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00:00:04I would now like to introduce our chief guest for today Mr. Acharya Prashant ji.
00:00:11Mr. Acharya Prashant ji is a contemporary teacher, philosopher and author of wisdom literature
00:00:17and the founder of the Prashant Advait Foundation.
00:00:20Now I would like to introduce Professor Trilochan Shastri.
00:00:23Joining SIRD in today's conversation, Professor Shastri is a post-abitech from IIT Delhi,
00:00:31an MBA from IIM Ahmedabad, a PhD from MIT and has been associated with IIM Bangalore for over two decades.
00:00:37Now I would like to introduce the moderator for today's conversation, Professor Manaswini Bhalla.
00:00:43Ma'am is the chairperson of the postgraduate program at IIM Bangalore.
00:00:51It's a pleasure to be sitting and to witness as a student of Vedanta, the interaction between these two stalwarts.
00:01:00The question is, have you ever found any leaders or practitioners who have some tips and tools to figure out
00:01:07what is their swadharma?
00:01:09Swadharm is like medicine. Even a medicine needs a sick one. So swadharm is for the diluted one.
00:01:16We pretend to do some social work because I think that is my swadharma.
00:01:20Now what I wanted to say about swadharma is that
00:01:24I do not know who I am, therefore I do not know what I ought to do, therefore I just
00:01:29pick that idea from here and there
00:01:32or I allow that idea to be implanted within.
00:01:36How can I be a puppet being controlled by unseen puppeteers and so many of them?
00:01:42I only teach a few students. Many people, many of the students are very interested because they have never heard
00:01:48of this.
00:01:49Once they hear of it, they get interested. So one is lack of information and I think people like him
00:01:54are spreading that information on a massive scale.
00:01:57I personally feel that those who have been able to live that kind of life personally, they alone should go
00:02:06around talking about it.
00:02:14Otherwise, hundreds of people are going around on YouTube, here and there,
00:02:19confusing themselves and other people. This should not be appreciated.
00:02:23This should not be appreciated.
00:02:31Good evening, everybody. The most important conversations we have are often the ones we have with ourselves.
00:02:37I welcome all of you here today to IIM Bangalore. I would now like to introduce our chief guest for
00:02:43today, Mr. Acharya Prashantji.
00:02:45Mr. Acharya Prashantji is a contemporary teacher, philosopher and author of wisdom literature and the founder of the Prashant Advait
00:02:54Foundation.
00:02:55An alumnus of IIT Delhi and IIM Ahmedabad, he has authored over 160 books, many of them national bestsellers.
00:03:03Published by Leading Houses, he is widely regarded as the world's most followed spiritual leader.
00:03:09His work goes beyond spiritual literature to offer sharp, rational perspectives on social, environmental and ethical questions,
00:03:17providing both intellectual and spiritual clarity to modern seekers.
00:03:22Among his many recognitions are the outstanding contribution to National Development Award by the IIT Delhi Alumni Association,
00:03:30the Most Pulled Environmentalist Award by the Green Society of India and PETA's Most Influential Vegan of the Year Award.
00:03:37Acharya Prashantji, thank you so much for being with us over here today. We are honored to have you with
00:03:43us.
00:03:45Now, I would like to introduce Professor Trilochan Shastri.
00:03:49Joining SIRD in today's conversation, Professor Shastri holds a B-Tech from IIT Delhi, an MBA from IIM Ahmedabad,
00:03:57a PhD from MIT and has been associated with IIM Bangalore for over two decades.
00:04:02Over the years, Professor has played a significant role in shaping IIMB as an institution, serving in senior leadership positions,
00:04:09including as Dean.
00:04:10His academic work and teaching spans ethics, governance, decision sciences and public policy,
00:04:17with consistent focus on accountability and responsible leadership.
00:04:20Beyond the classroom, Professor has been deeply involved in translating academic thinking into real-world impact,
00:04:27particularly in areas such as agriculture, rural development and collective action.
00:04:32Professor, thank you so much for being here with us today evening.
00:04:39Now, I would like to introduce the moderator for today's conversation, Professor Manaswini Bhalla.
00:04:45Ma'am is the chairperson of the postgraduate programme at IIM Bangalore and has played a central role in shaping
00:04:51the PGP experience at IIMB
00:04:53with academic interests spanning economics, strategy and decision making.
00:04:58Thank you so much for being here today and moderating the conversation.
00:05:03Now, with the introduction of our three guests here today, I invite our speakers on stage for what promises to
00:05:09be a thoughtful and reflective discussion.
00:05:20A very warm welcome to all of you.
00:05:23And it's a pleasure to see the house full.
00:05:26All thanks to Achareji.
00:05:28Welcome again.
00:05:30And we look forward to this interaction.
00:05:33So, today we are very happy to have Professor Shastri, who happens to be Achareji's teacher at IIMB.
00:05:41So, it's a pleasure to be sitting and to witness as a student of Vedanta, the interaction between these two
00:05:49stalwarts,
00:05:50who have been studying and propagating Vedanta Cross.
00:05:54So, Achareji, I will begin with you on a slightly personal note.
00:05:58You've been a part of, you've been a student of two big institutions, where students in India crave to be
00:06:05a part of IIT and IIMB.
00:06:08Most of the journey there is about the world outside, journey outside.
00:06:12If there is a journey, then there is someone who is journeying, the walker, the traveller.
00:06:21And the journey obviously is for the sake of the journeyman, the traveller.
00:06:36Now, basic honesty or common sense, it demands that I know why I am walking a certain road, why I
00:06:49am choosing a certain destination.
00:06:53So, that question was always there.
00:07:00Career or achievements cannot become a way to escape the Self.
00:07:11Actually, it's never about a career.
00:07:13It's never about a job or a role or whatever.
00:07:17It's always about the Self.
00:07:19When the Self decides not to look into the mirror, then it starts looking elsewhere.
00:07:28So, even the career is about the Self.
00:07:31There is a certain void that one experiences and therefore one wants to fill it up using a designation or
00:07:39money or achievement or something on the CV.
00:07:43A seat in the boardroom.
00:07:46So, that question was there in an emerging form and I have tried to not bury that question.
00:07:59And that has resulted in this journey.
