11:31So if somebody doesn't agree with my opinion, they question my intelligence, hence the label bimbo, because that typically, especially
11:37when I had blonde hair, was the label that was always thrown at me.
11:41And I remember sometimes back in the day when Twitter was big, I'd almost like want to post my degree
11:46to like prove like I am intelligent.
11:49But now I think, isn't it funny that whether it's Piers Morgan, Nick Ferrari, like they could talk and people
11:55wouldn't agree with their opinion, but they'd never question their authority to have the opinion or they'd never question their
12:00intelligence.
12:02Whereas like I think for a woman, you're punished either way because like, you know, it's like, look at how
12:08we treat female politicians.
12:09It's the focus is always on the outfit choices they make, like whether it was Lisa Nandy in Parliament, again,
12:16similar to me as a teenage girl wearing a vest top.
12:20And I can't remember which publication it was, but they put like, whose boobs are these with an arrow.
12:25And it's so degrading, even Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May.
12:30And they were like having a meeting and it was like, forget Brexit.
12:33What about Legxit?
12:35Because they were wearing like a suit skirt.
12:36It's gruesive, isn't it?
12:37Yeah, it is.
12:39So, yeah, I feel like we're always underestimated.
12:42But I think the idea that as a woman, you can choose beauty or brains is so limiting.
12:49And I feel like now I sort of live unapologetically.
12:52And that was, I suppose, part of my desire to reclaim the word bimbo, because I was like, why can't
12:59we be both in terms of like, you know, growing up, I was given that rules of like, if you
13:04want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't wear too much makeup or don't be into fashion.
13:07And it was kind of like this idea that you can't be serious and intelligent, but also like feminine, girly
13:14things, because that was frivolous.
13:15And now I think, why can't you like the kind of like Legally Blonde model as in like, of course,
13:20we can like girly things and also be intelligent.
13:23Yeah, I watch that movie every time I start a new job.
13:26It's kind of my ritual.
13:27I always watch Legally Blonde before because I just think be everything, be both.
13:31Yeah, love that.
13:32I also wanted to ask you about something you mentioned earlier.
13:37You said that the labels kind of changed when you became a mother, but they were also still affecting in
13:42this particular way that is quite misogynist.
13:44What kind of labels have you found have been levied or thrown at you that you've noticed the most, I
13:50suppose, since becoming a mother?
13:52Because I think we tend to put mothers in categories whereby we take their power away and it's quite difficult
13:58to exist in a woman's body after you've become a mother.
14:02And all of these labels conspire to make that experience even more difficult.
14:05Yeah, it's funny because before motherhood, I was single for six years and the labels that were put towards me
14:14then were things like spinster, you don't want to get left on the shelf or, you know, if I said
14:19I didn't want to have children, it'd be like, you'll change your mind.
14:22And it was always like, you know, you'll never understand love unless you have children and it's selfish to not
14:28have children.
14:29And I realised that even though I considered myself a feminist, I was quite misogynistic against mums because I kind
14:35of saw it as, I guess, like giving in to the traditions.
14:39Whereas at the time, my version of feminism was like fighting against tradition because I felt like I was constantly
14:45having to prove myself that I was happy in my relationship status and that I didn't care if I was
14:51left on a shelf.
14:52And so then when I became a mum, it was really eye opening to almost unpick my own inner misogyny.
14:57But I was also called selfish for wanting a life outside of motherhood.
15:01So I was like, isn't it funny that we're selfish for not having kids, but then we're selfish for having
15:06kids, but not completely sacrificing our entire existence to motherhood.
15:10But then even if we do give our entire existence to motherhood, we're then almost like look down on that
15:16we've kind of given up or we've got nothing else to talk about.
15:20And there's that pressure, even in your relationship, that like you shouldn't put your children before your partner.
15:26So I feel like you're just constantly living this impossible, like kind of like, yeah, just living.
15:33You realise how impossible all the expectations are placed upon you.
15:36And I certainly felt like I was still the same person that I was before I was a mum, but
15:42I was almost expected to completely alter everything about me.
15:47Like there was a period after I had kids where I'd only get asked to talk about topics on TV
15:52that were related to motherhood.
15:54And I was like, I can still talk about other things.
