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00:00:16Hello everybody, you're all very welcome to the show and I hope you enjoy what happens here over
00:00:20the next hour or so. To find out who our first guest is, let me hand you over to our
00:00:24MC for
00:00:25the evening, the beautiful Fred Cook. Thank you, Tommy. Well, our first guests are Kathleen Gillespie and Anne Walker.
00:00:44Hello, hello. Welcome. Who's who? I am Kathleen. Kathleen. Kathleen Gillespie. How are you? It's lovely to meet you. And
00:00:51I'm Anne Walker. Anne, sit down there, both of you now.
00:00:56How come the two of you are on the show? Well, my name is Kathleen Gillespie and I'm a proper
00:01:04dairy care, born and bred. But anyway, my husband was murdered by the IRA 35 years ago.
00:01:16He was named as a legitimate target of war because he was employed by the Ministry of Defence as a
00:01:24civilian worker in one of the army camps in the town.
00:01:30What happened was the IRA took over my home, a group, approximately five or six. It was difficult for me
00:01:38to ascertain how many were actually there.
00:01:42And that happened at 10.30 at night on the 23rd of October 1990. Now, they held us captive until
00:01:52midnight that night.
00:01:54And they took my husband away at midnight. He was chained to a van containing 1,200 pounds of explosives.
00:02:02And he was forced to drive into the army camp that they wanted him to, well, destroy.
00:02:09And he drove there. And the explosion was detonated by remote control. And five soldiers were blown apart as long
00:02:22as with my husband.
00:02:24And, but I'm very proud to say that before the bomb was detonated, he shouted a warning to the people
00:02:34who were there.
00:02:35I'm going to say a bad word now. At the inquest, the surviving soldiers said that he shouted a warning
00:02:43and he saved many lives.
00:02:45And what he shouted to them is, run, look, fuck boys, I'm loaded. And then the explosion.
00:02:55That, that, that, that, that, after that, there was a lot of confusion because the boys who had stayed with
00:03:03me in the house had gone off in my, in, in my car.
00:03:07They took my car. They took my car with them when they were going. Um, and I, I went down
00:03:15the road.
00:03:15I thought that I, I was looking for Patsy. I didn't know where, you know, I thought, he'll be back.
00:03:19He'll be back.
00:03:20And I ran down the road and they were setting up an army checkpoint. And I said to them, have
00:03:26you seen Patsy? Have you seen Patsy?
00:03:27And, um, and, um, I was taken back to the house. And I had to, it was a waiting game
00:03:33after that because there, there were no actual bodies, as you can understand.
00:03:39So, to be honest with you, I didn't believe that my husband was dead because I had no body, never
00:03:45had a body to look at.
00:03:49And until the inquest, which was nearly two years later,
00:03:54I still was waiting for my husband to phone me
00:03:57and take me away somewhere with the children for safety.
00:04:04A lot of things happened in between
00:04:05where I still thought that my husband was alive.
00:04:08I was prepared, packed and prepared, ready to go at a minute's notice.
00:04:13But at the inquest, it was clear to me that he was dead.
00:04:21So Derry's is quite a... I mean, it's a city, but it's a big town as well.
00:04:25Yeah.
00:04:26So the IRA aren't some...
00:04:32They're not aliens.
00:04:33No, no, no.
00:04:35They're...
00:04:35Part of the community.
00:04:36They're part of the community.
00:04:40So you know them?
00:04:44Well, I know I can recognise a couple of the names that are in it,
00:04:49but there were...
00:04:50What made me very conscious of the fact
00:04:55that I could possibly have been walking about in the town
00:04:59because they were never charged.
00:05:01They were taken because they were captured over the border at a safe house.
00:05:06They were taken to Dublin, down here to Dublin.
00:05:09And they were held and then they were just let go.
00:05:14They weren't charged with anything at all.
00:05:16These are ordinary people who did these horrific things
00:05:21and have to...
00:05:25And everybody just has to get on with things
00:05:30and they're walking around and...
00:05:33How do you normalise something like that?
00:05:37So if I bring my wee story in...
00:05:39Please.
00:05:40I was three years old when Bloody Sunday happened.
00:05:42My uncle was one of the people that was murdered on Bloody Sunday.
00:05:45I was living in Wales at the time with my parents, my two-year-old sister.
00:05:49So we came home the next day
00:05:51and we grew up through the worst of the troubles.
00:05:54We grew up through the hunger strikes,
00:05:55through house raids,
00:05:56through harassment by police and British army.
00:05:59We grew up in fear of the other.
00:06:02And when I realised that people weren't getting justice,
00:06:08I was asked to join the IRA at the age of 18
00:06:10and I became a member of the IRA.
00:06:13I've been a friend of Kelly's for the past 15 years
00:06:17and together we share our stories.
00:06:19They affect change in communities, cross-communities
00:06:23and across the world, really, talking to universities.
00:06:26Are you Protestant?
00:06:29No, I'm a Catholic.
00:06:31You might be Catholic.
00:06:32I'm a Catholic.
00:06:33Well, not anymore.
00:06:34I was brought up a Catholic.
00:06:36I was brought up in a Catholic nationalist area.
00:06:42And that's interesting that you get asked that question.
00:06:45Yeah, because I'll tell you a wee story,
00:06:47a wee, very short story.
00:06:49We do a lot of schools,
00:06:51work in schools with 15, 16-year-olds.
00:06:54And we find the children for asking questions.
00:06:58They're unbelievable.
00:07:00Unbelievable.
00:07:01And so the wee boy was called Tom, wasn't he?
00:07:05We sat down to start the Q&A
00:07:07and Tom says,
00:07:08Kelly, Kelly, he couldn't wait to get the question out.
00:07:11Was your husband a Catholic?
00:07:12And I said, yes.
00:07:14Are you a Catholic?
00:07:15And I said, yes.
00:07:17Well, why did the IRA kill your husband?
00:07:19Because he was a Catholic.
00:07:20We thought the IRA killed the Protestants
00:07:22and the Protestants killed the Catholics.
00:07:24So then I started explaining to him
00:07:28why my husband was used.
00:07:32Even though he was a Catholic,
00:07:33it was because of his work and he was being paid.
00:07:37The IRA at the time were putting warnings
00:07:39for the civilian workers in the local media.
00:07:43And it was more or less,
00:07:44get out or else you'll suffer.
00:07:46You know, that's basically what the warnings were saying.
00:07:49But nobody moved their job.
00:07:53But Derry didn't have a lot of work at the time.
00:07:57So I had to explain to the sweet boy
00:07:59that that was why rather than because,
00:08:00you know, it was a Catholic.
00:08:03What years were you in the IRA?
00:08:0686, not long after Pat's sit-out.
00:08:09So would you know who made the decision
00:08:11to kill her husband?
00:08:12No.
00:08:13No, that's not the way it works.
00:08:18I was in an act, not an act of service unit.
00:08:20I was a quartermaster.
00:08:22I had a small unit.
00:08:25And we, the way it works,
00:08:28is that we moved weapons and stuff around.
00:08:31But you don't know what they're being used for.
00:08:34By the time Pat Say was murdered,
00:08:37I was already backing my way out of the IRA.
00:08:40At that stage, a few things had happened
00:08:42and I was questioning my role and what we were doing.
00:08:47And even though initially I really believed what I was doing was right,
00:08:50I knew that I could die and that was okay.
00:08:53I knew that I could end up in jail.
00:08:56But I would discover that I couldn't kill
00:08:58when the IRA sent me and a comrade out
00:09:01on an act of service mission one night
00:09:03to set off a bomb that would kill a passing police and soldier patrol.
00:09:11Interestingly enough, that day I was very sick, very sore headache.
00:09:15And I didn't want to do this, not because I had the headache,
00:09:19but I had never been directly involved in actually killing somebody.
00:09:23I'd been sort of part of the background.
00:09:26Went out anyway to do this operation.
00:09:29And I got very sick.
00:09:31I needed to go to the bathroom.
00:09:33My comrade says, you better go to the toilet.
00:09:35There was a pub close by, but on the way back,
00:09:38there was a pain in my head.
00:09:39It felt like somebody hit me with a hammer.
00:09:42I went round to him and he said,
00:09:44there's something wrong with you, you need to go home.
00:09:46And I said, no, I'm staying here with you.
00:09:48But I got started throwing up
00:09:51and it was obvious that there was something really wrong.
00:09:53So he sent me home and we aborted the mission.
00:09:55But we had been set up that night.
00:09:57The British Army were never going to come.
00:10:00We'd been set up by an informer.
00:10:01And if I hadn't had the brain hemorrhage,
00:10:04which is what actually happened,
00:10:06we probably would have been shot or arrested.
00:10:10But one of the reasons that myself and Kathy do this work together
00:10:14is that in 2009, an American lady came from Philadelphia.
00:10:18She came to a community arts building in Derry
00:10:21and started doing productions.
00:10:24And part of her method was to bring people
00:10:27from diverse backgrounds together.
00:10:29She began with a production called
00:10:32We Carried Your Secrets,
00:10:34or We Carried Your Secrets.
00:10:36We Carried Your Secrets.
00:10:49When that went on stage,
00:10:51one of the first reactions from the audience was
00:10:53it was like watching Open Heart Surgery.
00:10:56Do you know, I have to admit, I'm a bit thrown.
00:11:01I'm sure you are.
00:11:02Because I've always thought that people in the South
00:11:09are not in a position to moralise about people in the North
00:11:17because for the most part, that was not their lived experience.
00:11:22It's the sectarianism and the brutality.
00:11:29And I've always thought that if people decided, in theory,
00:11:34if people have decided that they want to join the IRA,
00:11:38then I can understand that choice being made.
