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00:01On this edition of The Fifth Estate, we're on St. Mary's Bay in Nova Scotia, the richest part of Canada's
00:10billion-dollar lobster industry, where there's a war on the water.
00:14Go home.
00:15You go home, lady.
00:18Intimidation and frequent threats of violence.
00:21Places burning down, windows getting smashed in, houses being shot up, people getting shot at.
00:26You hear stories that's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
00:30The fight over who gets to fish here has left communities bitter and divided.
00:35We're not pirates. We're not the villains.
00:37Does racism play a role here, do you think?
00:39Uh, no.
00:42A dispute with roots older than Canada itself.
00:45Love's not going anywhere. It's been around for a very long time.
00:49We look at who is cashing in on the chaos.
00:52I'm sick of it. There's nothing to do with conservation. It's just, it's total greed.
00:56We're not going anywhere. It's even best.
00:58I'm Steven D'Souza. This is The Fifth Estate.
01:12Good for you.
01:16Oh no!
01:35Oh, there's some biggins in there boys, some biggins, save a couple of those.
01:42Save a couple of these.
01:44Yeah, I want to take a picture of us, all three of us holding the jumbos.
01:47Just take my picture with this big lobster, the kids will get a kick out of it at least.
01:52And remember, you've got to hold it up like this.
01:57Anybody else want a cool picture of the lobster?
02:00Out on the water, it's easy for Matt Cope to lose himself in the moment.
02:05To cast aside briefly the battle taking place here.
02:09It's just, when you're out here, the rest of the world almost don't exist for a minute.
02:18How many traps do you put out usually?
02:20Like if I'm doing modder?
02:22Yeah.
02:23Like when I was doing it here and I got charged, I was fishing a half a shot of gear.
02:27So I was fishing 150 traps and I had two other band members with me.
02:31So we were fishing about 50 traps a piece.
02:35Right.
02:37And during the commercial season, how many?
02:38We fished 300, which is a full shot.
02:41Yeah.
02:44But this is the boat you were in when all the trouble went down.
02:46Yeah.
02:47Initially, yeah.
02:51Navigating the politics of these waters is far from easy.
02:54Every time the 39-year-old father of six sets out, he's putting himself at risk of threats, violence and
03:01arrest for something he believes he has every right to do.
03:06What do you want them to understand about the dispute, like what's happening here?
03:09I want them to understand that we're not poachers, we're not pirates.
03:13I was selling my catch to make money for my family.
03:15The waters in Atlantic Canada have long been harvested for lobster.
03:19The region is parceled into sections, each with its own strict rules for when lobster boats can go out.
03:25These are known as commercial seasons.
03:28Here in this part of Nova Scotia, St. Mary's Bay is fished commercially from November to May.
03:33One in five lobsters fished in Canada come from here.
03:37You weren't hiding anything, right?
03:38No, absolutely.
03:40I had bright buoys.
03:42I had my phone number, my name on them.
03:46I actually wanted them to call me so I could explain to them what I was doing.
03:52Cope is licensed to fish during this area's commercial season, but he also fishes much smaller amounts out of season.
03:59A controversial practice that more than once has caught the eye of officers with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO.
04:07I have no problem fishing in season.
04:09I mean, that's what they're always going on about.
04:11Oh, if you just fish in season, if you just fish in season.
04:13And then we fish in season and it's still a big deal.
04:16And basically they said they were going to take my boat.
04:18Who's that, DFO?
04:19DFO, yeah.
04:26Cope is Mi'kmaq.
04:27They're the predominant First Nations group in Nova Scotia.
04:32He traces his right to fish here to treaties signed with the British Crown in the 1700s.
04:38So there's a hierarchy here in Nova Scotia because of these treaties that there's a hierarchy.
04:43It goes commercial-based fisheries, which is a privilege-based fisheries, and then there's rights-based fisheries, which is higher.
04:52In the heart of St. Mary's Bay, at the wharf in Sonyeville, the dispute over the hierarchy, as Cope describes
04:58it, unfolded in 2020.
05:01Mi'kmaq launched a rights-based fishery outside the commercial season, and it caught international attention.
05:07We're right on schedule.
05:09We're going to have our elder Becky Gillian give us an opening prayer.
05:14Journalist Maureen Gugu covered the event.
05:17Five years ago, during the middle of the COVID pandemic, the Smeagnegadi First Nation decided to launch its own moderate
05:25livelihood fishery.
05:30We covered the speeches, we got shots of them giving out lobster tags to fishermen, and then they were going
05:37on the boats.
