- 1 day ago
François Picard is pleased to welcome Tina Khidasheli, jurist and former defence minister of Georgia. According to Khidasheli, Georgia is suspended between its declared European future and an increasingly authoritarian present. While formally holding candidate status for EU membership, the political reality has shifted toward systemic control, legal ambiguity, and the suppression of dissent. Legal instruments, particularly the foreign agents law, are designed not merely to regulate but to deter, creating an environment where ordinary professional or civic activity risks criminalisation.
The result, Khidasheli says, is a chilling effect that extends across civil society, media, and even routine international engagement. At the strategic level, decision-making is no longer anchored in national interest as traditionally conceived, but instead calibrated against external power expectations, most notably those of Moscow. This reorientation reflects not ideological conviction, explains Khidasheli, but political survival. Governance is driven less by values than by the imperative of maintaining power, preserving wealth and avoiding accountability. Simultaneously, security concerns are selectively addressed. While visible signs of radicalisation and foreign ideological influence emerge, institutional attention is redirected toward those who raise alarms rather than the phenomena themselves. This inversion of priorities underscores a broader pattern: the state's mechanisms are increasingly employed to stifle dissent rather than safeguard society. The cumulative effect is a fragmentation of social cohesion.
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The result, Khidasheli says, is a chilling effect that extends across civil society, media, and even routine international engagement. At the strategic level, decision-making is no longer anchored in national interest as traditionally conceived, but instead calibrated against external power expectations, most notably those of Moscow. This reorientation reflects not ideological conviction, explains Khidasheli, but political survival. Governance is driven less by values than by the imperative of maintaining power, preserving wealth and avoiding accountability. Simultaneously, security concerns are selectively addressed. While visible signs of radicalisation and foreign ideological influence emerge, institutional attention is redirected toward those who raise alarms rather than the phenomena themselves. This inversion of priorities underscores a broader pattern: the state's mechanisms are increasingly employed to stifle dissent rather than safeguard society. The cumulative effect is a fragmentation of social cohesion.
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/France24_en
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NewsTranscript
00:00Georgia does not share a border with Iran, but is coming under scrutiny are the ties
00:06between Tbilisi's pro-Moscow government and the Islamic Republic.
00:11Earlier this month, Georgia's state security service is launching an investigation into
00:15claims Tehran has been working hard to infiltrate Georgia's Shiite minorities, in particular
00:21in the Qwemo-Kartili region that borders Azerbaijan and also Armenia.
00:27This follows a report by the Washington think tank, the Hudson Institute, that concluded
00:32that Tbilisi is facilitating Iranian penetration.
00:37Reacting to the probe into Iranian meddling, South Carolina Republican Congressman Joe
00:42Wilson commented, the anti-American Georgia Dream Party scared to death Americans will
00:49learn that it is in cahoots with the Iranian regime, so they're doing everything they can
00:53to silence experts highlighting this fact to defeat Iran, defeat Georgia Dream.
01:00Now, she's been called in for questioning by Georgian authorities for commenting on this very topic.
01:08It's time for our spotlight segment.
01:14Former Georgian Defense Minister Tina Kiedeshele today heads the Georgian advocacy group Civic Idea.
01:21Thanks for being with us here on France 3.
01:22Thank you for having me here.
01:24So, you were on a private television channel and you were commenting this report by the Hudson Institute
01:31and that landed you in a bit of hot water?
01:33Yes, unfortunately that's the situation in today's Georgia.
01:37This is the country which has officially still candidate status for the membership to the European Union
01:42and was an aspirant country for NATO, one of the most advanced nations.
01:46It ended up in 2026 when people are called by security forces for things like, for example, three days ago,
01:54an ombudsman, former ombudsman of Georgia, ombudsman is a human rights defender, as you know,
01:59the official government representative for the human rights of the people,
02:04was called for questioning by the same security forces because he had a meeting with the OSC reporter in Georgia.
