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00:00Hello and welcome to another episode of Catching Up With The Royals with me, Emily Andrews
00:05and me, Richard Coles. This is the podcast that takes you beyond the headlines and lifts
00:10the lid on what life is really like behind palace walls.
00:13Although at one time did have to buy him a drink, he didn't buy me a drink.
00:17Hey, hey, hey, hey, more on that please.
00:19This week we'll be pulling back the proverbial curtain on the inner workings of the so-called
00:24firm, arguably one of the most lucrative companies in the world, from which Royal
00:29earns the most, the king, he is the first billionaire monarch, doesn't hurt if you are exempt from
00:35inheritance tax, to the act of quitting the family business, what does the world owe you
00:40if all of a sudden you've handed back your crown?
00:42We'll be uncovering exactly how the House of Windsor is run and makes its money.
00:52Well, here we all are again, catching up with the royals. Now, Prince Philip famously
00:59referred to it not as a family, but a firm. Do you think that was apt?
01:05I think so. I think for two reasons, really. One, the monarch is like the CEO, the chief executive,
01:13and effectively runs everything. He or she, any person within the firm, be they working royal,
01:20member of the family or courtier, answers to the monarch. And actually, I think it's apt that
01:24Philip coined it because he was the arch moderniser. He was a real moderniser in the royal family of the
01:3020th century. And I think that what's interesting about the firm is that they are, in some respects,
01:39I mean, we're in the age of influencer, aren't we? But aren't they the ultimate influencer?
01:43Aren't they the ultimate brand? So it's really important to make a distinction between royals,
01:49which we talk about, obviously, catching up with the royals.
01:51That's all of them. That's all of them. They're all welcome here.
01:53Princess Michael of Kent.
01:55Yes, Zara Tindall. She is a royal. But the working royals are funded by the Sovereign Grant.
02:00Now, the monarch is funded in three ways. He or she has their own private inherited income.
02:06Not, they don't have to pay income tax. So because of that, I think Charles is the first
02:10billionaire British monarch ever because he didn't have to pay inheritance tax
02:14tax on his mother's inheritance. So they're funded by personal wealth, the Duchy of Lancaster
02:19and the Sovereign Grant, the heir to the throne of the Prince of Wales, is funded by the Duchy
02:23of Cornwall.
02:24Hang on, Duchy of Cornwall, Duchy of Lancaster. What are those?
02:27Yes, those are two separate duchies. So the monarch is also the Duke of Lancaster. Queen Elizabeth
02:33was the Duke of Lancaster. And they're separate duchies. They are huge land-owning entities.
02:40Now, the Sovereign Grant is a percentage of the Crown Estate. So the Sovereign Grant is
02:46paid to the monarch that funds all the work of the royal family.
02:49So the Crown Estate are those holdings that belong not to the individual, the king, Charles,
02:54but to the crown.
02:55Absolutely.
02:55To the king and his successors.
02:57Absolutely. And a percentage of the profits goes to pay for all the working royals and their
03:04travel, the job that they do, basically, for Britain, PLC.
03:08I've got two other words for you. Corporation tax?
03:12I don't know whether the Crown Estate pays corporation tax. That's a really good question.
03:18If you start from the notion that actually anything held by the Crown is exempt from taxation, because
03:23it's HMRC, isn't it? It's the Crown that does the taxing.
03:28Exactly.
03:28So the Crown taxing itself does sort of have to be by its own volition, because that's how
03:34it works, right?
03:35Yeah. Everything else that they do, even when they're going, say, they're visiting India
03:39or they're visiting the US, then that's paid for by us via the Sovereign Grant. Now, the
03:43working royals are the king, the queen. Come on, Richard. Who else?
03:48The Prince of Princess Wales.
03:49Yes.
03:51The Princess Royal.
03:52Yes.
03:53The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.
03:55Well done, Sophie and Edward.
03:56Edward. There's three more.
04:00Princess Alexandra. The Duke of Kent.
04:04Yes.
04:04I can't. I've run out of royals.
04:06And the Duke and Dutch to Gloucester.
04:07Of course. Yeah.
04:08And then, of course, for the Prince of Wales, the heir to the throne is funded by the Duchy
04:13of Cornwall.
04:14All those biscuits.
04:14All those biscuits. Yeah. Actually, fun fact. You're absolutely right to say about Dutch
04:19originals. But that was set up by Charles as Prince of Wales. But now it's wholly owned
04:25by Waitrose.
04:27Oh, really?
04:27Yeah.
04:28But the brand and the association endures?
04:31The brand and the association endures. It was set up in partnership, I think, between
04:34Charles and Waitrose. And then any profits from the range were given to the Prince's Trust.
04:43Oh, I see. So it's actually, it was profits going to charity.
04:46Yeah. Profits still go to charity, even though it's now owned by Waitrose.
04:48We're talking about kind of large sums of money here, but I just want to say on the
04:51sovereign grant, before people think that that's actually kind of tax that could otherwise
04:56be spent on hospitals, schools and roads, which indeed it could be. But actually, the
05:00sovereign grant comes out of the income of the Crown Estates, right? So that's holdings
05:04that belong not to Charles, but to the monarchy. And the sovereign grant is a percentage of the
05:12profits from that.
05:13That's absolutely right.
05:14Right. And that was an arrangement that goes back historically. I know they tinker with
05:18it from time to time.
05:19Yeah. So George Osborne, when he was Chancellor back in, I think, like 2011, 2012, it used to
05:25be the civil list. So effectively, the UK government would dollop a whole load of cash to the keeper
05:30of the Privy Purse, who is like the chief accountant at Monarchy HQ. Funnily, the principals, the royal
05:36family, call Buckingham Palace Monarchy HQ. They do call it Monarchy HQ. So the government used
05:42to give a whole load of cash to the keeper of the Privy Purse, which would fund all their
05:47work. And then under the Cameron coalition government between the Tories and the Lib Dems, George
05:56Osborne was Chancellor. And he actually did the royals a real favour, because he said that
06:01a percentage of the crown estate, which as you've absolutely said, is held, it's kind
06:07of like it's crown lands, but all the money goes to the UK taxpayer. And now a percentage
06:13goes to the royals to fund their work.