00:08:04So, what does Vedanta mean to you?
00:08:09Just being alive, not being mechanical.
00:08:14Having or rather earning the qualification to call oneself as a conscious being.
00:08:25Otherwise, it's very possible to act, to earn, to gather knowledge, to move from place to place, to rise up
00:08:35various hierarchies and still not be conscious.
00:08:40And if one is conscious.
00:08:42And if one is not conscious, then what's the point in calling all those movements as one's own?
00:08:51So, Vedanta to me is life itself.
00:08:56If consciousness is not there, then we are all just material pieces, being operated by unknown masters through unseen strings.
00:09:08So, Professor Shastri, Acharya Ji very nicely mentions that the importance of Vedanta to being self-reflective, to be the
00:09:18real purpose or the sutradhar of our journey.
00:09:22Professor Shastri, as a professor or instructor of Vedantic courses in IM Bangalore and otherwise, what do you think is
00:09:31the biggest stumbling block for our students to have or people in general to have that attitude at this point
00:09:39in time?
00:09:40I wish I knew.
00:09:42I wish I knew.
00:09:42Yeah.
00:09:43No.
00:09:45At a very gross level, I think many people are not interested in these things.
00:09:52Partly, they are not aware of it.
00:09:55Because year after year, I mean, I only teach a few students.
00:09:58Many people, many of the students are very interested because they have never heard of this.
00:10:04Once they hear of it, they get interested.
00:10:06So, one is lack of information.
00:10:08And I think people like him are spreading that information on a massive scale.
00:10:13That is one reason I think people are not getting into all this.
00:10:20The second thing is there are very popular misconceptions.
00:10:23Maybe we will discuss it today.
00:10:26And he is another example of that, that Vedanta means going into the forest and taking sannyas
00:10:31and looking at the tip of your nose and doing something otherworldly and renouncing everything.
00:10:38So, some people said, oh, that's not for me, so I am not interested in that.
00:10:42And then there is a large number of people for whom Vedanta is a little abstract because they want a
00:10:51God and they want to worship God
00:10:53and do rituals and do pujas and pray to God, give me this, that and other.
00:10:57Whereas Vedanta doesn't give you that opportunity.
00:11:00So, that's another reason why some people are not interested.
00:11:02I am only guessing.
00:11:04I don't know why people are not interested.
00:11:06I am glad that we have a house full of people who are willing to look inside through the source
00:11:10of Vedanta.
00:11:12And the concept that's something that strikes me and is something which I hold very core, which Gita and Upanishads
00:11:19lay a lot of emphasis on is Swadharma.
00:11:22And I think if you don't mind, we will discuss a little bit about that.
00:11:26Particularly, I wanted to ask you that, you know, business world, the world outside will tell you that you have
00:11:35to have a career ambition.
00:11:40However, Swadharma will maybe tell you something different.
00:11:44The question is, how do you distinguish what is your true inner calling?
00:11:49And have you ever found any leaders or practitioners who have some tips and tools to figure out what is
00:11:58their Swadharma?
00:11:59I am glad that term has been brought in.
00:12:06We must start from where we usually are.
00:12:11And when we talk of Swadharma in Gita, the same verse mentions Paridharma.
00:12:22So, Paridharma, Swadharma, and then the final thing, Mukta Karma.
00:12:33These three have to be seen together and they are hierarchical to some extent.
00:12:41We operate as self-ignorant beings.
00:12:49There is somebody sitting within that entity, the ego-self.
00:12:57It says, I.
00:13:00It assumes itself to be existent.
00:13:04It takes itself to be real.
00:13:07And its belief about itself, its ontological belief is, I am incomplete.
00:13:17And therefore, it keeps borrowing stuff from here and there.
00:13:22It attaches itself to everything, to people, to thoughts, to places, to ideas, and also to concepts of responsibility.
00:13:41Concepts of responsibility.
00:13:42Concepts of responsibility.
00:13:42It does not have anything of its own.
00:13:45It's a mere idea.
00:13:47The ego is its own idea, its own belief.
00:13:51So, what does it fill its existential incompleteness with?
00:13:56It borrows a concept.
00:13:58All kinds of concepts, including the concept of responsibility.
00:14:02So, this borrowed responsibility is Paridharma.
00:14:07I do not know who I am.
00:14:08Therefore, I do not know what I ought to do.
00:14:10Therefore, I just pick that idea from here and there.
00:14:15Or I allow that idea to be implanted within by some forceful agency, by some eager agency, by some clever
00:14:25or cunning agency.
00:14:27I open the gates and that agency is able to implant that idea here.
00:14:34This is who you are and therefore, this is what you must do.
00:14:37Now, I do not know anything about myself because I have never bothered to self-inquire or self-observe.
00:14:43Somebody else came and told me, this is who you are and now spend your life doing all this.
00:14:49This is the map.
00:14:51I do not know who the traveller is but I have been given a map and the map includes a
00:14:55destination also.
00:14:56The traveller has no idea of his own being but he very well knows a map.
00:15:01It could be a career map also or a spiritual map, doesn't matter.
00:15:05So, that's Paridharma.
00:15:08Swadharma is to return to who you really are.
00:15:18Swadharma is to act in a way that does not increase your dependencies, that does not choose ignorance anymore.
00:15:32That's Swadharma coming back.
00:15:35Even Swadharma is only for the one who is still deluded, who is still carrying a false identity.
00:15:44So, for that person, Swadharma is like medicine.
00:15:48Even a medicine needs a sick one.
00:15:51So, Swadharma is for the deluded one.
00:15:55And then when you are free, that's a fictitious imaginary state.
00:16:00I don't know whether that is possible for anybody.
00:16:03When you are liberated of all kinds of borrowed stuff, then you allow your action to flow any which way
00:16:11without bothering.
00:16:12And that's Nishkam karma.
00:16:16That's Nishprayajan.
00:16:17The self is not bothered about its security, self-preservation.
00:16:23And so, there is spontaneous action, Sahaj karma.
00:16:26So, that is Mukta karma.
00:16:28Swadharma is about seeing that one has been following Paridharma for too long.
00:16:36Experiencing that angst and allowing it to jam your steps.
00:16:44It's like showing the mirror to someone who just does not want to self-observe.