05:40As soon as they went on the boats, they were met with, like, a flotilla of non-indigenous fishers who
05:46were ready to take those traps out of the water, and there was clashes.
05:51Not welcome here.
05:52No, you're welcome here.
05:53You just said we're not welcome.
05:54You said to go home.
05:55Don't spend our money instead of taking our money.
05:57Go home.
05:58You go home, lady.
06:00And that went on for about a good two-month period in that area, and it got very violent.
06:08It got very scary.
06:10They said they won't let me leave unless they have my lobsters.
06:14There was fishermen, you know, who were trapped inside of a fishing plant at one point, and with non-indigenous
06:22fishermen threatening to burn them out.
06:28That wharf is now fenced off.
06:30Entry is controlled.
06:34But it doesn't keep away the tension that's still sharply felt here by the First Nations fishers on the other
06:40side, even in this postcard setting.
06:56The Clare region of Southern Nova Scotia takes pride in its Acadian roots and its connection to the sea.
07:03Here, the lobster business touches everyone in some way and is the lifeblood of these communities.
07:08Outside of the Halifax area, once you start coming west, probably every coastal community, its main economic driver is the
07:16lobster fishery.
07:17The lobster fishery is the big enchilada.
07:19If it wasn't for that, I'm not sure how many of these smaller communities, coastal communities, actually could survive.
07:25My father owned a small fish plant.
07:27Anyway, I ended up, like a lot of the smaller communities around here, most everybody ended up going fishing.
07:33Bernie Berry sets the table for what the commercial fishers see as the key issue.
07:37At the end of the day, it's the stock is the main worry here.
07:43And without the stock, a healthy stock, or a sustainable stock, nobody has nothing.
07:49Okay?
07:50And so we've got to get our head together and we've got to take better care of this.
07:56There's still lobsters here, but you cannot harvest them in the summer and expect them to be there in the
08:01commercial season in the fall.
08:03It doesn't work that way.
08:04And the problem with the harvest in the summer, it's unregulated.
08:08It's not supposed to be happening.
08:09When you talk to commercial fishermen, they say that the moderate livelihood fishery, anything out of season, is dangerous to
08:17the stocks.
08:17They may say that to you, they never say that to me.
08:20Somebody that knows better?
08:21The question of First Nations' impact on lobster stocks has been trailing them for a long time.
08:28Questions remain unresolved.
08:29What are the natives entitled to?
08:31How many plan to enter the fishery and for which species?
08:34That's what the fight's all about.
08:37Lobsters.
08:37A few lobsters.
08:38First Nations fishers say their treaty rights were upheld by a 1999 Supreme Court decision.
08:45Donald Marshall was charged and convicted of fishing and selling eels without a license.
08:51Marshall was out to make a point on behalf of all Mi'kmaq that they have the right not only
08:55to hunt and fish without a license,
08:57but also to make a living doing it.
09:01The Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq, just 5% of the province's population, have a right to fish and sell
09:08their catch.
09:09To make what the court called a moderate livelihood.
09:13We're here to make sure our kids in the future will have something better.
09:20Because that's so weak, like look at him.
09:23Some bands have negotiated agreements with DFO to do that.
09:27But the government wants them to sell only during commercial seasons.
09:31It looks like he's going to make it though.
09:33Oh yeah, he's flopping, he's swimming now.
09:34But Cope says he should be able to fish for a moderate livelihood when needed.
09:39I don't like that they limit the potential of what we can make based on a term such as moderate
09:45livelihood.
09:48The opposition is still there, though not as overt as the open clashes of 2020.
09:54Indigenous fishers, a lot of them have talked about dealing with racism on the waters when they fish with non
10:01-indigenous fishers.
10:05They're dropping traps, but the guys behind the non-native fishers are cutting their traps as soon as they drop
10:13them.
10:14I don't think people realize how racism affects an individual.
10:18It's very personal and it's very stressful.
10:21And sometimes your life is put at risk because of it.
10:25So I think, you know, for the fishermen that I've interviewed, they would prefer to have a season where they
10:34could fish without feeling like they're being discriminated against.
10:38Some folks, some First Nations individuals will say that they are permitted to have a moderate livelihood fishery.
10:48Well, the Supreme Court said that.
10:50Yeah, but it's never been defined.
10:52You know, does racism play a role here, do you think?
10:57I don't think.
10:58I mean, back in 2020, that's how, unfortunately, I think it was painted.
11:04But I think what it was, I mean, certainly the communities here and the fishermen were painted as racist because,
11:10I mean, things exploded.
11:12First Nations gear was cut off and all that.
