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00:00Imagine you're 21 years old, standing in the middle of a crowded airport, when the world starts to fracture.
00:05The Tano announcements stop being about flight times and start sounding like messages from God.
00:10For this week's podcast guest, Rosie Viva, this wasn't a scene from a film.
00:13It was a psychotic episode at Stansted Airport that led to her being arrested, sectioned, and finally diagnosed with type
00:201 bipolar.
00:21My psychosis was so intense that I just assumed it wasn't reality.
00:24Before that moment, Rosie was modelling for Gucci, travelling the globe, while being told by therapists that her moodiness was
00:31just the by-product of a high-pressure job.
00:33But the truth was much more nuanced and, like for many women, far more misunderstood.
00:37Today we're asking, what does the world still get wrong about bipolar, especially for women?
00:42Three years after my diagnosis was the first time I stumbled across the topic rather than looking for it.
00:48Everyone hushes their voice. Everyone goes, and how do you feel about bipolar?
00:52It's this shame through that tone. And I just thought, no one's talking at me in a rational way.
00:58Like, you're all talking to me like I'm a cat.
01:00You know, life has to become quite funny when you thought you were Susan Boyle for a week, like I
01:03did.
01:03And so I'm...
01:04You've got to laugh at that.
01:05Yeah, I mean, my parents. My mum said she was really trying to keep a straight face, but she'd have
01:09to go off to the bathroom and just laugh to herself.
01:11Before we begin, please be aware that this episode contains discussions of bipolar disorder, psychosis, and thoughts of suicide.
01:18So please listen with care.
01:19Rosie Viva, author, mental health advocate, activist, model. Welcome to Well Enough.
01:26Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
01:28Now, I read your book and it was fascinating to me for so many reasons.
01:34It taught me a lot. It was incredible to get a sense of what your lived experience has been like.
01:41And I want to talk about it, but I also want to talk about bipolar.
01:45Do you think you could explain for anyone listening that might not really understand what it means and might still
01:50be thinking in cliches?
01:51Yeah. So I always say, even now I've been speaking about bipolar for maybe four or five years.
01:57I got diagnosed seven years ago.
01:59I still think being asked what is bipolar is the hardest question to answer.
02:03Just because there's such different definitions out there, even in the medical world, it is a mood disorder.
02:09So the best way I find to describe it is that it is someone who has a wider breadth of
02:15mood than the average person.
02:17So you experience higher highs and lower lows, and that's characterized on the top end into hypomania and mania.
02:25Mania is delusion, psychosis, hypomania, rapid speech, feeling elated.
02:32And then on the lower end, you've got depression.
02:34And then I guess bipolar depression's nature is that it's much deeper.
02:38And so it goes into suicidal thoughts.
02:40It goes into paranoia.
02:42And for a lot of people, it also goes psychotic again.
02:44So if you have type one, you go into that sort of top bandwidth and you can have delusional thinking.
02:50And so often you need to be sectioned.
02:52And then type two, you have hypomania and mania, but you may not lose your vision.
02:57And so a lot of people with type two, it takes them longer to get a diagnosis because they never
03:01go into that state where you absolutely have to be, you know, sectioned.
03:06And then on the lower end, both people with type one and type two have this very sort of serious
03:10type of depression.
03:11Although you may react quite badly to SSRIs and feel that you're someone who's broken and can't be fixed.
03:18And that's where it's really important to get a diagnosis of bipolar because there's very different medication around this to
03:23depression.
03:24So we have antipsychotics, we have mood stabilizers, and all these things just work on different parts of the brain.
03:30So I hope that helps.
03:32Yeah, absolutely.
03:33And, you know, people do still, I think, they apply the term bipolar or they use it or they throw
03:38it around in a way that is quite flippant or, you know, describes someone maybe acting depressed or quite happy.
03:45But, you know, it's not accurate the way that they're using it because we see it used in comedy.
03:52We, you know, we see the term used to describe a way of being that I think is maybe associated
03:58with quite an old fashioned view on mental health too.
04:01Which I think you talk about in your book brilliantly because you talk about the nuances of what the condition
04:05actually means.
04:06And then also how some people just completely miss the point, which I thought was really illuminating.
04:10Oh, I'm really glad.
04:11I do think, yeah, the word is used so flippantly.
04:14And I remember growing up, I had a teacher who used to chuck rulers at kids and he had some
04:20sort of anger issue.
04:21And we always called him evil and we'd also call him bipolar.
04:24So when I first received my diagnosis, I went straight back to Mr. Burns.
04:29Also quite an ironic name for a teacher with this issue.
04:32But that was my understanding.
04:34I went, oh my God, I'm 21 and I've just found out that I'm Mr. Burns and I'm going to
04:38be this sort of erratic character.
04:40So I don't actually mind if people have that understanding because I have to remember that was me and I
04:44learned from a place of complete mis-education.
04:47But it is, yeah, I guess the British weather is another example which people see it as.
04:51And that's why it's really important that I need to get educated because it's so far from that type of
04:57character or unpredictability.
04:59Well, the work that you're doing in terms of advocacy and activism is incredible.
05:03You know, just speaking about it really frankly.
05:05And when you talk about people misunderstanding it, you know, sometimes even doctors aren't understanding it well, are they?
05:10It can be mistaken for lots of other things and there can be a lot of misdiagnosis that goes on.