00:16:50And that mirror does the trick.
00:16:52That's Swadharma.
00:16:54So, then the question remains as to how any tips or anything that you've seen leaders which have corporate leaders
00:17:04or otherwise people around you who have used to tap into the inner calling or Swadharma as such.
00:17:13I cannot give any particular examples because this is not so much about the role one assumes.
00:17:24It could be a rank fresher just entering a corporation at the age of 23 or 27 or it could
00:17:32be the CEO or a board member or it could be a student or it could be just about anybody.
00:17:39A retired professional or a housewife or a government employee or a sports person just anybody.
00:17:45It is upon each of us to see that if we call ourselves as alive then there must be a
00:17:56certain freedom within.
00:17:59Does my identity carry that freedom?
00:18:03Now asking that question and working to remove the bondages that is Swadharma.
00:18:10And that's not just something that a leader must have.
00:18:15It's independent of the role.
00:18:17It is relevant not to the role but to the being.
00:18:21I might be assuming any role.
00:18:23Any role.
00:18:24I might be a chef somewhere or I might not be doing anything.
00:18:27I might choose to sit idle at home two years just reflecting.
00:18:32Still, I need that clarity on identity.
00:18:37Professor Shastri, building on what Acharya Ji mentioned, I mean it's not a very simple concept to adopt or to
00:18:47have a practice in day to day life.
00:18:50So do you really, I mean do you think a dharma aligned living is possible?
00:18:57Yes.
00:18:58If you ask me, yes.
00:18:59No, surely.
00:19:00I mean I'm sure, I mean I'm daring to ask questions which many men shy away from asking.
00:19:06Is it possible?
00:19:06No, no, it's a good question and I don't want to build on what he says because he said it
00:19:10all.
00:19:11So it's more like from Vedanta you go to the Puranas, you have to give some many examples.
00:19:21So last week I was in some remote tribal area, you know, we pretend to do some social work because
00:19:28I think that is my swadharma.
00:19:29I'm not saying it is everybody's swadharma.
00:19:31So one lady about her age or maybe little older than her, she came from Rajasthan and she was a
00:19:39Swiss citizen of Indian origin.
00:19:41And she came to see what we were doing and she spent, I have come back but she is still
00:19:50there, roaming around in the tribal area.
00:19:53Now what I wanted to say about swadharma is that first she came to Bangalore, she came to Anathapur with
00:19:59us and then in Azirabad, whole day she had a smile on her face.
00:20:07So, like he was just saying that she rediscovered her personal swadharma which is not universal and therefore she was
00:20:15happy.
00:20:17If you are miserable in your life, you can be sure that you are not following a swadharma.
00:20:22It's pretty obvious.
00:20:24So she did some introspection, they said Switzerland is not the place I should live in, I have to come
00:20:29back to India and she decided she wants to do some social work etc.
00:20:32And she says first I have to learn and she is learning and she is very happy.
00:20:38So, the proof of the pudding is in the eating that if you do what you really enjoy then you
00:20:45will be happy.
00:20:47And if you are not, that means you are doing something which is not good for you.
00:20:53That's all I can say.
00:20:54And a little bit of introspection and trial and error will help most people.
00:21:00A few fortunate people, I can give examples.
00:21:03Bhim Sen Joshi, MS Subbalakshmi.
00:21:07They, nothing, I mean, I want to sing.
00:21:09Bhim Sen Joshi ran off from home at the age of 10.
00:21:12Because he, and that his swadharma was to sing.
00:21:15It's so obvious.
00:21:16Both of them are Bharat Ratnas.
00:21:18We may not be at that level of Bhim Sen Joshi and MS Subbalakshmi.
00:21:22Her mother wanted to get her married.
00:21:24She said, no, no.
00:21:25I want to sing.
00:21:26So, she ran away from home, came to Chennai.
00:21:29So, these are, you know, we always take extreme examples because they illustrate the point.
00:21:34But there are many such people who think and, as they say, you know, get out of the paradharma and
00:21:40say that, what should I do?
00:21:42And, you will yourself understand.
00:21:44I mean, if you are happy, then that's your swadharma.
00:21:47Or what?
00:21:51It's as simple as that.
00:21:52It's as simple as that, I feel.
00:21:54So, I'll stick to the topic, which was beyond the resume.
00:21:59And also, at the same time, in Vedanta, we know, in Gita, they all, I mean, they, it's mentioned that
00:22:07treat everybody equally.
00:22:09The one who is knowledgeable, the one who is not, the one who is like you, or the one who
00:22:13is not.
00:22:16However, as a professor, and as a student, and in corporate world, it's all about ranking, putting one over the
00:22:23other, right?
00:22:25So, how do we assimilate these two conflicting ways of looking at the world, and live a life with humanity?
00:22:33So, this is open to both of you, and you can add, and I don't want it to be a
00:22:38very mechanical conversation, so the way you would like to take it.
00:22:42Yeah.
00:22:44The particular verse from Gita says that, a Brahmin, a chandal, a cow, and a dog, they all are to
00:22:56be looked at equally.
00:22:58And there are other verses as well, that decry the various kinds of separations and hierarchies.
00:23:10See, in Vedanta, there is the level of practice, the level of the experienced world, the Vyavahar, Vyavaharik Tal.
00:23:20And then there is the level of the level of Truth, Truth Absolute, Paramarthi Tal.
00:23:29Now, all kinds of divisions and dissimilarities seem to exist only in this zone of individual experience, Vyavaharik Tal.
00:23:46So, as I, the ego, looks out through this apparatus, the body, it sees dissimilarities.
00:24:00Now, these dissimilarities are not real. In fact, they are just an expression of the limits of the seer and
00:24:12the seeing apparatus.
00:24:14Yes.
00:24:15Please see.
00:24:16How do I know that X and Y are two separate entities?
00:24:21Yes.
00:24:22The knowing is happening through this instrument and the knowing is being acknowledged by the
00:24:29one sitting within and acknowledging or rather superimposing this separation is an existential
00:24:38need for the inner one because if things are not separate there, then this one too cannot be separate from
00:24:47all this.
00:24:47Yes.
00:24:48Whereas, I exist only if I am separate from this chair.
00:24:53Yes.