11:15That was just pent up frustration, anger, because nobody in the government seemed to be wanting to help.
11:23And they took it upon themselves.
11:25Was it right?
11:26No.
11:29No.
11:29No.
11:30No.
11:31We're just going to tie it around the boats here.
11:35What do you think is at the heart of their opposition?
11:37It's a very passionate field, fishing.
11:39I mean, right from your fishing ground, how you tie your traps, what bait you use.
11:44Your family's been doing it for so long, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
11:48So that if you feel like you're entitled to something, I get that they're going to be mad that there's
11:52people out there fishing
11:52and making money while they're not.
11:55But we could talk about residential schools.
11:57We could talk about the systematic racism.
12:00We could talk about the racism we get from the commercial fishing.
12:03But when it all comes down to it, we have a treaty right to do so.
12:05And if any one of them could fish in between the season, you guess what?
12:10They'll be out there fishing.
12:16But fishing out of season, as COPE has been doing, puts them in a tough spot, not just with commercial
12:21fishermen.
12:23DFO considers that illegal, leaving him few options to sell whatever he catches.
12:29Do you find you have places to sell when you're doing the moderate livelihood?
12:34Or how hard is it to sell during that time?
12:36It all depends on you.
12:38Like, I have the connections and the resources to be able to sell to, like, very broad markets.
12:44But for the person that don't have as good connections, then that's all they can do.
12:53Somebody can really nickel and dime them, right?
12:56In 2023, Canada's lobster industry pulled in almost $1.8 billion.
13:02Almost half of that coming from Nova Scotia.
13:04With so much money in play, Bernie Berry alleges fishing in the summer is being leveraged into big sales.
13:13This is simply a notice-season commercial black market fishery.
13:19Because it's profitable and most of the stuff that's being bought in here is being bought in cash and or
13:26drugs.
13:27Your average lobster buyer isn't doing that.
13:30So somebody else has got to be involved and stuff like that.
13:33How do you know that? Are you hearing stories or reports?
13:36Yeah, well, again, it's just anecdotal stuff.
13:43But what is the reality here?
13:45In a place where little goes unnoticed, we try to get to the bottom of what's really happening on the
13:51wharf.
13:53Coming up...
13:54How do I look? Terrible?
13:55We follow the money in the alleged black market.
13:58You can say I came out threatening or I sound threatening to arrest me.
14:01Who is in danger?
14:03As soon as I looked up at the wall and saw a pretty clear hole, it's pretty obvious it was
14:07a bullet.
14:08And just who has the right to fish lobster in these waters?
14:12Even if half of what they're saying is true, most people wouldn't even believe it.
14:29In this seaside town, for some, the only thing bigger than the love of lobster is the fear of the
14:35crime around the industry.
14:36This is the Clare region with a population of just 8,500.
14:41Where the lobster business in this small town has brought big city problems.
14:49I mean, I grew up here. I love my hometown.
14:52And it's hard seeing it being abused so badly.
14:56The towns along this shore have recently seen more than their fair share of crime.
15:01The Fifth Estate has tracked allegations of extortion, assault, arson, even threats to kill a dog.
15:10At one point it was happening so frequently, you couldn't even keep up with what was going on.
15:14And there's poaching going on from Yarmouth to anywhere.
15:17You know, it's so vast. The ocean's hard to control.
15:20J.C. Cummo runs a business at the Mataggan Wharf.
15:23It's coming primarily from the fact that this legal underground poaching activity generates a lot of money to a handful
15:29of people.
15:30And they will do everything they possibly can to keep it going.
15:34But what is really tearing apart this community?
15:37Many commercial fishers pointed the finger at the First Nations activity on Soniaville Wharf.
15:43First Nations can go out in the summer legally under a license known as FSC.
15:49Fishers can harvest limited amounts for food, social and ceremonial purposes.
15:55But they're not allowed to sell their catch.
15:59According to this internal report from DFO, authorities have evidence confirming that lobster-caught in FSC is being illegally sold,
16:07often through unreported cash sales.
16:10But is that the whole story?
16:13This guy right here is a small jumbo, so he's between three to four pounds.
16:17That's a big boy.
16:23Joffrey Jobert moved back to the Clare area from Halifax in 2020 to manage the family business.
16:30To the outside eye, the lobster processing business seems straightforward.
16:34So in a crate that we had seen earlier, those grey boxes, they hold about a hundred pounds just mixed
16:39in there.
16:41Buy lobsters from boats on the wharf, get the seafood out to distributors around the world.
16:46And then the trays are going to individually partition each lobster, and that's just to prevent them from eating each
16:52other.