05:16I wonder if you can tell me a bit about your experience of getting that diagnosis because I read that
05:22you were working as a model.
05:23You had this probably quite intense job quite young and you started to think, oh, are my mood shifts and
05:30my anxiety normal?
05:32Are they part of my job?
05:34Is this something that's happening to me because I'm under a lot of pressure or is it something else?
05:39What was that experience like?
05:41So I guess, yeah, I got into modelling straight after school.
05:44I was very neurodivergent at school.
05:46I couldn't concentrate.
05:47I was very hyperactive and I sort of had this internal dialogue that I was really stupid because of the
05:53way I am.
05:53And modelling was one of those things where, you know, the younger you are, the better and the more you're
05:59going to make before you go into your 20s.
06:02So I started straight away.
06:03But I guess in the first year after school, I sunk into quite a big depression and my mum noticed
06:09it because I was living with them at the time.
06:11They were in London and it made sense while I was going to castings to sort of stay based there.
06:15But I was so fatigued that she realised like this isn't a normal type of depression.
06:21And I went and I got an underactive thyroid diagnosis, which I try and mention as much as possible in
06:26interviews because it delayed my bipolar diagnosis for quite a few years.
06:30And hormones are so sort of linked with bipolar.
06:34But I guess when I was modelling that the medication for that did help, but I was having these huge
06:38highs and lows.
06:39And I guess on the high end, I did know my privilege and I was aware of the fact that
06:44girls my age weren't flying to New York or earning this amount of money.
06:47So I sort of validated it in that sense.
06:50And I was lying a lot to my mum about my energy levels.
06:53So I remember in New York, I was running half marathons and I wasn't sleeping for days and I was
06:57going clubbing.
06:58But when I'd call her, I'd say, yeah, you know, I'm really tired.
07:01I had an early night.
07:02So I knew I was masking something.
07:04But I think at the age of 19, 20, you just want to be normal.
07:09So I just thought, oh, God, I don't want anyone to know about this part of my personality.
07:12It's a bit intense.
07:13And then I guess on the low end with a lot of people who struggle with any form of depression,
07:17when you are aware of your privilege, I just felt ungrateful.
07:21And I thought I was a bad person and I thought, why can't you enjoy this life?
07:25Why are you struggling to get out of bed?
07:27But yeah, it was just a very confusing time of not really understanding myself and my personality.
07:33And I guess my diagnosis came when eventually in 2018, I went into such a low low of a very
07:41anxious state that I went to see a doctor because I couldn't work and work was defining me.
07:46I didn't know who I was outside of it.
07:48And then I guess on antidepressants that year, just brought on new symptoms like paranoia, hearing voices, hallucinations.
07:55And I got my diagnosis when eventually on sertraline and going through a breakup, my brain just went into complete
08:04crisis and overwhelm after nine months of feeling so suicidal.
08:08And that's when I went into my first psychotic episode and showed my bipolar symptoms like very clearly.
08:14I remember reading about that experience and actually a friend introduced us.
08:21And when I first spoke to her about you, she said, you've got to you've got to ask her to
08:26tell this story because she says it in such a funny way.
08:29But it's such a serious story.
08:31And I wonder if you can talk about that moment when you, you know, you and, you know, medical staff
08:38really noticed that something was going on with you because, you know, it is a story that I think when
08:44you read it for the first time, you think this is wild and shocking.
08:47But then it created this kind of catalyst to you getting that diagnosis, didn't it?
08:51Yes. And it's also makes the front of my book make sense.
08:55So it was 2018 and it was September and I had just broken up with my boyfriend at the time.
09:01We'd fallen out of love and he also didn't recognize me anymore.
09:05So I was insecure. I couldn't go out in public.
09:08I was, you know, crying every day, having panic attacks.
09:11And the relationship had to come to an end for me to deal with what was going on rather than
09:15just sort of cling on to him for dear life.
09:17So that happened. And then the next day I just had the weirdest experience.
09:21I just woke up and I started saying to my friends, I'm cured.
09:25I was like, I don't feel a pang of anxiety.
09:27I don't feel depression. I feel so happy.
09:29And I think everyone at first was like, oh, that's really good, Rosie.
09:32Like, are you going to keep up therapy?
09:34I was like, no, I was like, I'm perfect.
09:36Like, I'm absolutely perfect.
09:37And my language was just very, very strange in that sense.
09:41I wasn't in touch with reality of the weight of the last year I'd had, constantly going to A&E
09:47for panic attacks.
09:48It was like, it was all fine.
09:49And that just escalated into complete euphoria.
09:52So for two weeks after that breakup, I started to become very religious.
09:57You know, everything was happening for a reason.
09:59And I was noticing synchronicities in my life.
10:02And it felt like I was building up into this big moment.
10:06And I started writing in my diary, you know, I think I've been chosen by God.
10:09Were you religious before or was this brand new?
10:12No, like devoutly atheist growing up.
10:14Always with a huge religious interest, I think.
10:17Like, when I was 16, I had this weird sort of A star, top in the school, RS exam.
10:24And it was because I got obsessive and hyper-focused on it.
10:27And I just couldn't stop thinking about religion.
10:30And I've always had a sense of magic in me, which I'm now trying to speak more openly about because
10:35it comes with bipolar.
10:37So I'd had a spiritual side, but I just didn't, again, talk about it in my early 20s or anything
10:41like that.
