- 2 months ago
Kevin Smith went from making art to being the art and learned the hard way that when you become the product, there's no off switch. In this episode, Smith breaks down how he's stayed relevant for 30 years by treating fans like the bosses they actually are. Plus: Jason shares how he once convinced his college to spend their full year's speaker budget just to get Kevin Smith on campus and what happened when they talked afterward.
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00:00I figured out how to become me for a living.
00:02Yeah.
00:02And I went from being an artist who makes art to being the art.
00:07It was very liberating, incredibly liberating,
00:10and freeing in as much as nobody owns me.
00:15I get to do whatever I want.
00:17You're full control of it.
00:17It was great, but the problem,
00:19as long as you're willing to pay this price,
00:22you're on from the moment you wake up
00:24until the moment you go to sleep.
00:25There is no off.
00:26There's no vacation.
00:27You are the job.
00:29Running a business means solving problems.
00:31I tell you how the smartest entrepreneurs do it.
00:34Hi, I'm Jason Pfeiffer,
00:35Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine,
00:37and this is Problem Solvers.
00:43Holy shit, Kevin Smith.
00:44It is so exciting to be here with you.
00:46That means the world, man.
00:48Very rarely do people start the conversation with me anymore.
00:51Holy shit, Kevin Smith.
00:53So right then and there,
00:54we know we're going in a fun direction.
00:56We are.
00:57There is no better way to start than holy shit,
01:01and you'll understand that better from me in a minute.
01:04Okay.
01:06I want to talk to you loosely about connecting with people,
01:10connecting with audiences,
01:12having a voice that you can reach people with,
01:15which is so important from your world of storytelling,
01:18but also any entrepreneur building anything
01:21has to be able to connect with people.
01:22And I want to do possibly another thing
01:28that people don't do with you very often,
01:29which is to tell you the reason that I want to talk to you
01:32by having you tell me a quick story.
01:34Okay.
01:35Which is that I heard you on a podcast a little bit ago
01:39when you were talking about being in Florida with your dad and-
01:44Peter Marshall.
01:45Running into Peter Marshall.
01:46I can tell you that story.
01:48And the impact that that had on you,
01:50that little moment.
01:50Can you tell me that?
01:51Absolutely.
01:51So people can hear it.
01:52So my dad and I are,
01:57you know, let me see,
01:59I'm five, six.
02:00First time we went to Florida, I was five.
02:02So I'm either five or six.
02:05We drive down to Florida from Jersey.
02:09We were born and raised in New Jersey.
02:11First time we go to Disney World.
02:14And when we get there, you know,
02:18we don't stay at like the park.
02:20Like we're staying kind of off strip, you know,
02:24at your La Quinta's or whatever.
02:26Where people can actually afford to stay.
02:28Exactly.
02:28A hundred percent.
02:29Like it was a miracle that like on my father's postal clerk salary,
02:33that my mom was able to get five of us to Jersey and tickets.
02:38I'm from Jersey to Florida and tickets to the park.
02:41So from a young age, we were, you know,
02:44like the contemporary hotel, which is a big landmark there.
02:49The Polynesian village, the resort there.
02:52We could go, you know, and, and walk around.
02:56And even my parents would be like, go in the pool.
02:58If anybody says anything, we'll take care of, you know,
03:01but we would never stay there.
03:02So we went to the Polynesian village and my dad took me on.
03:07They had these little boats called the water, water,
03:09a water mouse or multiples would be water mice.
03:12Yeah.
03:13And, you know, I was too young to drive, but my dad could drive.
03:16And so I was sitting next to him.
03:17I got the vest in case you fall into the lake and stuff.
03:21And we get back in.
03:22It's like a half an hour trip around.
03:25You can go as many times as you want around the lake.
03:28We pull into the dock and get out and walking up the dock and coming toward us on the other
03:34end of the dock is Peter Marshall.
03:37And for those unfamiliar, Peter Marshall was the host of Hollywood Squares at a time when there were only three
03:44networks, ABC, CBS, and NBC,
03:47and then syndicated, usually two syndicated channels per market or something like that.
03:52So there was no internet.
03:55That was all the TV that existed.
03:57They only released one movie a month in most cases.
04:01So if you were on TV, even in the capacity of, like, game show host.
04:09Yeah.
04:09You were super fucking famous.
04:11Beyond famous.
04:12Like, fucking, like, you might as well be seeing Christ himself walking down the dock.
04:17It was Peter Marshall.
04:19So, you know, I say to my dad, and I'm holding my dad's hand, and I go, that's Peter Marshall.
04:25And my dad yanks my hand and goes, shh.
04:27Like, because he never wanted to be embarrassed.
04:29And so Peter Marshall coming down the dock, and we're coming right toward Peter Marshall.
04:34And just as we're about to pass Peter Marshall, my father, like, just, like, confident as fuck.
04:39He's like, hey, Peter.
04:40And Peter Marshall goes, hello.
04:44And that, like, blew me away.
04:46And so as we got past him, I said, you know Peter Marshall?
04:48And my dad goes, no, I know his name, though.
04:50And I said his name.
04:51Now, Peter Marshall could have been, like, any number of people I have encountered in this business.
04:58I've been in this business 32 years.
05:00Now, I wouldn't have hated Peter Marshall if he didn't respond to my dad.
05:04At age five, I guess that would have made sense.
05:06Like, you know, oh, he's famous or whatever the fuck.
05:09The fact that that guy said hello back blew me away, man, and set the tone for the rest of
05:15my life.
05:16So even then, at age five, there's no way on earth I knew, like, I would grow up to be
05:20who I'd grow up to be, and neither did my father.
05:21So he wasn't trying to impart any important lesson.
05:25But what I took from it was just, like, I, 55, that happened 50 fucking years ago, and I could
05:31still tell you that story vividly as if it happened two days ago.
05:35Obviously, it made an impression.
05:36So when I came into my own, you know, when Clerks happened, when I started having a following instantly, that
05:45any interaction I had with famous people runs through my head.
05:49And you want to provide the dream for people.
05:52Now I was going to be on the other side of that transaction.
05:55I would forever be, because of the movies I made, the person coming at that kid on the dock, who's
06:02like, that's him.
06:04I've been, breathed rarefied air in this job for 32 years.
06:09Like, you know, and I'm reminded of it all the time whenever we're in Manhattan, as we are today.
06:13But wait.
06:14Go ahead.
06:14Now, here's where.
06:15Here's where, here's, here's the reason for the Peter Marshall story.
06:18Okay.
06:18Because I have a story like that, except instead of Peter Marshall, it's Kevin Smith.
06:23Fuck out of here.
06:24So, ready?
06:24I'm about to roll tears.
06:26This is beautiful.
06:27So this is what, this is, when I heard that story.
06:30Wait, was I a good guy?
06:31Yeah.
06:32All right.
06:32Spoilers.
06:33Yeah.
06:33He was a good guy.
06:33Because I'm like, wait a second, perhaps.
06:35Yeah, no, then it wouldn't be a Peter Marshall story.
06:36I'm assuming I'm a good guy, but you're like, and you were the biggest fucking cop.
06:39Come here to fucking roast you today.
06:41Look at all of this.