00:11:42But I've never actually sat across from somebody
00:11:46who has said, I was in the IRA.
00:11:50And I just want to acknowledge that I'm slightly...
00:11:52Yeah, gobsmacked.
00:11:53In a way, because I guess that...
00:12:00So I suppose it's hard to imagine that people like me
00:12:05end up in peace and reconciliation and peace processes
00:12:08and becoming best friends with somebody whose organisation killed Kathleen's husband.
00:12:13Can you talk me through the process of joining the IRA
00:12:18and how that would have been a possibility in your imagination?
00:12:23My uncle was killed on Bloody Sunday.
00:12:25That changed my whole family's future.
00:12:27My father was actually serving in the RAF at the time.
00:12:30We were stationed in Wales, about to be stationed in Hong Kong.
00:12:33It wasn't unusual in those early years
00:12:36for people from my background.
00:12:38He was joined to be members of the British Armed Forces.
00:12:40He had two brothers that were in the Armed Forces as well.
00:12:43And my mother had brothers that were in the Armed Forces.
00:12:46But that was the time when it was right.
00:12:49We either...
00:12:50My daddy resigned or we never came back home.
00:12:53But my mother's brother was murdered by the power troopers
00:12:55in Bloody Sunday.
00:12:56We were home the next day.
00:12:58And that was the beginning of a new journey.
00:13:01We grew up as Bloody Sunday family,
00:13:05marked nationalist,
00:13:06marked and the bauxite,
00:13:08marked.
00:13:09So we then experienced the worst of the harassment
00:13:12from British Army and police.
00:13:14House raids, harassment.
00:13:17My mommy got arrested out of the house at one stage.
00:13:19My daddy got arrested out of the house at one stage.
00:13:21And as I'm growing up a young girl
00:13:25and my mommy and daddy are having more children,
00:13:28I'm watching my younger siblings getting harassed.
00:13:32And 13 years of age is when the hunger strikes happen.
00:13:36So I love to do all the hunger strikes.
00:13:38Every year I'm going to Bloody Sunday commemoration marches.
00:13:41I still do.
00:13:45And it was just chaos.
00:13:48I went to so many children's funerals
00:13:51that were shot and killed by plastic bullets.
00:13:54Adults' funerals.
00:13:55There was more wakes.
00:13:56And I lived in a very small situation
00:14:00that I believed everybody in the north of Ireland
00:14:03was having the same experiences as me.
00:14:06And as I grew into a young teenage woman,
00:14:09the harassment that I had been getting
00:14:11from British Army and police
00:14:13turned nastier, more verbal and sexual.
00:14:16And that wasn't just me.
00:14:17That was all my friends.
00:14:19And that becomes part of your normality.
00:14:22In recent years, I've been reminiscing
00:14:25and thinking back onto all the reasons
00:14:27why maybe I did join.
00:14:29And it sort of hit me like a ton of bricks one day.
00:14:31I'd never seen justice getting done.
00:14:33I'd never seen anybody getting any satisfaction
00:14:37out of the campaigns they were having for their people.
00:14:42And I was asked to join.
00:14:44Somebody came to me and said,
00:14:45would you join up?
00:14:47Why did they ask you, do you think?
00:14:48I think, I say it on stage,
00:14:51they've seen more to me
00:14:53than marches and demonstrations.
00:14:56And in that moment in time, I said, yes,
00:14:58I was becoming one of my heroes.
00:15:00I couldn't believe that they wanted me.
00:15:03It didn't take very long for me to realize
00:15:05that idealism, that reality,
00:15:09that romantic dream of me saving my people
00:15:11and getting the Brits out,
00:15:13that there was a whole lot more to it.
00:15:15And it was terrifying.
00:15:18I was also being abused within the movement as well
00:15:21when I was abusing his power with me.
00:15:23So I was trapped in a way
00:15:27in a situation where I'm supposed to be one thing
00:15:30and that's not what I am.
00:15:34There's a couple of instances,
00:15:37like the night of the brain hemorrhage,
00:15:39being out on that bomb,
00:15:41Patsy's death,
00:15:42and a couple of,
00:15:43I got arrested and interrogated
00:15:45and tortured in Castle Ray.
00:15:47And all of that just helped me walk away.
00:15:50I'm sure that I became a liability as well
00:15:52and they were glad to get rid of me.
00:15:55And then that begins a whole other part of the story.
00:15:59What's your feeling towards, say,
00:16:04the man who abused you
00:16:06in terms of justice in that arena?
00:16:15Sometimes in this world,
00:16:17and especially now at the moment,
00:16:18when you look around,
00:16:21women don't normally get justice
00:16:23for that kind of abuse anyway.
00:16:24So if there's anything that I can do at all
00:16:29that has helped me heal
00:16:31and helped me be part of other people's healing,
00:16:34it's this.
00:16:36It's what we do with not just myself and Kelly.
00:16:39We love each other.
00:16:40We're great friends.
00:16:41We have great crack.
00:16:42But we are two of very many stories
00:16:45that do this,
00:16:46that share their own true stories.
00:16:50And these friendships, relationships,
00:16:52working relationships,
00:16:53are born out of absolute truth and vulnerability.
00:16:57Were you able to tell Kathleen
00:17:01in terms of the decision-making process
00:17:03and how Patsy was deemed to be...
00:17:07A legitimate target of harm?
00:17:08Well, just collateral damage.
00:17:11That is also...
00:17:14So...
00:17:16We didn't really talk about that kind of stuff
00:17:18because I didn't believe
00:17:19that we should be doing that.
00:17:21And that was one of the reasons
00:17:22that I walked away.
00:17:23I was horrified when Patsy was killed.
00:17:25Horrified.
00:17:27We were killing our own people.
00:17:29But could you...
00:17:29Were you able to help Kathleen understand
00:17:32why the decision was made
00:17:35to allow him to be killed?
00:17:37No, because I wasn't part of that.
00:17:38Because she didn't know.
00:17:42Patsy was...
00:17:43As I told you before,
00:17:45Patsy was considered a legitimate target of war.
00:17:48And the reason that he was considered
00:17:51a legitimate target of war
00:17:53was because he was being paid
00:17:56by the Ministry of Defence
00:17:58working in an army camp
00:18:01as a civilian.
00:18:02And he wasn't...
00:18:04He didn't have an important...
00:18:05A great, big, important job.
00:18:07He was working in the kitchens
00:18:08as maybe a sous chef
00:18:10or something similar
00:18:12and doing things in the kitchens.
00:18:16And...
00:18:17I think that he was used as an...
00:18:20Well, I know...
00:18:21I'm certain he was used
00:18:22as an example
00:18:24to all the civilians
00:18:25who were working there now
00:18:26at that time in the camps.
00:18:29Working for
00:18:30and being paid
00:18:31by the Ministry of Defence.
00:18:32Right, we'll just let them see
00:18:34what's going to happen to him
00:18:35if they don't stop that.
00:18:37You know, if they don't work...
00:18:38Did you ever say to him,
00:18:40Patsy...
00:18:40Please.
00:18:40Stop.
00:18:41Yeah, I did many times.
00:18:43But he said,
00:18:44well, how am I going to...
00:18:46How am I going to keep my family?
00:18:47How am I going to rear my family?
00:18:49How am I going to keep the house going?
00:18:51You know, he...
00:18:52It was a job.
00:18:54For him, it was a job.
00:18:55He loved the job.
00:18:57Even though he would have been...
00:18:59He would have felt
00:19:00the force of the sectarian oppression
00:19:02and all that
00:19:02and he would have been...
00:19:03There were things
00:19:04we couldn't do in our life.
00:19:06I mean, we had to...
00:19:07We had two cars.
00:19:09Patsy had the car
00:19:10that he used for work
00:19:11and I had the family car.
00:19:14And Patsy had to look under the car
00:19:16to examine the car
00:19:18every morning before he went out
00:19:19because it was a time
00:19:21when they were putting bombs
00:19:22under the cars.
00:19:24And we weren't allowed in his car.
00:19:27We were only allowed in the...
00:19:28But you must have been screaming at him
00:19:30but he could find another job.
00:19:31Yeah.
00:19:32But there were no jobs.
00:19:34There just were no jobs.
00:19:35It's also the case, like,
00:19:36even if you're going up
00:19:37in nationalist areas.
00:19:39My daddy tried to get us
00:19:40to emigrate to Australia.
00:19:41We didn't want to go
00:19:42because we didn't want to leave
00:19:43our family.
00:19:44We didn't want to leave our granny.
00:19:45We didn't want to leave our friends.
00:19:47We didn't want to...
00:19:47It becomes so normal.
00:19:49Your life becomes so normalised
00:19:51within that situation
00:19:52that even trying to get out
00:19:54of that situation
00:19:55is more terrifying
00:19:56than what you're used to.
00:19:58I told you that Patsy
00:19:59was taken away
00:20:00from our house at midnight
00:20:02and...
00:20:04I've never...
00:20:05I'd never seen Patsy after that.
00:20:08Now, there's a wee poem,
00:20:11a wee tiny poem.
00:20:12It'll take me a minute
00:20:13to read out.
00:20:14Now...
00:20:15We'll get it for you.
00:20:15Thank you, Anne.
00:20:19It's very much
00:20:22how I feel.
00:20:23Now, I would like to claim it
00:20:25as mine,
00:20:26that I wrote it,
00:20:27but I didn't.
00:20:28I was reading a novel.
00:20:30I read novels
00:20:31to put me to sleep at night
00:20:32and this was written
00:20:33by a 14-year-old boy
00:20:35whose mother walked out
00:20:36on the whole family
00:20:37and they never saw him again.
00:20:39And I thought,
00:20:40no, that's like Patsy.