00:24:54If X is not other than Y, then I cannot be other than this chair.
00:25:02So, I see separation, division, diversity and more accurately said, I superimpose division.
00:25:13Superimpose division.
00:25:15Now, that can be understood both philosophically, epistemically and scientifically.
00:25:23Now, science, when you refer to it, would say these all things that appear different, they
00:25:31are all coming from some fundamental particles.
00:25:34So, if you are seeing 10,000 things, actually these 10,000 things are composed of only three
00:25:39particles.
00:25:40And then even those three can be further reduced to one or two.
00:25:45And that's what modern physics is doing today.
00:25:47And ultimately, physics has come to the point where it is saying that even the separation
00:25:53between that particle, first of all, there are 1,000 things.
00:25:57There are just two things.
00:25:58And even the separation between those two things and the observer is a false one, is a false one.
00:26:05Now, that's the way the apparent separation on the level of the seen reality, the experienced reality is reconciled.
00:26:17I mean, simply put it is, all of us sitting here are material processes.
00:26:24So, how can one be other than the other?
00:26:29You know, all of us sitting here are ultimately biochemical streams.
00:26:37So, what's the difference between one and the other, except for the name, shape, form,
00:26:42and this and that, and all the mental images and the branding and the labeling.
00:26:47Apart from that, it's one instrument and the other instrument and the other instrument,
00:26:51and all the instruments have very similar fundamental constituent units.
00:26:56So, that's how diversity is reconciled at the Vavharic level.
00:27:02At the level of absolute truth, anyway, the separation between the observer and the observed is gone.
00:27:09So, there is one indivisible, non-dual truth.
00:27:14So, there is no separation.
00:27:15There is no separation.
00:27:17So, that's the way Gita and Vedanta have to be seen.
00:27:22You know, you cannot see equality where it is not.
00:27:28Equality cannot be an ideal.
00:27:30Equality cannot be a principle.
00:27:33Equality has to be a reality.
00:27:36If at all, it has to become life.
00:27:39And when you see equality in that sense, you also acknowledge that when it comes to experience and behavior,
00:27:49inequalities will exist.
00:27:51Black and white have to be seen as separate in terms of behavior and use and utility and many other
00:28:00things.
00:28:01So, Vedantic equality is not the negation of experienced inequality.
00:28:09It is a transcendence.
00:28:11Inequality does exist, definitely.
00:28:14Definitely.
00:28:15But only to the one who is unreal.
00:28:17As long as I am the ego.
00:28:20Practically, for me, X and Y will be unequal.
00:28:26As long as I am the ego.
00:28:28And when I am not, then the question of separation is no longer relevant.
00:28:38Professor Shastri, would you like to add to this?
00:28:40Particularly when we are living in a Vivaric world, how do you resolve this understanding to practice?
00:28:49I don't even know whether it is to be resolved, but he has given a very detailed answer using modern
00:28:55science.
00:28:56I will take, therefore, the biological or psychological route.
00:29:01So, and of course Vedantic, this thing.
00:29:05So, a mother has, in those days, five, ten children.
00:29:10They are all different, but she loves them all.
00:29:15Now, we have a body or you, you know, if you have a tree, the tree has flowers, it has
00:29:21branches, it has leaves.
00:29:23Is the leaf equal to the flower? These are, to me, relevant questions.
00:29:26These are diverse manifestations of the same underlying reality.
00:29:33Human beings, everything.
00:29:34Sarvam Kalvidam Brahma, they say.
00:29:36So, everything underlying it is the same.
00:29:38Now, coming back to the Vivaric verses, this thing.
00:29:41Those people who feel discriminated against whatever they are, whoever they are.
00:29:47They, it is their demand for equality.
00:29:50And they want an answer which will satisfy them, independent of Vedanta.
00:29:57So, what I feel in a practical sense is the sage or the Rishi.
00:30:03You know, so many examples in modern times are there.
00:30:06They don't see the external only.
00:30:09They see inside.
00:30:11And they see that same divine inside.
00:30:12It is not.
00:30:14For us, it is still a concept.
00:30:15So, for them, everybody is equal.
00:30:17And in their Vivaric, you will find that they actually treat everybody as equal.
00:30:20So, until we raise our mind or go beyond the mind or whatever you call it,
00:30:26there will be an equality.
00:30:29Because that's how it is.
00:30:30I mean, this is brown.
00:30:31This is transparent.
00:30:33So, this is some other color.
00:30:34The black as you share in white.
00:30:37What do you add?
00:30:38So, hoping more and more sagacious behavior and sages sitting in boardrooms and in corporates.
00:30:44I'll address the next question to you, which is that, Professor Shastri, most of our business,
00:30:52corporate world or even in day-to-day life, we face conflicts.
00:30:58One, which is situations where there is a conflict between your personal values and your, let's say, outward desires.
00:31:08So, what does Vedanta have to say about why does such a conflict arise?
00:31:17The reason is always ignorance, let's say.
00:31:20The root of it is ignorance.
00:31:23Now, what is that ignorance and all that we can discuss.
00:31:25But your real question is that, how do we live practically in a, without conflict?
00:31:32That's what your religion is.
00:31:33I mean, we all know when we are making our CVs, the truth and what's written is very different.
00:31:41So, how do I resolve that conflict?
00:31:44So, I, and then there are temptations which come arise, which arise every day.
00:31:50Should I, you know that this is not the right thing, but pressures from outside push you towards.
00:31:58So, how do you, what does Vedanta have to say?
00:32:00First, I think understanding as to how to prevent it, probably to understand why it arises would help.
00:32:07And then maybe we could also discuss why does it help.
00:32:09You want to take that first, otherwise I'll get into a longer discussion just to answer this.
00:32:13So, if you want to go first, please go ahead.
00:32:17They've come to listen to you.
00:32:18You see, a value requires a valuer, right?
00:32:22It depends on what I take myself to be.
00:32:26If my ego concept is, I am the one in need of social validation.
00:32:34I am the one who will feel fulfilled with a fat bank balance or a nice looking offer letter or
00:32:45a quotable CTC figure.
00:32:47If I take myself to be that, then I'll do anything to get that CTC figure.