06:42This is where it ends, Kevin Smith.
06:43You have none of this, and I brought you here to show you what a failure you are.
06:47I stripped everything away.
06:48Whoa, shit.
06:49So, all right.
06:50I've been on that podcast.
06:51I've been.
06:53Here's the story.
06:55I was one of those people that saw Mallrats in the theater.
06:58I was in high school.
06:59Are you serious?
07:00And I fucking loved it.
07:00You were one of only, and just to give people context, Mallrats opened on about 500 screens.
07:05And when our opening weekend gross was a million and change, we wound up topping off at two million.
07:13Clerks, and we played on 500 screens.
07:15Clerks had never played on more than 50 screens and still managed to earn three million.
07:19It was truly an important moment for me, and here's why.
07:22Because I saw it, and what it taught me was that you can build something on voice, which
07:29I didn't know as a high schooler.
07:31Everything else to me was plot, and this was voice.
07:34I mean, it was plot, too, and it was fun, but it was voice.
07:36And then I watched Clerks, and Clerks taught me that you don't have to wait for somebody to
07:41give you permission.
07:42You can just go fucking do something.
07:44No help is coming, kids.
07:45Go out and do it.
07:46Just do it.
07:47And the combination of those two things made me obsessed with your work.
07:51I became one of those news askew message board guys.
07:55Did you have that on the board?
07:56Yeah, I sure did.
07:57So for those that don't follow, wow, that's deep cuts.
08:01Back in 1995, 1996, it was after Mallrats.
08:06So Mallrats dies at the box office, and I was feeling like real blue and shit.
08:10And somebody was like, oh, my God, if you feel bad, you should go on the internet and
08:13look at the Clerks shrines.
08:15And I said, what the fuck is the internet?
08:16And then I went to the Internet Cafe in Red Bank, paid like five bucks, four bucks, I
08:19think.
08:20They put me on.
08:21I said, can you get me to a Kevin Smith thing?
08:24And I don't even know what the search engine was, but they got us to Ming Chen had a Clerks
08:30fan page.
08:31And that was my first exposure to the internet.
08:34So based on that, my girlfriend at the time, she was in college where they did have the
08:40internet.
08:41So I was like, can you reach out to this kid who made this and see if he'll build a
08:45website?
08:46And that was Ming Chen who winds up being on Comic Book Men years later.
08:50Now, to get an idea of what the ViewSqueue message board looked like, it essentially
08:54looks like Reddit.
08:55It looks like Reddit.
08:55When I went to Reddit for the first time, I was like, they stole our idea.
08:58And then somebody told me, no, that's what every BBS board looks like and stuff.
09:02It was so exciting that you were floating around there somewhere and, and you could
09:09see what one of your fans said and that you might respond.
09:11And that was so exciting.
09:12So I, I was, I was in and then I got to college and then you grew up, you grew
09:20out of me.
09:20No, I decided in fucking Toy Story two, everyone grows out of Kevin Smith and they leave him
09:26at a fucking, you don't even know what I'm about to say.
09:28Go ahead.
09:29I decided I had to meet you.
09:31So here's what I did.
09:33In college?
09:34In college.
09:34All right.
09:35So.
09:35Where do you go?
09:37I'm not going to tell you because you'll know where this is going.
09:39Okay.
09:40And so I rounded up a ton of my friends and we went to the student speakers bureau meeting
09:47where some students were controlling the budget for the year.
09:52And with the specific intent of voting as a block to spend the entire year's budget, bringing
09:59you to Clark university.
10:01Oh my God.
10:02And it just so happened that while that was, while we booked you, you were filming an evening
10:09with Kevin Smith.
10:10That's one of the school stops on, on an evening with.
10:13That's right.
10:14So, so you show up and you're just by yourself.
10:17You just drove to campus.
10:18Yeah.
10:18Cause you guys weren't far, man.
10:20Where's Clark again?
10:21In Worcester, Massachusetts.
10:22So it's like I was able to drive.
10:23Right.
10:24So you show up, uh, you came backstage, you took photos with every kid that wanted it.
10:30And then you went out, then I introduced you and I remember I, you know, I gave this whole
10:34thing about some version of what I'm telling you now, I suppose.
10:36And I, and I used this line that only would come out of me at age 19 or something, which
10:40was, which was fuck Benjamin Franklin.
10:43Kevin Smith is the self-made man.
10:44And then you came out and you're like, let, Benjamin Franklin is a self-made man.
10:48Uh, but, but, um, but then you answered questions for like five hours.
10:53I mean, until literally nobody had a question anymore.
10:56I've never seen anything like it.
10:58And then.
10:58I used to like watching the audience empty.
11:02It was like a Springsteen concert.
11:03It was like, who's going to break first?
11:04The artist or the audience and we would get down to less than half the crowd.
11:09Like we'd start full capacity.
11:11We'd be down to less than half the crowd and it would be down to boxers or briefs, like
11:15that type of question.
11:17But I had, the philosophy was like, yeah, I have no, I'm here.
11:21Like I have nowhere else to go.
11:23And they want to know, like, it's not a room full of people going, why are you such a fuck
11:29hole?
11:29You know what I'm saying?
11:29Where I'm like, I got to defend myself.
11:31So they're all saying nice things and they're laughing with me and at me and stuff.
11:35And like, so that was, oh, I love that period.
11:38There's more conversation coming, but first it's time to pause and play a game.
11:42We're playing tax trivia brought to you by TurboTax.
11:47I'm going to ask a question and then you're going to get the answer later in the episode.
11:51This is an interesting question.
11:53I have to say the answer has shocked me.
11:54So here it is.
11:55Do you know the top three cities in America where dog walking side gigs are in the highest
12:03demand?
12:04And this is a tax trivia question because side gigs create complicated taxes.
12:09All right.
12:09Think about it.
12:10The top three cities in America where dog walking side gigs are in highest demand.
12:14You'll get the answer later in the episode and learn more about filing your taxes with
12:19Intuit TurboTax.
12:21Visit turbotax.intuit.com.
12:24Um, so you spoke for five hours and then you and I just walked back to your car, uh,
12:31which is was, remains a surreal moment to me.
12:34You know, like I had done this thing to bring you to campus and I just, it's just the two
12:38of us and the parking lot is empty and it's late and everyone's exhausted and they've gone
12:42home and you drove away.
12:43And I had a, I had the same thought that you are articulating with Peter Marshall, which
12:48is some version of if I am ever in a position where people give a shit about what I have
12:54to say, I am going to be so fucking gracious about that.
12:58And now Kevin, I, I am because trickle down to that is beautiful, man.
13:04That's beautiful.
13:05Like there's so many ways to be once you're given a platform, if you're lucky enough to
13:10get it as people work hard for it, you're lucky enough to have a platform and that, you
13:15know, we live in a content generated culture now where everybody could have a platform,
13:20but if you're lucky enough to get a platform where a bunch of people are listening to you,
13:23don't treat people like shit, like there was a time maybe, and there's a school of thought,
13:30like, you know, in the eighties, people acted larger than life and like, you know, it baffled
13:35me.
13:35I've worked with some icons of the eighties over the course of my career and there's no
13:40connectivity with the audience and not nearly as much appreciation as there should be as
13:46well, considering it's like, there's your boss.