15:56And I felt like I was really fighting to be seen as more than just a mum.
16:00But even the idea that just a mum is somehow like not enough or, you know, you're called mumsy or
16:07like you've let yourself go.
16:10But then if you do make an effort, you're almost like considered like selfish or self-centred or you're not
16:16sacrificing enough.
16:17So I feel like it's all just an impossible set of expectations that you can't win.
16:23The standard for what makes a good mother is, I suppose, different for everybody, isn't it?
16:28And I suppose the idea that even like your sense of fashion is expected to change and that you're meant
16:33to almost accept mumsy clothing.
16:36But then what I find so ironic is that you become a mother through sex, but then you're almost expected
16:44to no longer be sexy or no longer allowed to own your sexuality.
16:48So, yeah, it's something that we don't place on men.
16:51But through a very male gaze, I suppose, you've got this whole category of pornography that is very focused on
16:57mothers.
16:58Like the term MILF.
16:59Yeah, exactly.
17:00And actually, you think that's a very narrow, very bizarre, very twisted view of a woman's sexuality, I think.
17:09But you've also been really honest about motherhood in several interviews.
17:13And I want to touch on something that you mentioned, which was that in some ways you regretted motherhood in
17:19the early days.
17:20And it's so taboo to say that.
17:22I wonder if you could explain what you meant by that.
17:25I mean, it's so taboo to say it, but it also felt very taboo to feel it.
17:29Because I suppose motherhood is always painted as this sort of like the happy ever after or the thing that
17:36makes you complete.
17:37And I remember when I was pregnant thinking, well, I guess I get to know what all the fuss is
17:42about.
17:43Because everyone did spend the last six years saying to me, you'll never know love like it and you'll never
17:48feel complete.
17:49And so when I when I had my son, I loved him, obviously, but it felt so shit like it
17:59was like, is this meant to fulfill me?
18:02Because it was very like monotonous.
18:04And I felt like I had gone from at the time I was mainly DJing and I was like traveling
18:09around the world.
18:10Suddenly it was also lockdown, which probably amplified the feeling of loneliness.
18:14But I was like in the house doing the same thing every day, not really sleeping and trying to entertain
18:19something that gave nothing back.
18:21And I remember there was a point where I was doing finger puppets being like, how is this my life?
18:26Like this time last year, I was probably like DJing at a major festival.
18:30And now I'm singing The Lion King with like some Lion King finger puppets.
18:36And like, how is this meant to be fulfilling?
18:38Which isn't to take away from people who do find it fulfilling, but it just wasn't for me.
18:43But it's like I also felt like if I was a dad and I was suddenly expected to like put
18:49my career on pause and do that every day, we maybe would have like more compassion for it.
18:54But also a lot of the I think the trauma and upset that I had was because I'd had a
19:01very traumatic birth.
19:03And I feel like because so many people give birth, we almost expect people to like just get on with
19:09it and be grateful and shut up.
19:11But actually, we've got such poor postnatal care, even when you look overseas to like my sister gave birth in
19:18Holland and they have essentially a midwife that comes for the first two weeks of your life, of the baby's
19:23life to help you with anything from like naps to looking after the baby to going to get milk to
19:29emptying the bins to like anything you need for support.
19:32Whereas we're kind of just left and we don't have pelvic health like physio unless we really, really demand it.
19:38The six week check is usually not even a physical check.
19:41So I was like living in fear of my body.
19:44And at the time, I didn't know because there wasn't a physical check that I had prolapse and piles and
19:50I felt like no one cared.
19:51And the only conversation was around whether I wanted to bounce back or not.
19:55And it felt like a very superficial way to look at a postpartum body that actually needed help and reconstructive
20:06surgery.
20:06So what was missed?
20:08I mean, that sounds like it was an awful experience in the early days.
20:11I mean, I think the birth was quite horrific.
20:13And again, I think this is something that we look down on with births that we sort of dismiss it
20:18as like a negative birth story as if it's like a mindset problem as opposed to maybe like maternity care
20:26failing.
20:27And I think, you know, you hear so many negative birth stories, but you're always warned like you don't want
20:32to scare pregnant people or like nobody wants to hear the negative birth stories or, oh, so nice to hear
20:37a positive story.