10:42And then I guess, yeah, two weeks after this, these thoughts escalated and I stopped sleeping.
10:47And I went into psychosis for the first time, where similar to if you've ever been on psychedelics and everything
10:55is in much more detail, I would say it was something like that, but at times 100, because it's come
11:00from you.
11:01And that high is innate.
11:03And so it's much more intense.
11:05And I think you're seeing the world in a way I've never seen it before.
11:09And I was supposed to go to the airport that day because my parents were very concerned by my language.
11:14I was posting online a lot that I was a reincarnation of a sibling who died from leukemia.
11:18And so I think my whole family didn't know how to deal with that moment and didn't know how to
11:22support me and didn't know what was going on.
11:24But when I reached the airport to fly to be with them, my psychosis was so intense that I just
11:30assumed it wasn't reality.
11:32And so I don't know if you've ever looked at a baggage drop off and thought that'd be so fun
11:36to know what goes on.
11:37And I wish, I'm actually going to tell you the truth of my thoughts.
11:40It wasn't even that.
11:42It was that my ex was a musician.
11:43He had a music video idea to jump through baggage drop off.
11:47And obviously, like, I got dumped and I must have thought, I'm going to live out his dream, which I've
11:52only said for the first time on a podcast this year.
11:55And I've always said it wasn't that, but it was.
11:57So I thought, I'm going to do that and he'll come back to me because I've done his dream.
12:00So I jumped through and then I sort of just had the weight of what had happened and I hit
12:05the fire alarm on my left.
12:07And then when I heard that sound, it was just like all of the emotions of those 21 years of
12:13my life came out and I was just shaking and crying.
12:16And I just said, I need help.
12:18Like the fun's over.
12:19I just knew that I was back in my reality and it was just the start of hell.
12:24So I was arrested, but because of my language being so religious, it was very soon after that, that I
12:30was sectioned and given the right diagnosis.
12:33And then from that point, this is, I guess, when you decide I'm not seeing many people talking about this
12:39and what this experience is like.
12:41So I'm going to talk about it.
12:42Yeah, it's taken a long time to get there because that blanket of shame was so obvious and it wasn't
12:49even in the media that I noticed the shame.
12:52Like I couldn't find it in a magazine.
12:54The first time I read about it was Women's Health.
12:56Three years after my diagnosis was the first time I stumbled across the topic rather than looking for it.
13:01But even when you get home and all your parents' friends come round and they see you going to bed
13:06early and they go, how are you doing, darling?
13:08Everyone hushes their voice.
13:10Everyone goes, and how do you feel about bipolar?
13:13It's this shame through that tone.
13:15And I just thought no one's talking at me in a rational way.
13:19Like you're all talking to me like I'm a cat.
13:21And I was just like picked up on that.
13:23And, you know, with friends, I felt as soon as I spoke about it for more than 10 minutes, I
13:28felt I'd overstayed my welcome.
13:29And people didn't know how to respond.
13:32No one asked me questions.
13:33Like if I had a friend go into hospital, I'd be like, oh, my God, what was the food like?
13:36Who did you meet?
13:37But no one had that forthcoming approach with me.
13:41No one asked me what hospital was like.
13:42And I was like, what?
13:44This is the most fascinating thing I've ever been through.
13:46Like I've been in a psych ward.
13:47It's not in documentaries online because that height of psychosis isn't captured on TV as it shouldn't be because you
13:54are in such a vulnerable state.
13:56But I just didn't understand why people weren't curious.
13:58And it was shame.
14:00And I just started to realize like, wow, that's not good.
14:03And that's not helping my depression.
14:05And it was the reason why I wanted to take my life because I felt like I'd been given a
14:09death sentence rather than a diagnosis.
14:11Were you able to I mean, it must have been really difficult.
14:15If everyone around you doesn't really understand it and are too frightened to ask about it, how are you then
14:20able to put tools in place to help yourself?
14:23Were there any things that you were able to do straight away that kind of supported you or were they
14:29things you really had to learn along the way and kind of figure out as you went?
14:32So I guess in the NHS system, when you're given a bipolar one diagnosis, you're given three years of support.
14:39And that's really intense.
14:40And I think that's where your privilege helps your recovery time, sadly, because you're too ill to work.
14:47And so a lot of people who can't move in with their parents and stop their job, it's just so
14:52destabilizing in so many ways.
14:55But in that three years, you're given therapy, you're given human contact about three times a week at the beginning.
15:02And that first step is getting your medication right, because until you can get up in the morning, you're not
15:07going to be able to exercise, eat well, surround yourself with the right people.
15:11Like all of those things come later.
15:12So it was a really long learning process.
15:16And that first year, unfortunately, is so around the chemical imbalance in your brain.
15:21And then slowly but surely, you just have to sort of learn, OK, what what sends me up?
15:27What sends me down?
15:28How do I manage these things not becoming too often?
15:32And that is I'm still learning new triggers this year.
15:35Like as you grow older, different things will upset you in different things you won't find challenging anymore.
15:39So it's just a continuous learning curve, I think.
15:42Well, I guess we're always we're always getting to know ourselves, aren't we?
15:45No matter what our mental state is or where we're at, we're always trying to figure out how we affect
15:50that state and, you know, what pushes us in one direction or the other.
15:53Do you still have therapy now?