13:48Like, that's the thing I understood quickly once I got into it.
13:52Like, it ain't Miramax, it ain't Universal who's the boss, it's the audience.
13:58If they're buying tickets, man, and if you work for the audience, they say you never work
14:01a day in your life.
14:02And so when you meet the boss at any fucking job, you're not like, hey, fucko, you know,
14:07here's the 10 things that are wrong about you.
14:10You're fucking like, hey, how are you?
14:12Great to meet you.
14:13Great.
14:13And you're kiss-ass, you're happy to have the job.
14:16So it makes sense that whenever you meet the audience as the artist, be the same fucking
14:20way, at least to me.
14:21And it's the easiest thing in the world to do.
14:24It costs nothing.
14:25And I don't understand.
14:26You know what I still do?
14:27I still reply.
14:28I mean, look, at some point there's a scale and you're not able to do that.
14:31I'm not at that yet.
14:32I reply to every email.
14:34I reply to every DM.
14:35And what I hear from people years later is, oh, I bought that thing of yours because three
14:42years ago you replied to this DM and I didn't think you were going to do it.
14:44It's the easiest thing in the world to do.
14:47And I don't understand why people don't do it.
14:48And I appreciate it so much.
14:49Now they teach it as part of marketing.
14:51And we're in an interesting entrepreneurial time.
14:55Now more than ever, I think people are going to be interested in everything you have to
15:01say because as we slowly realize that the human beings are being shut out of the workforce,
15:07thanks to AI, it's thanks to the very thing they've built.
15:10People are starting to understand that it's like the old way doesn't work anymore.
15:15I might as well bet on myself.
15:17We are entering a very entrepreneurial cultural period of human development because there's
15:22no choice anymore.
15:24Choice is being limited.
15:25You can't just go out and get a job.
15:27You can't even just go out and get a fucking government job anymore.
15:30You know, my old man was, God bless him, worked for the government.
15:33He worked for the post office and he passed away 23 years ago.
15:37But he had such good insurance.
15:38It kept my mom alive till she was 80 years old.
15:41She was still under his insurance.
15:42You can't get those jobs and you can't get that kind of fucking coverage anymore.
15:45So I watched TikTok and I wish I had saved it, man.
15:49And I keep telling the story, but I'll try to, I'm sure people can track it down based
15:53on the description.
15:54There's a gentleman who was like, I'm out of work.
15:56I think it was like 20 months, he said.
15:58And he was like, I've been working.
16:01This is the first time I've been out of a job since I was 12 years old.
16:03He's been working since then.
16:05I was in the military.
16:05I did 12, 20 years in the military.
16:07I've got three degrees, including a master's and a fucking PhD.
16:11He said, I was laid off from my job.
16:13I instantly sent out 10,000 resumes.
16:16He said, I've heard back from only three places.
16:19And, you know, the dude was stating his case about like, I'm fucking doing the work and
16:24it's not there.
16:24His summation blew my hair back.
16:27He goes, in a world where I can't even get a job at fucking Starbucks, he's going, there's
16:33no point for you to not chase your dreams anymore.
16:36He's going, you have just as much a chance of your dream idea working out as you do of
16:42just getting a normal ass fucking McJob now.
16:45Yeah.
16:45So now the option's limited.
16:47When I took my swing with clerks, that was because I didn't want to work for some other
16:52asshole.
16:53You know, I knew I didn't have that type of, I worked for other people for years and I
16:56was terrible at it.
16:57You know, they would tell me like, you're lazy and shit.
16:59So I don't want to work for some other asshole.
17:01The idea of working for myself seemed appealing.
17:03The lesson I learned tacitly from my father as he worked at the post office my whole young
17:07life and shit, he hated his job.
17:09He did it because he didn't care about personal fulfillment at the job career.
17:13He wasn't like us where it's just like, I got to feel good about what I do.
17:17He was just like, I just need a job so I can pay for what I want in life, which
17:20is his
17:21wife and his fucking kids.
17:22But because of that, he was like the sitcom version of a father who's like time to make
17:26the donuts.
17:27He hated going to that fucking job.
17:29And I told this story many times, it was important to communicate, man.
17:32This motherfucker lived in fear of a phone call, man.
17:35This phone call about calling out of work.
17:38Whenever my dad wanted to take out of work, take off of work, he called, tell my mom,
17:41he's like, can you please call in for me?
17:43And my mom would be like, all right, I'll call in.
17:45And the whole house had to shut up.
17:47My father was like, everyone be quiet.
17:48And they go into the bedroom and shit, make a phone call and come out.
17:51And I knew he wasn't getting blown.
17:52It was too quick.
17:52So it really was a phone call and you couldn't pick up the phone.
17:55They were all clear.
17:56We had to freeze as if like the fucking Jerry's might drop bombs in the night or something
18:01like that.
18:02And so once the phone call once was made, he comes out of his room and he's a different
18:06person.
18:06He's our father again.
18:07He's not this guy who's in fear of fucking going to work and shit.
18:10My whole life, I see this phone call and the effect, like, please make the call.
18:14And the call is made and he gets to relax and shit.
18:16The older he got, the more he started calling out of work and shit.
18:20You know, he'd had a heart attack.
18:21He'd had the stroke.
18:22So and that eventually took him out of the workforce.
18:24But like the older he got, he's been working since he was 13.
18:27He won't work anymore and stuff.
18:29And I was the youngest kid and I was working at this point at the convenience store.
18:33So I think he felt like, I don't have to.
18:36I could kind of ease up.
18:37I could slow up and stuff.
18:38But it would get to the point where it would irritate my mom because he would take off
18:41four days in a week and only go to work one day.
18:43So my mom got to a place where she's like, I ain't calling for you.
18:46She's like, if you want to call out of work, you call out.
18:49But I'm not making this call anymore.
18:50And my father was desperate.
18:52He couldn't make this call himself.
18:53So he turns to me.
18:54He goes, will you make this call?
18:55And I was like, oh my God, yes.
18:57Like, I want to be involved.
18:58This is family mythology, man.
18:59This call is like fucking.
19:00What's behind the curtain of this thing?
19:02Smaug is protecting this fucking call.
19:04And I'm going to see the treasure room and shit like that.
19:06So he brings me into the room and I have never rehearsed an actor as much as he rehearsed
19:13me to make this fucking phone call.
19:15He's like, you're going to say this.
19:16They're going to say this.
19:17You say this.
19:17Do not say anything else unless they ask you a question.
19:20If they ask you a question, you look at me and I'll listen and I'll mouth the question
19:24to you and you say it back to him.
19:25But don't respond until I tell you.
19:27So like we were calling the government or some sort of shit.
19:30And then we make the phone call.
19:32And this is exactly, I'm not exaggerating, this is exactly how to phone call when.
19:37They answer, they go, dispatch.
19:39And I go, yes, Don Smith won't be in tonight.
19:41And they go, okay, click.
19:43And that was it.
19:43That's the call.
19:44And my dad goes, what'd they say?
19:45And I was like, well, you heard them.
19:47They said nothing.
19:48And he goes, it's all right?
19:49I said, it's all right.
19:49He goes, oh, thank you.