16:52Did you have a sense of what you were getting yourself into?
16:54I had known a little bit that it can be a somewhat rough industry and one that's not always governed
17:00the best, I guess you could say.
17:01Or you hear stories that's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
17:07Buyers like Jobert have to go buy the book.
17:09We're not allowed to buy a seasoned lobster, and I think we would face a hefty fine if we did.
17:13I don't think the indigenous people support or want any of the criminal activity that's going on that their middlemen
17:20may be doing.
17:21I think they're just trying to find a place to sell their catch.
17:23So typically, like commercial fishermen, the last little while, they make them like $8 to $10 a pound.
17:28And then I've heard rumors that the indigenous fishermen are only going to pay around $4 a pound because it
17:33is an illegal lobster,
17:34kind of like a gray zone lobster, whatever you want to call it.
17:36Yeah.
17:36And I think that's just too low for the species they're dealing with.
17:42But I mean, from what you've seen, I mean, would you describe it as organized crime or what would you
17:45describe it as?
17:48Somewhat, somewhat organized, but I wouldn't say it's like a huge operation or such large scale.
17:56In early 2024, Joubert started buying from a new boat and trouble followed.
18:03The story goes that that boat had upset some people.
18:06So they started making small threats here and there, right?
18:10Like a text message or something like that to leave that boat alone.
18:13And I guess it kind of just boiled over to the point of that gunshot happening.
18:18That fall, a bullet ripped through his home.
18:22I cut through the dining room, the kitchen, and stopped in the living room.
18:26It just seemed so crazy and intense, not something I had experienced before.
18:30Do you feel scared knowing that there are individuals out there capable of this kind of stuff?
18:34I definitely feel uneasy.
18:35There's some reckless individuals like that that would, you know, go to those extents almost for nothing, for pride maybe.
18:46No one has been charged in that shooting.
18:52But we did track down one of the men charged with a number of lobster industry-related crimes,
18:58including allegedly threatening Joubert.
19:01If he doesn't answer the front, try the side.
19:03Yeah.
19:03Yeah.
19:04He calls himself a shady, fly-by-night lobster dealer.
19:08Fine. Have a good day.
19:10There were weeks of negotiations to get him on camera, including a few in-person visits.
19:20How do I look? Terrible?
19:22He eventually agrees to sit down with CBC Nova Scotia reporter Richard Cuthbertson.
19:27We're in the Lobster Mafia or, you know, my dad don't even talk after the time, it's not, like it's,
19:34you're still there.
19:36Born in every town, I guess, I don't know.
19:37This is 33-year-old Zachary Thibault.
19:40He's currently on house arrest.
19:42If the Thibault family is an organized family, they gotta change the definition.
19:45Bunch of degenerate drug addicts driving around and being assholes, about it.
19:49We wanted to know if he shot at Joffrey Joubert's home.
19:53Turns out Thibault was in jail at the time.
19:56Can't shoot that far, not from Burnside anyways.
19:59Yeah, you were in jail.
20:00We know Thibault is facing charges for threatening to kill Joubert, extortion and harassment.
20:07Thibault says he's done some bad things, but denies those allegations.
20:11So, you know, I went to jail this year, I was guilty on those I went to jail for, but
20:14definitely not f***ing guilty on this one.
20:18But beyond his criminal past, we wanted his insight.
20:22He says for years he worked as an unlicensed broker.
20:26And so this is all cash?
20:27Yeah, most of it.
20:28Yeah, so how much cash are we talking about?
20:30$50,000, $100,000.
20:32Like, you've got $50,000?
20:33Yep.
20:34Like, what are you carrying in?
20:35Huh?
20:36Pringle box, Pringle box, overboot.
20:40Middling truck, whatever.
20:41You're just driving around for $50,000 in cash?
20:43Yeah.
20:45He says unreported cash sales are a tax dodge and happen more often than people realize.
20:51There's 1,688,000 boats in District 33, 34.
20:56There's not one of them that doesn't sell lobster's cash.
20:58But you don't know for certain that those fishermen are not declaring that money on their taxes?
21:02If they report it, I'm a porn star.
21:04There's about as much likelihood as one is the other.
21:06Let me ask you this.
21:08All the business that you did, your unreported sales, how much of that was Indigenous?
21:12How much non-Indigenous?
21:1510% Indigenous.
21:16Yeah, 10-15%.
21:19And the rest is non-Indigenous?
21:21Yeah.
21:22Do you think this is all being sort of used to fuel this sort of energy against the Indigenous fisheries?
21:30Absolutely, absolutely.
21:31Whether it be a scapegoat or just a lightning rod.
