Exclusive interview with former Afghan diplomat Zhardast Shams on Pakistan's airstrikes on Kabul hospital (400+ civilian deaths), Durand Line dispute, TTP, Taliban legitimacy crisis & why Afghanistan now sees Pakistan as enemy state. Real drivers behind the escalation.
#ZardashtShams #ExclusiveInterview #AfghanistanPakistanWar #PakistanMilitary #TTP #Taliban #SomyaJaiswal #World #Defence
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NewsTranscript
00:00:01What was your reaction or your thought around this attack which took place two days back?
00:00:07Pakistan was a mass murder massacre of civilian Afghan people.
00:00:16Pakistan is doing this aggression. For the last two, for the last five decades,
00:00:22they are blatantly interfering in the Afghan affairs.
00:00:31Pakistan is a liar state. It's part of their policy. They are even killing their own people
00:00:38through drone attacks. They are bombarding. It's matchless.
00:00:47What do you think is the most realistic path towards ceasefire in this situation?
00:00:53When you support and pump communities with weapons and with the extremist ideology
00:01:03to fight in Afghanistan, to fight in Kashmir, so what do you expect the third and fourth generation?
00:01:19Today, on March 19, 2026, both Afghanistan and Pakistan are teetering on the edge of a full-scale war.
00:01:28Airstrikes have hit Kabul hospitals wherein over hundreds of civilian casualties.
00:01:35Many tens and thousands have been displaced and now this has sparked declaration of full-scale war.
00:01:43Today, we are being joined by Sadar Shrams, who happens to be a former Afghan diplomat in Islamabad
00:01:50and happens to know both sides intimately and will explain us the real drivers behind this deadly escalation.
00:01:59Thank you, Mr. Shrams, for joining us for this exclusive interview.
00:02:04Mr. Shrams, first, I'd like to understand from you, what was your reaction or your thought around this attack
00:02:11which took place two days back from Pakistan wherein a Kabul hospital was targeted over 400 civilian casualties?
00:02:18What was your reaction?
00:02:21Thank you so much.
00:02:22So, in fact, what Pakistan done was a mass murder massacre of civilian Afghan people.
00:02:30So, I strongly condemn this act of aggression, this inhuman act of Pakistan, this barbarism of Pakistan.
00:02:40It's in no way acceptable. It's against the international law. It's against the international humanitarian law
00:02:47by targeting drug addicts or rehabilitation center, and they were hoping for a bright future.
00:02:57And most of them were completing their recovery treatment over there, and they were returning to their normal lives.
00:03:06But this is not the first time. Pakistan is doing this aggression for the last two, for the last five
00:03:13decades.
00:03:14They are blatantly interfering in the Afghan affairs. But since last year, they have started directly.
00:03:22Previously, they were using proxies to interfere and to increase its influence in Afghanistan.
00:03:29Now, they have come forward and their evil military, which have very worst track record of human rights violation.
00:03:38They did in Bangladesh. They are doing it to their own people in Balochistan.
00:03:43They are doing atrocities against people in the tribal areas. They are killing Pashtuns.
00:03:47So, now they are directly hitting and bombing civilians in Afghanistan. We witnessed last month that they bombed a family
00:03:57and killing 18 of a family members.
00:04:00And the international community, the world media, everyone saw that they witnessed. It was verified.
00:04:06The UN confirmed that these were purely civilians. And now the Kabul attack is also a civilian target they hit.
00:04:15Mr. Shams, if we look at the response that followed after this attack, this deadly attack, there has been a
00:04:22pattern as to how Pakistan responds when it comes to such attacks or when it comes to terrorist attacks.
00:04:27We are seeing the same kind of patterns when something like this has happened to India as well.
00:04:32So, this time around as well, we have this statement from the Pakistan's Information Minister, wherein he has completely backed
00:04:39out from taking any responsibility of this attack.
00:04:42Pakistan instead has gone on record saying it's a Taliban propaganda. How do you look at this response?
00:04:49The thing is that Pakistan is a liar state. It's part of their policy. They are even killing their own
00:04:57people through drone attacks.
00:04:59They are bombarding. It's matchless. And never in the world you can see to bomb your own people. But they
00:05:06are bombing their own people.
00:05:08They killed hundreds of thousands of their own people in Bangladesh. And then the Bangla people were able to get
00:05:17their independence.
00:05:18So, when you look at the track record of Pakistan's military, so their hands are stained with blood of innocent
00:05:27people.
00:05:28When they target their own people, so it's not like far from reality that they can target and they will
00:05:34deny.