20:38You only ever hear negative ones and you're almost shamed for your experience.
20:42And again, because something's taboo, it means that less people who speak up, like the less chance there is for
20:49meaningful change to happen.
20:50So, yeah, I think that's why I try to be really open about not just the fact that it's not
20:57a negative birth, it's a traumatic birth, but also that there's so much more to postpartum recovery than whether or
21:03not you bounce back.
21:04Of course, yeah. And I mean, you're totally right.
21:07If we were putting more pressure on policymakers and on those in charge of funding to actually fund maternal care
21:14and make sure that we have better maternal care.
21:16I mean, I'm sure a situation like yours could have been avoided or at least spotted earlier, right?
21:21And I think this is the problem with so much of like women's health and women's health care that we
21:26make it feel like an individual problem instead of like systemic problem, whether that's the lack of research or the
21:33lack of funding or the fact that, you know, whether it's maternity care or things like endometriosis, where people spend
21:41like years and years trying to get a diagnosis.
21:44Was this with your with your first child or your second child?
21:47Yeah, with my first birth and with my second, I actually opted for an elective C-section.
21:52I was also told that I wouldn't be able to physically have another vaginal birth anyway.
21:58But what's interesting is having an elective C-section allowed me to like reclaim my birthing story.
22:06And I had like a really positive experience. But there's so much shame in C-sections.
22:11And I don't know why. I mean, this is wild, isn't it?
22:14Like the fact that it's called like taking the easy option or too posh to push.
22:19It's like if a man ever said he was having open abdominal surgery, you'd never be like, oh, so you're
22:23taking the easy way out.
22:25But for some reason, we we've accepted so much medical advancement.
22:29But when it comes to people giving birth, we expect them to do it the same way that we did
22:34it in the Stone Ages.
22:35And you almost, you know, if you say like you don't want medication, that's like a badge of honor.
22:40Whereas actually, we don't have to suffer like, you know, we we shouldn't have to suffer.
22:44And also our pain should be listened to. And I think we're still not there, at least in my experience.
22:50But yeah, having my second birth as an elective C-section was such a game changer.
22:56And that's something that's only been allowed to happen since the Ockendon report.
23:00So actually, when I had my son, even if I'd have wanted to have a C-section, I wouldn't necessarily
23:05have been granted one.
23:06But I think things have thankfully moved forward a bit more now.
23:10Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it should be a personal choice.
23:13Yeah.
23:13The autonomy to make, right, about your own body.
23:15Yeah.
23:17Thank you for sharing that.
23:18It's, you know, we were talking about marathons before we started chatting.
23:22And I was talking about how, what a feat, you know, it's such a physical experience.
23:26And, you know, you talk about the pain of doing a marathon.
23:29But then when you talk about something like birth trauma, we see stories about marathons all over the front page.
23:34We don't see birth trauma all over the front page.
23:36But you know what's so funny? Because I'd run two marathons, I was almost looking forward to my first birth.
23:43Because I was like, I know that I can push myself through pain and I can carry on because I've
23:48run a marathon.
23:48And I was almost excited to, like, uncover the mystery of what happens in birth.
23:53Because you only ever hear, like, mother and baby doing well.
23:56And it's like, how could she be doing well?
23:58How could she possibly be doing well after birth?
24:01So I was like, oh, I'm kind of excited to see what happens.
24:04But, yeah, it turns out that it's not just a mindset thing of carrying on.
24:09Sometimes things happen that are outside of your control and you're not able to prep.
24:13And you need to feel like you're listened to and supported in that process.
24:19Definitely.
24:19I think the mindset argument bothers me when people talk about mental health issues as well.
24:25We, I mean, there's such a trend for all of this kind of mindfulness, mind over matter.
24:29It's huge in wellness.
24:31But a lot of people saying you can just think your way out of depression.
24:35You can say some affirmations and you can move beyond anxiety.
24:38You know, it actually takes a lot more than that.
24:40And you've spoken quite candidly about postnatal depression as well.
24:43And I think it's really important that we discuss that in really realistic terms, too.
24:49Because you cannot mindset your way out of something like that as easily as some people suggest.