15:54Is that something that features quite heavily in your life?
15:56Is it important?
15:57So I've had an on and off relationship with therapy.
16:00I think I was quite scared by it because I was in therapy every week before my diagnosis.
16:05And I think I held a lot of resentment that they didn't spot what happened because it was four years,
16:11five years.
16:11I couldn't support myself financially.
16:13Like it really knocks you out of the game.
16:15And the fact that I was speaking about my thoughts to someone without a filter before, I just thought, you
16:20know, what therapy is not for me.
16:21And then I was given it through the NHS and I just had quite a bad experience because the medication,
16:28like especially aripiprazole, which was quite a strong antipsychotic I was on at the beginning, caused me to have binge
16:33eating disorder.
16:34And I was trying to speak to my therapist about that because I'd never struggled really with an eating disorder,
16:38which dominated my life.
16:41And she said, you know, if you want to talk about this in therapy, you need to get an eating
16:45disorder therapist.
16:47And it was like, okay, you need to, you know, you need to mask some of your thoughts, only talk
16:52about bipolar.
16:53And the more I speak about this, the more I realized that bipolar is so comorbid with other illness and
16:58it all comes into the same sort of thing.
17:00So I stopped again after her because I just felt, you know, what's the point?
17:04And that's when I got a lot into writing down my thoughts instead of speaking to someone.
17:08And then, you know, I dip into it when I went through grief.
17:10I was worried that might spike me.
17:12When I left my last relationship, I had therapy because I was worried I'd have another episode.
17:16So I've reached out and get it when I need extra support.
17:20And then I guess, yeah, I was in a desk job for two years where I felt like my neurodivergence
17:25was really obvious and I was feeling really bad at the job.
17:28So I started therapy again and I'm looking into an autism diagnosis at the moment.
17:32So I know instinctively when there's someone I need to speak to, but I don't think I'll ever be consistent
17:38with it because there's moments of stability with bipolar, which I just sort of want to enjoy when I'm in
17:43it, which is really nice.
17:44There's no right way, I don't think, to do therapy.
17:47And also the idea that you've got to find the right match, you know, it comes up time and time
17:52again whenever we talk about therapy on this podcast, because if you don't find the right match and you don't
17:57feel supported, there's not a lot of point being in that room.
17:59You know, being asked to separate the strands of yourself and say, well, you know, have this problem today and
18:04that problem the next day.
18:05It's not really that helpful.
18:06So I can completely understand why sort of being gaslit like that was not a good experience.
18:11Yeah, it was it was crazy.
18:14And now I look back, I just thought, oh, God, this is, you know, this is something which a lot
18:18of people with bipolar really struggle with.
18:21And whether you're someone who's modelled or whether you're someone who's just used to wearing the same jean size for
18:25the last 20 years of your life, it totally changes your body.
18:28And it's something you need to be on for the rest of your life.
18:31And so that's actually a huge issue for women and men with bipolar.
18:35And it's just a shame that, you know, therapists who don't live with this condition want to keep you in
18:40a box.
18:41But a really good therapist will see the sort of whole holistic thing of everything you talk about might be
18:47a symptom of bipolar.
18:48And if you sort of work on those issues, the bipolar underneath will get a lot better.
18:52And this comes up a lot as well.
18:54It's kind of it's a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B, the idea that,
18:58you know, sometimes a really good therapist will take that holistic approach and say, well, what about everything else in
19:03your life?
19:04And I know that you've spoken about a love of long distance running and other aspects, you know, that have
19:10supported you.
19:11You talk a lot about sleep in your book and sleep is obviously one of the huge things that underpins
19:15our health.
19:16Do you have any other habits that you've put into place personally that help you feel more steady?
19:21For a lot of the time, I'm trying to slow down because I'm someone who's quite prone to hype, like
19:27hypomania.
19:28And I find the high is harder to talk about publicly than the lows because people sort of assume, oh,
19:33God, are you OK?
19:34Like this needs to end.
19:37And I had it recently, well, not too recently, but I was seeing someone and I said, oh, shall I?
19:42I'm quite high at the moment.
19:44And they said, oh, do you want to cancel tomorrow?
19:46I thought, oh, my God, I might be here for three months.
19:48I can't keep canceling plans because I'm in this like it's not a bad thing.
19:51I'm just telling you.
19:52And it wasn't him being mean or anything, but it's just those moments where you think, oh, we've got to
19:55get out of this.
19:56But I guess like when you're in hypomania, there's really good ways to keep it at bay.
20:00And that's something which I think a lot of people with bipolar would love to learn more about how to
20:04manage.
20:05And those are just mindfulness things.
20:07And it is, you know, cooking a really difficult recipe where you're concentrating for two hours and you're appreciating the
20:14food you're having and you're having a big meal that slows down a high really well.
20:18Yoga is really good.
20:19And again, like in a wellness context, that sounds really basic, but it's just good not to overexercise when you're
20:25high because you can do so much damage to your joints and you can't long distance run if you overexercise.
20:30So I think I do a lot of stuff to slow myself down, which is really important to staying well.
20:36It's just keeping a sense of calm.
20:38Reading is like the best way, even when I'm high.
20:41If I do that for an hour before bed, I'll fall asleep after.
20:44And so those are tools which are really helpful to make sure that I never go too up, I guess.
20:49I mean, the classics are classics for a reason, aren't they?
