- 19 hours ago
In this exclusive interview, Palestine’s Ambassador to India H.E. Abdallah M. Abu Shawesh shares the Palestinian perspective on the ongoing Gaza humanitarian crisis, the Israel-Iran-US conflict, resistance vs diplomacy, Hamas disarmament, West Bank settlements, and India’s balancing act between Israel and Palestine. The Ambassador discusses peaceful Gandhi-style resistance, ethnic cleansing claims, the future of Gaza, and urges India to use its strong leverage for a two-state solution.
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NewsTranscript
00:03How would you characterize the growing reliance on the military power or the military forces instead of diplomacy?
00:12Conflict, it's a military aggression launched by the United States of America and Israel against the Republic of Iran. This
00:19is a factual issue.
00:24They will continue to believe, as I already mentioned, that what is not solved by power gives it more power.
00:34The one who refused that is the Israeli themselves and the Israeli government and the Israeli current prime minister.
00:47What are your concerns moving forward about the future of Gaza?
00:51No one is safe until everyone is safe.
01:08Today, we are being joined by Palestine's ambassador to India, Abdullah M. Abu Shahwaj.
01:14In this exclusive interview, we will discuss about the humanitarian situation.
01:19We will discuss about the prospects for peace and Palestine's perspective on resistance and at the same time diplomacy.
01:29Thank you, Ambassador, for joining us today for this exclusive interview.
01:34First and foremost, I would like to understand from you, how has this ongoing conflict of Iran, Israel and the
01:42United States, how has that affected the Palestine's cause?
01:48Thank you so much indeed for having me and it's always good to be with the Indian media and it
01:56might be always good to be on the screens to tell part of our stories.
02:02But back to your very important question, once you mentioned that the conflict, it's not a conflict, it's well known
02:11worldwide, it's an occupation, it's an Israeli.
02:17And if you go back to what is going right now, I mean between U.S.-Israel from one side and
02:26Iran from the other side, I think it's again not conflict, it's U.S.-Israel military aggression against Iran, not otherwise.
02:39But I'm back to, again, I'm going to leave it to you now to be more specific if there is
02:47something you would like me to shed light on it.
02:51If we are talking about being specific, now that we are on the issue of the Israel-Iran war or
03:00the conflict at the same time that I've mentioned,
03:03how would you characterize the growing reliance on the military power or the military forces instead of diplomacy in these
03:13international conflicts or to say in situations like these?
03:19Again, you're back to use the same exact words that I cannot, as ambassador of Palestine, to agree on it.
03:25I did not blame you, of course, when you mentioned conflict.
03:29It's not a conflict, it's a military aggression launched by the United States of America and Israel against the Republic
03:36of Iran.
03:37This is a factual issue, we cannot, because, you know, wording has a meaning.
03:44I think this is so important for us, not only as a Palestinian, but as people who are believing of
03:51the international law and the multilateral diplomacy to shed light or to stress on the exact wording.
03:59But when it came to the aggression, this military aggression, I think it came out from the U.S.-Israel believing
04:08of the logic of power, not the power of logic.
04:11It came out from their belief that the multilateralism is not sufficient for them and they can solve their problem
04:18with only using the power.
04:20And a problem, according to Israel, at least, how did we experience them long time ago, they believe that what
04:29is not solved by power, give it more power, it will be solved.
04:33So this is the main issue.
04:35Unfortunately, this war, this military aggression is another nail or might be the very last nail in the coven of
04:43the international multilateralism, in the international cooperation to solve our problem and in peaceful resolution through the multilateral institutions, such
04:57as the United States, United Nations, United Nations General Assembly, United Nations Security Council.
05:04So unfortunately, this is the exact situation and it should be the exact wording that we as rational human beings,
05:14we should use.
05:16Ambassador, now coming back to the Palestine concern, if we go back to the early stages of the Gaza conflict,
05:25do you think when it comes to Israel, did they have other options besides going for a full-fledged military
05:31action
05:32that they eventually went ahead with?
05:37Since even before the establishment of the state of Israel and the expelling of the Palestinian people from there and
05:43the ethnic cleansing that we endured and the expelling of us from our homeland,
05:47the main issue that they used to believe and still unfortunately, it seems that they will continue to believe, as
05:55I already mentioned, that what is not solved by power, give it more power.