21:34Is this all lobster?
21:35Absolutely not.
21:36And all just lobster green?
21:37I'll bet my reputation is as shitty as it may be on that.
21:42Thibault is making a point that echoes what many First Nations fishers told us.
21:47That they feel they're being unfairly blamed for risking stocks, causing crime and illegally selling.
21:54I get angry when I hear it's illegal.
21:59You know, it doesn't need to be portrayed that way, right?
22:09Shelly Denny is a fishery scientist.
22:11She also researches Mi'kmaq self-governance and the harm that comes when treaties aren't respected.
22:17If we are fishing in season with non-Mi'kmaq lobster fishers, that we are at risk.
22:25And that we can be targeted.
22:26Not every non-Mi'kmaq harvester is, you know, vile or, you know, against the fishery.
22:32But there are some out there who will very much make sure people are bothered
22:37and try as much as they can to discourage them from continuing to fish there.
22:44Some First Nations fishers at Soniaville told us they feel like they're being watched.
22:49Their every move tracked.
22:53When we were there, commercial fishers parked outside the fence, sitting, watching.
22:59And I own a boat over there.
23:02This Mi'kmaq fisher tells us seeing the commercial fishers brought back visceral memories.
23:07She sees their presence as intimidation, though it's not always this obvious.
23:13Are you monitoring cameras? Are you, like, reviewing footage?
23:16Tell me about, like, just keeping a track of all this.
23:19Yeah, well, listen, again, the number of people that's got eyes on that place.
23:23And then with the drone footage and stuff like this, it's, there's not much that escapes us.
23:31Bernie Berry and other commercial fishers are watching, reporting what they see to DFO from their cars and from the
23:38air.
23:39People actually do some drone video. You can't deny videos.
23:45They claim these videos show lobster being illegally harvested for sale.
23:50If you can climb a fire escape or a ladder with one camera, you can get up above, outside of
23:58the gate, you know, when you're back here, you're safe and everything, and you can see the whole thing, what's
24:01going on.
24:03Dan Fleck is a retired DFO officer hired to help the commercial fishers.
24:07He says their surveillance is necessary.
24:10We needed to have video physical proof in the eyes of the Canadian public, because it's a Canadian resource for
24:18everyone to actually see how it's being exploited, overexploited.
24:25One thing First Nations and commercial fishers agree on, that DFO enforcement isn't hitting the mark.
24:32First Nations fishers tell us they feel it's criminalizing their treaty rights.
24:36Commercial fishers we spoke to say DFO isn't cracking down hard enough.
24:42So we feel some pressure.
24:44Noel D'Entremont leads conservation and protection for the Maritime Region.
24:48There's a lot of opinions on this matter, whether the community members here in Clare, commercial industry, First Nations communities,
24:59everyone has their side.
25:02What we do is enforcement is enforcement.
25:06How difficult is that, though, for your officers when they're out there and knowing they have to make these distinctions?
25:12Yeah, so it is very challenging for our officers, and we do hear that.
25:17And that's where we try and give them the clarity that they need, that keep in mind what is authorized
25:24and what isn't.
25:27This past summer across southwest Nova Scotia, DFO seized six boats and more than 1,500 traps, filling their storage
25:36cages.
25:37Coming up, the long fight for Mi'kmaq managed fisheries.
25:41The government's reaction was severe, strong, crush the treaty fishery.
25:47This is our treaty.
25:49And the battle over the message.
25:51Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery could exist outside of the commercial season?
25:56No.
25:57No, I don't.
26:06And we're doing a lot of work right now, so there's like, so there's work, there's a lot of workers
26:11and stuff around.
26:15The majority of people that are out there fishing are all following the rules.
26:19The only thing that might differ is that some people fish out of season.
26:25As a Mi'kmaq fisherman and businessman, asserting what he says are his treaty rights,
26:30Matt Cope finds himself tangled in the web of accusations and anger surrounding the lobster fishery.
26:36And so they drive by here, my house and stuff.
26:40An eight-foot fence now surrounds his yard, built in part to block the prying eyes of fisheries officers,
26:47who he says surveil him from the street and with drones, ever since his arrest on fishery charges in 2020.
26:55Did somebody give them instructions to specifically target, say, certain native targets?
27:02Do you know what I mean?
27:03Like, if that's the case, then I find that's kind of stereotypical.
27:10Maybe unjust.
27:14We have no problem trying to work for it.
27:17So it's frustrating because they call us lazy when we don't work.
27:20And when we do work, we're taking something from them.
27:25Call me a criminal.