06:15So you could say, in a sense, that they're sort of self-funding. If you were looking
06:19to...
06:19Oh, no. No, I don't think you can say that. Quite the opposite.
06:23Well, I'm just saying if you were looking as a way... And what I'm saying is this is a
06:26highly political debate, and indeed a politicised debate. And some people would argue that you
06:31do get value for money from the royal family, some would say, or the monarchy, and some would
06:35say you don't. And that's a very polarised view, and I'm just trying to figure out what the
06:39arguments are on either side of that.
06:41I think how they're funded and whether they provide good value for money, in my opinion,
06:45are two slightly different debates.
06:48Sure. And the other complications, of course, is how much of this is because it's not unreasonable
06:52to pay people to do a job? In other words, how much of this is in return for services rendered,
06:56which is if you're head of a state, it involves things like palaces and security and that kind
07:00of thing. Or how much of this is people just getting an easy ride from the Treasury and
07:05HMRC not paying inheritance tax, for example, if you're the sovereign?
07:08Well, I think are they, are they worth it? Are they value for money? Depends on who you
07:14ask. And I think it often depends on your view of politics. I think it probably depends
07:20on your age. We tend to be more supportive of monarchy, I think, as we get older. Certainly
07:25younger people, all the popularity polls are that, you know, people don't support the monarchy
07:31as much when they don't.
07:31God save the Queen. I was the King now in it. Say aye.
07:35Anyway. It's really bloody complicated. It's really complicated.
07:37And that's one of the, there's a, one of the reasons why it works for them is they don't make
07:40it, it's not transparent. It's not transparent. And they want it to be complicated and they
07:44want so that they, we don't delve too much into how much money they really do have.
07:50I've got a quiz for you before we go. Richard, how many official roles working for the family
07:57have been related to the lavatory?
08:00Oh my word. What a question.
08:02I know, you're bringing the tone down, aren't I?
08:03I'm going to have to think about that.
08:05Back with you soon.
08:10Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals. Before the break, I asked you how many official
08:15roles working for the royal family have involved lavatories? Wait for it. And the answer is
08:22two.
08:23Number two.
08:24Oh, Richard! You have to bring the tone down, but I love it. I love it. Of course it had
08:30to
08:30be a number two. Yes. And that is relevant. Okay. So the, the two roles are, if you hadn't
08:35worked out already, groom of the stool and keeper of the royal bedchamber stools. Now,
08:41Richard, do you know what the groom of the stool had to do?
08:45Well, I was hoping it was someone who had to do with seating arrangements, but I guess
08:48we're on a different stool here.
08:50I think it's a different stool.
08:51I'm going to leave it for you to explain.
08:53Okay. So the groom of the stool would literally be there to wipe the monarch's derriere.
08:59They would be there to wipe the monarch's bottom, should he or she chose. And I think also
09:04there was, in all seriousness, it was an important job because you also, it was to do with the
09:08health of the monarch. Yeah.
09:09So you had to inspect the stool and make sure that it all looked appropriate and that they
09:12didn't have an upset tummy and they weren't ill. But whoever held that job was actually
09:18a very, very important courtier because he or she would be incredibly close to the monarch
09:24and was party to all their private thoughts in a very intimate environment.
09:29So in the days of, say, a Tudor monarchy, for example, where the monarch was the sun,
09:33the moon and everything, if you had the ear of Henry VIII as well as the bottom of Henry VIII,
09:39you had a very, very direct root of power.
09:42Yeah, definitely. And also, I think there's something, isn't there, to be said.
09:45You know, I don't want to speak for you, Richard, but when you're literally naked or partially clothed,
09:50you are quite vulnerable, aren't you? And he, and I think there has to be a sense of real intimacy
09:54between someone who is helping you in that, you know, not that I've ever had this.
10:01You know, it's quite, it's quite a vulnerable thing.
10:03Yeah. But also the fact that the health of the monarch was so closely related to the health of the
10:08nation.
10:09Yeah.
10:09So if the monarch's poos were looking a bit off, that might affect the value of the pound.
10:14Yeah, totally. Yeah.
10:15Interesting.
10:15Because the monarch needed to live because he or she, and it's the same now.
10:21You see it with people around the court, you know, of the monarch and the air in waiting.
10:27Everyone's kind of thinking, how long have they got?
10:29Because if they go, my position goes too.
10:32Which is why the second role, keeper of the royal bedchamber stools was also important,
10:37because that role involved making, putting out all the chamber pots for high ranking and official guests.
10:43And if you think, again, going back to kind of medieval Tudor times,
10:47when obviously there was letter writing, huge amount of letter writing,
10:51but the real way that diplomacy, well, still like now, was affected, was through face to face.
10:58It's access.
10:59Access.
10:59Yeah.
11:00Mind you, a bittersweet feeling to be told.
11:03The good news is you've been appointed to a very senior position at court.
11:06The bad news is, bring your mittens.
11:09Yeah, I know.
11:11But there are other ones.
11:12It's so interesting that there's another job, the page of the back stairs.
11:17Billy Backstairs Billy.
11:19Yes, Backstairs Billy.
11:20Now the page of the back stairs, it sounds like you would rather be page of the main stairs,
11:25but the back stairs was where a lot of the unofficial business was transacted.
11:29Yes.
11:29So the back stairs where people could get in and out, up and down,
11:33in and out of the sovereign or the prince's chamber without being seen,
11:37without being on public display.
11:39So that's quite significant.
11:40I remember visiting a stately home, and there was a suite that was reserved for the heir to the title.