24:54And also, I feel like if you, like, we treat physical health like, you know, if you had a bad
25:01leg, you'd be given crutches.
25:02Whereas for some reason, when it comes to mental health, like you said, it's seen as something of, like, mindset
25:08or willpower.
25:09But actually, we're talking about, like, hormones, which is, can be, like, chemical imbalance.
25:13So if you can find something to, like, help your way through those dark times, like, there's no shame in
25:19that.
25:19Yeah, absolutely.
25:20And I think there's never one magic bullet, is there?
25:23It's all about these kind of small habits, having support, you know, as you say, maternal health care.
25:29And this is the other thing.
25:30I do feel like we set parents, but especially mums, up to fail.
25:35Because we don't have, like, systems that make it easy for us to thrive.
25:39Because we don't have the village.
25:41And, you know, maternity care is still so poor.
25:44Like, lots of people have to go back to work before they feel ready to.
25:48And then even when they go back to work, they might not have the flexible working or be able to
25:53work from home.
25:54And they're trying to juggle, like, childcare hours and school hours.
25:57Like, the fact we still have the same school system that we did when most women were at home.
26:01It's like, how are we meant to find six weeks holiday in the summer when we're working?
26:06So, you know, I do think, given that we tell women that motherhood is, like, the ultimate goal,
26:13we're really not making it easy as a society and as systems to support people to be parents,
26:20which is why we're seeing a declining birth rate.
26:24Because, like, if you don't make motherhood enjoyable and easy, people are going to not do it.
26:33Yeah, it's as simple as that, isn't it?
26:34And I suppose we've seen a lot of men with microphones talking about the falling birth rate
26:38as a failure of women rather than a failing of a broader system that doesn't support women.
26:43Yeah, exactly.
26:44And even the fact, you know, 74,000 women a year are having to leave work,
26:48not necessarily because they want to.
26:50Like, ultimately, it should be choice.
26:52You know, I know, like, Scandi countries like Norway,
26:55they're so good at making sure that not only are there equal parental leave,
26:59so it's not seen as, like, a woman's issue.
27:02Therefore, there's less maternity discrimination.
27:04But it's also really affordable to send your children to childcare.
27:09But if you choose to not send your children to childcare,
27:12you get the money into your bank account that they would have given you for childcare.
27:16But we don't have that here.
27:17We have the world's most expensive childcare.
27:19I spend more on childcare than I do on my mortgage by, like, a country mile.
27:24And that's not viable.
27:26Like, it shouldn't be a privilege to put your children into childcare so that you get to work.
27:30There should be a system that makes it easy for you to work.
27:34Yeah, for sure.
27:35You talked about bouncing back as well and this kind of pressure to be physically identical to how you were
27:40before you had kids.
27:41And I wonder why we still wrestle with that.
27:44Because, you know, there's so many awful comments that get thrown around online.
27:48And, you know, even in media now, despite the fact that women's media has changed a lot.
27:51Why do you think that is?
27:53I think so much of it boils down to the kind of, like, grim part of the patriarchy that we
28:01still see purity and virginity as something admirable in women.
28:09And I think so many of us grow up, even, like, I talk about it in my book Bimbo,
28:14but the idea of, like, vaginal tightness as being something that we, like, aspire to have because that's what men
28:20like.
28:21And so there's this idea that having children, like, ruins your body.
28:25And I hate, I hate so much that the focus is still on bouncing back and ruining your body.
28:34And, like, the term I loathe the most is baby weight.
28:37It's like your body has just done this miraculous thing.
28:40And we should be almost, like, looking to birthing bodies, like, you know, almost like Greek statues.
28:47You know, they're this.
28:48It's like a miracle in life form, really, that we can grow an extra organ and bring a new life
28:57into the world.
28:57But it's, like, the moment the baby's there, and we see it with, like, the pro-life movement.
29:02They care about the baby until it's out of you, and then they don't offer support.
29:06But also, like, your body becomes seen as, like, something ruined, like it's served its job.
29:12It's served its purpose.
29:13So it doesn't matter for you to be attractive to men anymore because you've already kind of been chosen and
29:19ruined.
29:19And it's so grim.
29:21I hate it so much.