27:26Villains and poachers and organized crimes.
27:30Just the list goes on and on.
27:32It's just fear-mongering.
27:34He says DFO plays into that fear.
27:38I mean, if there was an avenue where I could report my catch and do it completely on the books
27:44and it be regulated, then I would do that.
27:46I have no problem doing that.
27:48There's nothing black market about it at all.
27:51I mean, if we have the rights, then make it so that we can sell our catch to the buyers.
27:56Make it so that we can report our catch.
28:03Here we go.
28:05Here they go.
28:09Put the haves together.
28:11It's getting dark again.
28:14Getting dark again.
28:16For the second time since we got up.
28:19It's getting dark again.
28:21It's getting dark again.
28:21They still love to go out there and fish.
28:23I mean, despite all the challenges, I mean, it's part of their core of who they are as Mi'kmaq.
28:29We've always been a coastal people and the fishery's always been a part of our life.
28:33And they absolutely love it out there.
28:36They absolutely love it.
28:37Being able to fish and look after their families and look after their friends.
28:43There's so much pride in being part of that.
28:47You've got to thank Dowl Marshall Jr.
28:49It all started there.
28:54In 1999, Dan Christmas was the executive chairperson of the Union of Nova Scotia Indians.
29:01A prominent member of the team supporting the Marshall case.
29:05And finally, I remember that day, September 17, 1999.
29:09Clearly as Bell.
29:12I wasn't there for myself.
29:15I was there for my people.
29:16When our lawyer called us and said that we had won.
29:21And so that was probably one of the most happiest moments.
29:26Because I think we knew, all of us in that room, that things will never be the same again.
29:34In that landmark ruling, the Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq could fish for a so-called moderate livelihood.
29:41But the court left it up to First Nations and the federal government to negotiate what that term meant in
29:47practice.
29:50What does moderate livelihood mean?
29:53We have no idea.
29:54We always thought that was a fiction, a legal fiction.
29:57That really had no meaning.
29:59It was almost discriminatory, almost racist to say, well, you know, everyone else can fish commercially.
30:07But when you do your fishery, you know, keep it down here.
30:11Don't make too much money off it.
30:15The Mi'kmaq were given the right to basically harvest the bounty of creation to sustain ourselves.
30:23That's how we understood it.
30:27In the following years, DFO did help expand Mi'kmaq fisheries, transferring licenses to them from commercial fishers.
30:34But Christmas says DFO avoided the key issue, one that would follow him later in his career.
30:41They wanted us to accept cash to enable First Nations to obtain boats, licenses, gear, training.
30:52But without ever referencing the treaty or the court case.
30:57And so it enabled the communities to enter into the fishery, the commercial fishery, in a big way.
31:04There was no recognition of our treaty right, what the court called a moderate fishery.
31:11And we continued to ask the government, are you going to set up a table to talk about the treaty
31:17right?
31:20And it was just silence.
31:22So why don't you just take yourself to the end of the war and respect us?
31:25We do respect you and we will.
31:27Listen, do we have to blockade this war for what?
31:29That silence led to clashes when First Nations fishers took to the water and DFO responded in force.
31:38Oh my God!
31:41You have a license issued by the Department of Fisheries to authorize you.
31:45You understand that?
31:47The fish is under full fishery, this is our treaty.
31:55Then as now, commercial fishers have stood in opposition, arguing the stock must be protected.
32:04This is nowhere near aggressive.
32:07The various fishers associations have since taken their message to the courts, government and media,
32:13forming the Unified Fisheries Conservation Alliance in 2020.
32:17We collected millions of dollars from our members and we have a key mandate and it's to pursue a legal
32:24resolution to the Marshall issue.
32:27Colin Sproul is the head of the Alliance.
32:30I think that a lot of Indigenous governments have perverted the Marshall decision into thinking that,
32:36that Marshall rights mean an open-ended accumulation of fishery access for coastal First Nations.
32:42Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery could exist outside of the commercial season?
32:47No. No, I don't.
32:49There's one lobster resource for Atlantic lobster and it needs to be managed under one set of management plans.
32:56Commercial fishers argue against expanding treaty fisheries by pointing to the off-season as a time when lobster can repopulate.
33:03This lobster here, ooh, lovely little, little eggs, they're always in sort of some sort of reproductive season.
33:11They're not a very complicated species, you know, they're basically the insects of the sea.
33:15Shelly Denny is the Director of Aquatic Research and Stewardship at the Unamagi Institute of Natural Resources.
33:22It's healthy, it's been healthy.
33:24I mean, there's been some ups and downs like any other species that's fished commercially.