11:46And that had a separate entrance, which went to a side door.
11:49So the heir to the title could conduct his, invariably in that case, his business,
11:55without it being confused with the official business of the house.
11:59Do you see what I mean?
11:59Yeah.
12:00It's interesting, isn't it?
12:00Very clever.
12:01Yeah.
12:01And then, of course, there's always the kind of, there's roles like the royal shoe wearer.
12:06I mean, and that's sort of that, I don't know whether that happens with King Charles,
12:09but that certainly happened with the late queen, Queen Elizabeth, Angela Kelly,
12:14otherwise known as AK-47, because she was, and she still is pretty formidable,
12:19although she's retired now.
12:20She was the late queen's dresser for many, many years.
12:23She's a very impressive Liverpudlian.
12:25And she had the same size shoe as the queen, the same size foot, sorry, as the queen.
12:30And she would wear in her shoes.
12:33Well, that makes sense, because if you're the queen and you're on your feet all day,
12:35you could be literally put out of business if you've got a blister.
12:40Or if you, you know, you need that, that's an indispensable service.
12:45Absolutely.
12:46If you're the queen and you're, or the king, and your time is minuted to the second to the minute,
12:51and they do, their schedules are 7.43, 8.22.
12:55You know, if your shoes are rubbing and you're in pain, that's no good for anyone.
12:59I'm fascinated by Angela Kelly to have had that degree of access
13:03and also that degree of intimacy.
13:05And clearly, is affection the right word? I'm not sure.
13:08Yes, I think so.
13:09It's such an interesting role, isn't it?
13:11And also how interesting that she's described as a weapon by her nickname at court.
13:16Yes, AK-47. Well, the story goes that while she was still working for the late queen,
13:23she was allowed to publish two books.
13:28The first of which was a book about royal dresses.
13:32And then I think the then Prince of Wales, Prince Charles,
13:35was very worried about what she might publish after the queen died,
13:40because she literally had access to all the secrets.
13:42She used to watch television with the late queen.
13:45She was her confidant.
13:46She would know who the queen voted for on Strictly.
13:48Yeah, she would know.
13:49I bet she'd say you.
13:51I'm certain she wouldn't.
13:53But she would know.
13:54She would know who, if the queen put a bet,
13:56which horse she'd been betting on.
13:57She would know who, what the queen thought about Meghan.
14:02So...
14:02Also intimacy, knickers and bras and all that stuff.
14:05Exactly, yes.
14:05All of that kind of thing.
14:06When the queen was unwell, Angela would go and personally care for her.
14:11She did her hair.
14:12She helped her with her makeup.
14:14And so when a monarch dies, everybody around the monarch,
14:19grooming the stall or not, is out on their...
14:21Exactly, it's out on their hair.
14:22So Charles made sure he gave her a nice house.
14:26I don't know what's happening.
14:27I mean, there's a story that Backstairs Billy,
14:28who was so loyal to the queen mother
14:30and keeper of all the secrets, knew where all the bodies were buried.
14:33Once the queen mother died,
14:34he was booted out to a flat in Kennington, I think.
14:36I'm sure that's true.
14:39Allegedly.
14:40Allegedly.
14:40Allegedly.
14:41Well, he's dead now, isn't he?
14:42But I mean, he knew a lot.
14:45That can make you very powerful.
14:47Yes, knowledge is power.
14:49Yeah.
14:49So I think it's interesting that now, of course, we don't have...
14:53You know, famously, when Queen Camilla became queen
14:56and was crowned a couple of years ago,
14:58she let it be known that she wouldn't have ladies-in-waiting.
15:01She now has companions.
15:03And Kay Middy, our friend, Kay Middy, the Princess of Wales, everybody.
15:07Her Royal Highness.
15:08Don't clutch your pearls too much.
15:09Her Royal Highness Catherine, the Princess of Wales.
15:11She doesn't have ladies-in-waiting either.
15:13Yeah, interesting.
15:14The other thing, of course, is if you've got all these people
15:17like wearing in your shoes or looking at your stools or whatever,
15:20that's payroll, isn't it?
15:22Payroll.
15:22How rich do you need to be?
15:24I mean, we've talked about...
15:25So the Sovereign Grant covers some of this,
15:27but what about the personal wealth of the senior or the sovereign?
15:30Let me look up my list.
15:31Let me look up my list.
15:32I'm glad you asked me that.
15:33So the royal rich list, who do you think tops it?
15:36The king.
15:37Of course.
15:38He is the first billionaire monarch.
15:40Now, that's partly because of that awful word, inflation.
15:44It's also partly through very savvy investments
15:47throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.
15:49And also, I think it's partly thanks to Prince Philip,
15:52because Philip and Charles started treating the royal estates,
15:58their personal income, their personal lands, as businesses, the firm.
16:03And so then they started charging market rent.
16:06It wasn't just a feudal, oh, I'll just let you live in this house
16:08if you mow my field for me.
16:11They professionalised it.
16:12They professionalised it.
16:13Absolutely.
16:14They professionalised the business of being a monarch.
16:16And so Charles is estimated at 1.8 billion.
16:20Can I just add to this?
16:21It doesn't hurt if you are exempt from inheritance tax.
16:25I was just about to give you that.
16:26I beg your pardon.
16:26Richard, we need to talk about inheritance tax.
16:28I think we do need to talk about inheritance tax.
16:30Very quickly, I'm going to run through the rest,
16:31but then we need to explain to everybody about the inheritance tax issue.
16:35So Prince William, as the heir to the throne, Duchy of Cornwall,
16:37he's estimated at 90 million.
16:39Princess Anne, I didn't know this.
16:40Her personal fortune is approximately 50 million.
16:43That's largely through inherited estates and wealth and investments.
16:48And then Prince Harry and Meghan.
16:49Again, we don't know how much really they're worth
16:51because we don't know what any of them are worth.