00:05:34So, everyone saw that last month they killed a teen of only one family, a one child and one adult
00:05:41was left in Jalalabad in Behistud district.
00:05:44And now they killed a civilian and a totally, which should be protected under international law, a hospital, a treatment
00:05:53center.
00:05:54And they deliberately attacked it. They know that this center was turned, this was previously in a military area.
00:06:03But in 2016-17, it was transformed into a treatment center. Everyone knows, the international community knows, there were aid
00:06:11agencies extending aid and supporting that center.
00:06:15So, it's an obvious. Pakistan has an embassy in Afghanistan. So, it's not acceptable. They are lying.
00:06:23As we move forward and we talk about these strikes from Pakistan, what do you think of these strikes, Mr.
00:06:30Shams?
00:06:31Are these just a pressure tactic or is this a start of a war that could actually or has the
00:06:39potential to topple the Taliban government or Taliban rule there in Afghanistan?
00:06:44I would say this is not a war against Taliban. It's war against Afghanistan. It's war against Afghan people.
00:06:52So, they cannot topple Afghanistan. They are trying this for the last five decades.
00:06:57Afghanistan is a nation which has strong roots. It's a nation. It's a united nation. It's not like divided just
00:07:07like Pakistan.
00:07:08There is no single entity in Afghanistan, single ethnic group or political group that want the disintegration of Afghanistan.
00:07:17Pakistan. But there are several parties, there are several ethnicities, political movements in Pakistan that don't want to be with
00:07:25Pakistan.
00:07:26They say that it was a conspiracy that they became part of Pakistan, whether it's Pashtuns in the Pashtun Kha
00:07:33and the tribal areas, whether it's Baloch and even other people.
00:07:37Pakistan is not even a nation. It's a it's a it's a it's a setup that was made to implement
00:07:42the the agendas of the Western powers.
00:07:46So, it's very obvious. So, yeah, they would like to destabilize Afghanistan.
00:07:51Pakistan, they want a civil war and civil fighting between different factions, which they are looking now to support.
00:08:00But this will fail because this time now I would I can say that almost 100 percent of Afghan people
00:08:07there against Pakistan.
00:08:08They hate Pakistan. So previously we could say that, OK, now they were blaming India or other countries that they
00:08:15are motivating Afghans to act against Pakistan.
00:08:18Now it's 100 percent when you kill civilians. So no one will support you.
00:08:23So now Pakistan, since the their defense minister, their higher officials, their military officials, they are openly saying that Afghanistan
00:08:31is an enemy state.
00:08:33So for Afghan, it's now very clear that Pakistan is an enemy.
00:08:38You just made this mention about the defense minister and the kind of statement that he has been making.
00:08:44In your opinion, what how do you perceive what's going to be the timeline of this conflict that has been
00:08:51going on and off between Pakistan and Afghanistan specifically from last few months given just last month only the defense
00:08:58minister declared that it's going to be an open war.
00:09:01How do you perceive the timeline?
00:09:02So it's it's a planned war from Pakistani side and we cannot also ignore the international developments, the regional developments,
00:09:14the fight and the war in the Middle East and how they try to become closer to the new U
00:09:22.S. administration.
00:09:23They want to implement their agenda. Also, President Trump openly told that I want Bagram Air Base.
00:09:30So so so it seems there are things that maybe in the background they have committed some projects to implement
00:09:40in this area.
00:09:41May. But the main reason is they want to destabilize Afghanistan.
00:09:45They want to destroy the infrastructure that were built in the past 20, 25 years with the support of international
00:09:52community, even if they dare to hit the hospitals and treatment centers and civilian houses.
00:09:59So they are destroying every infrastructure, even their leading journalists, they are advising their government to destroy the economy of
00:10:09Afghanistan, bridges, hospitals, road infrastructure, and even their their crops and fields.
00:10:16So it's the mindset of the the mindset of the Pakistan, which is a fascist regime.
00:10:20Sorry, I would say so looking at that.
00:10:24So it's a planned war from a Pakistani side and it shows their frustration and desperation.
00:10:29They were thinking that when the Taliban come to power, so they will obey whatever they want.
00:10:35They would promote their foreign policy, their foreign agenda, and also they wanted that Afghanistan should become a client state
00:10:47of Pakistan.
00:10:48But Taliban realizing their past 20 years, how they they sold Taliban to the U.S. after 9-1-1
00:10:56and how they treated and imprisoned them.
00:10:58So now Taliban is a bit different, their policy has changed.