00:32:55If that requires crawling, if that requires drooling, if that requires bending, I'll do all of that.
00:33:04Because that is coming from the most fundamental point that there can be.
00:33:10My identity, my identity.
00:33:13You know, somebody asks me who you are, I say I am the hungry one.
00:33:16I say I am the hungry one.
00:33:18Then I'll do anything for food.
00:33:20The question is, does the valuer know himself?
00:33:25Because values don't come first.
00:33:28Self-knowledge comes first.
00:33:30Depending on who I am, I decide what is valuable.
00:33:35If I am the hungry one, food is valuable.
00:33:37If I am the lonely one, company is valuable.
00:33:41If I am the ignorant one, knowledge is valuable.
00:33:44If I am feeling cold, then clothing is valuable or a hot bath is valuable.
00:33:53If I am the fatigued one, then some rest, maybe a well-made bed is valuable.
00:34:00So who am I?
00:34:01Now, our education system does not take us into that.
00:34:06So the questions don't even get an opportunity to arise, the inner questions.
00:34:13We get ready-made answers even before the questions can bloom.
00:34:16So who am I?
00:34:18I am the one who will be appreciable when he touches that particular milestone.
00:34:26Now to touch that, if I need to lie to a prospective recruiter, I will do that.
00:34:32Now I cannot stop that at the level of action.
00:34:35That has to be stopped at the level of the actor.
00:34:37The actor is the valuer.
00:34:40We want to have particular kinds of right-looking actions or behaviours often.
00:34:46We want that.
00:34:47And we don't like it when somebody is lying or when somebody is bluffing.
00:34:51But all that is action.
00:34:53Behind that lies a deluded actor.
00:34:57And behind the deluded actor lies an education system that never bothers to take the student into herself.
00:35:06And then, fine, the original question that you mentioned was, sometimes our actions are in contradiction of our values.
00:35:16Absolutely.
00:35:17No, that does not happen.
00:35:18Action always follows value just that.
00:35:21The values are in contradiction.
00:35:23No, no, no.
00:35:23Just that our professed values are not the same as our actual values.
00:35:28Our professed values might be, oh, I am the truthful one.
00:35:33I am the one who values integrity.
00:35:35So that's the professed value.
00:35:37Whereas the practiced value is, I am the one who can do anything for a job.
00:35:43Action would always follow the real value and the value would always follow your inner statement of identity.
00:35:52What, can I say something on this?
00:35:54You see, what I found practically is, that this conflict is there.
00:35:58Because later on people do regret, arrey, I said, why didn't I do this and all that.
00:36:03So, the most practical thing to me seems is, look at living examples.
00:36:14There could be people around you, there could be people you have read about in books and so on.
00:36:20And if you have that rare quality of being inspired by great people, then you will follow their example.
00:36:30So, one person who comes to mind in this, is a person who went through these conflicts and wrote a
00:36:37book called,
00:36:38My experiments were truth, Mohandas Karam Chand Gandhi.
00:36:41He was in the middle of politics.
00:36:44He never shied away from saying that I made so many mistakes.
00:36:47But, because of what he was, he actually ended up following his higher values than his lower values.
00:36:55He is an example.
00:36:56And of course, you know, like he was inspired by Harish Chandra.
00:37:00I also used to weep when I used to read Harish Chandra's stories.
00:37:04So, if you can catch the teachings through the lives and actions of great people and keep it in mind,
00:37:12it really helps.
00:37:14Or people around you.
00:37:17But if you are going to follow Elon Musk, then you will go in that direction.
00:37:22What can you say?
00:37:23What can I do?
00:37:25It's up to you.
00:37:26Dr. Shastri, thank you for bringing that point across, which is to follow people.
00:37:31Especially those who do not live in this technological world.
00:37:35Especially those who do not live in this technological world.
00:37:39And that's a segue for my next question.
00:37:41And maybe the last and then we will open up the questions, open up the space for questions from the
00:37:48audience.
00:37:48The question is that Gita talks about sthittapargya.
00:37:53Ups and the downs treat it equally.
00:37:57But when technology is with us, whenever anything bad comes, what do we do?
00:38:03Swipe it off.
00:38:05So, is it possible in this world of technological enlightenment?
00:38:08And this is a question where I come from as a witness of 1200 plus students, including myself, who are
00:38:19just so in grasp of technology.
00:38:23Is it possible to have a healthy spiritual practice and journey in this world of technology?
00:38:32So, when we say sthittapargya, sthitt refers to the state of being well-settled, being immovable.
00:38:45Gya refers to knowledge and when you attach as a qualifier to it, it means that special kind of knowledge
00:38:55which is inner knowledge.
00:38:57So, sthittapargya means being firmly established, being unshakable in your inner knowledge.
00:39:09That's sthittapargya.
00:39:14We must begin from again, where we are.
00:39:17We remain very, very uprooted within, at the mercy of the winds.
00:39:25We call ourselves as individuals, we call ourselves as having some kind of independent agency.
00:39:37I am somebody.
00:39:39But the practical fact of our life is that the inner identity is very dependent on external happenings.
00:39:53Somebody comes and says, you are good, I become good.
00:39:57I discover I have lost money, the self-esteem falls.
00:40:02So, the inner point remains very variable, very mobile.
00:40:07In fact, very helplessly dependent.
00:40:11Very helplessly dependent.
00:40:13So, then, when you see that, it becomes a matter of basic human dignity.
00:40:20Vedanta would call it sobhava.
00:40:22Basic human dignity to say, this is not how I want to be.
00:40:28Because this is not my fundamental nature, sobhava.
00:40:33How can I be a puppet being controlled by unseen puppeteers and so many of them.
00:40:40And to most of them, I have not even given the license to control me.
00:40:50Even unknown faces, unpredictable events, they manage to not just change my condition, but my center.
00:41:01Our condition obviously can be dependent on the outside.
00:41:03Right?
00:41:04If it gets too hot, I will sweat.
00:41:05So, that's a physical condition dependent on something else.
00:41:08And that is fine.
00:41:09But what if external approvals, disapprovals, losses, gains manage to uproot me from within?
00:41:21Now, that, when you look at yourself, you do not want to approve of.
00:41:27From there comes the word sthith pragya.