19:51And he was so fucking happy and shit like that.
19:52And I remember thinking, I can't live like that.
19:57I couldn't be ruled by being that scared.
20:00It's so out of your control.
20:01And being so terrified, so scared.
20:05Like not a different person where he's like, he was slapping us around.
20:08And once he was off of work, he was happy.
20:11It wasn't like, it wasn't extremes like an addict.
20:13Yeah.
20:14But it was sad to watch like, and not like I pity this man, but sad to see the effect
20:21that this fucking work had on him.
20:23And if I could just make this phone call and shit.
20:25And I remember at a young age being like, I'd rather, I'm going to try to write for Saturday
20:29Night Live.
20:31Like I'm going to try, and in that much, I'm an utter failure.
20:34But it was even as a young age, in high school, I wasn't like, you know, I'm going to go
20:39to
20:39college and then get a good job.
20:41Like it was always about like, I'm going to write for SNL or I'm going to do this.
20:44It wasn't movies because that seemed way out of my league.
20:48Even, you know, being on SNL wasn't a thing.
20:50Just writing for it seemed like I could write jokes.
20:52I'd written some sketches.
20:53I thought I was funny.
20:54But like the idea of making a movie, that wouldn't occur to me until I saw somebody else
20:58do it.
20:58I saw Richard Linklater do it with Slacker.
21:00And then suddenly I was like, oh, wait, like if this counts as a movie, I want to make
21:04a movie too.
21:04I view that as, I say I viewed it with a mixture of awe and arrogance.
21:08Awe because I've never seen a movie like that before and arrogance because I thought that
21:12like, oh, well, now that makes it easier for me.
21:14And yet somehow it fucking worked.
21:16All right.
21:17Quick break to pick up on something we did earlier in the episode where we played tax
21:21trivia brought to you by TurboTax.
21:24And the question was, what are the top three cities in America where dog walking side gigs
21:31are in the highest demand?
21:32Here we go.
21:33Number three, not going to be that surprising, New York City.
21:37That's where I live.
21:38Lots of dogs, lots of walking.
21:39Number two, Chattanooga, Tennessee.
21:42I did not see that coming.
21:44And the number one city in the U.S. where dog walkers are in the highest demand is Boston,
21:51Massachusetts.
21:52Well, whether you guess the answers or not, you can learn more about filing your taxes
21:57with Intuit TurboTax.
21:59Just visit TurboTax.Intuit.com.
22:04I think I would have been out of this business a long time ago were it not for the fact
22:08that
22:09I feed the audience.
22:10Yeah.
22:11And it wasn't intentional.
22:12It wasn't me going like, let me groom these fuckers.
22:14It was just, oh, I get to talk to the people, buy tickets.
22:16And that creates what they now call brand loyalty.
22:19Yes.
22:19And I exist in this direct-to-consumer culture that we didn't call it that back then.
22:26And it wasn't like, I'm not being facetious, like we just called it being nice to the family.
22:30But it was a part of the business.
22:32I became cognizant early on that it's like, oh, well, I can invite them to a Volga-thon.
22:37They'll all buy $69 tickets to watch movies they've seen before.
22:42I don't even have to leave my town.
22:43I could have them come here and stuff.
22:45And so I learned early on, like, this is a transactional relationship.
22:51They'll give me their dimes.
22:52All you got to give them is your time.
22:54And I was more than happy to do that.
22:56Like, it wasn't hard because it was like, I'm going to spend time with them anyway because I want to
22:59know what makes them tick, why they like my shit and whatnot.
23:02And so I learned to have this whole other economy outside of what I do for a living, outside of
23:12being a director.
23:13And I realized they can take directing away.
23:15A studio can.
23:16A studio can choose not to let you direct a movie.
23:18They can't take directing away.
23:20I'm a guy who started on his own credit cards.
23:22I could finish on my own credit cards if I had to and stuff.
23:24But when you're in the system, they could say no.
23:28So having something to pivot to, being salesman anyway.
23:33I come from sales culture.
23:34I worked at convenience stores.
23:35Being able to sell.
23:36Here's an action figure of Silent Bob.
23:38Here's a fucking poster signed from one of the movies.
23:42Has kept my career going.
23:43It's giving me longevity.
23:45Not the movies, man.
23:46This aspect of it as well.
23:48And now everyone swims in the same stream.
23:51Like, I saw this video.
23:52I saw TikTok of Lizzo.
23:56And I was scrolling.
23:57It was in my timeline.
23:58And she's like doing a direct-to-camera thing.
24:00And she's going, if you're an artist, if you're a songwriter, a singer, a musician, stop trying to get a
24:08record deal.
24:09It's stupid.
24:09There's no point.
24:10She's like, this is what you got to do.
24:12And I was like, right on.
24:12She cracked the code.
24:13And I'm listening.
24:14And she goes, first, you build yourself a website where people can come find you.
24:18You put your work up on YouTube and all these other social media outlets.
24:21Then you start working direct-to-consumer.
24:23You sell directly to them.
24:25And I was like, oh, all right.
24:27I can learn nothing here because this is what I do for a living.
24:31This is how I survive.
24:32But it's revelatory for other people.
24:33And I'm glad.
24:34And I'm not one of these people that's like, where have you been?
24:36I'm happy that people are figuring it out.
24:38Everybody has some secret sauce.
24:40Everybody has something that somebody else needs, whether it's experiential, whether it's something tactile that they need to hold, something
24:48they could wear, something they could share.
24:52We're going back to a barter culture.
24:55You know what I'm saying?
24:56Before governments got involved in regulated currency, we're about to watch currency explode in front of our faces and whatnot.
25:04We're going to get back to a barter culture, and it's happening now where it's just like, well, what can
25:08you do for me?
25:09And what can I do for you?
25:10And you've got to start thinking.
25:11I'm not talking about, like, you could blow me.
25:14That's existed forever, but that helps as well.
25:17But it's like finding out that special talent you've got.
25:21And people are like, I ain't got no fucking talent.
25:22Bullshit.
25:23Everybody has something to bring to the fucking table, and everybody has something somebody else needs.
25:28That's how this whole fucking thing is designed.
25:31And I'm not like a god person anymore.
25:32I did make dogma, and that's probably why I'm not a god person anymore.
25:35But I do believe in intelligent design, and I think we're all put together, and we're all very different because
25:41we all have the fucking answers for each other.
25:44We're all in this together.
25:45The only way we get out of this is by depending on one another.
25:48And so, you know, that information now, and there was a time you could give it away for free.
25:54Now you've got to monetize it because fucking, like, nobody can get a job anyway.
25:58So figure out what you could bring to the table and fucking go for it, kids.
26:02Don't wait.
26:03Don't sit there and dream.
26:04Don't sit there.
26:05Here's what happens.
26:06People get good ideas, and they're fire ideas, but they don't follow them because the second voice that follows.
26:12This first voice is inspiration.
26:14It's like, you could.
26:15You should.
26:16You should try.
26:16You know it doesn't exist.
26:18The reason you're irritated by this thing is because it doesn't exist, and you know it should exist, and you
26:23could bring it into existence.
26:25That's the important voice.
26:26Seize that.
26:27Ride that all the way to success.