00:11:02So now it enraged Pakistan and went to that level that they openly declared war against Afghanistan.
00:11:09Mr. Shams, if we talk about the factors in this conflict between Afghanistan and Pakistan, there are multiple factors.
00:11:17There's TTP, there's Taliban, there's Durant line also, this unrecognized factor.
00:11:24Do you think this is one of the driving factor which is leading to this fighting and will Afghanistan ever
00:11:33be in a position to accept it?
00:11:35Yeah, this of course, like when we said there are many reasons and there are many dimensions to this conflict.
00:11:43So one of the core issues is the Durant line. And the Durant line is an issue that is the
00:11:48part of the Afghanistan territorial integrity.
00:11:54And none of the Afghan government has ever accepted this international boundary.
00:12:01But the consecutive governments, they also in the meanwhile, they were not accepting the Durant line, but they did not
00:12:10declare any open war against Pakistan.
00:12:12And the reason was that on both sides of the Durant line, the same tribe, same people, same ethnicity, same
00:12:17language, same religion, they were living.
00:12:20Even in the previous presidency of President Karzai, he was open that even if Pakistan is shelling and mortaring or
00:12:31bombing mortars on Afghan soil of the Durant line, part of the Durant line, we will not hit back.
00:12:38Because Pakistan wants to kill people on both sides so that we can be incited and we also hit back.
00:12:45So that was the policy. So now, like the Pakistan understands that the none of the Afghan government, even Taliban,
00:12:54which were believed to have close relations with Pakistan, they are unable to.
00:12:58They are unwilling to accept this as international boundary. So, yes, this is one of the core issues.
00:13:03But now we see that Pakistan's objectives are what envisage Pakistan is the beyond Durant line.
00:13:13They want to control Kabul even. They want to have access to the Central Asia and implement their evil agendas.
00:13:23Now the Taliban have even provided evidence that they are supporting the Daesh Khurasana, the ISIS.
00:13:30So it's an alarming thing, not only for Afghanistan, but for the region.
00:13:35They want to destabilize Afghanistan and then destabilize the whole region.
00:13:40Mr. Shams, if we talk about the recent foreign relationship developments, a lot has changed in the last six months,
00:13:51specifically when it comes to Afghanistan and India.
00:13:55Now, post this escalation, there have been a number of times where Pakistan has claimed that Afghanistan has become an
00:14:03Indian proxy.
00:14:04For you, for someone who has witnessed both sides very intimately, be it Pakistan or be it Afghanistan,
00:14:12how much truth does this statement hold in today's day and age when Pakistan claims that Afghanistan has become an
00:14:21Indian proxy?
00:14:24I firmly believe that this is totally baseless.
00:14:28The reason is that Pakistan doesn't accept Afghanistan as a sovereign state,
00:14:35a state that can have independent relations with any nation, with any country, with any organization.
00:14:42So how Pakistan dare to even point at what type of relationship Afghanistan is supposed to have with any nation,
00:14:51including India.
00:14:53With India, Afghanistan has a very historical relation.
00:14:58This was the same region.
00:15:00We have shared history, shared culture.
00:15:02Everything is shared.
00:15:03We have shared.
00:15:05We have even a large population of Afghans living in India.
00:15:07And we had, unfortunately, due to the conflicts and war, we had Sikh population.
00:15:13We have Hindu population.
00:15:15Even we today have.
00:15:17So it's a shared territory.
00:15:18We shared a history.
00:15:20So the thing is that the even the India, like before the when our King Amanullah declared independence, like the
00:15:33reclamation of independence, because it was a for a brief period of time against the British India.
00:15:38So at that time, the independence movement were going on in India, and the leader of that was Raja Mahindra
00:15:49Prathab.
00:15:50And in 1916, I believe, 16 or 17, the first government in exile of India was declared in Kabul.
00:16:02So it was 1916 and 17, way before Pakistan was born or Pakistan was created.
00:16:09So so it's a it's a relationship because Afghanistan was at that time an inspiration for the free world, because
00:16:15that was the first country who got reclaimed its independence from the colonial rule.
00:16:20And then like the Raja Mahindra Prathab was a Hindu.
00:16:24And then his cabinet was Mawlana Ubaidullah Sindhi, Mawlana Barakatullah, his was prime minister.
00:16:30So it was a true representation of an Indian, of a united India.
00:16:36So now it's very baseless because looking at all these history, these shared history relationship.
00:16:42So it's a it's a natural relationship.