00:41:30I have looked at myself and therefore, I do not want to be vacillating within.
00:41:37Therefore, I do not want to be at the mercy of unknown forces.
00:41:42That's the sthith pragya.
00:41:44Everything that is material, everything that can be experienced, seen, touched, is random
00:41:52and uncontrollable.
00:41:54So, I don't want to dominate that.
00:41:55I don't want to control that.
00:41:57But when it comes to my fundamental being, I do not want to attach it to any external
00:42:04happening or even internal happening.
00:42:07It has to be totally independent.
00:42:09That's liberation.
00:42:11And that's from where sthith pragya comes.
00:42:15I am standing still.
00:42:18Standing still.
00:42:19And standing independent of the entire revolving world.
00:42:24The world is doing its own thing.
00:42:26I am a participant in that at one level.
00:42:29And at another level, I am a free witness.
00:42:33Sthith pragya.
00:42:34And how has that happened?
00:42:35By looking at myself.
00:42:38Pragya.
00:42:38Pragya is the one who looks at himself.
00:42:42The Upanishads say pragyanam brahma.
00:42:45So, the word pragya is quite central to Vedantic knowledge.
00:42:50Wonderful word.
00:42:51You know.
00:42:52What we have here.
00:42:53For example, at I am.
00:42:55Is Gya.
00:42:57Gya corresponds to avidya.
00:43:00External knowledge.
00:43:01And the moment you bring in the Upsarga pra.
00:43:04That corresponds to Vidya.
00:43:06Looking at yourself.
00:43:08So, that is the field that is missing from our education system.
00:43:11If along with Gya, we can also have Pragya.
00:43:16Along with avidya.
00:43:17We can also have Vidya.
00:43:18Then we will produce not just a manager, but a sthith pragya.
00:43:24Mr. Shastri, would you like to add anything here?
00:43:27No.
00:43:27I think back to your original question is.
00:43:31You use the word pragya, but it says in today's digital world.
00:43:35Digital world is just a metaphor.
00:43:37In today's world, can we be like that?
00:43:39In day-to-day life.
00:43:40That is basically the question.
00:43:43And say yes.
00:43:43The answer is yes.
00:43:45See, all these toys and technologies.
00:43:50You know, they say that you can use fire to cook.
00:43:54Or can you use fire to burn.
00:43:57So, same these technologies depends on you.
00:43:59How you use it.
00:44:00You can use it for a good purpose.
00:44:02Or you can allow it to create stress.
00:44:04And create problems for yourself.
00:44:07And the way to avoid it is, he has already mentioned that.
00:44:12See, this is a difficult task.
00:44:15See, we allow the external world to make us happy and unhappy.
00:44:26And as he said, we are puppets of external forces.
00:44:29Kishe ne kuch bol diya.
00:44:31Arre, how dare he say that.
00:44:33Let him say, humko kya parak pata hai.
00:44:36So, at a joking level, when you go to Bilekhali, you see a lot of cows sitting in the middle
00:44:42of the road.
00:44:42I often think of them as thithap prajna.
00:44:45Because the traffic is coming and going.
00:44:50I mean, you see a lot of these thithap prajna cows on the road.
00:44:53I mean, I am not saying that we have to become like a cow.
00:44:56The point is that, but at a deeper level, you know, the avuduta will say, it is my guru.
00:45:01I mean, it is not getting disturbed by the traffic going around.
00:45:05So, that difficult job we don't want to do of not allowing the external world to dictate our state of
00:45:15mind.
00:45:16And the practical way out is of course introspection and all.
00:45:20But a little bit of whatever, whether it is psychological techniques or yoga or meditation,
00:45:26it does definitely help you to not get disturbed by other things.
00:45:31I will be intellectually, I will keep on discussing it.
00:45:35But it will happen tomorrow and the same thing will happen.
00:45:38So, you have to do some work on yourself to not allow the external world to disturb yourself,
00:45:45whether it is the social media which you are referring to or anything else.
00:45:50Fantastic.
00:45:51And before we open up the question, the stage for questions,
00:45:54one last quick question.
00:45:56You can answer it as shortly as possible.
00:45:58What is that one question that each professional should ask?
00:46:03A professional or any…
00:46:06I thought that the audience will be all business school students, but many of them are there.
00:46:11Anything that a professional or an individual must ask?
00:46:17No.
00:46:19I can only give me the answers.
00:46:21No.
00:46:22No.
00:46:24No.
00:46:26No.
00:46:26No.
00:46:27No.
00:46:27No.
00:46:29No.
00:46:32No.
00:46:36No.
00:46:38No.
00:46:39No.
00:46:40No.
00:46:40No.
00:46:43No.
00:46:43No.
00:46:43No.
00:46:44No.
00:46:44No.
00:46:44No.
00:46:44No.
00:46:44No.
00:46:45No.
00:46:45No.
00:46:46No.
00:46:47No.
00:46:48and surely I have taken back something that I would try and bring in as I act and I work
00:46:55with
00:46:55the students here so we'll open up the questions open up their space for questions you can raise
00:47:01your hand and ask both Acharya Ji and Shastra Ji. Hello sir my name is Afshar and I had a
00:47:10question
00:47:10that you just discussed that the discrepancy in what we write in the CV and what is true
00:47:16actually arises from where my values are my professor's values are different from my actual
00:47:22values but if we see the entire process like if I decide to stay true to my values and not
00:47:31do
00:47:32anything that is not true but the entire cohort is doing that so in a way I might be at
00:47:38a
00:47:38disadvantage so basically how to navigate through that.
00:47:46I am the one whose worth is in comparison with that of others. That's the flawed identity statement.
00:48:02Correct that and all would be alright. You see what you are saying is I want to do something that's
00:48:11aligned to a high noble kind of value.
00:48:14But then all others are taking the dirty route and hence they'll be faster
00:48:20and more successful therefore I feel an internal pressure to follow them. Right?
00:48:26But the underlying assumption is that my worth is to be calculated relative to them. Challenge that assumption.
00:48:36That's all.
00:48:39Just another bit on a personal friend.
00:48:43So basically I was born into a Muslim family and for quite some time I have been trying to read
00:48:50about Adwait Vedant.