29:22But I think it also does such a disservice to women because, you know, we talk a lot about body
29:27confidence.
29:28And it's very hard to feel confident in your body when you feel like your body doesn't work.
29:33And in my case, that was having prolapse, which I didn't even know what it was.
29:37I didn't even know it was possible to be healthy in your prime and to experience prolapse.
29:43There was no support.
29:44Again, very taboo.
29:46And experiencing things like incontinence and faecal incontinence, which was a direct result of not being stitched up correctly.
29:53But it's like you're just left.
29:55Nobody cares about you once the baby's out.
29:58There's no, you have to really advocate for yourself or you have to be lucky enough to be able to
30:02afford private health care to skip really long wait times.
30:08And it's, yeah, it's really sad that this idea of baby weight is like your body's, like,
30:14you should be allowed time and space to heal and to recover.
30:19And instead, we're potentially making it more dangerous for people by encouraging them.
30:24For example, the only reason I found out about my prolapse was because I started running again after six weeks,
30:30because that's kind of when you're told six weeks is like the invisible timeline.
30:35And I was lucky enough to have a private physio, a pelvic health physio message me being like, oh, before
30:42you go running, can you come and see me?
30:43Because I'd seen her for my pelvic girdle pain.
30:45And she diagnosed me with prolapse.
30:48And she said if I hadn't have come in and she hadn't have spotted it, running would have actually made
30:52it so much worse because of, like, the impact on concrete.
30:55And we're just failing women because we're not making sure that they're recovering properly,
31:00which also means that imagine for, like, when we're older and having to deal with prolapses and everything when we're
31:06older.
31:06And then you have, like, the, I think it was called, like, the mesh scandal.
31:13Pelvic mesh, yeah.
31:14Pelvic mesh scandal, where they were basically, like, stapling mesh onto women's bladders.
31:20And when they were complaining of pain, that pain was being, like, completely dismissed.
31:25And, yeah, I feel like we're doing a real disservice to women.
31:27And this idea of needing to shrink instead of, like, rebuilding and being strong is just really sad.
31:34Yeah, I agree with you.
31:35I mean, it so should be a time for healing and not for shrinking.
31:39It's a really good way of putting it.
31:41I want to talk about trolls as well because I feel like you handle trolls very well,
31:45but you do tend to attract them for saying the things that you say, which, you know, are so needed.
31:51How do you safeguard your own mental health when you're dealing with people coming at you online?
31:55Do you know what?
31:56It's interesting because you say, like, I attract them because of what I say, but then I feel like even
32:00people...
32:00Well, like a month to a flame.
32:02Yeah, but also people who don't say anything also experience trolling.
32:05It might be because of the way you look or what you say or what you don't say.
32:09And I think that's part of it, that you will get trolled, like, in the same way that you can't
32:15change yourself in the real world if people don't like you.
32:18Like, ultimately, you can try to change yourself, but people will still not like you.
32:23So I think it's just trying to know that you understand yourself and you don't need to over-explain.
32:29But also, I think it's also fine to, like, acknowledge if you do get things wrong, but I don't think
32:34you should be forced into, like, altering what you say based on trolls.
32:40Because trolls will exist.
32:42Like, I'm not responsible for trolls.
32:45Trolls are responsible for trolls.
32:46I do miss the days of trolls just being the great 90s toys.
32:53It's a really odd scenario that we find ourselves in, isn't it?
32:56That if you dare to stick your head above the parapet and say something that you think is important because,
33:01you know, women are still underfunded, they're not listened to, you know, they're experiencing.
33:07As you've discussed and, you know, kindly shared, all of these issues with health, that if you say something, someone
33:15is going to pop up and say, oh, well, I think you're wrong or I've got something to say about
33:18your body.
33:19It's kind of terrible that, you know, the lack of justice on social media because of standards.
33:25And also the misogyny and the fact that if you're a feminist and obviously it's not just health that's unequal,
33:31it's like the pay gap, the pension gap, male violence against women and girls.
33:36Like it is everywhere. And it's like it shouldn't actually be radical to be a feminist because actually if you're
33:42not a feminist, like which bit of our rights do you not want to be equal?
33:46But you're seen as sort of like this.