20:51Yeah, they're so great.
20:52I love a good book.
20:53Yeah.
20:54And I just like, that's the thing with bipolar.
20:56It's not too far from everyone's experience.
20:58It's just that first step of taking antipsychotics.
21:01If you have type one, you can't do all these wellness activities until that's sorted.
21:06So a diagnosis is so important to get the right medication because when you're depressed with bipolar, you can't exercise.
21:14It's so physical.
21:15You can't read a book because you can't concentrate or you don't see the point.
21:19So I just really encourage people to be curious about a diagnosis because then all these things you see online,
21:24you can participate in.
21:26So, yeah.
21:27It's a shame as well, feeling like you might have to retreat from your social life too.
21:31I mean, you touched on it there when you were talking about someone saying, oh, do you want to cancel?
21:35The stigma that still surrounds bipolar and having maybe friends around you that say, oh, well, if you're being particularly
21:42bipolar, maybe we don't spend time together.
21:44What's that experience been like?
21:46Because it sounds horrible.
21:47Yeah, it's difficult.
21:49I think I was really scared to be depressed around friends for a while, but now I've got such an
21:55incredible close-knit group of friends and they don't even know when I'm depressed.
21:59I get sort of like, oh, I'm so sorry I wasn't chatty.
22:02I'm so sorry I was totally in my head.
22:03And they're like, Rosie, we never notice.
22:06And actually, it's really good to have days where you just listen to your friends and try and get out
22:11of your head in that way.
22:12I think what I found difficult in the past is I've been high around friends and a really close girlfriend
22:18once was so kind, being like, you know, this morning at breakfast, you wouldn't stop speaking.
22:23And, you know, our other friend was trying to talk about a difficult situation she was going through.
22:27And she said, Rosie, that came across really rude.
22:30And it was the first time that I could go, that was hypermania.
22:33I got home and ran a half marathon.
22:34I'm so sorry it came across rude.
22:37But now it's making me more self-aware.
22:39Maybe when I'm high, don't spend time with a friend who's going through a difficult time if my whole monologue
22:44is going to be about my own life.
22:45And I do want people to let me know how it comes across because I can't read those situations when
22:51I'm in it.
22:52So it's difficult.
22:54It's difficult to navigate, but it's really nice to just have an open dialogue with friends and rather than them
22:59tiptoe around.
23:00It's nice to be included, too.
23:01I guess if, you know, no one expects you to be really chatty or no one expects you to be
23:07really calm.
23:07And that's great because you can just be.
23:09Yeah, I think it's difficult for anyone young going through a diagnosis, though, because there were years where I stopped
23:15being invited to everything because I was depressed and I did have to go to bed at nine.
23:20And I still go to bed at around 10 most nights just out of fear of like slipping into these
23:26highs, because if I don't take my medication at 10, I don't need to sleep till six the next day.
23:31Like my sleep is totally dictated by my medicine.
23:34I'm very awake at night.
23:36But there was a lot of people who couldn't deal with that and a lot of people who couldn't deal
23:39with me coming and not drinking.
23:41So you do start missing out on stuff socially.
23:44But I guess then you start hanging out with people outside of alcohol and those friendships become so much richer.
23:49I think I'm noticing that more and more, especially with people that have been on this podcast and friends of
23:54mine that, you know, no one really expects you to have a drink in the way that they used to.
23:58So that's quite refreshing.
23:59Yeah.
23:59I mean, I definitely got into smoking for a few years to sort of handle that situation of like trying
24:04to be like, I'm still really cool.
24:06But that turned into a whole nother addiction.
24:08And then suddenly it was 30 a day.
24:10And I just was like, this is crazy.
24:12I need to get more comfortable at saying I don't, I'm not drinking.
24:15But then my latest hack is that you don't even need to say.
24:17And then people don't notice.
24:19Just go to the bar and order what you like and you don't announce.
24:23And then you have a great night.
24:24You get to drive home.
24:26Yeah.
24:26Perfect.
24:27No one's going to be interrogating you.
24:29So you don't, you don't have to tell you, you don't owe anyone an explanation for anything.
24:32No one cares when you go into your 30s, which is so exciting that no one cares as much because
24:36it's like, these are things I had to adjust when I was 21.
24:39And it was very notable at that age if you didn't drink or go out late.
24:42So thank God I'm getting older.
24:44Yeah.
24:44I think, I think we all experience that and we just start to realize that we don't have anyone to
24:48impress, which is glorious.
24:50So nice.
24:51I want to go back to what you said about hormones as well, because I remember you saying, I can't
24:57remember whether it was in the book or whether it was in an interview, but you said you thought for
25:00a while you might have PMDD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, because these symptoms were quite close to, you know, the symptoms
25:09of this condition.
25:10And also, you notice changes at different points in your cycle.
25:15What was that experience like kind of trying to separate the threads of women's health and mental health?
25:21Because these things can be very confusing, I think, for a lot of women.
25:24Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about this.
25:27And I'm so grateful to the woman who's given me this breakthrough.
25:30But yeah, in my book and the last seven years, my sort of cycle has been two weeks good, two
25:36weeks bad.
25:37And I came to accept my bipolar years ago when I started speaking publicly, like I'm really at peace with
25:42it.
25:42There's strengths to it.
25:44I wouldn't get rid of it for the world.