00:48:51I have been associated with the Prashant Adwait Foundation and what I've realized that Adwait Vedant is not really religious.
00:49:00It's more of a philosophical thing and that's what I just wanted to understand that do you think that it
00:49:07would be an easy task to take it to others who are not Hindus per se?
00:49:13And would it be, like how challenging would it be and how do you think it would be in the
00:49:19future?
00:49:22One of the things that works is don't call it Adwait Vedant, simply called it non-dual philosophy.
00:49:31Otherwise the Sanskrit might put off some people, you know, there is no need to mention it through a tradition.
00:49:43This is simply non-duality and non-duality is to be found in Buddhism also, Madhyamik Shunnawad.
00:49:50So non-duality, as simple as that. And obviously you got it right.
00:49:56This is not religion of the usual type. It does not contain any stories. It does not contain any belief
00:50:04system.
00:50:05This is simply an inquiry into the nature of reality. So this is not really religion.
00:50:12In another sense, this is the only religion. Because stories and beliefs do not constitute religion.
00:50:20Stories are stories. You know, religion, the root word, R-E-L-I-G-A-R-E, that refers to
00:50:29going back, going back to who you really are.
00:50:35So in that sense, non-duality, because it questions the very relationship between this and that, whether I even exist
00:50:43truly,
00:50:45religion is the essence of religion. But this is between you and me.
00:50:50When it comes to the general world who are captive to their dogma, this is essentially philosophy, just non-dual
00:51:00philosophy, simple.
00:51:02I understand. Thank you, sir.
00:51:08He asked the question. I just wanted to add to her point.
00:51:12First question was that everybody is doing something wrong and what should I do?
00:51:16You see, most of the questions that people ask, what I have seen over the years is, I want to
00:51:27achieve certain goals.
00:51:30And you are telling me all this dharma, ethical, vedanta, advait, whatever it is.
00:51:35If I follow it, will I be able to achieve those goals? That is the underlying question, actually.
00:51:41And if it doesn't help me to achieve those goals, then I will not follow this.
00:51:46There is no answer to such a thing.
00:51:49You should be prepared to pay the price.
00:51:54If I am going to follow dharma, advait, vedanta, truth, etc., only if I get all the worldly success that
00:52:01I want,
00:52:01then advait is not for you. Simple and straight. I mean, let us be very blunt about it.
00:52:08I want all the goodies of life and still I want to do this.
00:52:13I can't do this.
00:52:20Sorry, you had a question.
00:52:22And the second question was about spreading this everywhere.
00:52:26Well, he is already doing it.
00:52:28I personally feel that those who have been able to live that kind of life, personally,
00:52:39they alone should go around talking about it.
00:52:43Otherwise, hundreds of people are going around on YouTube, here and there,
00:52:48kuch-kuch-kuch-kuch bholte rehte hain, confusing themselves and other people,
00:52:52here, sabko prachaar nahin karna chahiye.
00:53:00Yes, I have a question.
00:53:05Namaste.
00:53:07So, there was a discussion about the swadharma.
00:53:10And Shastri Sar was saying that the work which gives you the real happiness, one should do that.
00:53:17So, I was wondering, how one will realize what is his swadharma?
00:53:24And is there any profession or any work which can give the real happiness for the whole life?
00:53:33Very difficult question.
00:53:35Because, you know, I am at a disadvantage.
00:53:37I have been in a profession which I love and I never had this problem.
00:53:40But seeing my friends around, a little bit of, there is no other thing except introspection.
00:53:47I don't know how else you can do that.
00:53:48You have to introspect and think.
00:53:50And there are two things to it.
00:53:52One is that you do what you like.
00:53:56Other is that you like what you do.
00:53:58Because if you are in a situation and if you change your way of thinking, attitude,
00:54:06many of the things that he said,
00:54:08then that same situation becomes pleasant and happy if you change your inner attitude.
00:54:16And sometimes we carry baggage in the sense,
00:54:19I don't like my colleague, I don't like my boss, you know, I don't like my commute.
00:54:23All these things are there.
00:54:29So, you have to solve that problem.
00:54:31I mean, I meet so many people, one guy came with me to Anantapur.
00:54:36He is still, so he said, you are so lucky.
00:54:41I said, why?
00:54:42He said, you are doing the work that you like.
00:54:44I said, you can also do it.
00:54:47So, he said, oh, you see, I have an EMI.
00:54:52He's bought one fancy house, gated community and he has to pay an EMI on that.
00:54:59He said, in those days his kids were in school.
00:55:01He has to pay so many lakhs of rupees for the kids' school and so on and so forth.
00:55:06And then, of course, he has to go on vacation every year to Switzerland one year
00:55:10or Cambodia the next year and put it on WhatsApp.
00:55:14I mean, the obvious thing is, if he's really, and he says,
00:55:19if I get up and leave home before 7.15, I can reach office in 45 minutes.
00:55:25If I leave after 7.15, it takes 90 minutes.
00:55:28I said, what about the evening?
00:55:30There's no choice.
00:55:3190 minutes driving in Bangalore.
00:55:33So, Teen Gante going up and down stressfully and hating his job, but bank balance increasing.
00:55:40Now, that is his choice.
00:55:43He's seeing that so-and-so, according to him, is happy, but he doesn't want to change.
00:55:49Nobody can give you a solution to this.
00:55:51So, now he can sell that house, go into a small 2 BHK, pull his kids out from those expensive
00:55:58schools
00:55:59and send them to decent, normal schools, cut down his expenses and be happy.
00:56:03But he will not do it.
00:56:06So, I asked him after 5 years, what are you doing?
00:56:09Same thing, sir.
00:56:09Same thing, sir.
00:56:11If you want to die, you will die.
00:56:13What can I say to you?
00:56:15That is how it is.
00:56:20There are no easy answers.
00:56:23So, yes.
00:56:24For example, I have chosen work today.
00:56:27So, today is my one position.
00:56:29So, maybe after a certain point of time, I will also evolve and maybe then I will realize that the
00:56:34work I am doing is not right.
00:56:35And therefore, that is why my question is that how one can realize what is his real Swadharma?
00:56:41How one can realize that?
00:56:43At a young age, I have given you all these examples.
00:56:46I can again tell you a young Sachin Tendulkar.