06:00So that this is the beliefs of Israel, so that every time we, the Palestinians used to talk about peace,
06:07they used to talk about military and only military aggression, incubation,
06:11trenching the incubation, expanding of the illegal Israeli settlement and all of this stuff.
06:21So that this is the intention of Israel.
06:25Ambassador, if we talk about groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, which are also backed by Iran, what is the stance
06:34of Palestine,
06:39specifically into the context of resistance against Israel?
06:44Where does Palestine stand here?
06:47You are talking about three main pillars in this particular question.
06:52The first pillar is whether Hamas is backed by Iran.
06:56Absolutely, Hamas is backed by Iran.
06:58But the most important issue that no one knows it, and I'm pretty sure that you as expert journalists, I'm
07:04pretty sure that you know it and you can also find it.
07:08It's in Google.
07:09Hamas was backed and created by Israel and utterly, completely, totally was backed by the current fidgetive from Justice, the
07:17Israeli prime minister himself,
07:19to October 6th, 2023.
07:22Hamas was fully, fully, fully backed by Israel and the current, again, fidgetive from Justice, the Israeli prime minister.
07:29Hamas was backed by Israel when Israel used to facilitate and allow the Qatarian money, billions of dollars of the
07:37Qatarian money,
07:38to go to Hamas, through Israel and through the permission of the Israeli security and Israeli prime minister himself.
07:47The other pillar of that, yes, we as a Palestinian national authority, we had and will continue to have one
07:54declared and one cluster clear position.
07:59We are calling for all the non-state actors, Palestinian non-state actors, who need to be disarmed.
08:08We are calling for one state, one government, one security weapons, one law, when everything should be one.
08:17The one who refused that is the Israeli themselves and the Israeli government and the Israeli current prime minister himself.
08:26This is our opinion regarding the resistance.
08:32Yes, we, the Palestinians, continue, used to, continue, and used to, still, and will continue to believe of the resistance.
08:39But we, in the Palestinian authority, adopted the Mahatma Gandhi method of resistance,
08:46which means a fully peaceful resistance to the Israeli brutal occupation.
08:54Unfortunately, this peaceful method of resistance of the Israeli occupation, that we will continue to adopt it and to incubate
09:01it,
09:02had been met with a fully neglectance, had been met from the Israeli side,
09:09with expansion of the settlement, with thousands of people.
09:14Even in West Bank, not only in Gaza, had been ethnically cleansed.
09:18And the vast majority of West Bank right now is already, there is no place.
09:24More than 60% of the West Bank had 0% of the Palestinian people, whom was expelled and technically
09:31cleansed from.
09:34Ambassador, geopolitically, so much has been happening from the last few months.
09:39March has been a very, very focal point when it comes to that.
09:42So, when we talk about everything that has been happening geopolitically,
09:48what are your concerns moving forward about the future of Gaza,
09:52at the same time, the people of Palestine,
09:55with regards to everything that has been going under when it comes to the actions taken by Israel?
10:02What are your concerns?
10:04When we talk about the future of Gaza,
10:07as a Palestinian national authority,
10:10as a Palestinian responsible politician,
10:12we used to talk about the future of the Palestinian people,
10:15the future of the Palestinian and Israeli people,
10:17to be very in control.
10:19I mean, at large,
10:22because no one is safe until everyone is safe.
10:25If the Palestinian is not safe,
10:27this did not mean that.
10:28This for sure did not mean,
10:29this for sure mean that the Israeli themselves will not be safe,
10:33even with all the devastating power that they had,
10:36the tremendous amount,
10:38the tremendous and different power they have,
10:41the military power,
10:42I mean financial power,
10:44but still the Israeli, unfortunately,
10:46and we as a Palestinian,
10:47unfortunately,
10:48both of us is not feeling safe,
10:50so that when we talk,
10:52when we tackle this issue,
10:54we as a Palestinian,
10:56Russian people cannot talk about the future of Gaza alone.