02:11I was called being a former minister of defense whose natural job is to comment on security and defense issues
02:18because I've commented on security issues raised by the fact that we have small but still very troubling
02:28demonstrations on the streets of Georgia, in certain parts of Georgia, very close to the capital city,
02:34by the people holding supreme leaders' pictures and saying that and screaming death to America, death to Israel
02:44and screaming that Khomeini's job will continue.
02:49And security forces felt it important to question me to understand whose order I was working on
02:59when making the comments. Yes, because we have, since two years now, we have the Russia-style foreign agents law
03:06in a country
03:07that brought massive demonstrations in Georgia, actually, over the two years, every day, basically,
03:13that outlaws any support from international organizations or private donors or foreign democracies,
03:22that are the European Union, again, whose candidate country we are to become members,
03:30supporting Georgian civil society or Georgian media. And the language of the law reads in a way that
03:37anything, literally anything, can qualify as a violation of the law and you face
03:44criminal sentence starting from six years of jail time. And this anything means for you to understand
03:51how far they went to, for example, I am attending right now, I am in Paris because I am attending
03:57Defence Conference, right? And in order to travel to Paris for people like me who work for non-profits
04:04and who are not in business, obviously, we always seek the donors funding to pay for the tickets,
04:11to pay for the hotel, to be present in these important events. That is already under the Georgian law,
04:19that might raise questions. Who supported my trip here? How did I end up in Paris? Why? And what kind
04:27of instructions I've got from the foreign countries?
04:31Let's break this up into two here, because there's the fact that you're, you used to be in politics,
04:37you were from a political party that once upon a time was aligned with Georgian Dream, but then split
04:42off. We were in coalition, yes. A decade ago you split off. Exactly, in 2016. And then there's the
04:50issue at hand about these accusations of Georgia working as a conduit for Iran. That questioning,
04:59how much of it is about you personally and how much of it is about Iran? It's everything together. And
05:06also don't forget, even more important aspect, how much it is about Russia. Because everything Georgian
05:11government does, prosecuting opponents, making statements, supporting those one or another action
05:20at international level, it's all guided by one question. What the Moscow will think about it,
05:26whether they will like this action or they dislike, whether they will react positively or negatively.
05:32Unfortunately, the major problem Georgian government has today is that, particularly when it comes to the
05:39foreign policy, all its actions, all its decisions are guided by answer to this one question, what
05:46will Kremlin think about it? And that's where we are. So, Ivan-
05:50And now they've started this investigation, though.
05:54Yes.
05:54And is that Republican congressman correct in saying they're scared of the U.S.,
05:59and that's why they started the investigation?
06:02They, I don't think they are, well, yes, they are scared of not only the U.S., but any,
06:10but European Union, as well as NATO, all the countries, they are scared in a way that,
06:15obviously, regardless of the fact that the government says that they don't care, regardless of the fact
06:19that the government has this very Russian-type sovereignty formula that, like, you live in a
06:25vacuum and nothing happens outside and the whole world just goes around you and thinks how to make
06:32trouble for you. Regardless of that, of course, they care. Of course, they care because there are
06:36sanctions against them, because there are visa travel bans and so on and so forth, and most of them
06:42have their wealth outside, out here, in the city included. And they are afraid that there might be
06:48moments when, because of the torture accusations against them, because of the widespread violation of
06:54human rights or many other reasons, they might fall, their property might fall under the sanctions.
06:59So because of that, they, of course, care about all those issues. But the problem with this
07:04particular investigation was that instead of actually going after the troubles and problems
07:13that were listed and well-documented in the report, the Hudson Institute, they've decided to go
07:20against the people like me, like Georgian co-author of the report, and a couple of others.
07:26It's only been two weeks, though, since they announced they were opening this investigation.
07:28Yes, it was almost a little bit more than two weeks.
07:31Among the issues that the report brought up was this Al-Mustafa University.
07:39It's an under-sanctioned university. It's under sanctions by the United States and Canada,
07:46and they were irked because you said it's not really a university.
07:51Yes, it's not really a university because, I mean, in Georgia. Of course, it's a university in Iran,
07:56but the Georgian branch of it that we have does not have a license to work as a university.