00:16:45We have similar commonalities with Iran, we have with other Central Asian states.
00:16:50So that doesn't make sense that Pakistan.
00:16:52But initially, when I pointed that what Pakistan wants is that they want to dictate Afghanistan.
00:16:59It should be a client.
00:17:00That's not acceptable.
00:17:02So then they will make excuses and blames.
00:17:05We have seen in last few months, ever since the takeover of Taliban there in Afghanistan, there have been lots
00:17:13of changes where it rules and reforms when it comes to women.
00:17:17Women rights are not being acknowledged at all there in Afghanistan.
00:17:22And now moving forward, the kind of strikes that are being taken place from Pakistan side, which has eventually led
00:17:30to several civilian casualties.
00:17:32Do you think at this point going to hurt the legitimacy of Taliban in Afghanistan?
00:17:41Yeah, that's one of the disaster of the Taliban government right now.
00:17:49They so far have not given the Afghans, Afghan men and women and youth and every sector their due rights.
00:17:59And it's unacceptable.
00:18:01It's unbelievable.
00:18:02In the 21st century, you are banning girls not to attend school.
00:18:06You are banning women not to go for work.
00:18:09So you are paralyzing the society.
00:18:12Fifty percent of the society are sitting home and not taking part in the society in the development, in the
00:18:20rehabilitation.
00:18:20So we can see in India, it's a vibrant society.
00:18:25So women is part of every every every part of the society in the West.
00:18:29Even it's not comparable.
00:18:31But even in our region where we have India and other nations in Iran, you can see.
00:18:35So it's it's it's unbelievable.
00:18:38It's not it cannot sustain in this way.
00:18:41And that's one of the major demand of Afghan people that right from today, this ban should be lifted.
00:18:48Women should be allowed to work, to contribute in the development of the society.
00:18:52And women treat them as an equal human being, just like men.
00:18:56There is no difference.
00:18:57And there is no religious thing that you implement or enforce these your own oriented interpretation of Islam.
00:19:08We have leading Muslim countries, Muslim nations who are giving equal rights to all men and women.
00:19:15So that's one of the the drawback, the shortcoming or the I would say even that a disastrous policy of
00:19:21Taliban.
00:19:22It's a self-harm or suicidal policy of Taliban.
00:19:25So we look forward that after suffering on the international and regional stage that even Pakistan is there to bomb
00:19:37without any impunity and without any fear and they hitting.
00:19:42So there is need to confront Pakistan with a united Afghanistan and the unity of Afghanistan is possible only when
00:19:51you give them equal rights.
00:19:53When you give the all the political rights, the civil rights, the human rights, including everything.
00:20:00So in that when you make a government inclusive of all ethnicities, of all political parties and everyone.
00:20:08So then you can make a strong Afghanistan which can confront Pakistan.
00:20:13My next question.
00:20:14What do you think is the most realistic path towards ceasefire in this situation?
00:20:20A.
00:20:21Do you really think TTP is really that big of a problem for Pakistan at this moment?
00:20:28Or is it just exaggerating to just justify its attacks on Afghanistan?
00:20:33A.
00:20:33Yeah, it's a it's not that major or bigger problem.
00:20:40Pakistan, Pakistan army is claiming to be the number that number and those number of the world army.
00:20:49They are having air power.
00:20:52They are having even nuclear power and whatever.
00:20:54A.
00:20:55TTP is only in the tribal belts in the Pashtun area, which Pakistan intentionally created to have a proxy hand,
00:21:07to have an open hand, to have a proxy role in Afghanistan.
00:21:10Because all the TTP, the area that they control or they have influence is along the Durand line.
00:21:16So it's not today.
00:21:18For the past 50 years, they armed those people and they were supporting Mujahideen and then later Taliban and then
00:21:26again Taliban.
00:21:27So when you support and pump communities with weapons and with the extremist ideology to fight in Afghanistan, to fight
00:21:40in Kashmir.
00:21:41So what do you expect the third and fourth generation?
00:21:45So now they are raising questions that if you ask me to raise the Islamic flag or bring Islam into
00:21:53Kashmir and bring Islam into Kabul.
00:21:55So why not bring Islam into Islamabad?
00:21:57So that's now the question it was raised for the past two, three decades.
00:22:02It's a Pakistan internal problem.
00:22:04They nurtured terrorism.
00:22:06They nurtured radicalism.
00:22:07They nurtured religious extremism.
00:22:09Now it's paying back.