00:56:49I am not talking about him at a spiritual level, just at the practical level.
00:56:53At the age of 10, somebody was interviewing him.
00:56:56What do you want to do?
00:56:57Cricket.
00:56:58Cricket.
00:56:59What about tennis?
00:57:00Cricket.
00:57:01Cricket.
00:57:02What about football?
00:57:03No.
00:57:03Ten.
00:57:03What about studying in college?
00:57:06No.
00:57:06Cricket.
00:57:07So, he was very clear at the age of 10 that was his Swadharma.
00:57:10So, these are all little out of the three sigma limit kind of people.
00:57:15Not that I am saying he is a great spiritual person or anything.
00:57:18They knew that Swadharma, they are doing it.
00:57:20But for the rest of us, I feel practically that, like I will tell you another friend of
00:57:27mine.
00:57:27He used to be here in IAM.
00:57:29What happened to him is that very brilliant guy, J29 and I still, he is a good friend and
00:57:35I respect him.
00:57:36So, I am not going to say anything against him at all.
00:57:37He was a professor here.
00:57:39And at some point in his life, he decided that his Swadharma is to look after his parents
00:57:47and his in-laws who were in India and he came back from America.
00:57:50And when he came back here, he had to make some compromises, you know, promotion.
00:57:56He didn't worry about it.
00:57:58In fact, he is retired.
00:58:01His father is 100.
00:58:02He is still living with him and his mother-in-law is still alive.
00:58:05They are also staying with him.
00:58:06He is at peace because he said, I have to look after the old people and I have to look
00:58:10after my children.
00:58:12But if it means that I will get less money or I have to forego some promotions, so be
00:58:16it.
00:58:17When he came to a particular IAM, they said, we cannot take you at that level.
00:58:21We will have to take you at this level.
00:58:23Very happily, he took it.
00:58:25So, he made conscious choices which we don't want to do.
00:58:29We want to have the cake and eat it too and then we curse the world.
00:58:33When we curse external circumstances and put the finger and blame something external,
00:58:38there is no hope or redemption.
00:58:42The only hope is when you say, I take responsibility for my life and my actions.
00:58:48I mean, I know it sounds very hard but that's the only way.
00:58:52But if you point the finger outside that I am in trouble because of all those external factors,
00:58:58there is no solution to the problem.
00:59:00Never.
00:59:02Simple psychology.
00:59:05Western psychology, unfortunately, I don't want to take pot shots.
00:59:08Oh, you are in trouble.
00:59:09In childhood, your mother did this.
00:59:11Your father.
00:59:11You have to take responsibility and change your life.
00:59:16Vedanta will say that.
00:59:17Definitely, it will say that.
00:59:19So, when you do that and start getting that clarity, whatever that swadharma is,
00:59:24will start becoming clearer and clear.
00:59:27So, he decided my swadharma is to look after my family.
00:59:30You decide what it is and do it.
00:59:33Good question, Acharya Ji also.
00:59:38Is, according to Vedanta philosophy, is there a way one can realize their swadharma?
00:59:45One has to start with the padharma.
00:59:49Realize what was the question?
00:59:51Realize what is one's swadharma and therefore what work one must choose going by the swadharma.
00:59:58One has to, again, third time this evening, one has to start from where one is, right?
01:00:05So, one has to start from paradharma.
01:00:11And that's the consequence of the centre one is operating from.
01:00:17Paradharma is a symptom, a consequence, an effect.
01:00:21It is not the real problem.
01:00:24If you are operating from a centre of fear, then paradharma will reflect in your actions.
01:00:32If you are operating from a centre of tradition or greed, then whatever you do will be paradharma.
01:00:43Right?
01:00:45Once you reject that centre, you look at it and the looking dissolves it.
01:00:51Why does the looking dissolve it?
01:00:52Because you cannot like your own ugliness.
01:00:57We are not designed to like ugliness even outside.
01:01:02How can we like ugliness inside?
01:01:06If ugliness manages to sustain itself inside, it is only because we don't look at it.
01:01:15It remains in the shadows, remains hiding in some dark cave inside, therefore it manages to survive.
01:01:22You look at it and it is so ugly, it has to go.
01:01:26When it goes, then you don't have to bother about swadharma.
01:01:31In absence of that ugly centre inside, swadharma is natural action.
01:01:39It is the resultant of the interaction of this being, this body with its surroundings.
01:01:47You have eyes, there is the brain, there are the faculties to act and action will happen.
01:01:56Your job is not to determine the right action.
01:02:00Your job is not to determine swadharma.
01:02:03If you determine swadharma, there would be a problem.
01:02:06Your job is to determine paradharma.
01:02:09And once paradharma is gone, then time, situations, etc.
01:02:15They engage with the organism and there is a resultant action and whatever that action is, that is swadharma.
01:02:22You see, Buddha was born in a particular time when the Vedic religion was decaying.
01:02:33So you look at his action.
01:02:36He is denouncing the prevailing religious practice and he will say swadharma.
01:02:44Now, had the same consciousness, the same centre, the same pure inner centre,
01:02:50Buddha will not even say pure, he will say an absent inner centre, a clear, clean inner centre.
01:02:57Had that taken birth in a body 300 years back, he would have been a composer of wisdom literature,
01:03:08which might even have been known by the name of Upanishads.
01:03:13So what shape, what form, what name the right action will take depends on the situations.
01:03:21Krishna born today might be someone struggling to save the planet.
01:03:27But this kind of external situation didn't exist on the field of Kurukshetra.
01:03:33So Krishna is only talking of Duryodhana and various kinds of Yogas and many other things.
01:03:42So, it does not behove us to put our finger on, well this is the right action to do.
01:03:50The right action is always spontaneous, never premeditated, never deterministic, never something
01:03:57that you can tell off in advance.
01:03:59But the wrong action is.
01:04:02The wrong action always flows from a plan, from a tradition, from a structure, from an algorithm.
01:04:10And that's what you have to reject.
01:04:12Once you have rejected the wrong centre and the consequent wrong action, you are free.
01:04:17Now in that freedom, whatever happens is swadharma.
01:04:23So you don't have to worry.
01:04:24Let it happen.
01:04:31Thank you Achorcha.
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