33:27The resource is fine, the lobster industry and the population seems to be doing great
33:32and, you know, there just needs to be more room made and more accommodations made for Mi'kmaq fishers.
33:37The level at which the Mi'kmaq are harvesting, even if they're harvesting during seasons where the lobster industry isn't,
33:45the impact would be minimal.
33:48The internal DFO memo we obtained through access to information confirms much of what she's saying.
33:54Dated June 13th, it says lobster stocks across the Maritimes, including around St. Mary's Bay, are in the healthy zone.
34:02And that while the commercial catch is trending down in parts,
34:06DFO says the decrease has not been directly linked to the food, social and ceremonial fishery.
34:13Like, no matter what the government says, no matter what biologists say,
34:18we can see the effect of the incredible amount of illegal fishing.
34:22DFO's own science, though, is saying that overall the health of the stock is in good shape.
34:27So is that not a good enough sign that things are okay and that there is enough for everyone?
34:32Certainly the lobster resource is in good shape, but it's important to understand why it is.
34:37Trap limits, releasing of buried females, minimum sizes, increasing the minimum size, escape vents in our traps.
34:44There are literally hundreds of management things, but the most important one of all is the seasonality of our fishery.
34:50At the end of the day, though, isn't it as simple as there is only so much to go around
34:55and you and your members simply just don't want to share?
34:58You don't want to give up your share of the pie?
35:00Certainly there's enough lobsters to sustain all the communities that need to rely on it.
35:05I think those narratives have been put forward by certain Indigenous leaders because it's politically advantageous to them.
35:16Thirteen people have held the position of fisheries minister since the Marshall decision.
35:20The current minister, Joanne Thompson, sent us this statement.
35:24Let me be very clear, fishing without a license is illegal.
35:29She also says that since the Marshall decision, the government of Canada has invested over $1 billion to implement the
35:36right through communal commercial fishing licenses.
35:40That didn't completely answer our questions.
35:44So we came to Ottawa to ask the minister directly if she will resolve a quarter century of uncertainty.
35:51Hi Minister, we're the Fifth Estate. Just wondering, will you commit to solving the moderate livelihood question one for all?
35:59Minister, what do you think about DFO? Do you feel like they're criminalizing First Nations fishers by enforcing the law
36:04the way they are?
36:07The minister didn't give us much of her time, but look who did get a meeting with her.
36:12Check out this photo from June.
36:15Some familiar faces.
36:16Bernie Berry, Dan Fleck, and Colin Sproul.
36:23Coming up.
36:24Sometimes they're getting their boat seized, sometimes they're getting their car seized.
36:27Mi'kmaq fishers forced to take their fight back to court.
36:31We've been criminalized, harassed, all the way through this system that's designed to be racist towards us.
36:47October 1st.
36:50In Nova Scotia, this is Treaty Day.
36:53A chance to recognize the peace and friendship struck by the Mi'kmaq and the Crown.
36:58We are all treaty people.
37:03But also a reminder of the work remaining.
37:09Twenty-six years since the landmark position.
37:13We still need to work on trying to get our rights recognized.
37:20The event had plenty of dignitaries, but few provincial or federal politicians showed up.
37:30It's an annual event, and every year, questions hang over the celebration.
37:35Will anything change?
37:37And is Canada listening?
37:40Indigenous people have the right to self-determination.
37:43We have the right to govern and manage our own fishery.
37:47As long as that principle is ignored, we'll never have peace in the water.
37:54Matt Cope often finds himself forced to shed his fishing gear and put on a suit.
38:01I don't even think I can count how many of these I've been through.
38:07He's faced a number of lobster fishery charges since 2020, and hopes his case will be among the last.
38:15Fundamentally, when DFO says you're breaking the law, do you see yourself as breaking the law?
38:19Absolutely not.
38:21The very law that they're claiming that I'm breaking is unconstitutional.
38:28I am the owner-editor of Gugu Guest News, independent Indigenous news in Atlantic Canada.
38:37Journalist Maureen Gugu is closely following how the fisheries fight has moved from the water to the courts.
38:44It takes up a lot of my time. There's at least about two, three cases each week.
38:50I started getting calls from fishermen, and they were saying that they were trying to do their treaty fishery in
38:57the summer,
38:58and they were getting their gear seized, not recognizing their moderate livelihood treaty rate.
39:04DFO was still enforcing the Fisheries Act and charging them with illegal fishing.
39:12So I just started tracking the court cases, getting the court information.
39:16I was really shocked to learn that there were over 50 Indigenous Fishers who were charged.
39:25It is so disheartening.