25:46But I always thought, OK, that's your life now, you know, two weeks of depression before your period.
25:51And I just never thought that was possible to get rid of.
25:53I thought, surely that is bipolar.
25:55You know, what goes up must come down.
25:57And that's my cycle every month.
25:58You're three times more likely to have PMDD with bipolar.
26:01So if you're someone with bipolar and like me, you're stable now, you know, there's not great underlying issues.
26:06I haven't confronted and I'm on the right medication.
26:09You can be stable with bipolar and not have depression for years.
26:12And I'd heard about men who go through 10 years of stability.
26:15I have a friend who's 80 living with bipolar and he's been stable for 15 years now.
26:20But I just thought as a woman, oh, I can't have what a man has with bipolar.
26:23Like I must have this flux of mood.
26:26But I'd really encourage people to look into how comorbid these two things are,
26:30because it does seem now that I do have that diagnosis and that issue was separate to my bipolar.
26:35So it's incredible that there's help out there and it's changed my life.
26:38That is so interesting to me because I've been writing about women's health for 10 years.
26:43And it was off the back of the fact that I was struggling with my own hormones.
26:46And I had a diagnosis of an anxiety disorder, which was then re-diagnosed as chronically low progesterone,
26:54which to me was fascinating.
26:56And then, you know, tried the HRT, tried all these different kinds of things.
27:00It is very interesting to me how these things are interlinked and how women's mental health and hormones are, you
27:06know, they're inseparable.
27:08But I'm really glad that you've been feeling better off the back of that because, you know, it's quite promising
27:14to know that
27:14if you are experiencing any kind of hormonal flux or, you know, some kind of deficit, you actually can get
27:22help for that.
27:22And, you know, it can actually be wonderful in terms of the result.
27:26Yeah, I think it's just crazy that for the past year I've sat at dinner with two male friends with
27:30bipolar.
27:31And, you know, they were both saying, oh, last year I didn't have a low.
27:35And I thought, oh, I could never have that.
27:37You know, my bipolar is highs and lows.
27:41It always has been.
27:42I didn't realize that that's my hormones and that, of course, if a man can be stable, woman can be
27:48stable.
27:48Yes, we have to take hormones, but it's possible.
27:51And it's just, yeah, it just needs to be spoken about.
27:54And, you know, I'm seven years into speaking about this publicly.
27:56And now this is a whole new area which I need to speak about if people are following me with
28:00bipolar.
28:01But because as women, we sort of just accept this second best approach that our mental health can never be
28:06really stable and really happy.
28:08Yeah, it's a real shame, isn't it?
28:12The idea that women weren't included in clinical trials because they didn't have a consistent baseline to be able to
28:19study because of a cycle that moved all the time.
28:21It's like, well, just study the cycle that moves all the time.
28:24Like, yeah, why not?
28:26Yeah.
28:26But I am I am really glad that that aspect of your mental health is something that you have been
28:31able to get some clarity on.
28:33Yeah.
28:33I mean, I'd love to ask you for some practical advice as well, because the work that you do with
28:38shining a light on every aspect of bipolar has been really helpful, I'm sure, for so many people.
28:43What advice would you give to someone who is maybe suspecting that this is something that's affecting them and they're
28:49kind of at the beginning of that journey?
28:50God, you know, I think back to pre-diagnosis and I remember there was a GP who suggested to me
28:56and my mom it was bipolar and we marched out.
28:59I had a panic attack and she said, don't call my daughter crazy.
29:02So the offense which was taken, I totally understand that.
29:07I've had two girlfriends in my life who I've seen bipolar is so obvious.
29:11One of them stopped speaking to me and the other one has never addressed it again and feels that she
29:18she's very holistic in terms of like her lifestyle and eating well.
29:22And I think she thinks it's something she can control through that.
29:25Maybe that's because I don't think it's type one.
29:27I think it's type two.
29:28But, you know, that level of offense people take, even with close friends, has not gone down well.
29:33And so I think it's a really difficult thing to first look into and not be offended.
29:38But that's why places like Substack, where women are writing about it in a really candid way, is a really
29:44lovely way to first look into it.
29:46I find these websites really overwhelming.
29:48Bipolar UK's website is brilliant in terms of like first steps.
29:51There's actually a test on their website at the moment, which is called the Maybe It's Bipolar Test.
29:57And it's a questionnaire and you fill it out and it's these little questions where you think you're just answering
30:02stuff which everyone knows.
30:03And you might get to the end and it might be bipolar, meaning that the five years you've just tried
30:08SSRIs and felt more anxious and depressed, you finally have access to a new medication.
30:12So I would start with that test, actually, and then go to find some cool women on Substack so that
30:19you realize you're one in 100.
30:21This is really normal.
30:22Those would be my two pieces of advice.
30:24That's great advice.
30:25I mean, do you do you engage quite closely with online communities?
30:28And has that helped you on your journey?
30:29Do you know what?
30:30I'm just getting into it.
30:31I find it really weird to read that other people have the same thing.
30:35Like I'm following a few girls on Substack and they've got like three followers and I found them.
30:39They're from like Arizona.
30:40I don't know how I found them, but they're saying exactly how I feel.
30:43And I'm like, that's still really wild to me.
30:45I actually engage a lot with I've got a girl's WhatsApp, which is now 15 of us.
30:50And it's all people who've DM me with bipolar who are in their 20s or 30s women.