08:03It's not licensed. Its programs are not accredited. No law, no legal requirements for qualifying
08:10as a university are met. And because of that, I refuse to call it university. But whatever it is,
08:17it doesn't really matter because, at the end of the day, the purpose they serve, by essence, qualifies
08:24the educational purpose, qualifies the same purpose as the university does. And it can be perfectly used as a
08:31tool for recruitment. I'm not saying it is recruiting for terrorism because I'm a lawyer by profession
08:38and whatever I say, I need to have a very strong proof of it. But judging from the experience of
08:45this
08:45university, judging from the reasons why it is sanctioned in several countries, and why, for example, the
08:50German security forces went after it's exactly the similar branch in Germany, was the problem with the
08:59extremism, the problem with the recruitment for the terrorist purposes. Georgia, a mainly Christian
09:06country, but it does have, again, this Shia Muslim minority in the southeast of the country. How does
09:17that minority feel about that? We have both. We have Sunni and Shia minorities. We have the largest
09:23Muslim minority in Georgia in Azerbaijan minority. How do they feel about it? I think that
09:32most of the Georgian Muslims are genuinely
09:37holding the same spirit, same idea for their country, like all of us. And there is no distinction.
09:44We do not make that distinction by religion or by ethnicity. The only problem is that in the times
09:53when, like it is right now in Georgia, when the government does not really pay attention to the
09:57integration policies, when government does basically nothing for bringing all the communities to the
10:03board, but mostly works for the separation of the society, for building on the hatred in society,
10:11for its own benefit. I don't really understand why they are doing it, but that's what they are doing.
10:16Obviously, people are searching for the ways to get the education, to get the access to development,
10:23and the only available opportunity they get, if the only available opportunity they get is this so-called
10:31university, they go for it. And because of that, we've got quite a significant number of graduates already
10:37from there. Again, I don't claim that all of them are necessarily into the extremist ideology,
10:44definitely not, because then we would feel it much stronger than we do. But the fact that after the
10:50war started in Middle East, in our neighborhood, these people showed up in the very center of the city,
10:58in front of the Iranian embassy, holding the pictures of Ali Khamenei, with all those famous phrases
11:07being shouted, it is scary. And this is something that security services should be interested in and
11:14investigating. They are not doing it. We've put the alarm there. And what they did? They started
11:20the investigation against us, rather than investigating what's going on in a country, and if there is any
11:25threat to the society. And I think this is the biggest problem. And what Congressman Wilson was
11:32saying is exactly that. Because if you are a strategic partner to the United States that we've been for
11:38all these years, and one of the most supported countries out there in the world by the United
11:43States in terms of security, then you don't behave like my government behaves these days.
11:48The government, you talked about it, being always aware of what Moscow wants, being afraid also of
11:58U.S. sanctions. It's afraid of, which one is it afraid more of? The wrath of Moscow or the wrath
12:04of
12:04Washington? Actually, what they're afraid most is losing the power. Because unfortunately, the way it
12:11works in that parts of the world is either you're in power or in jail, right? So that's what they
12:16are
12:16afraid the most. Whomever will keep them in power will be their main ally. Today, the only way of life,
12:23as it continues, they see for them keeping in power is Moscow way. That's why they stick with Moscow.
12:29They stick with the policies that we have in Moscow, the laws they do in Duma. If you look at
12:36the
12:36legislative process in Georgia and parliament, it goes like one by one, exactly like Russians started
12:41fighting the opposition, fighting the civil society, fighting independent media, how they
12:47kicked everybody out from the country. That's exactly what my government does. If tomorrow
12:51they will see that there is more hope in something else, then they shift. This is kind of government
12:57that does not have morals, does not have values. They do not have principles. It's all about keeping in
13:04power, earning as much money as possible as long as they are in power, and staying out of prison
13:10once they are not in power. Whatever serves this goal works for them. And today, that's Moscow.
13:16TINA KIDASCHELLI, attending the Paris Defense and Strategy Forum. Thank you so much for being here.
13:22Thank you very much for having me here. Stay with us. There's much more to come,
13:26more news, plus today's business and sports.
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