26:29Or not even success.
26:31And it depends on what your idea of success is.
26:33But just making a thing that didn't exist before is success.
26:36Don't listen to the second voice.
26:38The second voice is like, ah.
26:41Right.
26:41There are all sorts of reasons why this isn't going to work, why somebody's not going to like this.
26:44Somebody would have done that if this would have worked before.
26:47Fuck that voice, man.
26:49Just what they say, feed the right wolf.
26:51Feed that fucking first wolf because it will take you fucking far.
26:55Inspiration and passion, these aren't just art school fucking figures of speech in terms of art.
27:01They matter in the fucking recipe.
27:04Like, you need that because that's what separates you from the people who aren't going to take it the next
27:10step.
27:10That's why you get to be the first.
27:12Because they're, believe me, you have not had an idea that somebody else has not had.
27:17The difference is you're going to take it to completion.
27:20You're going to bring it into reality.
27:22You're going to take whimsy and make it fucking reality.
27:25That's what an entrepreneur does.
27:27And that's the closest thing to fucking magic that exists.
27:30It's taking words and making it into a physical form.
27:34Something that can be purchased, owned, bought, worn, or something like that.
27:37We don't have real magic in the world, kids.
27:40Like, fucking, you know, Harry Potter is a wonderful fucking story.
27:42But alchemy does not fucking exist.
27:45But it does exist for the entrepreneur who takes a fucking idea, an idea, something you can't even fucking touch,
27:52and turns it into actual gold, turns it into a way to heat their home, to put clothes on their
27:58fucking back, man.
28:00Like, that's important.
28:02And now more than ever, it's important.
28:04It's something that I used to be a fan of doing, and it made the difference in my life and
28:07stuff.
28:08And I've been proselytizing for it ever since.
28:10But now, you don't have the luxury of going like, yeah, that sounds fun.
28:15Do it.
28:16Like, if you've got an idea, fucking do it before somebody else does it first.
28:19First, because we're getting to that place where everybody is going to start fucking stepping up to the table.
28:25Because what choices do they have?
28:26Yeah.
28:26And that was beautiful.
28:29The thing.
28:29I figured this was the forum.
28:31This was definitely the forum.
28:32That is going to resonate with a lot of people.
28:34And I just love everything.
28:36Can I add one more thing to that?
28:37Please, go.
28:38And if you're successful, let me wet my beak a little.
28:42If those words drove you toward your fortune, just a little taste of it.
28:47I realized my whole life I've been giving shit out for free that Tony Robbins sells.
28:51Oh, he sells for a lot of money.
28:53A lot of fucking money, man.
28:54A lot of money.
28:54You know what?
28:55Before there was a Tony Robbins, I went to a thing long back in the day, 60s, 70s.
29:00It used to be this self-help awareness fucking seminar program called EST, Earhart Seminar Training.
29:07And that guy wound up going to jail, I think, Warren Earhart.
29:09But his technology, he called it, like the you can do things, he sold to an organization called Landmark.
29:16And Landmark Education, and they had these things called the Landmark Forum.
29:21So in 19, my sister, she used to go to them and stuff.
29:24Some people consider them culty and shit.
29:26But I've never been to a Tony Robbins thing, but they sound exactly like a Tony Robbins thing.
29:31Their whole thing is, in three days, we'll break and remake you.
29:34And so my sister would always be like, you should go to this.
29:37I'd be like, no, I ain't into that.
29:39When I was making clerks, I was at my absolute lowest, right?
29:42Because I spent all this money on my credit cards.
29:44I didn't know if I was going to work.
29:45I was broken up with my high school girlfriend and shit like that.
29:48And I didn't know.
29:49I moved out of my parents' house.
29:51I was 23.
29:52That was the first time I did.
29:53And so my sister hit me at a time where I was like, you know what?
29:57She was like, well, you should really go to the forum.
29:59I was like, all right, I'll try.
30:00And I went because she paid for it.
30:02And they weren't wrong.
30:03They broke me and remade me in three days.
30:06You know, and a lot of it is that shit that Tony Robbins sells.
30:11It's just self-actualization.
30:12Absolutely.
30:12It's not revolutionary.
30:13It's, you know, who was it?
30:15Somebody, Jimmy James on news radio once said, I pay an actor to paraphrase the opening monologue from Patton.
30:23Like, that's an inspiration.
30:26That's what those people kind of do.
30:27Sure.
30:28So those cats are smarter than me because they know how to charge for it.
30:31They're like, oh, I got the secret, but you give me 150 bucks and spend three days with me.
30:36I don't know if it's a secret.
30:38And that's the thing.
30:39I've never said that I've had the secret.
30:40But I've always told people this is what worked for me.
30:44Yeah.
30:44And I'm happy to share that information.
30:47I ain't fucking holding on to that.
30:48I ain't going to charge you for it.
30:49I'm happy to share it because that, you know, rising, rising tide floats all boats or whatever the fuck.
30:56Well, look, here's the thing about Tony Robbins is the thing that he is saying is old.
31:03Yeah.
31:03And the message, he didn't create himself.
31:07But what matters is that he's really fucking good at saying it.
31:11Delivering.
31:11And the thing is that so much about entrepreneurship is not just about the idea, it's the execution.
31:19How do you do it?
31:20And you said this thing earlier in this monologue that I love so much, which was they could take this
31:29away from you.
31:29They could take that away from you, right?
31:30Like a studio could say, we're never going to work with you again.
31:32But you know what they can't take away from you is you.
31:36They can't take you away from you, which means that if you turn yourself into an asset that other people
31:41want, that they'll pay for, then you have control of your future.
31:46I'll tell you the good and the bad of that because that's what I did.
31:48I figured out at a certain point, I figured out how to become me for a living.
31:52Yeah.
31:53And I went from being an artist who makes art to being the art and selling, as you said,
31:59I became the commodity.
32:00I became the asset.
32:01I became the thing that I could sell.
32:03Used to be when I did college gigs, I would have to show the movie and then afterwards we would
32:08do Q&A.
32:09Yeah.
32:09I think by the time I got to Clark.
32:11There was no movie showing, it was just you.
32:13The idea was like, we all seen the movies, let's just fucking talk.
32:15This is the part we like the most and if we skip the movie, we'll have more time to fucking
32:19talk.
32:19So I figured out that like, oh shit, I'm the art and it was very liberating, incredibly liberating and freeing
32:28in as much as nobody owns me.
32:32I get to do whatever I want.
32:34You're full control of it.
32:34But only problem with that, I realized, if you become yourself for a living, you're on from the moment you
32:46wake up until the moment you go to sleep.
32:48There is no off.
32:48There's no vacation.
32:50There's no, you are the job.
32:52Pivoting into becoming myself for a living meant that I was on all the fucking time.
33:00And, you know, burning the candle at all possible ends, kids, is no way to be any artist.
33:04Like, unless you want to be like the Van Gogh ear cutting.
33:07Yeah.
33:08So what's the solution to that?
33:09Find ways to stay human, to stay relatable and whatnot.
33:13And you have to live a human life to fucking do that.
33:16You have to go to a grocery store on a regular basis, man.
33:19You have to, like, fucking spend time with the loved ones.