30:56A few of them are London based and we've gone for the odd to shoot.
30:59Um, but I need a small group to engage in and we put questions in there and it's if you're
31:05feeling in a good mood, you'll join in.
31:06If you don't want to speak to anyone for three months, you don't have to.
31:09WhatsApp groups are really annoying like that, but also really brilliant.
31:12And I actually find it easier on a smaller scale rather than searching online and feeling quite overwhelmed.
31:17I'd rather go to that group of girls who I've sort of built up a relationship with, which is nice.
31:22Your advocacy has been much broader than that, though.
31:24And I want to talk a bit about your documentary because the documentary really shows, you know, through your voice,
31:31what it's like to live with this condition and what it can look like.
31:35And I think that was very different to what we've seen before.
31:38Um, how did that come about?
31:40God, nothing has ever fallen into my lap.
31:43I do go out my way to make these things happen.
31:45And as you should, that's good though.
31:47Yeah, I, so in lockdown, I had a quite a sort of manic high and I made a documentary.
31:54I went, oh my gosh, I can't see a young woman making a documentary.
31:57I'm going to make one.
31:58Seven thousand pounds in, in a very vulnerable state.
32:01I made a documentary, which was never to be seen, which I still might release.
32:05But, you know, there was someone who was making it with me, who saw how vulnerable I was with giving
32:10away my money and put this whole thing together.
32:13And then as that relationship became very clear, wasn't right.
32:16I sent a message to a producer at Channel 4 who I'd found on Instagram saying, I'd love a coffee.
32:22I've just gone into this documentary.
32:24I've made it 50% and I've run out of money, but please can I send you the footage?
32:29And he watched the footage and he went, okay, we need to meet tomorrow.
32:32Like there's something about this I've not seen before.
32:35So even though that never went to light of day and Channel 4, the way they work, you know, they
32:39commission a project.
32:40They put me with the director.
32:41They sort the whole thing out and they tell my story.
32:44It's still got my foot in the door with that channel.
32:46And we made that documentary in 2023 when I was sort of realizing that modeling was causing such big highs
32:52and lows.
32:53And so that footage is me in a really unstable period.
32:56The depression was so bad.
32:57The highs were not very high because I was on so much medication.
33:01So it was just a weird thing to film where I didn't have it all together yet.
33:05And I didn't really know what I was talking about.
33:08But it was very exposing in the perfect way in that I thought it wasn't extreme because I wasn't showing
33:14mania and I wasn't showing suicidal thoughts.
33:17But actually a lot of people with bipolar still don't reach those extremes until they go into crisis.
33:23And that's the portrayal people needed to see to go and see a GP.
33:27So it was the start of knowing I was in the right space and doing the right thing because I
33:31just had so many people message saying, oh, my gosh, I saw so much of myself in this footage.
33:36And, yeah, it was the best thing I've ever done.
33:38It was it was really challenging to film, but also really freeing, I think.
33:43Absolutely. I mean, it was great.
33:44And I do think that seeing more media like this is is what we need in order to make sure
33:51that if someone does receive a diagnosis or if a friend suggests, you know, have you thought about the fact
33:55that you might be bipolar?
33:56They wouldn't be offended.
33:58Yeah, I think that's the main thing.
34:00It's you take it as an offense and you take it that you've done something wrong.
34:03And I think, you know, anyone who has depression, you're in a monologue is saying you're a bad person.
34:08And so it felt very validating at first to get the diagnosis.
34:12I felt like all my worst fears came true by someone going, yeah, you are a bad person.
34:17And it's only through educating myself and meeting people with bipolar who are so compassionate, so empathetic, so hilarious.
34:24You know, life has to become quite funny when you thought you were Susan Boyle for a week like I
34:28did.
34:29And so I'm going to laugh at that.
34:31Yeah. I mean, my parents, my mom said she was really trying to keep a straight face, but she'd have
34:35to go off to the bathroom and just laugh to herself.
34:37Because when someone's in psychosis, you actually shouldn't challenge their reality.
34:42Because say if you're saying, you know, I'm Susan Boyle and I need to get back on stage and sing
34:45to Simon Cowell.
34:46If my mom had said, Rosie, you're called Rosie and you're in a psych ward.
34:51The fear when you're, it's not your reality that you've lost your mind is so unfair.
34:56We're actually a good supporting system would say, and what are you going to sing, Susan?
35:02Which my family had to do.
35:03What have you got for us, Susan?
35:04What have you got, Susan?
35:05What are you going to wear?
35:06It's a yes for me.
35:06And I'd be like, oh, I don't know.
35:08But yeah, it's just one of those things.
35:11You know, it's covered in a blanket of shame and you've really got to educate yourself to accept the diagnosis.
35:17And it's not a death sentence, but I'm really proud to have it now because of the community I get
35:22to be part of.
35:23It's incredible people.
35:24That positive lens, I think, is so essential.
35:27And you did write something, actually, on your sub stack about, I don't know whether my madness is madness or
35:33magic.
35:34And you mentioned that earlier.
35:35And I'd love to dig down on that a bit and ask you what you meant.
35:38And yeah, I guess when I found out it was bipolar, I knew something had been there.
35:43And I think I'd always had this sense of magic.
35:46I'd always believed in miracles.
35:47And I just had so many times in my life where I knew I wasn't feeling something normal.