00:20:42Patsy was taken away
00:20:43at midnight.
00:20:43I was left being held
00:20:45by men at gunpoint
00:20:48with balaclavas and stuff on them
00:20:50and I never saw Patsy again.
00:20:53So, if you don't mind,
00:20:54just bear with me a minute.
00:20:57Many moons ago,
00:20:58but thereabouts,
00:21:00you went away.
00:21:02Are you okay?
00:21:03Or is your hair
00:21:05a little grey
00:21:05or thereabouts?
00:21:07And by the way,
00:21:09I think about you
00:21:10every day
00:21:11or thereabouts.
00:21:13Do you remember too?
00:21:15Do you get blue?
00:21:16All these years between,
00:21:18what have you done?
00:21:20Where have you been?
00:21:22I don't even know
00:21:23your whereabouts.
00:21:24And did I say,
00:21:26I think about you
00:21:27every day
00:21:28or thereabouts.
00:21:30I just think that
00:21:32because he was taking away
00:21:35a healthy man
00:21:37and he was given back to me
00:21:39in a coffin
00:21:39with bits of bodies in.
00:21:43What happens to you
00:21:45on the inside
00:21:46in terms of reconciliation?
00:21:49How does your mind
00:21:51and your heart
00:21:52and all that,
00:21:53what do you go through?
00:21:55Well, I have a thing.
00:21:58First of all,
00:21:59there's a lot of people
00:22:00who don't understand
00:22:00why I can work with Anne
00:22:03because she's ex-IRA
00:22:04because I have a full
00:22:06standing strong
00:22:08of non-forgiveness.
00:22:10And some people
00:22:11are shocked at that.
00:22:13And people are saying,
00:22:15you know,
00:22:16how can you work
00:22:17with an ex-IRA?
00:22:17woman,
00:22:18yet you won't
00:22:19forgive the IRA?
00:22:20I says,
00:22:21Anne and I
00:22:21don't talk about forgiveness.
00:22:23She's never asked me
00:22:24to forgive her
00:22:24and it's not,
00:22:25I says,
00:22:26it's not up to me
00:22:27to give forgiveness.
00:22:28The one who has
00:22:29to give the forgiveness
00:22:30is the man who's dead.
00:22:32He was murdered.
00:22:33They murdered him.
00:22:34I can't speak for him
00:22:35and say,
00:22:36oh, I forgive them all.
00:22:38One of the biggest worries
00:22:39that I had at the time
00:22:40was that
00:22:41my husband was murdered
00:22:42on our eldest son's
00:22:4418th birthday,
00:22:44the 24th of October.
00:22:46And he's got that
00:22:47to face up to every year.
00:22:49And they were 16 and 18
00:22:52when their daddy was murdered.
00:22:54And ripe,
00:22:56ripe for the IRA
00:22:58to recruit them.
00:22:59And I was terrified.
00:23:01I was scared shitless
00:23:03about if they decided
00:23:05on revenge,
00:23:06what am I going to do?
00:23:07How am I going to handle them?
00:23:09How am I going to work with them?
00:23:10What am I going to do?
00:23:11But thank God,
00:23:13I'm so very proud
00:23:15of the two men
00:23:16that my son's
00:23:17have grown up and they.
00:23:18Mike,
00:23:20we have to wrap this up now,
00:23:21but I want to ask you
00:23:22what your
00:23:24sense of
00:23:26the issues facing
00:23:27the North
00:23:28now.
00:23:30And there's
00:23:31a lot of talk
00:23:31about, you know,
00:23:32oh, we'll have a referendum
00:23:33sometime in the next 10 years.
00:23:35Oh, you know,
00:23:36we will have a United Ireland
00:23:37at some stage.
00:23:40What's your sense
00:23:41of all that?
00:23:44What we see
00:23:45out there
00:23:46on the ground
00:23:47is fear.
00:23:49Fear of
00:23:50a future
00:23:51United Ireland.
00:23:52We see
00:23:53a community
00:23:54that is
00:23:55not looking
00:23:56at their identity
00:23:57and afraid
00:23:58of what's to come.
00:23:59And people getting back
00:24:01into their trenches.
00:24:02I do believe
00:24:03that there's a lot
00:24:03of work to do
00:24:04and there's a lot
00:24:06of groundwork
00:24:06to do now
00:24:07for a possible
00:24:08United Ireland
00:24:08that I can't see
00:24:10that I will see
00:24:10in my future,
00:24:11but it could be
00:24:12in my sons,
00:24:13it could be
00:24:13in the grandkids,
00:24:14but there's work
00:24:15to do.
00:24:16But we are,
00:24:17we are,
00:24:19I am blessed
00:24:20and I feel
00:24:21very privileged
00:24:22to sit beside
00:24:23this woman
00:24:24who's my great friend
00:24:25and encourage her
00:24:25and I hope
00:24:26I'm the same to you.
00:24:27I just,
00:24:27I love you,
00:24:28Kelly,
00:24:28and you know what,
00:24:29and we have
00:24:31been more than friends
00:24:33for a long time
00:24:34because our story
00:24:37together was born
00:24:38out of truth
00:24:39and vulnerability
00:24:39and if we can
00:24:41pass that on
00:24:42to other groups
00:24:44of people
00:24:45which we try
00:24:46and do.
00:24:46Yeah,
00:24:46it shows other people
00:24:48because people think
00:24:50that I should hate her,
00:24:51I should not be friends
00:24:53with her
00:24:53because she was part
00:24:54of the IRA
00:24:55when my husband
00:24:56was murdered
00:24:56and they don't understand
00:24:58how I could be
00:24:59such good friends
00:25:00with her.
00:25:01You know,
00:25:03they just don't understand
00:25:04and then...
00:25:15Don't see the crack
00:25:16would love the crack
00:25:16as well.
00:25:18We do look good,
00:25:19we do.
00:25:20Thank you so much
00:25:21for this being
00:25:22an experience
00:25:23and my daughter
00:25:23is so jealous.
00:25:33Welcome back
00:25:34to the second half,
00:25:34everybody.
00:25:35Who's next,
00:25:36Freddie?
00:25:37Tommy.
00:25:38Our next guest
00:25:39is Mr. Steve Davis.
00:25:48How are you doing?
00:25:49Very, very nice
00:25:50to see you again.
00:25:51How are you?
00:25:51Yeah, good.
00:25:53I was watching you,
00:25:54weirdly enough,
00:25:56on YouTube
00:25:58last night.
00:26:00You've got to get out more.
00:26:01I should do.
00:26:02It was from
00:26:051980...
00:26:052000, 1990,
00:26:06I can't remember.
00:26:07It was the final
00:26:08of some
00:26:10American
00:26:12eight ball,
00:26:13nine ball
00:26:14tournament
00:26:14with playing
00:26:16Chris Melling
00:26:18in the final.
00:26:19Oh, right.
00:26:20Do you remember?
00:26:20I don't even remember,
00:26:21but what really struck me was
00:26:25how
00:26:30focused
00:26:31and competitive
00:26:33and
00:26:35determined
00:26:36you were.
00:26:39And you had,
00:26:39your hair was
00:26:42utterly red.
00:26:43So it was a good while ago.
00:26:45I can still say,
00:26:45I can still show you some.
00:26:50But yeah,
00:26:51I was really struck by that
00:26:52and that's the first thing
00:26:53that came to me
00:26:53when you walked on there.
00:26:55Well,
00:26:55I suppose it's my super skill
00:26:57on the planet.
00:26:58You know,
00:26:58you get lucky
00:27:00if you have one
00:27:01and that was the thing
00:27:02that really turned me on
00:27:03and that was the thing that really turned me on as a kid.
00:27:06This control sport was right up my alley.
00:27:08I love games,
00:27:09but I also found out I was pretty good with a stick and a ball,
00:27:14getting it in a hole
00:27:15and enjoyed not just the fact that I was good at it,
00:27:21but also I love the tactics as well,
00:27:23the strategy.
00:27:25So that part of it.
00:27:25Didn't you used to play chess by post as well or something?
00:27:28Well,
00:27:28back in the day,
00:27:29playing chess was fun.
00:27:31My father taught me to play chess
00:27:32before he taught me to play snooker.
00:27:33And I just love strategy games.
00:27:36So I know you're a big poker fan.
00:27:38Once you get involved in a strategy game
00:27:40on that level,
00:27:42it's fantastic.
00:27:43But the fact that snooker is on both levels,
00:27:45how amazing.
00:27:47In terms of style,
00:27:48right,
00:27:48I sometimes watch footage of Higgins.
00:27:52Amazing.
00:27:53And what's really interesting is
00:27:54there's a classical way of being trained
00:27:57in the sense that this is what you must do.
00:27:59And you were the thoroughbred
00:28:02of that technique.
00:28:05And then you get Alex,
00:28:06who is kind of,
00:28:07there's a kind of a,
00:28:08you'd wonder
00:28:11how he's managing to do what he's doing.
00:28:13Yeah.
00:28:14Given that it's like,
00:28:16he's full of firecrackers or something.
00:28:18It's incredible.
00:28:19Yeah.
00:28:19I think,
00:28:20yeah,
00:28:20I think there's like,
00:28:21yeah,
00:28:21it could be the same for golfers.
00:28:22Some of the unorthodox golfers
00:28:25have some magical talent
00:28:26because they're not by the book.
00:28:29But when I started to,
00:28:30when I started to
00:28:32fall in love with the game
00:28:35at the time,
00:28:35my father was very much
00:28:37trying to learn the game
00:28:38from a book by Joe Davis,
00:28:40the original guy.
00:28:42And he'd written a book called
00:28:43How I Play Snooker.