10:59We are talking about the future of the people,
11:02the whole entire people,
11:03Palestinian, Israeli,
11:04between the river and the sea.
11:06And this is a collective and all a collective manner.
11:09This is a very human manner
11:11that we call our Israeli neighbor to think of it.
11:16And we will continue to talk about it
11:18because we believe that we are Russian people.
11:21But when it came to Gaza itself,
11:23unfortunately,
11:24the main goal behind the genocidal war
11:27that had been launched since more than two and a half years,
11:31and is still ongoing right now,
11:32is to expel the Palestinian people.
11:35This is a declared goal,
11:36not only by the Israeli,
11:38even the President Trump himself,
11:40since the very beginning,
11:41he assumed his office,
11:43he spoke about converting Gaza to,
11:46you know,
11:47he treated Gaza as a real estate entity,
11:52and when they asked him about the people of Gaza,
11:55he said that they should be left to Egypt and Jordan.
12:00And this is not the plan.
12:03You rightly know that.
12:05This is an ethnically cleansing.
12:07I think this is a war crime declaration
12:10from the American and the Israelis.
12:12Unfortunately,
12:13the future of Gaza is still at the hands of the people
12:16whom has destroyed Gaza.
12:19When I say people whom has destroyed Gaza,
12:21I mean the Israeli and the American.
12:23America was part of the mass destruction
12:25or the whole entire destruction of Gaza.
12:27Then you need to know that
12:30when we talk about the future of Gaza
12:32at the hands of the Board of Peace,
12:35one of the member of the Board of Peace,
12:36the fidgetable from Justice,
12:38the Israeli Prime Minister,
12:39or Israel,
12:41is the part of the Board of Peace.
12:43What type of Board of Peace,
12:44what type of peace,
12:46what type of future
12:47that will Gaza endure
12:50as long as the structure of Gaza
12:54is a member of this world.
12:57When we talk about Gaza
12:59and the future of Gaza,
13:00we should take it also
13:02the future of West Bank.
13:03I'm pretty sure that you do not know
13:05that we and the Palestinian people
13:08in West Bank
13:08are enduring in a daily pace,
13:10in a daily pace,
13:11and I would like to stress on it,
13:13in a daily pace,
13:14enduring
13:16tens of thousands,
13:17tens of,
13:18tens of
13:21terror attacks
13:22by the Jewish citizens
13:23in West Bank itself.
13:25You did not know,
13:26you might not know,
13:27and your audience
13:28might not know
13:29that we and the Palestinian Authority
13:31had enduring
13:32since more than five years,
13:34three years before
13:35even the war on Gaza.
13:40Israel, I mean,
13:41Israel is withholding
13:43our tax money,
13:45just the salaries.
13:47My personal,
13:48my,
13:49and of course,
13:50all the official employees
13:52in the Palestinian government.
13:54The very last full salary
13:56that we received
13:56was in November
14:002021.
14:01Up today,
14:02just a few days ago,
14:04we had got
14:0450% of
14:06our
14:08January salary,
14:09which means that
14:10we are enduring
14:11another devastating situation.
14:12When we talk about
14:13the future,
14:14we should,
14:15as a Palestinian,
14:16as Israeli,
14:16Russian and Israeli,
14:17and today
14:18in Israel,
14:19there is not,
14:20not that much
14:21of the Russian
14:22politician.
14:24Today,
14:25Israel is governed
14:26and ruled
14:26by the messianic,
14:28the fanatic,
14:29the
14:32leaders
14:33who's just believing
14:34of,
14:35could you imagine
14:35in the 21st century,
14:38someone is believing
14:38that he's the supreme,
14:40believing of his,
14:41because his ethnicity
14:42so that he's
14:43above all,
14:44he's,
14:45still,
14:46they still believe
14:46that they are
14:47the chosen people,
14:48the selective people,
14:49the child of God
14:50and all of this stuff.
14:52This is something
14:52that,
14:53which is going against,
14:54of course,
14:55analogic and
14:55erasimality,
14:56but still,
14:57those people
14:57who is leading
14:58Israel today,
15:00unfortunately,
15:02did not talk
15:03about peace,
15:04did not talk
15:04about the future.