35:53And it must have been hypermania.
35:54But I think when you're in those states, you're seeing the world from this magical point of view.
35:59Smells, sounds, human emotion.
36:02I can almost read people and what they're thinking and feeling.
36:06And so I always had this sense that there was something greater.
36:10And I saw miracles in life all the time.
36:13And I still have that incredibly positive viewpoint of the world, even when things are going so badly right now.
36:20My viewpoint is really magical.
36:22And I just focus on the good.
36:24And I just believe, I just have a huge sense of hope in life and in people.
36:28And I guess I don't focus on the bigger picture, which is negative.
36:32But I really noticed day to day in the people in the bus, like on my bus this morning, that's
36:37where my focus goes.
36:38And that feels magical.
36:39And it's like this warped perspective, which works in my favor, in that I always feel that there's a point
36:45in fighting for what's right.
36:47I feel like helping out one person is such a big deal.
36:52I don't get overwhelmed in a bad way.
36:55I feel, yeah, very lucky in that sense.
36:58And that luck is something I've now read a lot of people with bipolar have.
37:03And it's this sense of, like, it's a spiritual sense.
37:08I have to be careful what I say because I went into that dialogue and that's when I got sectioned.
37:12So that's where I find writing really interesting because I can get those thoughts out and just know that I
37:17can keep it to myself and slowly but surely share more about it because it's a part of bipolar, which
37:21is, yeah, I'm not spoken about enough, I don't think.
37:25I mean, it's deeply human though, isn't it?
37:27The balance between feeling blessed and feeling burdened is something that, to an extent, everyone is experiencing.
37:33And certainly in the wellness world, all I hear is people talking about how to tap in to that sense
37:40of awe or that sense of joy that you described really perfectly.
37:44So I guess, you know, reframing it in that positive way is almost like describing a state that we're all
37:51quite keen to get to.
37:52Yeah, it's just like, I think when you're hypermanic, you love to such a degree and the only time I've
37:59ever seen someone describe it loads is when astronauts go to out of space and they see the whole world
38:03and they come back down and they can't change that perspective of love.
38:07And I feel like I get that on a daily basis, sometimes when I'm high and, you know, you do
38:13feel like crying and you do feel euphoric and some days it's really a lot because I'm trying to just
38:18write an email about an event I'm producing tomorrow.
38:21And I think, I feel like I'm at the front stage of Glastonbury and I've taken God knows what.
38:25So it's like, yeah, it's, I mean, it's in, I mean, I found this out in my old job, but
38:31bipolar is a disability and I can understand why, because I would love to go up to the person at
38:37the front of Glastonbury and say, would you like to write the 10 emails you have to do at work
38:41today?
38:41It's really hard, actually.
38:44It's really hard to manage this.
38:45So, yeah, it's just something which needs to be discussed more so people feel normal that that happens to them
38:52on a weekly basis.
38:53Absolutely.
38:53And I think you're doing a brilliant job of normalising it and getting people to talk about it more.
38:58I certainly would recommend that everyone read your book.
39:01Oh, thank you.
39:02I do want to ask you for one final piece of advice as well.
39:05I ask all of my guests on the podcast what their one tip for feeling well enough is.
39:09So not perfect, but good enough.
39:12What would yours be?
39:14My tip, which has helped me get back into socialising and get my life back, but keep well, is never
39:21drink two nights in a row.
39:23So when you are on medication for your mental health, if you're drinking, it also affects how well your medication
39:30works.
39:31And I think for a few years I was grieving joining in in that sense.
39:34And I thought, oh, you know, if I have a mental illness, I can't drink again.
39:37But I love just one Negroni or a glass of wine.
39:39I'm not a big drinker, but I do love it.
39:40And I got back into it and obviously I went full steam ahead and was drinking five nights again.
39:45And then I was always depressed.
39:47But I have found that one full reset of going to bed at nine, not drinking, being really strict does
39:53mean that you can stagger it and maybe drink the first, you know, a Friday night and a Sunday night
39:58when you're on holiday.
40:00And that's my best piece of advice for anyone who wants to join in again.
40:04Never, ever do two days because it never works.
40:06Two days in a row is two bad nights sleep, two nights where your medication doesn't work as well.
40:11And you might create this impression that you can't join in in that way.
40:15And I just that's worked for me so strongly.
40:19And I know on holiday it's difficult to say tonight I'm not drinking, but it's my best piece of advice
40:24I give to anyone who's trying to find a balance.
40:26It's really changed being able to join in again in that sense.
40:29That's great.
40:30I mean, I think as well, all the insights you've given on what it's like to take medication, you know,
40:34tips that people might not think about.
40:36It's really hard sometimes to find that very specific information.
40:40You know, you can look at charity websites, you can look at the NHS, but unless you're in a group
40:44chat with other people or listening to a podcast like this, you're not going to get that.
40:48So thank you for sharing that.
40:49It was really, really great.
40:50Thank you for having me.
40:50Thank you so much for joining me for Well Enough.
40:52Thanks so much to Rosie for joining me today.
40:55If you enjoyed this episode, why not listen to this conversation with psychotherapist Anna Mather and mental health campaigner Dr.
41:02Alex George, all about finding happiness.
41:04Thanks again for joining us for this episode of Well Enough.
41:07We'll see you next time.
41:08And in the meantime, stay well.
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