33:49I always say, like, I don't think I ever say anything particularly controversial because all I want is equality and
33:54whether that's equality with trans rights, you know, like racial, like sexuality.
34:02Like I just want an equal and understanding world because any of us could either have children or know friends
34:10with children and we don't know who they're going to be.
34:11And don't we want a world that gives everybody fair opportunity and the right to be who they want to
34:17be and love who they want to love?
34:19So actually, if people don't like those opinions, I sort of see it as not failure on my side, but
34:25like I'm not explaining it clearly enough because I think most people are good people.
34:30But I think what's frustrating is, you know, when I talk about a lot of like feminist topics, you're almost
34:37like brushed aside as like a feminist or a man hater.
34:40But we've seen, obviously, like Louis Theroux has just done an amazing documentary about the manosphere and suddenly people are
34:46like, oh, that's terrible.
34:47And it's like, yeah, we've all been saying this.
34:50We've been trying to warn you about this.
34:52So, yeah, I just feel like I stand by what I say and I try to have integrity.
34:58And so if people don't like it, it's just noise.
35:02But if I ever I feel like we're all learning and we're all like figuring things out as we go
35:08along and I'm I'd always be very happy for my opinions to like shift if it if I've misunderstood like
35:18a group of people, for example.
35:20No, I think I think what you say is spot on.
35:22And I always think about that Toni Morrison quote that's probably poorly paraphrasing, but if it takes someone on their
35:30knees to make you feel tall, we've got a problem.
35:33And I think that kind of encapsulates the whole idea of trolls.
35:36You know, sometimes it's not even what you're saying.
35:38It's just that they want to dehumanize you.
35:40But I do think you cope with it very well.
35:43I always think as well, like being a troll is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies because
35:50you're really only hurting yourself.
35:52Because I feel like it's so hard to be happy, like for all of us, like life is really hard.
35:58And it's like, imagine putting your energy into like hating on other people, especially when you could just like unfollow
36:03them or not pay attention to them.
36:06And I always say to my boyfriend, imagine being that bitter and having such a brittle spirit.
36:09How embarrassing.
36:10Yeah.
36:12So, yeah, I feel you on that.
36:14But you actually you mentioned something that I would really like to ask you about because I mentioned health and
36:20you said, but it's everything.
36:21You know, so many different areas of inequality across the spectrum when it comes to the experience of being a
36:27woman.
36:28And I wanted to ask you about this new campaign that you've partnered with Clue on.
36:33So this is all about drawing attention to how much we spend in a lifetime as women and how staggering
36:40it is.
36:41And this kind of invisible cost that people don't realize is there.
36:44Could you tell me a bit more about it?
36:45The research shows that women spend over £20,000 in their lifetime on having a period, which is, I was
36:54going to say surprising.
36:55But actually, when I think about it, even since having babies, my periods have been so much heavier.
37:01And pretty much every month I'm either having to, like, replace pants, bed sheets.
37:06And so it all adds up.
37:08And when I think that people who don't bleed don't have to think about that and don't have to be
37:13constantly replacing items, it does all add up.
37:16So when we talk about, you know, equal pay and equality, we've got all these, like, extra invisible expenses.
37:28And so I just really wanted to throw support behind the campaign.
37:32And also knowing that we're in a cost of living crisis and that a third of people in England can't
37:37afford basic hygiene products is really sad.
37:42Because if you think of, like, what so many of us experience with having our periods anyway, whether that's, like,
37:47the cramps, having to buy pain relief, the fluctuation of our hormones.
37:53And then on top of that, you're having to, like, worry about the finances just to have basic dignity.
37:58It's almost like a non-break, like, we take for granted the fact that loo paper is free in public
38:03restrooms, but not period products.
38:07Yeah. I mean, when you put it like that, it is actually wild, the invisible cost.
38:11And then also the fact that so many of these products are taxed as luxury goods.
38:15You know, we thought we did away with the tampon tax.
38:18But actually, because of inflation, we've still got huge costs for these kinds of products.
38:23The pink tax is very real, isn't it?
38:25And it's mad that we're almost, like, punished for old biology, especially when you think that no one would even
38:30be here without periods.
38:32Right. We kind of need them, yeah.
38:35But it's a fantastic campaign.