16:53But Harry and Meghan combined private net worth
16:56is commonly estimated around 47 million pounds.
17:00But the monarch doesn't have to pay inheritance tax.
17:03This is a very significant perk, isn't it?
17:06Because it's 40% or something, isn't it, inheritance tax on most people.
17:10I know I inherited a little money from my mother
17:13and a chunk of that went to the tax ban.
17:15And if that hadn't gone to the tax ban, I would be wearing a tiara right now.
17:21Well, I wouldn't, but you know what I mean.
17:23I do.
17:24I mean, is it fair?
17:24I would say, I suppose the problem is,
17:27is that if the monarch was subject to inheritance tax,
17:30then would they go bankrupt?
17:32Well, and it is, there's a sort of, they use a language,
17:35which sounds like an exemption, which is sovereign to sovereign, right?
17:37So it's only the succeeding sovereign who enjoys that benefit.
17:42Yeah.
17:43The other thing that's striking about this is that
17:45you do get this right, they do pay a certain amount of tax,
17:48but they seem to decide themselves.
17:50I would very much like to speak to HMRC and say,
17:52I've decided to pay you this amount of tax this year.
17:55Okay, with you, thank you very much, bye.
17:57It's not going to work, is it?
17:58Well, it's interesting because when Charles was Prince of Wales,
18:02he was quite open in the Duchy of Cornwall
18:06and used to say how much income tax he paid.
18:08He didn't tell us how they came about the calculations,
18:11but he publicly said how much they paid.
18:15William, as Duke of Cornwall and Prince of Wales,
18:18is not telling us how much income tax he's paid.
18:19Isn't that interesting?
18:20Because that would be, that's a counterintuitive fact,
18:22because you imagine more transparency rather than less transparency
18:25would be the direction.
18:26I wonder if it's part of this, certainly with William,
18:31I wonder if it's part of this not wanting to appear rich.
18:35I can't believe that any royal would be diddling HMRC
18:38because that would just be, I mean, the only person who's above
18:41prosecution is the monarch.
18:43It does give you a formidable tax advantage.
18:45It does give you a formidable tax advantage if dad,
18:49if you're being prosecuted in the name of your dad.
18:52But I can't.
18:53Inspectors of decree.
18:54I can't believe that all those civil servants
18:56and the keeper of the privy purse would allow them
18:58to get the tax bill wrong.
19:00But I do wonder, I do feel that William wants to be
19:04kind of like a man of the people and wants to be seen
19:07as another ordinary type of guy.
19:09Does publishing the millions that he has to pay in tax?
19:14Because how much is he worth again, do we think?
19:15Well, we don't know.
19:16We worth about 20 to 25 million a year in income
19:18from the Duchy of Cornwall.
19:19Yeah.
19:20I mean, that's a huge amount of money.
19:2120 million pounds a year, Richard.
19:25I mean, imagine how many tiaras both of us could buy with that.
19:27There's a caveat to this, isn't it?
19:28Which is making, I remember a neighbour of mine got really exercised
19:32when she found out that the cost of the coronation
19:34was about 70 million quid.
19:36And she said, why can't the king pay for that?
19:38And it seems to be quite obviously why.
19:40That's a head of state thing.
19:41Yeah.
19:42The king isn't crowning himself for his own amusement.
19:45He's doing it because as head of state, that's what you do.
19:47So it only seems to be right that that should be paid by the state.
19:51But that's a useful confusion sometimes, isn't it?
19:53Because how would you always know how to distinguish
19:55between what is a function of state and what is a private benefit?
20:00It's hard to call that.
20:01But I mean, going back to what we were sort of saying before,
20:04are the royals worth it?
20:05You know, that 20 million pounds a year to William.
20:08I mean, it's just, he's the same age as me.
20:10I mean, I just kind of, my mind boggles.
20:11And don't forget that's from the 20 million doesn't include the money
20:16he will get as part of the sovereign grants to be a working royal.
20:19But then another thing, and this is a hard thing, but I mean,
20:21I think all of us would want to have a distinguish between our private resources.
20:26Yeah.
20:26And the resources that came to us by virtue of what we do.
20:29So, and I don't, in principle, in principle, I don't think it sounds unreasonable
20:36that public stuff should be funded out of public money
20:39and private resources should not be lent on for that.
20:43I always liken the royals to, and there's that famous advert by Heineken.
20:48I don't think they do it anymore, but you know, Heineken,
20:50is it Heineken that it reaches parts other beers cannot?
20:54And I always think the royal family is a bit like the royal Heineken, the royal beer,
20:58because they can do, they can achieve things.
21:01They can convene people and bring people together in a way
21:04that I don't think anyone else in the world can.
21:06Look at the Trump state visit last year.
21:08There was the Princess of Wales dressed in Trump's favourite colour, gold.
21:13The amount of gold on that table at the Windsor Castle banquet was amazing.
21:17He was having the time of his life in the unprecedented second state visit.
21:22I mean, he absolutely loved it.
21:24And the result of that, Richard, meant that we had less bad tariffs than the rest of Europe.
21:30And it meant that factories here didn't close.
21:34Soft power.
21:35Soft power.
21:35And it's very hard to do a profit and loss on that, isn't it?
21:37Because they're very hard to track those figures.
21:39But I always thought other people would say,
21:40how much is the monarchy worth in terms of bringing in a tourist pound or dollar or yen?
21:45Well, significant amount.
21:47It's very hard to get any precise figures about that.
21:49But I still think even if we didn't have a monarchy, the coffers of the Royal Collection Trust,
21:54which administer the opening of Holyrood House, Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle,
21:57still think the tourists would come, King Charles or no King Charles?
22:00I've got a hypothetical.
22:01Go on.
22:02In the event that it was thought that perhaps we could manage perfectly well without a monarchy,
22:07it was abolished and we would form a republic, which is perfectly doable,
22:10whether it's wise or not is another question.