33:24Like, the audience is beloved, yes, but it's like, you know, I'm glad my mom passed away in December.
33:29I'm glad I fucking spent as much time as I did with her in my adult years and made it
33:33a point to do.
33:34Because somebody smarter than me was like, spend as much time with your mom as you can and shit.
33:38Good advice.
33:38The other thing I talk about a lot lately, because it's like, fascinates me, is relevancy.
33:43I had no idea that that's what this job would become, is a never-ending thirst and hunt for relevancy.
33:52Because that's the only way we exist.
33:54The only way we're seen, especially now.
33:56Like, your relevancy to others?
33:57Yeah.
33:58Yeah.
33:58A hundred percent.
33:59You gotta give a fuck about me and what I'm saying in order for me to make a living.
34:03You know what I'm saying?
34:04Like, my dad didn't matter.
34:06He wasn't relevant.
34:07He was a cog in the fucking postal machine and shit.
34:09He would still get paid either way.
34:10Sure.
34:10But I ain't getting paid unless somebody's just like...
34:13Unless somebody really cares about you.
34:14Exactly.
34:15Like, what are you saying this time?
34:17Maybe not.
34:17You know?
34:18And I've been at the experiential end of that, where people are like, especially now in this
34:21culture, as the dollars are fewer and farther between, judicious choices are being made.
34:27And so, like, you gotta come with something that's gonna be meaningful.
34:30That's why I'm fucking slobberingly grateful whenever we're out doing live shows still to have
34:35a full house.
34:36Now, whether that house is 200 or fucking 500 people, don't fucking matter, man.
34:40Because I've done shows where it's like, hey, the back two rows are empty.
34:44And you think, like, shit, man.
34:47I'm starting to say the same thing, because that's why they're able to stay home.
34:50Because they know...
34:51I've heard Kevin say a bunch of shit, man.
34:53I'll catch him fucking next time and stuff.
34:55So when they show up, you're slobberingly fucking grateful, man.
34:59Because that's relevancy in real time right there in the room.
35:03Podcasting, that's why I fell in love with it in 2007.
35:05And did it hardcore for, like, a decade and change.
35:08Because it was instant relevancy.
35:10People were talking about what you were talking about.
35:12You know, I'm curious how you think about maintaining relevancy without diluting your original value.
35:22And here's what I mean by that.
35:23Go ahead.
35:24I'm watching this thing happen with big podcasts.
35:27And no shade to these hosts, some of whom I know well, some of whom I do not.
35:33But let's just throw out a couple examples.
35:36Stephen Bartlett, Diary of a CEO.
35:38That used to be about CEOs.
35:40Now you see a lot of wellness stuff on that.
35:42Because wellness is hot right now.
35:44Skinny Confidential, same thing.
35:45Lots of wellness.
35:45You're seeing big brands that started in one space bleed out into others because that's where the relevancy is.
35:54And I understand that.
35:56And I appreciate what they're doing.
35:58They're going where the audience is.
35:59But the thing that I worry for them is that you start to be too much like everybody else.
36:08If you're trend chasing and you're saying what everyone else is saying, then why are they coming to you?
36:12And so there's this interesting challenge, I think, in living in the creator economy.
36:17All the stuff that we're talking about falls now in language that didn't exist when you were making mall rats
36:22and clerks.
36:23Creator economy, personal brand, all that stuff.
36:25That's what you got into before there was language for it.
36:29Can I tell you a quick story about brand?
36:31First time I ever heard.
36:32The word brand has existed as I was a child, right?
36:35But the way we use it, the way the world uses it now.
36:39And branding is important and your brand and shit like that.
36:43First time I ever heard it referred to that way was with titans of the industry.
36:49So we're going to pitch the Clerks cartoon.
36:52And we had pitched it to ABC.
36:55There was an exec named Jamie Tarsus and she had passed on it.
36:58But then when we pitched it to the UPN network, there was an exec there named Dean Valentine who loved
37:03it.
37:04And he called up Michael Eisner, who was running Disney at that point, to say, hey, man, I love this
37:13Clerks cartoon.
37:14You know, can you make it happen for us over at UPN?
37:16I'd be real appreciative.
37:18And Eisner was like, sure.
37:19And then hung up and he was like, what's the Clerks cartoon and why does Dean Valentine want it for
37:22UPN?
37:23So then we were made to come back in and re-pitch to Eisner himself and to a guy who
37:29ran ABC named Bob Iger, who would go on to be the big dog.
37:33So it's me and Scott Mosher, Dave Mandel, who we did the show with.
37:38And so we were the pitch guys.
37:41And unfortunately, kids, I got to say the name.
37:43So clench your assholes.
37:44Harvey Weinstein shows up for that pitch.
37:46He didn't go to any of the other pitches, but that one he went to because his boss was going
37:49to be out.
37:50Now, this was the day, Monday after She's All That opened.
37:54She's All That was a Dimension movie.
37:55No, it wasn't a Dimension movie.
37:56It should have been, but it was a Miramax release.
37:58And it had done well.
37:59It was the number one movie for that weekend.
38:01And so he was crowing about it down in the street and stuff.
38:04We were like, congrats, you're the number one movie.
38:05And he literally said these words.
38:07He goes, I showed the studios I can make a piece of shit gross just like them.
38:11Never forget that.
38:12With all due respect to the folks who made She's All That a wonderful movie.
38:15But that wasn't my words, the words of the chairman of Miramax.
38:18So we go upstairs and we see the guy who was the big figure in our life in front of
38:27the people who are the big figures in his life.
38:30So we watched Harvey and Michael Eisner interact.
38:33Yeah.
38:33And Michael Eisner said, congratulations on your number one opening.
38:38And Harvey had a variation of what he said to me where he's like, well, we can do it just
38:42as well as you guys.
38:44Left off the piece of shit and stuff.
38:45And then Michael Eisner goes, yeah, but it should have went out through Dimension.
38:51And there was quiet, quiet beat.
38:53And it was weird because that's the conversation that me and Moj would have.
38:58Yeah.
38:58Like, that should have been a Dimension movie.
39:00And so there's a quiet beat.
39:02And then Michael Eisner filled the beat.
39:03And he goes, yeah, he's going, it reminded me of Touchstone.
39:06He's going, back in the day when we had Touchstone, we had a great brand.
39:10He's going, that meant everything.
39:12He's going, then we just started putting anything through that brand, any piece of shit.
39:15He's going, then the audience didn't trust Touchstone anymore.
39:19And he goes, you never fuck with the brand.
39:23And it's just stayed with me.
39:24So that's 2000.
39:26That would be the year 2000.
39:28And then he was the first person who used it in that way.
39:31And it's not like after that meeting, I started using brand.
39:34But when people started using it, I was like, that's fucking Michael Eisner stuff, man.
39:39Fucking the brand and shit.
39:41That's funny.
39:42So I wonder what you think about the balance.
39:46And I know we're at time here.
39:48Take all your time, all the time.
39:49I appreciate that.
39:50But I wonder what you think of the balance between following what might be relevant now
39:58and giving up what made you distinct.
40:02Excellent point.
40:05Well, I can only speak from experience.
40:13People, I've done a podcast called Fat Man Beyond.