15:06No,
15:06not only this,
15:07just yesterday,
15:08yesterday,
15:09one of those
15:09fanatic messianic
15:10leaders in Israel
15:12was calling
15:12for the occupation,
15:14cubying
15:15South Lebanon
15:16approximately 700
15:17square kilometer
15:19of Lebanon
15:20and all the
15:22southern area
15:23of the Tani
15:24to be added
15:25to Israel.
15:27So,
15:27this is the situation
15:28and this is,
15:29unfortunately,
15:30with those people,
15:31we find ourselves
15:33stuck
15:34with our future.
15:37Ambassador,
15:38moving forward,
15:39when it comes
15:39to India,
15:41India shares
15:42a very good
15:43relationship,
15:44it has good ties
15:45with both
15:46Israel and Palestine.
15:48In that case,
15:49how do you view
15:51this balancing act
15:52of New Delhi?
15:54What are your views
15:55on that?
15:56Once we talk
15:58about the history
16:00between India,
16:01of course,
16:02and Palestine,
16:05it is important
16:06to recall
16:07the historical route
16:08between India
16:10and Palestine
16:10and I used
16:11to start
16:12and I love
16:13always to start
16:14by the ties
16:15was between
16:16India and Palestine.
16:17India,
16:18when it was
16:19under the
16:20United Kingdom
16:24rule,
16:24when the United Kingdom
16:27you did not use
16:29the word incubation
16:30because we are
16:30familiar with
16:31the word incubation
16:32as Palestinian,
16:33you used to
16:33call it colonization.
16:35When India
16:36was a colony
16:38of United Kingdom,
16:41thousands of
16:41Indian
16:42owners and
16:43soldiers
16:43who were
16:45enlisted
16:46in the
16:47imperial army
16:48was part
16:49of the
16:49fighting
16:50in the land
16:51of Palestine,
16:53Egypt,
16:54Syria,
16:55and all
16:56of these
16:56areas
16:56which was
16:57at that
16:58time
16:58I mean
17:00during the
17:01First World
17:02War
17:02under the
17:04Uthmani
17:04Empire,
17:05ruled by
17:06the Uthmani
17:07so that
17:08the Indian
17:09people
17:09at that
17:10time
17:11whom was
17:11part of
17:12the imperial
17:14service
17:15was
17:17fight
17:18and fought
17:19and killed
17:20at the
17:20land of
17:21Palestine
17:21and one
17:22of the
17:22main
17:23battles
17:23that had
17:24been there
17:24unfortunately
17:25is Haifa
17:26battle
17:26where the
17:27British
17:27put the
17:28Indian
17:28soldiers
17:30at the
17:30front
17:30and many
17:31of them
17:31unfortunately
17:32killed in
17:331918
17:34and still
17:35in Palestine
17:36more than
17:37900 Indian
17:38soldiers
17:39have been
17:39buried there
17:40before 1948
17:42during the
17:42First World
17:43War
17:44and I
17:45think
17:45yes during
17:46the First
17:47World War
17:47at that
17:48time
17:49many of
17:50those Indians
17:50were buried
17:52and still
17:52there
17:53so that
17:53the ties
17:53between
17:54Indian
17:55people
17:55and the
17:56Palestinian
17:57people
17:57was
17:57started
17:58it's another
18:00remarkable
18:02juncture
18:03or another
18:04remarkable
18:07time
18:08I mean
18:081918
18:12and still
18:14since that
18:15time
18:15and up
18:16today
18:17the
18:18relation
18:19between
18:19Palestine
18:19and India
18:20is good
18:21and very
18:21strong
18:22and good
18:24of course
18:24the Lady
18:26Great
18:26Mahatma Gandhi
18:27refused
18:27the
18:31partitioning
18:31plan
18:32of Palestine
18:32and that
18:33the British
18:34at that
18:34time
18:34that
18:35Palestine
18:36belonged to
18:36the
18:36Palestinian
18:37people
18:38likewise
18:38the United
18:39Kingdom
18:39belonged to
18:40the British
18:40people
18:41and India
18:42was the
18:42very first
18:43one to