22:13Imagine the wrangling over who gets what.
22:16If the Windsors were to retire to private life, what would they take with them?
22:24Would the title in their art collection, their jewels, their land holdings,
22:30would that just go to the state?
22:31Or would they think, hang on, that was ours or that we...
22:35I don't know, it's an interesting one, isn't it?
22:36Well, some stuff is theirs personally.
22:38So...
22:39How do you untangle them?
22:40Balmoral, Sandringham, Highgrove are all personal homes.
22:45Windsor Castle, Buckingham Palace, Kensington Palace are owned by the state.
22:49The crown jewels, locked up in the tower.
22:51They're owned by the crown.
22:52They're owned by the crown.
22:54I would say, isn't that the state?
22:57I've got another thing to tell you.
22:58Tell me.
22:59Right, so I've looked this up actually.
23:01And the British monarchy in cost is about 100 million a year.
23:05The other monarchies, European monarchies, about half.
23:09I know.
23:10Some much less than that.
23:11But I think Denmark and the Netherlands are the next, in terms of expense,
23:17and it's half that cost.
23:18Yeah.
23:19And they, I mean, they seem to live pretty high on the hog,
23:21but obviously our lot are super expensive,
23:23and that's partly to do with the splendour and the extent of their living.
23:28Wow.
23:29There's not enough transparency for us to know.
23:31Well, it's time to go for a break.
23:33But after the break, we'll be asking the question,
23:35how do you actually quit the firm if you should choose to do so?
23:39Well, we'll come back to that.
23:40But we have a question for you to mull over also, and it's this.
23:43Is it true or false that the monarch requires no passport or driving licence?
23:51The monarch doesn't.
23:51See you in a moment.
23:53The monarch's a driver's license.
23:53See you in a moment.
23:56Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
23:58And a quick reminder that if you like what you hear and would like more content from us,
24:02then head to our social media channels.
24:05Search for Catching Up With The Royals.
24:07Now, before the break, the question was,
24:09true or false, the monarch requires a driving licence or passport?
24:13The answer is no.
24:14The monarch doesn't.
24:16Stopped by the cops, the monarch can say,
24:19no, no, no, be off with you.
24:21Stopped at immigration, no, no, no, be off with you.
24:22They're the fount of the monarch, it's the fount of all law.
24:26Doesn't need that stuff.
24:27The monarch is the law.
24:28Discuss.
24:30Anyway, look, we were talking about quitting the firm, Emily.
24:33If it is a firm, of course you have the right to hand in your notice.
24:38Yeah.
24:38And it has happened, hasn't it?
24:39But it's never been a particularly smooth business.
24:43No.
24:44So, obviously, the most infamous was the monarch quitting the top job,
24:51Edward VIII in 1936.
24:54It does seem a bit bonkers now, doesn't it, to think about it,
24:57but I think you have to put yourself back a hundred years.
25:00And, you know, the monarch, well, still is.
25:03The monarch is the head of the church of England.
25:05But then...
25:06Oh, sorry.
25:06Yes, this is your...
25:07Point of order.
25:08Yeah, point of order.
25:08This is your domain.
25:10Talk to me about...
25:11Supreme Governor.
25:12Supreme Governor.
25:12Not the head of the church.
25:13Sorry.
25:13Which is Jesus Christ.
25:15Okay, sorry.
25:15Supreme Governor.
25:16Supreme Governor.
25:17Small but important point.
25:18So, Jesus Christ is the head.
25:20Yes.
25:21And the British monarch is...
25:24The Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
25:25The Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
25:26Yeah.
25:26Of course, after the break away from Rome by Henry VIII in the 16th century.
25:32It's so complicated.
25:33So complicated.
25:33It's like a ton of podcasts just to scratch the surface of that.
25:36And also, of course, but at that point, he was still...
25:37He might have broken away from the church, but he was not Church of England.
25:40Anyway, that was Elizabeth I, but we're not doing history.
25:43We're doing royals.
25:44Very good.
25:44Thanks.
25:45You're welcome.
25:46The Elizabethan Settlement.
25:47The Elizabethan Settlement.
25:48And, of course, and then there was Edward VI, but...
25:50Really good.
25:51Yeah, I know.
25:51And Mariah and Mary.
25:53And, your neck of the woods, the Louisian Martyrs, I think.
25:58Oh, the Lewis.
25:59The Martyrs of Lewis.
26:00The Martyrs, yeah.
26:01Anyway.
26:02Bonfire.
26:03I love a Lewis bonfire.
26:03Those of you who know, who know?
26:05You know.
26:06But, back to the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, which was the monarch of Edward
26:11VIII.
26:12And, therefore, then, he couldn't marry a divorcee.
26:15So, he had to quit.
26:16I mean, it's the thing.
26:17The Church of England's doctrine at that time has changed now.
26:19It made it impossible for a divorcee to remarry if the person they had originally been married
26:24to was still living.
26:25Not permitted.
26:26And so, the Archbishop of Canterbury said no way.
26:29It was hard to imagine just what a crisis this was, actually.
26:32Yeah.
26:32It was an unthinkable thing.
26:33Yeah.
26:33That, all of a sudden, everyone had to think about.
26:36It was a big trauma for all concerned.
26:38I think the deal was, either you give up Mrs. Simpson, or you abdicate and marry Mrs.
26:44Simpson, or you marry Mrs. Simpson morganatically, which means that she would not become queen.
26:51She would not become royal through the marriage.
26:55And he said no.
26:56And, presumably, he could have stayed being king and had her as a mistress, like every
27:01other monarch before him.
27:02Yeah.
27:03And, of course, the cat was sort of out of the bag now, and he upped the ante.
27:06But it's like one of those things, you know, situations, don't speak, don't tell.
27:10Yeah.
27:11People can kind of make their own arrangements.
27:13But as soon as you sort of make that explicit, then you have to tidy it all up, and you
27:17know,
27:17you have to make a decision.