00:28:44And we used that as a blueprint
00:28:46to try and get everything right
00:28:48because it seemed to me like,
00:28:49okay,
00:28:50I've got the talent,
00:28:50but maybe you need to have
00:28:52the technique as well.
00:28:53But that was the fact
00:28:55that I had somebody in my corner
00:28:57sort of bearing down saying,
00:28:58look,
00:28:58let's do it right.
00:28:59Let's do it the correct way
00:29:00as the only way we knew.
00:29:03But Alex came from a background
00:29:04of probably not having
00:29:05much technical advice,
00:29:08just went with the talent.
00:29:11Sometimes they're flaws,
00:29:12but they also create other things.
00:29:14So the theory books,
00:29:15the rule books of how to play
00:29:17that are written by other people
00:29:19may or may not be the right way.
00:29:21And they may stifle you as much.
00:29:23Yeah, yeah.
00:29:24So I look at Alex Higgins,
00:29:27a genuine genius,
00:29:28and we've only had a few in the game.
00:29:29I would put that genius bracket on.
00:29:32We're all very talented.
00:29:33We're the top in the world.
00:29:35Yeah, yeah.
00:29:35We're all very talented.
00:29:36And then you get somebody
00:29:37like Alex Higgins,
00:29:38Jimmy White,
00:29:39Roddy O'Sullivan,
00:29:40who seem like another level
00:29:41of genius.
00:29:42But you've tasted a bit of that.
00:29:44I remember we played
00:29:44an exhibition somewhere
00:29:45with Hector.
00:29:46Was that Hector?
00:29:47Hector and Ken Daugherty.
00:29:48Yeah.
00:29:48Two wannabes.
00:29:50But you were great fun.
00:29:51You can play a bit as well.
00:29:52Well, my highest break is 66,
00:29:54but I never had the consistency.
00:29:57I'm more from the Luca Purcell
00:29:58school of performing
00:30:00than the Steve Davis one.
00:30:03So the image of that
00:30:06is almost kind of,
00:30:08of your success,
00:30:09it's almost monastic.
00:30:12Do you know what I mean?
00:30:12It's almost like study,
00:30:15work, commitment,
00:30:17perfection,
00:30:19emotionless,
00:30:22not showing any emotions
00:30:24or whatever,
00:30:25that image.
00:30:27And then something happened
00:30:28where you just became
00:30:29this person
00:30:30who was up for a bit of crack,
00:30:32who...
00:30:33Oh, I see.
00:30:34Right, yeah.
00:30:34who just...
00:30:36I think I remember hearing
00:30:38that you...
00:30:39Did you get divorced
00:30:41or something?
00:30:42Did you start doing...
00:30:44becoming a DJ
00:30:45and next thing you're
00:30:47on telly having a laugh?
00:30:49And I'm just wondering
00:30:49what that...
00:30:50That's what it looks like
00:30:51from the outside.
00:30:52Yeah.
00:30:53If you were telling the story,
00:30:54how would you tell it?
00:30:55So when you start
00:30:57playing snooker
00:30:58in a snooker club,
00:31:00you have to live
00:31:02by your wits as well
00:31:03because they are places
00:31:05where every day
00:31:06you get the piss taken
00:31:07out of you
00:31:07and you have to give it back.
00:31:09So all snooker players
00:31:10are able to have a laugh
00:31:12around the snooker table.
00:31:15And so when you first
00:31:17turn professional,
00:31:18I couldn't laugh
00:31:19and joke around the table
00:31:20because that was serious,
00:31:21that was sacrosanct.
00:31:22So then all of a sudden
00:31:23you're in this zone
00:31:24where you're boring.
00:31:25It's great.
00:31:26There's no pressure.
00:31:27But what happened for me
00:31:29was even weirder
00:31:30when Spitting Image
00:31:32decided to make
00:31:33a puppet of me
00:31:36and double down
00:31:38on the boring bit
00:31:39that my puppet
00:31:39thought it was interesting.
00:31:41Yeah, yeah.
00:31:41And the next minute
00:31:42I'm interesting
00:31:42because I've got a puppet
00:31:44and we do a comedy book
00:31:45How to Be Really Interesting
00:31:46and the next thing is
00:31:48it's sort of people say
00:31:49yeah, he's coming out
00:31:51of himself.
00:31:52And then further down
00:31:54the line you're doing
00:31:55on chat shows
00:31:56and you're having a laugh
00:31:57and you're doing weird things
00:31:58and slowly people
00:31:59quite get to like you
00:32:01as you're getting older
00:32:02and they don't feel
00:32:04possibly that you're
00:32:07they've got to know you
00:32:08a bit more
00:32:08and they realise
00:32:09that maybe you aren't as
00:32:10You're a rounder person.
00:32:12Maybe so.
00:32:13Do you have many children?
00:32:14Two.
00:32:15Not as many.
00:32:15You're prolific, aren't you?
00:32:17Six.
00:32:17Well done.
00:32:18I mean, is that difficult?
00:32:21No.
00:32:21Is that, is that?
00:32:22You, you learnt that, yeah.
00:32:24Um, how would you
00:32:26Two boys, got two boys.
00:32:27Two boys.
00:32:28How would you,
00:32:29how would you describe
00:32:30yourself as a dad
00:32:32and in comparison
00:32:33to your, to your dad?
00:32:35Um, well I was never there
00:32:39really.
00:32:39I was on the road
00:32:40so I wasn't particularly
00:32:41a good dad I'm sure.
00:32:42You know, I don't think
00:32:44they, they don't hold
00:32:45any grudges.
00:32:46They're doing all right.
00:32:47But, um, I don't think
00:32:48that was necessarily
00:32:49something that I was
00:32:50particularly great at.
00:32:51It was, and here's the
00:32:53one thing about people
00:32:53in sport.
00:32:54I've done about
00:32:55entertainment.
00:32:56You are, you're a very
00:32:57selfish person.
00:32:59Yeah.
00:33:00I'll put my hand up to that.
00:33:01And you're involved
00:33:02in what you're doing.
00:33:03So from, during the 90s
00:33:05I was still playing
00:33:06professional snooker
00:33:08and, and very much
00:33:09that blinkers on.
00:33:11And maybe it's better
00:33:13if you're not so prolific
00:33:14then you can perhaps
00:33:16dip in and out a bit more.
00:33:18But the like, the prolific
00:33:20winners in, in the sport
00:33:22I know, perhaps they have
00:33:24to be very selfish.
00:33:26Maybe that's one of the
00:33:27reasons why you are good.
00:33:29Would you give yourself
00:33:29a hard time about that?
00:33:31No.
00:33:31About being away from home.
00:33:33No, no, not at all.
00:33:35No, because it was all
00:33:35about, it's all about me.
00:33:38It's all, you know,
00:33:39it's all about you
00:33:39and it's all, it's all
00:33:40about the, the next job
00:33:42you're doing.
00:33:43So I would never beat
00:33:43myself up over it.
00:33:44But if I look back
00:33:45I'm sure I wasn't
00:33:47particularly great
00:33:47in that department.
00:33:48It's an obsession
00:33:49as well, isn't it?
00:33:50Totally.
00:33:51It's thinking about
00:33:51when you're not doing it.
00:33:52Yeah.
00:33:53So that, yeah,
00:33:54the thinking about snooker
00:33:55it was all, it was
00:33:56every day, all day.
00:33:57And when it was even
00:33:58going wrong in the 90s
00:33:59when that bloke came
00:34:00along called
00:34:02Stephen Hendry
00:34:02who nicked all my prize money
00:34:04and all my sweets.
00:34:07Even when I wasn't
00:34:08the best in the world
00:34:09I was still driven
00:34:10to the point of going
00:34:11right, what am I doing
00:34:12wrong with my technique?
00:34:13I've got to go down
00:34:14to the practice room
00:34:14and work out
00:34:15with these little fingers
00:34:16like that,
00:34:17is that better
00:34:17than if it's like that?
00:34:18because it was me
00:34:20that was going wrong
00:34:21not Stephen
00:34:21but going right.
00:34:22So once you're
00:34:24in the competitive world
00:34:25that is hard to get off of
00:34:27and I'm sure the same
00:34:28in the entertainment world
00:34:30tough to get off
00:34:31to say I'm not
00:34:32enjoying this as much
00:34:33you still have to go for it.
00:34:35So I spent most
00:34:36of the 90s
00:34:36practising
00:34:37just like the 80s
00:34:38and that is
00:34:41rewarding beyond belief
00:34:42but on the subject
00:34:43of was I a great
00:34:44family man
00:34:45probably not.
00:34:47Did your
00:34:48did your missus
00:34:50ever say to you
00:34:52where are you?
00:34:53I reckon
00:34:54I reckon most
00:34:55wives
00:34:56partners of
00:34:57snooker players
00:34:58or sports people
00:34:59at some stage
00:35:00have said
00:35:01if it's that way round
00:35:03have said
00:35:04to their
00:35:05husbands
00:35:08I'm
00:35:09pleased when you lose
00:35:10because you come home.
00:35:12Yeah.
00:35:12And that was
00:35:13from the heart
00:35:14and I
00:35:15understood that
00:35:16but I sort of
00:35:17I didn't want to lose
00:35:18and come home
00:35:19because I wanted to win.
00:35:20There's also an awareness
00:35:21isn't there
00:35:21that you
00:35:22you're in your early 60s
00:35:23I'd say
00:35:23are you?
00:35:2461, 62
00:35:24Oh thanks
00:35:25Nah bloody hell
00:35:2768
00:35:27No way!
00:35:29Honestly I'm in bits
00:35:31Steve
00:35:31you look phenomenal
00:35:32Yeah but you see
00:35:34how much
00:35:34what does a make-up
00:35:35woman put on me?