39:28You would think that after Marshall, that there would be no more court cases.
39:36But it seems that the government is so anxious to re-litigate the case, that they want to get a
39:42different decision.
39:43That they'll continue to charge and charge and charge and recharge.
39:47Why not the federal government just sit down with the First Nation leaders and hammer out what a treaty fishery
39:56looks like?
40:00It's not a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery. It's a DFO commercial fishery.
40:04So until the day comes when it becomes truly a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery, then we would have arrived to
40:10where we should be.
40:12Dan Christmas saw a way forward without going to the courts.
40:15After he was made a Senator, the first Mi'kmaq in the upper chamber, he led a Senate report recommending
40:22Fisheries and Oceans Canada fully recognize treaty fishing.
40:26Let Mi'kmaq create their own system, separate from the commercial structure.
40:30I can't tell you how disappointed I was when DFO just summarily dismissed our recommendations as nothing.
40:41Over the generation they've been at this, for Dan Christmas...
40:45We would like to have the promise, and also Governor of Canada, to recognize that these ways of living still
40:50are extended in our community.
40:52And that they're still an important means for some of our families to get by each year.
40:56And Bernie Berry...
40:58There is individuals saying, you know, let's go fishing next week.
41:02Others are saying leave your plots in the water after the season type thing.
41:05There is, certainly is frustration.
41:07It always comes back to family and livelihood.
41:11Cross your fingers, cross your toes, and hope for the best.
41:13But a lot of instinct and experience go into it, doesn't it?
41:16If you go fishing for 30 or 40 or 50 years, Mother Nature usually wins a bigger percentage of the
41:23time, and you're just playing catch up.
41:26He hopes their strong ties to the past are respected when the future of the fishery is set.
41:32The industry should have a lot more input, as opposed to somebody, like you said, sitting in an office in
41:37Ottawa, and just thinking how it should look.
41:43A really good friend of mine made this for me.
41:47I wear it at special stuff, like events.
41:50Sometimes I wear it to court and stuff.
41:54Especially with the ones where we're arguing the treaty.
41:57It's got the lobster on there.
42:01Commemorating the 1752 treaty.
42:05Matt Cope draws strength from the treaties, because for him, they're more than history.
42:11They're personal.
42:14But right there, that's our family tree with Jean-Baptiste Cope.
42:22He would be my great-great-grandfather.
42:25He's one of the most recognized signatories of the 1752 treaty that gave us the right to hunt and fish.
42:36For now, he's going to keep setting off, resolved not to be trapped on the water.
42:41I'm already almost 40 years old, so I want my children to be able to exercise their rights.
42:47I want them to be able to work hard and fish and be able to make a living out of
42:51it.
42:53I have the right to fish. I have the right to sell that fish.
42:57It's protected under the Constitution, and I'm going to fight that until the end.
43:09On this season of The Fifth Estate.
43:11That's all that stuff.
43:14You're watching the movement of funds, and you're looking for points where there's a mistake made.
43:19And there's almost always a mistake made.
43:21He went on to be a very evil genius in that way.
43:26Where are all these drugs coming from?
43:28I would love to answer that, but I can't.
43:30Because?
43:31Because I know where they're coming from.
43:34We need to talk to the police. We need to talk to the resort. We don't know where he is.
43:39Do you come here often?
43:40I do. I sleep in here quite often.
43:44You sleep in his bed?
43:45I do, yeah.
43:47When a mother breaks down on the phone with you and cries because her son is missing, it's not easy.
43:55You may have an idea of where these guys could be.
43:58Yep, for sure.
44:00Places burning down, windows getting smashed in, houses being shot up.
44:04There's nothing to do with conservation, it's just, it's total greed.
44:07Oh my gosh, hi.
44:09You won't leave.
44:10No. No, no, no.
44:12Do you hope that people can overcome the stigma?
44:15I'd be dead by now if I didn't think so.
44:17I said, just give me my son back.
44:19The only person that needs to be at risk here is me.
44:22We've been trying to reach you now for several weeks.
44:25I think he's hung up.
44:27I'm Steven D'Souza.
44:28I'm Ioana Rumeliotis.
44:29I'm Mark Kelly.
44:31This, this, this is The Fifth Estate.
44:35What we did?
44:51Try something to break in this essay.
44:52You both've got, and you know the sea start with someone fired,
44:54You've got the importance to your game or the sea cast.
44:54So let's get ahead of yourfathers,
44:55To be a fighter now if you haven'tраз your own,
45:03you've got my favorite story before moving in the field.
45:03You can see me Heaven by their own negative side or strong,
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