27:18It had to become, it became official.
27:19And I think, I mean, there have been many books written.
27:24Of course, famously, Wallace and Edward VIII are buried side by side in the grounds of
27:31Frogmore House, just by Frogmore Cottage, where another American married a British prince
27:41and went to live after their married life.
27:43I always thought it was quite funny that Harry and Meghan went to live in Frogmore Cottage,
27:47which is very, very close to the graves.
27:50Almost as if there were an element of deliberation, whoever chose that for them.
27:54Well, do you know what, though?
27:55I broke the story that they were going to move to Frogmore Cottage.
27:58And, of course, at the time, everybody thought that they were going to move into one of the
28:03vacated apartments in Kensington Palace.
28:05Yeah.
28:06Everyone thought they were going to live next door to Kate and William.
28:08And there was, I think, an apartment.
28:10Kate would have an apartment 1A, and I think apartment 1 was being renovated.
28:12And that was genuinely what was going to happen.
28:15But quite, I mean, we as the journos were always a bit late to the party.
28:19But what happened was Carrie and Meghan spent very little time at KP.
28:25They were living in Nottingham Cottage.
28:27And they didn't want to be, they disliked it so much,
28:30that they rented a place near Soho Farmhouse in the Cotswolds.
28:34And they spent very little time at Kensington Palace.
28:36And then when they said they didn't want to move into apartment 1,
28:39somewhere had to be found for them.
28:41There's a whole episode we've got to do on why royals don't like living in official accommodation,
28:45like the king and the queen don't want to live in Buckingham Palace.
28:48No.
28:48Nobody wants to live in Buckingham Palace.
28:50No one wants to live in BP.
28:51No.
28:51When, I think soon, this year maybe, we're going to get an updated audit
28:58of the money that's been spent from the Sovereign Grant that's been uplifted
29:01for the last 10 years of resurfacing.
29:04It's going to be interesting to see how much it's cost.
29:09And we should go round it, Richard.
29:11I've never been there.
29:12Have you not?
29:13No.
29:13Oh, by the way, I hear that they are personally quite tight,
29:18that they might have all these mega millions,
29:21but they don't like spending their own money.
29:24One of the great stories about Queen Mary, who used to go to visit people,
29:30and if she came to visit, people used to have to hide all their bibelots away
29:33because if she liked something, she'd just expect it to be given to her.
29:36It's a royal favour.
29:37And she used to go to shops when they would close to the public
29:39and go, that's nice, that's nice.
29:41And somebody would go around after and wrap it up in brown paper
29:44and deliver it to Buckingham Palace.
29:45No.
29:46Yeah.
29:46I think that sense of entitlement still does happen.
29:50I heard this great story about Meghan that on the eve of the Queen's funeral,
29:57which was a Monday, she got very worried about gloves.
30:01Now, this is my opinion.
30:03This is what I was told.
30:04She got very worried about gloves.
30:05My opinion is, because the gloves that she actually wore on the day
30:07of the Queen's funeral were elbow length.
30:09In fact, comparisons were made to Wallis Simpson,
30:12who was a very stylish lady, but also liked an elbow length glove.
30:15I was told that on the eve of the funeral,
30:18she got one of her people to ring a couple of the big French fashion houses
30:25that have stores on Regent Street and wanted them opened
30:29so that one of her minions could go and get some gloves.
30:33I think in the end, the keys couldn't be found or burglar arm codes
30:36or people couldn't be, you know, stretched.
30:39And so in the end, she didn't get whatever gloves.
30:42I think she wanted shorter gloves.
30:43I think she suddenly got, this is my personal opinion,
30:45I think she suddenly got really worried.
30:46But that sense of, oh my goodness, I need gloves.
30:49I need gloves.
30:50They're the wrong gloves.
30:51Get me new gloves.
30:51Somebody go, go.
30:53It's quite, that optics is very problematic, isn't it?
30:57It's a pop star.
30:57The thing is, you get used to the world being nice to you in about a day.
31:02The interesting thing is getting used to the world no longer caring about you.
31:05So when, you know, of course, Megan may sort of fret about her gloves.
31:08I don't know.
31:09But once you've stopped being the reason people are bothered about gloves,
31:14i.e. a member of the royal family, you need to really adjust very quickly,
31:18to trim very quickly to a world in which your caprices might not carry the weight
31:24that they did beforehand, right?
31:26So there's one thing about quitting, isn't it?
31:28All of a sudden the world, what does the world owe you
31:30if all of a sudden you've handed back your crown?
31:31And I think that was the mistake that Harry and Meghan made,
31:34because they are trying to make their own money now.
31:39All well and good.
31:40Well done then.
31:41But because they have literally bitten, publicly bitten the hand that fed them
31:46in terms of being so critical of the royals,
31:49that was the reason why everyone was interested in them.
31:52So whilst at the time them doing Oprah and doing the Netflix,
31:57sort of speaking their truth and saying how victimized they were
32:00and how unfair it all was, was probably quite cathartic.
32:03And obviously we all lapped it up, didn't we?
32:05In the long run, it wasn't very sensible as a strategic move,
32:10because they want people to buy what they are selling,
32:15be it Harry's life coaching or Meghan's jam.
32:18And if they've been...
32:20But you know, if she wants us to buy what she's selling,
32:24we have to believe in her and we want to buy into her.
32:28And she's literally told us that she hated the one thing
32:31that we were interested in her for, being royal.
32:33But do you think the plan is that you shift from being interesting
32:35because you're a member of the British royal family
32:37to being interesting because you're kind of like the Kardashians,
32:40that there's a sort of another version of that,
32:42a sort of secular version of that, if you like,
32:44where people were interested in them for their own sake,
32:47rather than for them doing anything.
32:49Well, jam's nice.
32:50And I don't want to be horrible to either Meghan or Harry.