00:35:37Nah nah
00:35:38You look great fella
00:35:39Well you're trying
00:35:39trying to be
00:35:4068 wow
00:35:41trying to be Peter Pan
00:35:42Do you have good
00:35:44personal habits?
00:35:45No
00:35:46What?
00:35:47What do you mean by that?
00:35:48Like
00:35:49a respect for your body
00:35:53exercise
00:35:54Do you have
00:35:56a thing where
00:35:57I need to see my friends
00:35:59I need to hang out
00:36:00with other people
00:36:01I need to
00:36:02like are you good
00:36:03at minding yourself
00:36:04and all those things?
00:36:05No
00:36:07No
00:36:08No
00:36:09Really?
00:36:10And I
00:36:11and
00:36:11well I'm
00:36:12I'm sure I'm not as bad
00:36:13as I would make out
00:36:14Are you just lucky?
00:36:15What?
00:36:16That I don't have
00:36:16all that baggage
00:36:18How do you figure
00:36:19all that
00:36:20Well
00:36:20I mean like
00:36:21we can all do
00:36:22more exercise
00:36:22I have had little moments
00:36:23I started doing weights
00:36:24recently
00:36:25that's a bad thing
00:36:25to do
00:36:26I can't even
00:36:27lift the bar up
00:36:29but
00:36:29yeah I don't
00:36:30I don't go totally
00:36:31off the deep end
00:36:32but
00:36:33but I think
00:36:34it's also
00:36:37maybe
00:36:37it's conditioning
00:36:38to living in the moment
00:36:39being as a sports person
00:36:41it's good to live in the moment
00:36:43that's the best way to play
00:36:46so you don't think about
00:36:47anything in the past
00:36:47you're not looking forward
00:36:48you're just
00:36:49there
00:36:50whatever's in front of you
00:36:51you've got to get that
00:36:52in the hole
00:36:53that's
00:36:54the training
00:36:54I've had all my life
00:36:56I
00:36:57I sort of
00:36:57don't
00:36:58I don't
00:36:58that's how
00:36:59that's how it all works out
00:37:01what am I doing today
00:37:02I'm not planning
00:37:04I'm
00:37:04you know
00:37:04I'm living the day
00:37:06which is really lovely
00:37:07in one respect
00:37:08but I'm sure it's bad
00:37:09in another way
00:37:09so what about snooker
00:37:11for you now
00:37:11as a player
00:37:12don't play it anymore
00:37:13don't need to play it anymore
00:37:15done it
00:37:16don't mind
00:37:17don't want to
00:37:18get the ball in the hole anymore
00:37:19don't see the point of it
00:37:22there's no point
00:37:24there's no point
00:37:25what am I going to do
00:37:25what am I trying to get the ball
00:37:27in the hole anymore
00:37:28what am I going to do with it
00:37:29you should bring that attitude
00:37:30to the commentary you do
00:37:32oh it's wobbled
00:37:33it looks better if it wobbles
00:37:34it's more pretty
00:37:35it's prettier if it wobbles
00:37:36and goes somewhere else
00:37:37then it goes in the hole
00:37:38it disappears
00:37:38oh that would be so magnificent
00:37:40just kind of
00:37:41cranky Steve Davis
00:37:42on commentary
00:37:42no yeah
00:37:43he's lost it
00:37:44he's lost the plot
00:37:45he's actually enjoying
00:37:46the beauty of the game
00:37:47because they stay on the table
00:37:48and gets rearranged
00:37:51what I have done
00:37:52which has been
00:37:53I've been so lucky
00:37:54is that I've been
00:37:55I've started
00:37:56by accident
00:37:57doing some DJing
00:37:59that's been fun
00:38:00but I've also
00:38:00by accident
00:38:01discovered a musical instrument
00:38:04called a modular synthesizer
00:38:06that has loads of wires
00:38:08coming out of it
00:38:08doesn't have a keyboard
00:38:10so you don't need any skill
00:38:12as such
00:38:13but it makes music
00:38:14and as a result of that
00:38:16I've been
00:38:17with my friends
00:38:18musician friends
00:38:19making music
00:38:20and putting albums out
00:38:22I was going to bring
00:38:23an album along
00:38:24to give you
00:38:26as a contrived advert
00:38:28but we've sold out
00:38:30I haven't got any for you
00:38:31sorry apologies
00:38:32but I've had so much fun now
00:38:34making music
00:38:35in the moment
00:38:37and so
00:38:37making music
00:38:39is something
00:38:40that I didn't ever think
00:38:41was going to happen
00:38:41in my life
00:38:42so my second hobby
00:38:43has become
00:38:44half a journey as well
00:38:46I'm so
00:38:47I can't believe my luck
00:38:49is it with knobs
00:38:50is that
00:38:51yeah loads of knobs
00:38:52loads of wires
00:38:53and
00:38:53it's kind of
00:38:54does it play
00:38:54kind of frequencies
00:38:55yeah yeah
00:38:56and sequences
00:38:57and it's a bit like
00:38:58going back to the days
00:39:00of Tangerine Dream
00:39:00and you know
00:39:01big sort of
00:39:02telephone exchange wires
00:39:03and the connections
00:39:05make the music
00:39:06what's Tangerine Dream
00:39:08Tangerine Dream
00:39:09yeah
00:39:11what
00:39:11yeah yeah
00:39:12a German
00:39:14synthesizer band
00:39:14from the
00:39:15from the 70s
00:39:17what's Tangerine
00:39:18do you not know
00:39:19Tangerine Dream
00:39:19no but just the fact
00:39:20that you say
00:39:21with such
00:39:21with such arrogance
00:39:23a 1970s German
00:39:24synthesizer band
00:39:25and that we should know
00:39:26everybody
00:39:27don't
00:39:27do you
00:39:28no
00:39:28what's your musical
00:39:29I went to the
00:39:30Buffy band
00:39:31no
00:39:31I'm not saying
00:39:32they're not
00:39:32because they're great
00:39:32I kind of went from
00:39:34Christeberg
00:39:35into Status Quo
00:39:37into Bob Dylan
00:39:38that's my
00:39:40really
00:39:41never mind
00:39:42never mind
00:39:44never mind
00:39:45I was more of a PJ
00:39:47than a DJ
00:39:48well that's the great
00:39:49thing is you don't
00:39:50you don't need to have
00:39:52music in your life
00:39:53yeah
00:39:53obviously you haven't
00:39:54well I do
00:39:55I'm more of a lyrics
00:39:57person
00:39:57yeah yeah yeah
00:39:58I'm not
00:39:59I'm
00:40:00wow
00:40:02I don't
00:40:03they get in the way
00:40:04they get in the way
00:40:04all that lyric
00:40:05all that sort of
00:40:06deep meaningful stuff
00:40:07I just want to listen
00:40:08to music
00:40:09repetitive music
00:40:10drone music
00:40:11that's my stuff
00:40:11really
00:40:11I just want to listen
00:40:12to drone music
00:40:13so you're like a
00:40:15Brian Eno fan
00:40:15sort of
00:40:16ambient
00:40:17yes
00:40:17a little bit
00:40:18yeah
00:40:18I love
00:40:19I love the
00:40:19even stuff that's only
00:40:21got one note
00:40:21and goes on for ages
00:40:22like meditative stuff
00:40:24of being in the moment
00:40:26so are the performances
00:40:29improvised
00:40:29improvised
00:40:31so
00:40:32I don't want to talk
00:40:33about myself
00:40:34but it feels like
00:40:35that
00:40:35what on earth
00:40:36am I here
00:40:37right
00:40:37what on earth
00:40:38am I doing on this
00:40:39I had nothing to sell
00:40:40right
00:40:40I don't know
00:40:41why I've come on
00:40:41anyway
00:40:42but
00:40:42so the music
00:40:44is improvised
00:40:45yeah
00:40:46so what happened
00:40:46was we start
00:40:47we had a little jam
00:40:48because I learned
00:40:49to play musical instrument
00:40:50with my mates
00:40:51who are proper musicians
00:40:53we went
00:40:53this sounds good
00:40:54let's make it
00:40:55into a record
00:40:55we took the record
00:40:56to a record company
00:40:57got a couple of
00:40:58knockbacks along the way
00:40:59then one record company
00:41:00said yeah
00:41:01we'll put this out
00:41:01we shook hands
00:41:03on the deal
00:41:03and as we shook hands
00:41:05and we were about to leave
00:41:06the guy from the record label
00:41:08went
00:41:08and you will be
00:41:10touring
00:41:10to promote the album
00:41:11won't you
00:41:12and my mates
00:41:13went
00:41:13yeah of course
00:41:15and I thought
00:41:16that means
00:41:17going on the stage
00:41:17playing music
00:41:19so I've been
00:41:20I've been on the stage
00:41:21in a band
00:41:22we played
00:41:23Weelands
00:41:24we played at Weelands
00:41:25I've played at Weelands
00:41:27it's ridiculous
00:41:28you're a conundrum
00:41:29it's ridiculous
