00:00I was in Kyiv four years ago when large-scale war started. I refused to evacuate and with
00:05a part of my team we continued our work on the ground. And when the Russian army was pushed
00:11from Kyiv region, we immediately sent mobiles groups to Bucha, to Matyzin, to Erpin, to Vorzel,
00:18to other cities and settlements in Kyiv region. And we were shocked because we found dead bodies
00:25of civilians who lay scattered around the streets until their liberation. We found dead bodies of
00:31civilians in the gardens of their own households. We found dead bodies of civilians in mass graves,
00:38men and women with their hands tied under their back. We found dead bodies of civilians in cars,
00:46the whole family with children who were deliberately shot while they just trying to escape from the
00:52dangerous zone. So this was Bucha for me and my memory. Yeah, it's a terrible account. You have
01:03spoken of a painful gap between what has been documented among other organizations by yours,
01:09of course, and what has been prosecuted. What's keeping that evidence from reaching the courtroom
01:15and whose responsibility do you think it is to close that gap you speak of?
01:21We face with accountability gap which has several dimensions. The first is connected with an enormous
01:28amount of crimes which we are documenting because Russia uses war crimes as a method of warfare. So
01:38Russian soldiers are deliberately inflicted immense pain on civilians and committing murder, rape,
01:46torture and other kinds of crimes. It's just a tool how to break people's resistance and occupy the country.
01:54And it's difficult to investigate such a huge amount of crimes during the war, even for the best national
02:02system in the world. Ukraine hasn't the best national system in the world. We need international support to do it.
02:11And the second gap is the case that there is no international court that can prosecute Putin and his
02:19surroundings for the crime of aggression. Even international criminal court in the Hague have no such jurisdiction.
02:25The Council of Europe, very aware of that, working together with Ukraine is trying to establish a special
02:32tribunal for the crime of aggression against Ukraine. Does that give you hope?
02:38Yes, it was a revolutionary decision which the Council of Europe made last June to establish a special
02:45tribunal on aggression and to fill this gap. Because why it's important, all international crimes that we
02:53are documenting, it's a result of the leadership decision of Putin and his surroundings to break the
02:59peace and to start this bloody war. But almost a year has passed and just five countries have joined to
03:07special tribunal on aggression. And we are waiting when Germany, when other countries will join to this
03:16court, because it's not Putin who prevent this to happen. It's a question of historical responsibility
03:24and courage of European leadership. Moscow has already announced that it will reject the body's
03:31legitimacy and consider participation in a hostile act. Does that mean in a way that the tribunal is
03:37doomed to fail or how could it still fulfill its mission? Moscow can reject reality, but it doesn't mean that
03:46we have to do nothing. Moscow will ignore all decisions of international organizations and break
03:54all provisions of international law. So there is no surprise in such attitude of Moscow to special
04:03tribunal on aggression. The surprise for me is this delay. Once again, I don't understand why Germany,
04:10why other countries are not still there. When you speak to survivors from Bucha directly, what do they
04:18tell you about what justice means to them? I spoke with people affected by this war directly multiple times,
04:28and I know that they see justice very differently. For some people, justice means to see their perpetrators
04:35behind the bars. For another people, justice means to get compensations. And without compensations, they will
04:42feel unsatisfied. For some people, justice means just to know truth, what happened with their beloved
04:49ones. For another people, justice means a possibility to be publicly heard and to get this public recognition
04:57that something would happen with them and their families. It's not just immoral, but also illegal. And we need
05:04to build a comprehensive justice strategy to reach all these needs. U.S. President Donald Trump ran
05:11on the promise of ending the war on day one of his return to the White House. And you have
05:16fiercely
05:16criticized leaked U.S.-Russian peace proposals that include amnesties for war crimes. And you've warned
05:23that this would embolden aggressors around the world. Where would or what would an agreement of that sort
05:32mean to you if it really came to pass and be part of a peace deal for Ukraine?
05:38We have no illusion. Justice is not a value for United States administration. As well, it's very naive to
05:47think that Russia will sign any peace treaty with a point or with accountability. So our goal is clear. We
05:55have
05:55to make justice as independent international parallel track to all peace negotiation process. What do I
06:03mean? International Criminal Court don't care what will be in peace treaty. International Criminal Court
06:10will not stop its investigation, will not withdraw its arrest warrants. So our task is, while we still
06:18have window of opportunity, to create several more such international institutions like
06:23special tribunal and aggression, international registry of damage and to confiscate Russian frozen assets
06:31because justice has also financial side and people need compensations for crimes that Russia committed.
06:38There's Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aleksandra Madvychuk. Thank you so much for your time. All the best to you.
06:44Thanks.
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