32:53And I think, you know, deprogramming from their weird life
32:56is obviously going to be complicated and difficult.
32:58We wish them the best, but I'm not sure how...
33:01Do we?
33:02Well, yeah, I think I do, really.
33:04I think I do, because, you know...
33:06I think we should.
33:07No, I think we should.
33:08I think with...
33:09I always think...
33:10I always call it the Emily Andrews Venn diagram.
33:12So you've got three circles.
33:14Okay.
33:14You've got one...
33:15Are you with me?
33:15Yeah.
33:15Are you with me?
33:16One circle is celebrity.
33:18Yeah.
33:19The next circle is, you know, history.
33:22Yeah.
33:23The bottom circle is the news.
33:26And in the middle of those three circles is the royal family.
33:29Yeah.
33:29So in a case, sort of, to your point,
33:32if you take away the celebrity and you take away the news
33:35and you take away the history, what are the royal family?
33:38There isn't really much there.
33:40It's the combination of all those three things
33:42that make them so interesting, that makes them, you know,
33:44us want to talk about them.
33:46And makes them...
33:47Being able to earn a living.
33:48And makes them earn a living.
33:49The kind of living they want to earn.
33:50But then when they are the working royals,
33:54sometimes they feel quite trapped.
33:55And sometimes they want to quit.
33:57And also, the other thing I'd say in favour of Harry
34:00is I understand why, as a father,
34:03you would be concerned for the safety of your children.
34:04And if you walk away from the royal family
34:06and all of a sudden you no longer get that protection,
34:09nonetheless, interest may endure.
34:11And I can quite understand why you would have anxieties
34:12that your children might be targeted.
34:14And that you would feel that perhaps a degree of security
34:18would be available to you for that.
34:20And it's those little things you walk away from
34:23and perhaps don't fully anticipate what that's going to look like
34:26and what that's going to cost you
34:27and how different your life is going to be.
34:29Because if you've got security
34:31and if you've got stuff that comes with that,
34:33you know, kind of private jets or whatever,
34:35that's not a cheap life, is it?
34:39It's a very expensive life.
34:40I don't know how much you need to earn to live that sort of a life,
34:43but it's pretty hard to do that, I think.
34:44I think the security bill-
34:45Take more than jam.
34:46No, for sure.
34:48Or spread.
34:49Or spread.
34:50Spread.
34:51Spread.
34:53Or the sparkling.
34:56No, Emily, stop the accents now.
34:58Or the sparkling brute.
35:00She keeps calling it brute.
35:00I'm like, it's bubbles.
35:01What are you doing, love?
35:02Anyway, their security bill is about 2 million a year.
35:05So you can completely understand why Harry has mounted this huge campaign.
35:12It is a campaign.
35:13It's a military man campaign to get his metropolitan police security reinstated.
35:20But if, as is indicated currently, he does get that reinstated,
35:26that's going to be a huge cost to the British taxpayer.
35:28That, by the way, the security doesn't come out of the Sovereign Grant.
35:32That's out of us.
35:32It comes out of the Metropolitan Police budget.
35:35Yeah, yeah.
35:35Because the Metropolitan Police, which for those metropolitan police,
35:39it's London's police force, and they have a special security operation
35:43which protect VIPs, not just the royals, but, you know,
35:47the prime minister and senior.
35:49Got a hypothetical for you.
35:51Go for it.
35:52In the event of some international outrage,
35:55not an unimaginable situation.
35:58The head of state might be compromised by the kidnap of his grandchildren.
36:03Yeah?
36:05It's bad, isn't it?
36:06That could be really, really bad.
36:07It is.
36:07God, that gives me...
36:08That makes me...
36:10Actually, that's given me a physical reaction.
36:11But before we go, one question for you.
36:16Which of the following unusual facilities can be found inside Buckingham Palace?
36:22An ATM, a post office, or a police station?
36:26We'll be back after this.
36:32Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
36:35Before the break, I asked which of the following unusual facilities
36:38can be found inside Buckingham Palace.
36:40An ATM, a post office, or a police station?
36:43What do you reckon, Richard?
36:45Police station.
36:46Well, you're right, but...
36:48All of them.
36:50All of them.
36:50And I've seen all of them inside Buckingham Palace.
36:53And...
36:53Who do you think provides the ATM inside BP?
36:57I want to say Coots & Coots.
36:58You are absolutely correct.
37:00Yes!
37:00It's a Coots ATM.
37:02It's a free standing.
37:04It's something.
37:04I actually used it just so that I could, you know, say
37:07that I had used the cash machine in Buckingham Palace.
37:10It's part of the NatWest group, actually, now.
37:12Is it?
37:13Yeah.
37:13I bet your account's with Coots, isn't it?
37:15It's not.
37:16No.
37:16But it will be.
37:17It's with another member of the NatWest group.
37:19NatWest.
37:19There you are.
37:20I'm very excited because I've got the red box here.
37:23It's your turn.
37:24This is viewers' questions.
37:26Yes.
37:26The most important bit of the show.
37:28Right.
37:28Let's have a little look.
37:29Okay.
37:32I've made a mess of it.
37:33Hang on.
37:34There we go.
37:34Careful of your mic.
37:35Oh!
37:36Oh, relevant.
37:37This is from Maisie.
37:38Okay.
37:39And she asks, has Harry's public image taken a turn for the worse since he no longer
37:43has access to the palace aids?
37:46Oh, good question, Maisie.
37:49I mean, if you look at the opinion polls, his popularity has really nosedived.
37:54And as has Meghan's.
37:56I mean, he used to be one of the most popular members of the royal family.
37:59And I remember writing that Prince Harry was the one member of the royal family you'd
38:04love to go down the pub with.
38:05But the only one you can imagine going to have a pint.
38:07Yeah, have a pint.
38:07Although one time did have to buy him a drink.
38:10He didn't buy me a drink.
38:11Hey, hey, hey, hey.