00:41:29well it's no plan
00:41:31there's no plan
00:41:31there wasn't a plan
00:41:33to play snooker
00:41:33let alone buy a modular synth
00:41:35but actually
00:41:36improvised music
00:41:37is maybe similar
00:41:39to sport
00:41:40which is
00:41:41you just improvise
00:41:42you don't know
00:41:43what's happening
00:41:44when you go out
00:41:44on the snooker table
00:41:45wow
00:41:45god almighty
00:41:46honestly it's so scary
00:41:47I was more scared
00:41:48of doing that
00:41:49than I've been
00:41:50walking out of the crucible
00:41:51how long are the
00:41:52hour
00:41:53but how long are the tracks
00:41:55how long is the piece of music
00:41:56hour
00:41:57it's an hour
00:41:59we've made
00:42:00we've made records
00:42:01where we make
00:42:02make pieces into
00:42:03tracks
00:42:04but
00:42:05you know
00:42:05when we do it
00:42:06we just improvise
00:42:06for an hour
00:42:08and obviously
00:42:08people are leaving
00:42:09in their droves
00:42:10and
00:42:11no
00:42:13it's a certain
00:42:14type of
00:42:15performance
00:42:16but so
00:42:17but the improvising
00:42:19the improvising
00:42:19is for me
00:42:20it's become this
00:42:21really important thing
00:42:22of in the moment
00:42:23we're all living
00:42:24in the moment
00:42:25so as much as you can
00:42:26improvise your life
00:42:27and enjoy it
00:42:29do it
00:42:29what's the name
00:42:30of your band
00:42:31the Utopia Strong
00:42:36I should have brought
00:42:38you a CD
00:42:39you're full of
00:42:39beautiful surprises
00:42:40Steve
00:42:41really
00:42:42it
00:42:43is
00:42:44a wonder
00:42:45to talk to you
00:42:46and thank you
00:42:47very much
00:42:48for coming on
00:42:48to the show
00:42:49it's been a pleasure
00:42:50been an honour
00:42:51thank you so much
00:42:51thank you
00:43:07welcome back to the
00:43:08third half everybody
00:43:09who's next
00:43:10Freddie
00:43:11Tommy
00:43:12our next guest
00:43:13is Mr. Mike Skinner
00:43:25we're both looking
00:43:26quite existential
00:43:27I like that
00:43:30did you get to talk
00:43:31to Steve
00:43:32about the music
00:43:34the
00:43:35no
00:43:36oh Steve Davis
00:43:37yeah
00:43:37yeah yeah yeah
00:43:38sorry
00:43:38sorry I thought you
00:43:39were talking about
00:43:39one of your people
00:43:40yes no so
00:43:43I've actually DJ'd
00:43:45I don't know whether
00:43:46it was before or after
00:43:47him yeah but I met him
00:43:48behind the decks
00:43:51so
00:43:51wow
00:43:52yeah no he's
00:43:53he's more into modular
00:43:54synths now
00:43:55but
00:43:57yeah amazing
00:43:58amazing transformation
00:44:00think so
00:44:00yeah
00:44:01are you busy
00:44:02I am very busy
00:44:07people
00:44:08when I'm
00:44:12the big lie
00:44:14about touring
00:44:15is that you're busy
00:44:18because
00:44:19actually the hard work
00:44:22is
00:44:23before
00:44:24the tour
00:44:26so
00:44:27probably 95%
00:44:29of my energy
00:44:29just goes into
00:44:31remembering words
00:44:32I mean it's like
00:44:34people sort of see
00:44:35I mean this show
00:44:37that we're doing
00:44:39at the moment
00:44:40is
00:44:41less like
00:44:42rap music
00:44:43and more like
00:44:44a musical
00:44:46because I made
00:44:47an album
00:44:48called
00:44:49A Grand Don't Come For Free
00:44:50that was
00:44:51a story
00:44:52right
00:44:53you know
00:44:53so it's
00:44:55everything that I've
00:44:56experienced
00:44:57had experienced
00:44:59sort of
00:45:00rearranged
00:45:01into
00:45:02like
00:45:03a beginning
00:45:03and an end
00:45:04um
00:45:07and yeah
00:45:08and like
00:45:08the song
00:45:09uh
00:45:10Dry Your Eyes
00:45:11which was the biggest
00:45:13song
00:45:14or
00:45:15one
00:45:15one of the big songs
00:45:16it was
00:45:17um
00:45:18you know
00:45:19I
00:45:20I
00:45:21for me
00:45:22that
00:45:22that is
00:45:24that's a
00:45:25real thing
00:45:25that really happened
00:45:26so I think about that
00:45:28when I sing it
00:45:29but
00:45:30I don't
00:45:31it doesn't
00:45:32um
00:45:34after you've been singing
00:45:36a song for 20 years
00:45:37you don't
00:45:39I don't
00:45:40like experience
00:45:41the song
00:45:42anymore
00:45:43I mean I experience it
00:45:45in the sense that
00:45:45are we gonna fuck it up
00:45:47tonight
00:45:47that's my experience
00:45:50no we didn't fuck it up
00:45:51great
00:45:52who would your
00:45:53so
00:45:54who would your heroes be
00:45:55in terms of live performance
00:45:57then
00:45:57I mean
00:45:59for live performance
00:46:00obviously I'm completely obsessed
00:46:02with rap music
00:46:02and rap music
00:46:03is
00:46:04is just
00:46:05always
00:46:06always there
00:46:07um
00:46:08but for the streets
00:46:11it's
00:46:14it's much
00:46:15I'd say more
00:46:16influenced by
00:46:17films
00:46:18really
00:46:18and uh
00:46:19but when I'm on stage
00:46:21I do think
00:46:23probably comedy
00:46:25is probably
00:46:26like Stuart Lee
00:46:27like if
00:46:29if you
00:46:29if you
00:46:30um
00:46:31if you watch like
00:46:32a street show
00:46:33and then you
00:46:35watch like Stuart Lee
00:46:36it's probably like
00:46:37well I think it's probably
00:46:39fairly obvious
00:46:40that like
00:46:42it's not
00:46:43um
00:46:43yeah I think
00:46:44I definitely think
00:46:45that's kind of
00:46:46it comes from places
00:46:47like that
00:46:48rather than
00:46:48um
00:46:49yeah
00:46:51rather than rap
00:46:52do you
00:46:53is there a difference
00:46:53between the way
00:46:54that you wrote
00:46:5625 years ago
00:46:58uh
00:46:58and the kind of
00:47:00concentration
00:47:01and the
00:47:02maybe the fevered
00:47:04application
00:47:05and the intensity
00:47:07if there was a difference
00:47:08between that
00:47:08and writing now
00:47:11all the cliches
00:47:12are true
00:47:12right
00:47:12you know
00:47:13you
00:47:13you get your
00:47:14you get your whole life
00:47:15to write your first album
00:47:17and then you have to write
00:47:18your second album
00:47:19in one year
00:47:21and
00:47:23and then
00:47:24you know
00:47:24the artist becomes
00:47:25really successful
00:47:26and they
00:47:27they
00:47:28go out
00:47:29to too many parties
00:47:31and then
00:47:31um
00:47:33and then they write
00:47:34the rehab album
00:47:35I mean
00:47:36it's
00:47:36it's
00:47:36it's like
00:47:37all the cliches
00:47:39are true
00:47:39right
00:47:39so I think
00:47:40probably when I started
00:47:42I was like
00:47:43no I'm gonna
00:47:44I'm gonna like
00:47:45write
00:47:4510 songs
00:47:47and they're gonna be
00:47:47they're gonna have
00:47:49a
00:47:49a
00:47:50a purpose
00:47:51like a
00:47:52a table
00:47:54uh
00:47:54I definitely
00:47:56convinced myself
00:47:57that
00:47:59I could do that
00:48:01I could do that
00:48:01and then
00:48:01and people wouldn't say
00:48:03oh he thinks he's
00:48:05better than us
00:48:06or something like that
00:48:06because
00:48:07growing up
00:48:08I grew up in Birmingham
00:48:09and I think there is
00:48:11a sense of
00:48:12not getting above yourself
00:48:13that's quite
00:48:15that's really strong
00:48:16are you
00:48:17quite a principled person
00:48:20I think it's really important
00:48:22to be
00:48:22trustworthy
00:48:23and I think
00:48:24that
00:48:27you need
00:48:28to
00:48:28have
00:48:31good
00:48:31relationships
00:48:32and
00:48:34and that
00:48:34you can't fake that
00:48:36you can't
00:48:36so what
00:48:37you have to be trustworthy
00:48:38yeah
00:48:39so yeah
00:48:39I'm principled
00:48:40yeah I am
00:48:41but I guess
00:48:42I probably don't see it
00:48:43in a
00:48:48a very
00:48:50it's not a very deeply
00:48:52spiritual thing
00:48:53to me
00:48:53it's more just like
00:48:56actually you have to be
00:48:57long term
00:48:59and being long term
00:49:00is
00:49:03is
00:49:03that's kind of
00:49:04that's
00:49:05god I sound like a
00:49:07fucking robot
00:49:07don't I
00:49:08no
00:49:09yeah I'm principled
00:49:10and loyalty
00:49:11it sounds like you're
00:49:12yeah loyalty
00:49:13loyalty