18:43recognize
18:44one of
18:44the very
18:45first
18:45country
18:46to
18:46recognize
18:48Palestine
18:49Liberation
18:49Organization
18:50as the
18:51sole
18:51and legitimate
18:53representative
18:54of the
18:54Palestinian
18:54people
18:55also
18:57India
18:58was one
18:58of the
18:59very first
18:59country
18:59to recognize
19:00the state
19:01of Palestine
19:01India
19:02understood
19:02heavily
19:03in the
19:03peace
19:04process
19:05but again
19:06this is
19:07regarding
19:07the history
19:08and we
19:09and I
19:10used to
19:10discuss
19:10this
19:11and I
19:11used to
19:11say it
19:12loud
19:12and declare
19:12India
19:13having a
19:13very strong
19:14political
19:15leverage
19:15over
19:16Israel
19:16and over
19:16the
19:17Palestinian
19:17people
19:17India
19:18is the
19:19largest
19:21democracy
19:21at the
19:22world
19:22India
19:22is the
19:23fourth
19:23economy
19:24worldwide
19:25India
19:25is the
19:26one of
19:26the
19:27I mean
19:28the population
19:29India
19:29the size
19:30of India
19:31which means
19:31that India
19:32can do
19:33something
19:33also more
19:34very significant
19:35and we
19:36look forward
19:37to India
19:37to play
19:38another
19:39or to
19:40take
19:41more
19:42stronger
19:43step
19:43towards
19:44this
19:45process
19:45and
19:46the
19:47limitation
19:48of the
19:48two
19:48states
19:50ambassador
19:51whenever
19:52a war
19:53or a
19:54conflict
19:54of this
19:55level
19:56takes
19:56place
19:56humanitarian
19:57crisis
19:58becomes
19:58one of
19:59the
19:59major
19:59concerns
20:00when it
20:01comes to
20:01Palestine
20:01how serious
20:03is the
20:03humanitarian
20:04crisis
20:06unfortunately
20:07here we
20:07are again
20:08when it
20:09came to
20:10the
20:10again
20:11I cannot
20:12agree
20:12I know
20:13that you
20:14are a
20:14journalist
20:15and sometimes
20:15you need
20:16to use
20:18neutral
20:18wording
20:19but this
20:19is a
20:20brutal
20:20Israeli
20:21occupation
20:22a war
20:24and
20:24genocidal
20:25war
20:25in Gaza
20:26so all
20:26of these
20:27terms
20:27and wording
20:28have a
20:28meaning
20:28for us
20:29but back
20:30to the
20:30humanitarian
20:31situation
20:31again
20:32unfortunately
20:33here we
20:34are
20:34we found
20:35ourselves
20:35all the
20:36times
20:36talking about
20:37the
20:37humanitarian
20:37situation
20:38which means
20:39that we
20:39are talking
20:40about the
20:40symptom
20:41of the
20:41genocidal
20:42war
20:42not the
20:43root
20:43of the
20:43genocidal
20:44war
20:44and when
20:46we want
20:46to solve
20:47any problem
20:47we should
20:48take it
20:48from its
20:49roots
20:50itself
20:52as the
20:53says
20:53goes
20:53if you
20:54want to
20:55root
20:56symptom
20:56analysis
20:56or
20:57take the
20:58bullet
20:59from the
20:59horn
21:00to solve
21:02any
21:02problem
21:03unfortunately
21:04Israel
21:05and it
21:06is of
21:06course
21:08ectobistic
21:11media arms
21:13especially
21:14the vast
21:15majority
21:15of the
21:16control
21:16with
21:16western
21:17media
21:19entities
21:20which
21:20is trying
21:21to
21:21portray
21:22the
21:23situation
21:23as if
21:24it is
21:24just a
21:25humanitarian
21:25situation
21:26that can
21:28be solved
21:28with
21:29more flour
21:30more
21:30sugar
21:31and more
21:34humanitarian
21:34which is
21:35not the
21:36case
21:36it's a
21:37political
21:37issue
21:38and if
21:38we want
21:39to
21:39tackle it
21:39we should
21:40tackle it
21:40from its
21:41root
21:41the Israeli
21:42occupation
21:43that
21:43was
21:44started
21:45in
21:461967
21:46it
21:48was
21:48it
21:49is also
21:50a