38:12More on that, please.
38:13Oh, we were in Chile and on a royal tour.
38:20And on royal tours, it's kind of, it's sort of like convention that if you go and follow
38:28them around and report on what they're doing, then there's a private drinks reception.
38:36And we got to the bar and Harry is a delight.
38:41He's so fun.
38:42He's exactly, well, he was anyway.
38:43I think he lost a bit of his joie de vivre before he left the UK.
38:47I really hope he's got it back now.
38:49But he was so fun.
38:50He's like Tigger, bounding around.
38:52And he was like, hey, Em, he comes into the bar.
38:55I said, oh, hi, Harry.
38:56I said, oh.
38:57And he's like, oh, have you got a drink?
38:58I said, oh, have you not got a drink?
38:59He said, oh, I'll get you a drink.
39:01I'll buy you a drink.
39:02And I went, oh, thanks so much.
39:04I'll have half a pint or whatever.
39:06I can't remember what it was, whatever the local lager is.
39:08Did you think that it was an unusual thing that someone offered to buy a pint?
39:12I don't know.
39:14I think that they probably don't think that much about who is paying for things.
39:23I've certainly been on royal tours where William and Kate were in Bhutan and William and Kate wanted to buy
39:29some jewellery, I think, at the foot of the Tiger's Monastery and they didn't have any cash.
39:34And equally, Charles, when he loves to go to a local market on tour, he doesn't have any cash.
39:39Now, you can kind of understand that because they're in almost like a bubble when they're on tour.
39:44So who has time to go and change your tenner?
39:48You don't go to a cash point, even though there is one in Buckingham.
39:50Even though there is a cash point in Buckingham Palace, but that's probably giving out pounds.
39:53It's not giving out euros or I can't remember the currency in Bhutan now.
39:58So I think that's kind of understandable. But I think maybe the sense that I always got, even with Harry
40:04and William, who are very down to earth, was that they were always kind of used to people paying for
40:10them.
40:10Yeah. I suppose if things come your way, you don't really think about it that much.
40:15And also, I suppose you have to remember that, and this is part of the reason, I think, for Harry
40:21and Meghan leaving the royal family, that they were effectively being paid for by dad.
40:27So, you know, we've been talking this episode about funding.
40:32Then we talked about the monarch's funding. We talked about the Prince of Wales' funding as the heir to the
40:36throne.
40:37When Harry and William were growing up, it was their dad who was paying for everything for them.
40:42Fine when they were at Eton. Fine when they were in their military and at Sandhurst.
40:48But then when they were men in their late 20s and early 30s, they couldn't earn their own money because
40:54they were working royals.
40:55And they had to rely on handouts for dad.
40:58And particularly when they both started their own families, William with Kate and Harry with Meghan.
41:04Then, you know, when you start your own family, you want your independence.
41:09You might have children. You've got to have a bigger, you know, all that kind of thing to continually have
41:13to kind of ask your dad.
41:15It's quite embarrassing, isn't it?
41:16I don't know. It's just such an unimaginably weird life to me.
41:19Yeah, it is.
41:20And also one that's, I can quite understand why you would not want to shine light upon it when so
41:24many people are struggling to pay bills, right?
41:26Well, and also in a cost of living crisis, I think it doesn't behove the family in a particularly good
41:32light to be seen as unimaginably wealthy.
41:36And for Harry, so I think we have to, so to Maisie's question, which was, has the loss of the
41:41courtiers kind of served Harry a disservice?
41:45I mean, I think it just depends on, on who your staff are. I mean, infamously, Meghan and Harry can't
41:53keep hold of their staff that quickly.
41:56They, they do seem to go through staff quite quickly.
42:00And the Duchess of difficult.
42:03The Duchess difficult. Yes.
42:04And I think if the really, really good members of staff, and this was probably the same with celebrities, right?
42:11You would know this better than me, but because of course you are an A-list celeb, Rich.
42:15But it depends on the calibre of the people around you.
42:18But crucially, they have to be able to stand up to and say no to their employer, whilst also doing
42:25that in a way that they still have the confidence and trust of their employer who is ultimately paying their
42:31wage.
42:31It's quite a difficult balancing act, isn't it?
42:34It's a very difficult one.
42:35And I imagine to have somebody, it's essential to have someone in your corner who has the power and the
42:41trust to tell you the difficult stuff you need to hear.
42:44If you don't have that, you're really lacking something.
42:47For me, that's why Harry and Meghan's strategy, or on the face of it, lack of strategy, becomes so explicable.
42:59Yeah.
42:59Because I think that they've gone from being in my Andrews Venn diagram in the middle, being royal, with all
43:06the associations that that comes with it, to moving out to America, to becoming just in inverted commas, celebs.
43:13Now, that's great.
43:16But I think they've had a lot of yes people around them.
43:20And also if, as I mean, Meghan's always denied all the bullying claims, it's got to be said.
43:25But if it is correct, then it's quite difficult to tell her what she doesn't want to hear.
43:31Do you know what else has run out? Time.
43:34Are we talking too long again?
43:36I think so.
43:37Well, we could talk about this for hours and hours and hours, but we haven't got any time left and
43:40we have to say goodbye.
43:42We do.
43:43Well, don't forget everybody that you can send your questions.
43:45We love the questions.
43:47So please send more of your questions to royals at spirit-studios.com.
43:53We love the questions.
43:54Keep coming.
43:56That's all for now.
43:56We'll be with you every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts, over on our YouTube channel,
44:02where you can stream us now on five.
44:04So until we meet again, it's goodbye from me.
44:07And goodbye from me.
44:09Goodbye from me.
44:27Whenradic.
44:27I've already talked about this.
44:27I've been trying to answer that question for this thread.
44:27I know.
44:27You have to name right in the middle ofๆ.
44:28That's like crazy stuff.
44:28I thought that was not the best.
44:28You
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