38:37And I think it really highlights the fact that, you know, if this is affecting this many people, again, this
38:44is something that really should be headline news.
38:46And yet it's one of these things that because it's women's health, it's kind of swept under the rug.
38:50It's not taken as seriously as it should be.
38:52So I think it's really important that, you know, someone is calling time and saying this is something that we
38:58should all be far more aware of.
38:59Yeah, definitely.
39:00And hopefully lots of people will get behind the petition because I think anyone that knows a woman or knows
39:06someone who believes knows, like, what it entails.
39:09And, yeah, like I said, like the cost of replacing clothes and bedsheets and pain relief and all of the
39:17other things that we experience, it's just not really good enough that we're punished for bleeding.
39:21For sure.
39:22And then I guess there's the, you know, the hidden cost if you don't have paid sick leave.
39:27You know, if you're in a gig economy job and you have to take a day off because of menstrual
39:31cramps, then that's money gone.
39:32I mean, I've got to be honest, I didn't want to come in today because my period is trying to
39:35kill me.
39:36So again, one of my friends is doing the marathon and we were talking about that she thinks she was
39:41going to be due on on the marathon.
39:43So then she was looking at getting like paying, obviously, for those like period delay pills, which I took when
39:49I went trekking in the Sahara with Copperfield.
39:52And it's like there's just these constant things that we have to constantly think about.
39:56And obviously, I'm like, I feel like I'm lucky that I don't have the financial worry on top of it.
40:03Yeah, this this invisible mental load is huge, isn't it?
40:07Others don't see hidden labor, physical pain, extra costs.
40:11And then there's medical gaslighting.
40:12You know, the idea that a woman will say, I am really, really in pain, but I'm just going to
40:18turn up today and do it anyway.
40:19And people just say, oh, you know, that's just being a woman.
40:22And it's it's really interesting, isn't it, that we we still exist in this paradigm where that's just we have
40:28to accept it.
40:29And I think we dismiss our own pain.
40:31I remember I had an iron transfusion probably like last year.
40:38And the difference that it made to me because I was getting so fatigued the week before my period and
40:44during my period and having an iron transfusion completely changed my life.
40:48And what's so funny is I dismiss my own pain and my own like tiredness is like, well, I'm a
40:53mom.
40:53Of course, I'm tired.
40:55And the fact that I dismiss my own pain and then it's like if we ever then finally do go
41:00to the doctors, whether it's, you know, with period cramps, I've really had like colon cramps now and I'm on
41:08my period.
41:08And you have to advocate for yourself.
41:11So getting past your own dismissal of pain and then being dismissed in the medical field of pain and then
41:17having to spend like I think it's like a decade if you have endometriosis that it takes from when you
41:22first go to the doctor to when you get a diagnosis.
41:26It's really bad, but we all feel like it's on us and it's our own individual.
41:30I remember feeling lazy and it's like, no, I was iron deficient.
41:35That's a huge one, though, isn't it?
41:36So many women telling themselves, oh, I should be doing more.
41:39I should be doing more.
41:40And they're writhing around in pain on the floor.
41:42And the thing is, I'm really confident.
41:43And if I find it hard to advocate for myself, imagine for like people who don't feel confident or if
41:49English isn't their first language.
41:50I feel like we shouldn't have a health care system where you have to like, you should just be listened
41:56to.
41:57Couldn't agree more.
41:58You've offered some good advice there in terms of advocating for yourself.
42:02I would love to ask you your advice.
42:05If someone listening recognises themselves in any of what we've spoken about, whether that is not feeling heard, not being
42:11able to advocate for themselves or just feeling like labels or other people's words are confining them, what would your
42:18advice be to them?
42:19I think to always trust your own voice and use your own voice.
42:25And I think as women, we so often feel like we're too much or not enough.
42:29And that comes from years of conditioning and labels being called bossy, slut, frumpy, mumsy, all of these labels.
42:38And ultimately, people will talk or not like you, whether you are yourself or not.
42:44And knowing that there's a gender pain gap, knowing that we don't take so many issues seriously, you've got to
42:52advocate for yourself.
42:54And I mean that even in like from friendships to careers to relationships.