40:17And then before that, it was called Fat Man on Batman.
40:20So the original incarnation of that podcast was me talking to people who spent their whole lives
40:26trying to work on Batman and finally accomplishing it.
40:29So it was a real like, this is your life with a Batman spin to it.
40:33Then eventually it became easier to do a podcast that was just like,
40:40well, let's just like talk about Batman stuff in general.
40:44Don't have to talk to Batman creators.
40:45Then eventually it became, let's just talk about pop culture.
40:48And so, you know, Fat Man Beyond does that.
40:51And we're, you know, fucking well-known brand, been around for a while and stuff.
40:56But there's nothing on that show you can't get from a hundred other fucking shows,
41:01you know, with better production values and stuff.
41:04So, you know, I'm not saying we were wrong to do what we did.
41:08But you know what fucking nobody ever says shit, bad shit about?
41:11Like the old shows, they're like, oh my God, I love the interview shows and stuff.
41:16More recent case.
41:18Well, actually, before you move on to that, can I just guess at the answer that's inherent in what you
41:25just said?
41:25Go ahead.
41:25Which is that the thing that sustains that show as it moved away from its original conceit is,
41:37even though now, yes, plenty of people can get pop culture chatter wherever,
41:41the thing that sustains the show is the relationship that you built with the audience.
41:45Yeah.
41:45That's it.
41:46That's the hook.
41:46People like me and Mark.
41:47And when I meet them in real life, they say that.
41:50They're like, oh my God, I'm with you guys every episode.
41:52I drive truck runs listening to you guys.
41:55Like I agree about this and stuff.
41:57The identity factor is still huge.
41:59And whether the numbers are, like, you know, we used to get like 150K, you know, on YouTube.
42:04And now like it's down to like 25, 40K.
42:07Like 50 is a big show and stuff.
42:10It's still the same relatability.
42:13When I see these people in the real world, you would think we were making, you know, fucking MTV back
42:20in the 80s.
42:21Like just something that important.
42:23But to.
42:23Because they connected with you.
42:25And so it's almost there's like an inverse interesting.
42:27I'm coming up with this theory right now.
42:28But there's a interesting inverse thing that happens as a property grows,
42:36which is that it has to start really distinct so that it stands out in a marketplace.
42:40But then as it grows.
42:42It has to homogenize a little bit.
42:44The conceit can widen.
42:46Right.
42:47But, and in a way you could say like then therefore the uniqueness is declining.
42:52But what has to increase at the same time is how much people love you.
42:56The engagement with the hosts of the show.
42:58Yes, that they trust you.
42:59That you started with a distinct idea and that is really an anchor to build trust.
43:04I think you nailed it with trust.
43:06Trust is what it is.
43:07Because you can change the format if they're like, well, we'll go with you on this.
43:10It's not why we came in the room in the first place.
43:12But I trust you and they'll make the journey.
43:15You're absolutely fucking right.
43:17Here's like, like when I first started podcasting in 2007, 2008, 2009, like any podcast I would launch,
43:26I could launch at number one on the iTunes chart.
43:29Like, you know, and I took snapshots, screenshots and shit like that.
43:33So years later, you know, the folks at iHeart are like, hey, why don't you do a podcast here?
43:38And generally I did everything in my own world and stuff.
43:40But I was like, it'll be interesting to deal with infrastructure and see what that's like.
43:45So me and Harley, my daughter, did a podcast called Beardless Dickless Me.
43:50And we wrapped it up after a year because the folks at iHeart did not invite us back.
43:56It feels a little off-brand for iHeart.
43:58Really?
43:58Yeah.
43:59I think they were, I don't think they cared for the title.
44:03But when all was said and done, my kid was like, you know, she's more, and not even to paint
44:12her as this person,
44:12but far more than me, she used the term engagement.
44:15She was like, do you know we had more engagement with the vegan abattoir podcast that we used to do?
44:21And her and I used to do this vegan abattoir podcast.
44:23And so I was like, what do you think that's about?
44:26And she's like, because it picked the lane.
44:28It's about something.
44:29It's about veganism.
44:30Like, you and I just sitting there talking to each other has no lane.
44:33You really got to just want to listen to you talk to your daughter.
44:36She's like, I can't put S's in seats.
44:38So really, it's all about that.
44:39She's going, but when we were doing veganism, like, we had a very distinct lane.
44:43And so we went back to doing vegan abattoir.
44:47And now vegan abattoir isn't what it was.
44:50The first time, it was just a girl and her dad.
44:52And we just sat around bullshitting.
44:53And we talked, and we had some vegan departments and shit.
44:56But now it's, what is it?
44:57Well, because it's video, it's a show where you watch us eat vegan food and stuff like that.
45:02So it had to change.
45:05Otherwise, it wasn't going to have as much interaction with any audience because there's so many fucking choices.
45:12I mean, when we did vegan abattoir, it was only like six years ago or something like that.
45:16And since then, the podcast field has gotten even thicker and far more dense.
45:20So, yeah, I think to survive, you have to adapt.
45:25And I think you're absolutely right.
45:26I think as long as your audience trusts you, they'll go with you when the show becomes this, when the
45:33show starts embracing that and whatnot.
45:36Yeah, I was like, it's weird.
45:37I spent good 10 years as like the Johnny Appleseed of podcasts.
45:41I'd go to colleges and then Q&A gigs and just be like, y'all should start a podcast.
45:47I was like, there's no gatekeepers in podcasts.
45:48You can talk about whatever you want.
45:50You don't even have to talk about all the Ninja Turtles.
45:52You could just do a show about Leonardo.
45:54That's it.
45:54You know, you get 100 episodes out of it and shit.
45:57And I would do it and I met people who were like, I'm on fucking episode 1000 of my podcast
46:02because you said I should start a podcast.
46:03That was absolutely wonderful.
46:05Never would have predicted so many people would make political podcasts because that's not me.
46:12So I was out there going like, oh my God, you could do a podcast about anything.
46:17Thinking, you know, somebody would be like, I'm going to do a podcast about just Mindy, not Mork.
46:21You know, but instead there were a bunch of motherfuckers who were like, I'm going to do a podcast about
46:24fucking politics.
46:26Which to me is like, you know, with all due respect to politics, the least interesting fucking subject on the
46:32planet.
46:33Absolutely.
46:33So watching the podcast audience gravitate toward politics, you know, God bless, do what you want, say what you will.
46:43But I was always like, what a waste of time and breath.
46:46Why would you do that?
46:47You could do anything on a podcast and you're literally going to talk about what he or she just said
46:53or did.
46:55But it's no different than Fat Man Beyond.
46:58In Fat Man Beyond, we talk about geek stuff that we geek out on.
47:02And all those political podcasts, they're talking about geek stuff that they geek out on.
47:05Their geek just happens to not be Batman.
47:08And their billionaires are not heroes.
47:11Let me ask you one final thing.
47:12And that's just to go back a little bit and build off of this insight that you had about relatability.
47:17Relatability, because that is absolutely the anchor of the thing that you have built, I think, is that either kids
47:28like me saw what you were doing and admired it and aspired to it, and then related to you as
47:35the kind of average guy.
47:36You got to play two roles at the same time.