21:50nekba
21:51the
21:51catastrophe
21:52that the
21:52Palestinians
21:53endured
21:53in 1948
21:55when Israel
21:56was established
21:56and we
21:57had been
21:57ethnically
21:58cleansed
21:59from our
21:59homeland
22:00it was
22:01also
22:02and will
22:02continue
22:03to be
22:03the root
22:04of this
22:04chronic
22:05issue
22:06that we
22:06are
22:07or our
22:07misery
22:08was
22:08from
22:09the
22:10United
22:10Kingdom
22:111917
22:12when the
22:13British
22:13issued
22:14the bill
22:14for
22:14declaration
22:15and this
22:16declaration
22:17they
22:17gifted
22:18they
22:18pledged
22:19our
22:19homeland
22:20our
22:20homeland
22:21to the
22:22European
22:22Jewish
22:23this is
22:23the root
22:24of the
22:24issue
22:24without
22:25tackling
22:25all of
22:26these
22:26roots
22:26we will
22:27continue
22:27to talk
22:28about
22:28one
22:29trucks
22:3010
22:30trucks
22:3020
22:31trucks
22:31of
22:31humanitarian
22:32aid
22:32this is
22:33a
22:33painkiller
22:34there is
22:35a
22:35cancer
22:36there is
22:36a
22:36trauma
22:37called
22:37Israeli
22:38occupation
22:38we should
22:39tackle it
22:40from its
22:40root
22:41we should
22:41go in
22:42a deep
22:43and real
22:44surgery
22:45to cut
22:46to remove
22:47to eliminate
22:48this trauma
22:49which called
22:50the Israeli
22:51occupation
22:52and we should
22:54stop thinking
22:54as international
22:55community
22:56to be
22:56or to
22:57give more
22:58painkiller
22:59and anesthesia
23:00last question
23:02to your
23:02ambassador
23:02how do you
23:03respond to
23:04the calls
23:04for Hamas
23:05to fully
23:06disarm
23:06what are your
23:07opinions on
23:08this
23:09this is
23:10our
23:10official
23:11position
23:11as a
23:11Palestinian
23:12liberation
23:13organization
23:14as a
23:14Palestinian
23:15authority
23:15and this
23:16is our
23:16official
23:17position
23:17long time
23:18ago
23:19when we
23:20raised the
23:21slogan
23:21one law
23:22one government
23:23one
23:26security
23:27arms
23:28and all
23:28of this
23:29this is our
23:29official position
23:30that declared
23:31but the
23:32one who
23:32refused it
23:33the one
23:33who was
23:33supported
23:34Hamas
23:35to become
23:35a strong
23:36military
23:38fraction
23:39was Israel
23:40the current
23:40fugitive from
23:41justice
23:41in particular
23:42the current
23:43fugitive from
23:44justice
23:45the Israeli
23:45prime minister
23:46himself
23:47so that
23:47when it came
23:48to the
23:49disarmament
23:50this is our
23:50official
23:51position
23:51every non-state
23:54entities
23:55in Palestine
23:56should be
23:57should not
23:59be
23:59should be a
24:00political
24:00of course
24:02non-state
24:03actors
24:03should be a
24:04political
24:04faction
24:05but no one of
24:06them should
24:07carry any
24:08single
24:08bullet
24:09this is our
24:10official
24:10position
24:11was still
24:12and will
24:12continue
24:13unfortunately
24:13we had
24:14been
24:15this
24:16position
24:18or the
24:18official
24:18position
24:19had been
24:19contradicted
24:20by again
24:21and again
24:22and again
24:22by Israel
24:23and in
24:24particular
24:24the current
24:25Israeli prime
24:27minister
24:27the current
24:28fugitive from
24:29justice
24:29the Israeli
24:30prime minister
24:31thank you so
24:32much ambassador
24:33for your
24:34candid views
24:35and insights
24:36on this
24:36we really
24:37appreciate the
24:38time
24:38thank you so
24:39much for
24:39this
24:39sure
24:40much
24:41appreciation
24:41thank you
24:42so much
24:42for having
24:42you
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