42:58I think there's loads of research that shows women are less likely to ask for pay rises.
43:04So like go out there, get your pay rise and just like believe in yourself because you've got to.
43:10Yeah, I love that advice.
43:11And I think you're right.
43:13This can kind of start when you're quite young.
43:16You know, if you're playing pass the parcel and someone says you're being bossy, that's the moment it can all
43:21start creeping in.
43:22Do you know what?
43:22Well, I've got a boy and a girl and I've noticed the language that we use even to describe newborn
43:27babies is so gendered.
43:29And so, for example, when my son was born, everyone was like, he's going to be a heartbreaker.
43:33And I was like, I hope not.
43:35Hopefully he's going to be very, very respectful.
43:38Yeah.
43:38But then with my daughter, it's like we're going to have to lock her up.
43:40So before she's even said her first words, we're already talking about punishing her for male behaviour.
43:48And so it's that idea that she wouldn't have the same freedom as my boy just by default of her
43:54being a girl or like she's not going to be allowed to date till she's 30.
43:57And it's like, yes, she will, because we're not going to punish girls for boys' behaviour.
44:03Yeah, or simply just being girls and girls' bodies.
44:05What advice would you give to parents?
44:08I mean, what should they be telling their kids at this stage?
44:11I mean, I would always say that I'm no parenting expert, but what I try to do is try to
44:18be careful of language that I use around my children.
44:22So I really want both my son and daughter to believe that they can be anything that they want to
44:27be.
44:28That, you know, and that goes for Alfie, that if he wants to wear dresses or if he loves pink
44:33and if he wants to be soft,
44:34like we need more emotionally rounded boys.
44:39And I'm also really open about things like periods.
44:43I don't use euphemisms for genitals.
44:46Like it's there's a chapter in my book called Vulvas for the Win,
44:50because I don't want them to feel shame about their body parts.
44:53And I speak openly in age appropriate ways.
44:56If I'm on my period, I don't try and hide it.
44:57I keep period products out because I want it to feel really normal for them.
45:01And also, I don't use labels about other people.
45:05And I don't talk about bodies, other people's bodies, about like around other people.
45:11And I don't hate on myself in front of my kids because, you know, if I'm constantly putting myself down,
45:16they're going to be absorbing that.
45:17Or if they're seeing me not eating food, for example.
45:22Like, so I try to have like a really healthy household in terms of like body image, food and the
45:28way we talk about other people.
45:29I think that's such good advice.
45:31I mean, they absorb everything, don't they, kids?
45:34And you don't even realise it.
45:35And also, when we think about the world that we're setting girls or letting girls out into,
45:40don't we want them to be bossy?
45:42Like, don't we want them to like really believe in themselves?
45:45And I, it actually was like the inspiration behind my own book.
45:49But when I look at Ada, she loves her reflection.
45:54She's so loud.
45:55She's so confident.
45:56And I thought, wow, that must have been me.
45:58And isn't it funny that by the time we reach our like teens, 20s, we do feel the need to
46:04shrink.
46:05And then we kind of go on this journey where we spend the rest of our lives trying to get
46:09back to who we were
46:10when we were that two-year-old girl.
46:14That's it though, isn't it?
46:15I feel that, that I've spent a long time trying to get back to my authentic self.
46:18And my most authentic self is probably about Emily, age six, I would say.
46:23It's quite interesting.
46:24I'd love to ask you for one more piece of advice, if I may.
46:27I always ask my guests what their one tip feeling well enough would be.
46:31So not feeling perfect, but feeling well enough.
46:35My one tip for feeling well enough would be to listen to yourself.
46:41For me, well enough might be that I need to go out with my girlfriends.
46:45It might be that I need an early night.
46:47It might be that I need a late night.
46:49I think there's no one set rule because, you know, what makes us happy and well one week
46:55might be different next week.
46:56So it's just like listening to that inner voice and following that.
47:00I love that.
47:00Intuition is a really strong sense and I think we forget that.
47:03Ashley James, thanks so much for joining me for Well Enough.
47:06If you enjoyed this chat today with Ashley James, I know you'll enjoy this episode with
47:11Cherry Healey, all about perimenopause, medical gaslighting and the little-known symptoms to
47:16look out for.
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