00:49:14I mean I'm obsessed
00:49:16you know that TV show
00:49:17Traitors
00:49:17yeah
00:49:18I'm obsessed with that
00:49:19because I think
00:49:21it's
00:49:23it's
00:49:23it's like
00:49:27it's
00:49:27it's
00:49:28you have to
00:49:31you
00:49:32you have to build alliances
00:49:33right
00:49:34you have to be
00:49:34to be loyal
00:49:36but then there's also
00:49:37a point at which
00:49:40you need to get through
00:49:41to the next day
00:49:42and so
00:49:43you are going to have to
00:49:44stitch
00:49:44some people up
00:49:46and
00:49:47and hopefully
00:49:48you do it in a way
00:49:49where
00:49:52they understand
00:49:53that
00:49:54you stitch them up
00:49:56one thing I've always
00:49:57because I think
00:49:57sorry to interrupt
00:49:58when you're young
00:49:59I mean
00:50:00my song
00:50:01Dry Your Eyes
00:50:01was essentially about
00:50:03the first relationship
00:50:04that you have
00:50:04where you think
00:50:06you're going to be
00:50:07with that person forever
00:50:09and
00:50:11you can
00:50:13you can almost put
00:50:14all of your
00:50:15shit
00:50:16onto them
00:50:18and
00:50:18and say
00:50:20we're going to look
00:50:21after each other
00:50:22forever or something
00:50:23and so you become
00:50:25selfish
00:50:25it's a selfish
00:50:26thing
00:50:27to
00:50:28to rely on
00:50:29someone
00:50:30so much
00:50:31that you're not
00:50:32um
00:50:35yeah
00:50:36and so
00:50:36and then that person
00:50:37walks away from you
00:50:38and your first reaction
00:50:39is
00:50:40oh wow
00:50:41I'm alone
00:50:42I'm alone
00:50:43as you age
00:50:45I think you realise
00:50:46that these things
00:50:47are not
00:50:47like
00:50:48the movies
00:50:49it's not just like
00:50:50I will
00:50:51be there for
00:50:51for you forever
00:50:52and stuff
00:50:53it's
00:50:53real life
00:50:55is
00:50:55is
00:50:57just a constant
00:50:59um
00:51:02uh
00:51:02negotiation
00:51:04of
00:51:05of just all
00:51:05these
00:51:06loyalties
00:51:08um
00:51:08but I
00:51:10I do think
00:51:11the answer
00:51:12usually lies
00:51:13in
00:51:15uh
00:51:16sticking with
00:51:17the people
00:51:19you know
00:51:20I mean
00:51:20I've been
00:51:20with the same
00:51:21manager
00:51:23forever
00:51:23um
00:51:25you know
00:51:26I've
00:51:27I've
00:51:27I've
00:51:27been married
00:51:28a long time
00:51:29so
00:51:29so it's
00:51:31it's
00:51:32um
00:51:33I think
00:51:34it's
00:51:34it's good
00:51:35you get to a point
00:51:36where you're like
00:51:36actually
00:51:36this is
00:51:37we've kind of
00:51:38we've done it
00:51:38you know
00:51:39it's um
00:51:40we've managed
00:51:41to get through this
00:51:42together
00:51:43are there
00:51:44are there rules
00:51:45uh
00:51:46to your music
00:51:47uh
00:51:49yeah
00:51:50is there a code
00:51:51like is there
00:51:51is there a
00:51:53philosophical code
00:51:54or something
00:51:54or is there a
00:51:55well I mean
00:51:55my music is just
00:51:57it's just
00:51:58I'm just telling stories
00:51:59really so
00:52:00um
00:52:01I
00:52:03uh
00:52:04I move around
00:52:07uh
00:52:08in a lot
00:52:09of different
00:52:10worlds
00:52:11and that's
00:52:12something that
00:52:13I mean
00:52:14even
00:52:15even just this
00:52:15now
00:52:17one thing I
00:52:18say to my
00:52:19kids is
00:52:19I
00:52:21I get paid
00:52:22to be
00:52:23embarrassed
00:52:24right
00:52:24and people say
00:52:26what were you
00:52:26talking about
00:52:27you're
00:52:28you're
00:52:29you're a
00:52:29musician
00:52:30and stuff
00:52:30but the
00:52:32the feeling
00:52:32and I think
00:52:34and I think
00:52:34it's the right
00:52:35feeling actually
00:52:36the overwhelming
00:52:38feeling most of
00:52:39the time is
00:52:40is that you
00:52:40just want to
00:52:41get into a
00:52:41hole
00:52:42and sort of
00:52:43um
00:52:44you're embarrassed
00:52:45it's embarrassing
00:52:46you know
00:52:47I DJ
00:52:48I do shows
00:52:50you know
00:52:51I'm sitting here
00:52:52with you now
00:52:54and um
00:52:57it's
00:52:57it's a feeling
00:52:58of
00:52:59you feel
00:53:00kind of
00:53:02embarrassed
00:53:02um
00:53:05and I think
00:53:06there's a sense
00:53:09people
00:53:09most
00:53:10a lot of
00:53:11people
00:53:11are not
00:53:12willing
00:53:14they're not
00:53:15willing to
00:53:15be embarrassed
00:53:16not on the
00:53:17level that
00:53:18you are
00:53:19when you
00:53:20stand on
00:53:20a stage
00:53:22which is
00:53:24you don't
00:53:25know how
00:53:25it's going
00:53:25to go
00:53:27and
00:53:28it's
00:53:29it's
00:53:30excruciating
00:53:31yeah
00:53:31do you know
00:53:31what I mean
00:53:33it sounds to me
00:53:34like
00:53:35the thing of
00:53:36embarrassment
00:53:36is somehow
00:53:37connected to
00:53:38vulnerability
00:53:39and that
00:53:40but that
00:53:40but it's a
00:53:41vulnerability
00:53:41that's really
00:53:42important
00:53:42yeah
00:53:44so how do you
00:53:45keep that
00:53:45how do you keep
00:53:46that
00:53:46how do you not
00:53:47get clever
00:53:48well it has
00:53:49to be
00:53:50embarrassing
00:53:50basically
00:53:51I mean
00:53:51David Bowie
00:53:52says that
00:53:52sort of
00:53:53thing
00:53:54said that
00:53:54sort of
00:53:55thing
00:53:56um
00:53:58he would
00:53:59talk about
00:53:59vulnerability
00:54:00right
00:54:01um
00:54:02but I think
00:54:03vulnerability
00:54:05is
00:54:07I think
00:54:08it's very
00:54:08easy to
00:54:09convince yourself
00:54:11you're being
00:54:11vulnerable
00:54:12you know
00:54:12if you sing
00:54:13a sad song
00:54:14that's exactly
00:54:15the same
00:54:16as every
00:54:16other sad
00:54:17song that's
00:54:17ever been
00:54:18out
00:54:18you can
00:54:19convince yourself
00:54:20that you're
00:54:20being vulnerable
00:54:20but you're
00:54:21not
00:54:21you're just
00:54:22singing a
00:54:23sad song
00:54:23that's exactly
00:54:24the same
00:54:24as all the
00:54:25other sad
00:54:25songs
00:54:25which is
00:54:26pretty much
00:54:27what every
00:54:27musician
00:54:29starts off
00:54:30doing
00:54:31yeah
00:54:31embarrassment
00:54:32it is
00:54:33vulnerability
00:54:34but it's
00:54:35it's like
00:54:37you've made
00:54:38a song
00:54:38that isn't
00:54:39like all
00:54:39the other
00:54:40sad songs
00:54:41that everyone's
00:54:42ever written
00:54:42ever
00:54:44you're doing
00:54:45something
00:54:45different
00:54:47and that
00:54:47comes with
00:54:48a deep
00:54:49feeling
00:54:50of
00:54:50embarrassment
00:54:51and
00:54:52and
00:54:52and
00:54:52and
00:54:53and
00:54:53then
00:54:53what you
00:54:53have to
00:54:54do
00:54:54is to
00:54:54is to
00:54:55is you
00:54:57you sort
00:54:57of go
00:54:57okay I've
00:54:58made the
00:54:58decision to
00:54:59do that
00:55:00and now
00:55:00I'm going
00:55:01to stand
00:55:01here and
00:55:02I'm going
00:55:02to look
00:55:03at you
00:55:03all
00:55:04and I'm
00:55:05going to
00:55:05say this
00:55:05is
00:55:07what the
00:55:08fuck
00:55:08I'm
00:55:08doing
00:55:09and
00:55:11you
00:55:12you have
00:55:13to
00:55:13try to
00:55:15then convince
00:55:15them
00:55:15that you
00:55:16mean it
00:55:16um
00:55:18wow
00:55:18that's a
00:55:20difficult
00:55:20um
00:55:20in the
00:55:21moment
00:55:22of
00:55:22creation
00:55:24that's a
00:55:24yeah
00:55:25because
00:55:25what you
00:55:27the thing
00:55:28you want
00:55:28to avoid
00:55:28is a
00:55:29kind of
00:55:30a weak
00:55:30self
00:55:30indulgence
00:55:33and it's
00:55:34difficult
00:55:34to tell
00:55:35the difference
00:55:36between
00:55:36when you're
00:55:37kind of
00:55:37complaining
00:55:39and being
00:55:40weak for the
00:55:40sake of
00:55:41attention
00:55:42or when
00:55:43you're
00:55:43creating
00:55:43something
00:55:44that is
00:55:45honest
00:55:45yeah
00:55:46and
00:55:47uh
00:55:48yeah
00:55:48do you
00:55:49have a
00:55:49do you
00:55:50have a
00:55:50sense of
00:55:50of what
00:55:52you honestly
00:55:52believe
00:55:52like are you
00:55:53able to
00:55:54reduce it
00:55:55to a