47:38You were the average guy, but you were the average guy who did it.
47:40I was their avatar.
47:41You were their avatar.
47:42One cat said that to me once and I loved it.
47:44He was just like, this is my favorite compliment I've ever gotten about my entire career.
47:48And it came like 15 years ago.
47:50He goes, if I was going to do it, that's the exact way I would have done it.
47:55The way you do it, that's the way I would have done it.
47:57And you realize you're their avatar.
48:00You are doing the thing that they're like, oh, you know, they don't fantasize about being fucking Brad Pitt and
48:06shit because so many things have to be right in order to be Brad Pitt.
48:11But you could see me who stepped out of the peanut gallery and started doing a thing and be like,
48:17I could dream about that sort of thing.
48:19So having people be like, that's the way I would have done it always felt like the highest compliment one
48:27could receive.
48:28Yeah.
48:28Yeah.
48:29But I do know this, too.
48:31Somebody pointed out recently, because I was talking about, like, I talk about relevancy a lot later.
48:35And somebody was like, why are you so worried?
48:38I was like, because, like, I do me for a living and not in that entertaining onstage fucking one hand
48:44in the air, one hand in my dick do me way.
48:45But I do Kevin Smith for a living.
48:47If people don't give a fuck about Kevin Smith, I'm not going to eat and shit.
48:51And somebody pointed out like this.
48:53So, like, you're one of that last generation that, like, existed before the Internet.
48:59And you were also part of the Internet.
49:02You're dug in to their history, to their roots.
49:05You grew with them.
49:06You took the journey with them.
49:08You entered new media with them.
49:10Like, you are a part of their world.
49:13And it reminded me of, like, I remember when we were on Good Will Hunting, there was a day we
49:18were shooting a scene at the bar.
49:21And we were walking, it was in Toronto.
49:23We're all walking into the bar.
49:24And a crowd outside across the street.
49:26There's Robin Williams.
49:28And there's more than one person.
49:30Many.
49:31So much so that it was the loudest.
49:32Mork!
49:33And I thought they were making fun of him.
49:35Like, fucking, hey, Mork and shit.
49:37Yeah.
49:37But I was like, they still yell Mork?
49:39And he goes, they always yell Mork.
49:42He's going, it'll be Mork for the rest of my life.
49:44I was like, not.
49:46Like, good morning, Vietnam.
49:47He's going, there's some of those.
49:48He's going, but you don't get it.
49:49Mork was in their living room.
49:52Like, Mork was a part of their family.
49:54They talked to their moms and their dads about Mork.
49:57He's going, it will be Mork for the rest of my life.
49:59It's like imprinting on a baby duckling.
50:01Very much so, man.
50:02I mean, I'm glad you chose that instead of Twilight.
50:05Remember how it all went bad in the last book and movie where people were like, wait, that guy loves
50:09the baby?
50:09That's weird.
50:10But yes, yes.
50:11Just like a little animal.
50:12There was an imprint there.
50:13So I'm wondering what, as you think back, you feel like it's the fourth.
50:19The formula or the lesson to pass on to entrepreneurs who are trying to figure out how to be relevant,
50:28consistently relevant to the people that they reach.
50:30Fuck, man.
50:31I mean, look, if you know the secret, let me, because obviously I worry about relevancy quite a bit.
50:38But this is going to sound so fucking basic, but it's in your Shakespeare, man.
50:44To thine own self be true.
50:48You, you know, remember a couple of years ago they made this such a dirty fucking word and bastardized it
50:54and shit like that.
50:55But there's uniqueity and beauty to it.
50:57We're all fucking snowflakes, bro.
50:59We're all so different and so beautiful and so much presentation, different from everybody else.
51:07Embrace that.
51:09Like fucking lean into that.
51:11I tell young writers like, yeah, you can write about fucking like space or a comic book movie or some
51:17sort of shit.
51:18But there are lots of those.
51:19You know what there aren't a lot of?
51:20The story of you.
51:22They're waiting for that.
51:23Like that's what people connect to, man.
51:26Like fucking individual.
51:27That's why I like TikTok and social media took off as much as it did.
51:31Because there's relatability right in your hand.
51:33You can look at yourself, compare it to other people, see where you are.
51:37You can't do that with Hollywood movie stars.
51:39You can do that with quote unquote influencers and stuff like that.
51:42So as we've seen, like, you know, the amount of time I've spent on social media ever since the inception
51:48of social media,
51:49I have watched the business slowly and then quickly migrate over.
51:56Like, you know, where I used to be made fun of for like, oh, Kevin, he just loves to talk
52:00to his fans.
52:01They all learn.
52:02You know what I'm saying?
52:03They all got TikToks.
52:05The whole premise was that.
52:06Oh, my God.
52:07And they're all fucking there as well and whatnot.
52:10And I'm not saying I'm better or anything.
52:12But I didn't go there because that was the way that finance was going or the culture was moving or
52:19that's where the money was.
52:21I went because, like, fucking without an audience, I don't exist.
52:25And so much money was spent, like, showing movies to test screening audiences.
52:33And the biggest part of that was the 50 people they would keep behind and do a Q&A with.
52:38And I'm like, I could do that any fucking minute of the day with the people that buy tickets.
52:43Never mind these fantasy people who came in to get out of the rain and would never go see this
52:47movie in the first place.
52:47But people who I know for a fact are inclined to go see a Jay and Silent Bob movie.
52:53And so I trust it to thine own self be true and lean heavily into that audience.
53:01There was a time in the arts where mystery, you know, was everything.
53:06And the less you knew about a star, the more intriguing they were.
53:10Bullshit.
53:10Like, not anymore, man.
53:12Now it's like, show them what you got.
53:15Because that's how you stick around and that's how you stay relevant.
53:18And you never know what is the thing that somebody's going to fall upon.
53:21And it's different for everybody.
53:23You know what I'm saying?
53:24It's not like, well, this is the one note that you play.
53:27You know, no, it's like, be authentic.
53:29Why not?
53:30Like, that's what got you here.
53:31It never, like, blows my mind when people are always like, I'm sorry to bother me.
53:35When they come up to you, I'm sorry to bother you.
53:36I was like, are you fucking kidding me?
53:38You coming up to me is proof that I was the smartest guy in the room.
53:41Like, it's proof that the plan is working.
53:43If you don't come up to me, I'm sitting here wondering my relevancy.
53:46You come up to me, I'm like, oh, thank you.
53:49I exist.
53:50You see me.
53:52Kevin Smith, you have lived up to, holy shit, as I started this conversation.
53:57It has been such a pleasure.
53:58What a fucking delight to re-meet under these circumstances.
54:01And just like I said about before, like, I would like to wet my beak a little off of this.
54:06I feel a little bit of personal responsibility.
54:09I'll build you in.
54:10I'll build you in.
54:12We all know how much money is in podcasts.
54:16I'll send you the very small royalty checks.
54:27We all know how much money is in the world.
54:27We all know how much money is in the world.
54:27We all know how much money is in the world.
54:28We all know how much money is in the world.
54:29We all know how much money is in the world.
54:29We all know how much money is in the world.
54:29We all know how much money is in the world.
54:29We all know how much money is in the world.
54:29You
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