00:55:55sentence
00:55:56or
00:55:57is that
00:55:58even
00:55:58possible
00:55:58uh
00:56:03i think
00:56:03i'm
00:56:04i'm a
00:56:05i think
00:56:05i'm a bit
00:56:06more
00:56:06spiritual
00:56:07than i
00:56:07used to
00:56:08be
00:56:08for sure
00:56:09um
00:56:10and i
00:56:10don't
00:56:10think
00:56:11that's
00:56:11because
00:56:11i'm
00:56:12old
00:56:12and i'm
00:56:13aware
00:56:14that i'm
00:56:14going
00:56:14to die
00:56:16even
00:56:17though
00:56:17those
00:56:17things
00:56:17are
00:56:17true
00:56:18i
00:56:18think
00:56:18i think
00:56:20i'm
00:56:20spiritual
00:56:21because
00:56:22i actually
00:56:23think
00:56:23that's
00:56:23where
00:56:24the
00:56:25science
00:56:26is
00:56:27going
00:56:27i think
00:56:28that
00:56:28um
00:56:29the
00:56:30the
00:56:31material
00:56:32world
00:56:34is
00:56:34not
00:56:35what
00:56:35we
00:56:36think
00:56:36it
00:56:36is
00:56:37and
00:56:38i think
00:56:38consciousness
00:56:39we haven't
00:56:40even begun
00:56:41to understand
00:56:43where
00:56:44where all
00:56:46this comes
00:56:46from
00:56:46i think
00:56:47we
00:56:47we've
00:56:47figured
00:56:47out
00:56:49material
00:56:50the
00:56:50material
00:56:51world
00:56:52and
00:56:53then
00:56:53um
00:56:53you know
00:56:54quantum
00:56:55science
00:56:55all these
00:56:56things
00:56:57now
00:56:57i mean
00:56:57there's
00:56:58scientists
00:56:58that are
00:56:58saying
00:56:59that
00:56:59the
00:56:59universe
00:57:00is
00:57:01made
00:57:01of
00:57:02consciousness
00:57:03everything
00:57:03is
00:57:04conscious
00:57:04which
00:57:05you can
00:57:05kind
00:57:06of
00:57:06think
00:57:06that's
00:57:07a bit
00:57:07strange
00:57:08but
00:57:09it's
00:57:10kind
00:57:10of
00:57:12i mean
00:57:12i'm
00:57:13i love
00:57:14watching videos
00:57:15about
00:57:15ufos
00:57:16i mean
00:57:16i'm
00:57:16just
00:57:17my family
00:57:18think
00:57:18i'm
00:57:18completely
00:57:19crazy
00:57:21but
00:57:21i find
00:57:22it
00:57:22fascinating
00:57:23and
00:57:24just
00:57:25hearing
00:57:25people
00:57:26and
00:57:27like
00:57:27ufos
00:57:27and
00:57:28like
00:57:28sort
00:57:28of
00:57:28near
00:57:28death
00:57:28experiences
00:57:29these
00:57:29sort
00:57:30of
00:57:30like
00:57:30really
00:57:31extreme
00:57:31moments
00:57:32in
00:57:32people's
00:57:32lives
00:57:33what's
00:57:33the
00:57:33attraction
00:57:34of
00:57:34the
00:57:34ufo
00:57:34stuff
00:57:35like
00:57:36what do
00:57:36you find
00:57:36compelling
00:57:37about
00:57:37it
00:57:37well
00:57:38i
00:57:38i believe
00:57:40it
00:57:41is
00:57:41that's
00:57:42that
00:57:42i really
00:57:43believe
00:57:43it
00:57:44i don't
00:57:44i don't
00:57:45think
00:57:47i
00:57:47i don't
00:57:48think
00:57:49that
00:57:49it is
00:57:50um
00:57:52nothing
00:57:53and
00:57:55and i
00:57:55would say
00:57:55i would say
00:57:57i can
00:57:57be
00:57:58i'm
00:57:59100%
00:58:00sure
00:58:00it is
00:58:00not
00:58:01nothing
00:58:02right
00:58:02but then
00:58:04as soon
00:58:04as you
00:58:05say
00:58:05it
00:58:05is
00:58:06something
00:58:06you
00:58:07sort
00:58:07of
00:58:07have
00:58:07to
00:58:07then
00:58:08be
00:58:08able
00:58:08to
00:58:08entertain
00:58:09anything
00:58:10you know
00:58:10you have
00:58:11to
00:58:11you have
00:58:12to start
00:58:12thinking
00:58:13well
00:58:13maybe
00:58:13maybe
00:58:14they're
00:58:15already
00:58:15here
00:58:15maybe
00:58:16they're
00:58:16from
00:58:16the
00:58:16future
00:58:17maybe
00:58:19they're
00:58:20from
00:58:21another
00:58:22dimension
00:58:23i mean
00:58:23you know
00:58:24talking about
00:58:24other
00:58:24dimensions
00:58:25you
00:58:25sound
00:58:26like
00:58:26a
00:58:26sort
00:58:26of
00:58:281950s
00:58:29sci-fi
00:58:30freak
00:58:31but
00:58:32but
00:58:33we
00:58:33accept
00:58:34we
00:58:35accept
00:58:35that
00:58:35up
00:58:35down
00:58:36left
00:58:36and
00:58:36right
00:58:37and
00:58:37forwards
00:58:37and
00:58:37backwards
00:58:38is
00:58:38real
00:58:39in
00:58:40the
00:58:40materialist
00:58:41sense
00:58:41but
00:58:42when you
00:58:43start
00:58:44thinking
00:58:44about
00:58:44the
00:58:44fourth
00:58:45dimension
00:58:45that
00:58:46involves
00:58:47time
00:58:47so
00:58:49if you
00:58:49were
00:58:49a
00:58:50four
00:58:51dimensional
00:58:51being
00:58:52you
00:58:53would
00:58:53actually
00:58:54see
00:58:54time
00:58:56in
00:58:56the
00:58:56way
00:58:56that
00:58:57we
00:58:57see
00:58:57this
00:58:58glass
00:58:58so
00:58:59I
00:58:59think
00:59:02having
00:59:03spent
00:59:04a lot
00:59:05of
00:59:05time
00:59:05in
00:59:05dark
00:59:06rooms
00:59:06I
00:59:07think
00:59:08that
00:59:10just
00:59:10yeah
00:59:11just
00:59:11even
00:59:12considering
00:59:12the
00:59:13fourth
00:59:13dimension
00:59:13is
00:59:14utterly
00:59:14bonkers
00:59:15so
00:59:15one
00:59:15of
00:59:15the
00:59:16things
00:59:16about
00:59:16we
00:59:17say
00:59:17buddhism
00:59:18would
00:59:18be
00:59:18that
00:59:21this
00:59:22historical
00:59:22figure
00:59:23of
00:59:23the
00:59:23Buddha
00:59:23said
00:59:24all
00:59:24these
00:59:24things
00:59:25but
00:59:25he
00:59:25also
00:59:25said
00:59:25test
00:59:26it
00:59:26out
00:59:26for
00:59:26yourself
00:59:27none
00:59:27of
00:59:27what
00:59:27I
00:59:28said
00:59:28is
00:59:28of
00:59:28any
00:59:28relevance
00:59:29unless
00:59:29it
00:59:30has
00:59:30meaning
00:59:30for
00:59:31you
00:59:31so
00:59:31experience
00:59:32it
00:59:32test
00:59:33it
00:59:33out
00:59:33and
00:59:34if
00:59:34you
00:59:34don't
00:59:34think
00:59:34it's
00:59:34true
00:59:34move
00:59:35on
00:59:35absolutely
00:59:38with
00:59:39the
00:59:39alien
00:59:40stuff
00:59:40and
00:59:41that's
00:59:41I
00:59:41don't
00:59:42want
00:59:43that phrase
00:59:43to sound
00:59:43too
00:59:44derogatory
00:59:44but
00:59:44whatever
00:59:45the
00:59:45phrase
00:59:45is
00:59:46it's
00:59:47all
00:59:48hearsay
00:59:49for you
00:59:50isn't it
00:59:50it's all
00:59:51kind of
00:59:51I read
00:59:52this guy
00:59:52I saw
00:59:52that guy
00:59:53I saw
00:59:54in terms
00:59:54of personal
00:59:55investigation
00:59:57personal
00:59:58experience
01:00:01it's
01:00:02yeah
01:00:03I mean
01:00:03as I say
01:00:03I'm not
01:00:05I would
01:00:06be
01:00:07I
01:00:08because I'm
01:00:09an artist
01:00:09I don't
01:00:11I can
01:00:11be mad
01:00:12I mean
01:00:13people
01:00:14I'm
01:00:15I don't
01:00:15need
01:00:16for people
01:00:17to think
01:00:17that I'm
01:00:18sane
01:00:18because
01:00:21I'm an
01:00:22artist
01:00:22I'm
01:00:23crazy
01:00:25so
01:00:25I will
01:00:26I've always
01:00:27been quite
01:00:27happy to
01:00:28say
01:00:28this
01:00:30this is
01:00:31what I
01:00:32believe
01:00:32but I
01:00:33fully
01:00:33I mean
01:00:34people
01:00:34they laugh
01:00:35at me
01:00:35but
01:00:36as I
01:00:38said
01:00:38I'm
01:00:38I'm
01:00:39I get
01:00:39paid
01:00:40to be
01:00:40embarrassed
01:00:42we have
01:00:42to wrap
01:00:43up now
01:00:43but I
01:00:45it's funny
01:00:46because
01:00:46just talking
01:00:46to you
01:00:47I would
01:00:47have had
01:00:48the sense
01:00:48when
01:00:48the streets
01:00:49started
01:00:50of
01:00:54of a
01:00:54kind of
01:00:54a defiance
01:00:55and
01:00:56a
01:00:58non-apologetic
01:01:01way
01:01:02of being
01:01:02and I think
01:01:04talking to
01:01:05I can
01:01:06now
01:01:06also see
01:01:07the
01:01:08vulnerability
01:01:08in it
01:01:08and how
01:01:10how important
01:01:11that is
01:01:11and that
01:01:12that's
01:01:14that's
01:01:15inspiring
01:01:18no
01:01:19well I
01:01:20yeah
01:01:20it's
01:01:21it's
01:01:24yeah
01:01:24you can
01:01:25invoice me
01:01:26for the
01:01:26therapy
01:01:28later
01:01:30the
01:01:31vulnerability
01:01:31doctor
01:01:32Mike
01:01:32thank you
01:01:33thank you
01:01:35that's all
01:01:36from us
01:01:36for this
01:01:36evening
01:01:37thank you
01:01:37very much
01:01:37for watching
01:02:14thank you
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