00:22:11So that's the reason that it's not that larger issue, but they want to have a threshold of the militancy
00:22:21in the tribal areas to justify the military presence.
00:22:25Because even the Durand line, which is, as I mentioned, it's not a legitimate international border and Afghanistan has never
00:22:35accepted it.
00:22:35But even there were no military because it was almost a buffer area.
00:22:43There were no military presence.
00:22:44But Pakistan, through this TTP and through the militants, they convinced the international community and met like we propagated that,
00:22:55OK, there is a need that I should intervene.
00:22:57And then in the past 2006 and seven and eight and nine, they intervened.
00:23:02And then they did atrocities against these tribal people because it was a semi-autonomous area.
00:23:08So it is a problem because some part is because they are radicalized and what they were taught by Pakistani
00:23:18military that you should sacrifice for Islam.
00:23:22Now they are sacrificing.
00:23:24But part is when they also differentiate as a good Taliban and bad Taliban.
00:23:28So there are still good Taliban, which they still want to keep maybe tomorrow to use against India in Afghanistan
00:23:34or somewhere else, because they are getting projects from anywhere.
00:23:39And they are ready because it's a contracted army and military.
00:23:43So, yes, some part is problem, but some is their controlled insurgency.
00:23:49My last question to you, Mr. Shamsa.
00:23:51What are the expectations from the international community?
00:23:54And specifically when we talk about India, given how we have seen several attempts have been made in the last
00:23:59six months, especially to strengthen the ties between India and Afghanistan.
00:24:04We saw how successful Mr. Mutaki's visit to India was lots of changes to place post that.
00:24:13So what are the expectations?
00:24:16Yeah, the expectations from international community, unfortunately, due to the illegitimacy of the Taliban government, it's not a recognized government
00:24:26globally.
00:24:27So it's a very huge problem for the under diplomatic front for the current defective authorities of Afghanistan.
00:24:36They have no representation in the United Nations in the Islamic conference at the International Forum to project what Pakistan
00:24:45is doing.
00:24:45They are killing civilians and they are promoting their own agendas in the region.
00:24:51They're destabilizing the region.
00:24:53So this is one vacuum which needs to be filled.
00:24:57So it first goes to the Taliban government.
00:25:00They should make changes.
00:25:02They should get legitimacy domestically.
00:25:06And then based on those, they can then go for the international legitimacy.
00:25:11So that's one part.
00:25:13In addition, in the meanwhile, the Pakistani military is destabilizing the region.
00:25:20It's not only threatening for Pakistan, but it's also for the region and those countries which are more vulnerable to
00:25:28Pakistani policies.
00:25:29They should also intervene.
00:25:31We know that due to the Middle East and the other international conflicts now, the attention toward Afghanistan-Pakistan conflict
00:25:39is quite minimized.
00:25:41And what is not interested, but the regional players should be interested because it will affect them anyways.
00:25:49And I would say that India-Avanistan relationship should go beyond only rehabilitation or economic and development because they should
00:25:58think on defense cooperation also.
00:26:01Because that's one of the point that Pakistan is very become very aggressive and they start taking.
00:26:09You remember that when the Taliban foreign minister Mottaki was in Delhi, the first attack of Kabul happened for the
00:26:15bombardment happened on that.
00:26:16Yeah.
00:26:17With it.
00:26:18With it.
00:26:18It seems that Pakistan is very annoyed and irritated.
00:26:22It's obvious because of their mentality and their policies that they want a client state.
00:26:29So that's the point that India and Afghanistan should consider promoting defense ties also.
00:26:37They should consider whatever possible because it's a threat which is both the nations are facing.
00:26:43I would say not only both the nations, the whole region should become unified in fighting Pakistani hegemony and this
00:26:53aggressive and violent policy.
00:26:57Thank you, Mr. Shams, for your most unfiltered insights into South Asia is one of the most dangerous flashpoints.
00:27:06As the fragile ceasefire holds for now, the stakes will be higher.
00:27:11Thank you for your insights, Mr. Shams.
00:27:23What was your reaction or your thought around this attack which took place two days back?
00:27:29Pakistan then was a mass murder massacre of civilian Afghan people.
00:27:38Pakistan is doing this aggression for the last two, for the last five decades.
00:27:44They are blatantly interfering in the Afghan affairs.
00:27:53Pakistan is a liar state.
00:27:55Pakistan is a liar state.
00:27:56It's part of their policy.
00:27:58They are even killing their own people through drone attacks.
00:28:02They are bombarding.
00:28:03It's matchless.
00:28:10What do you think is the most realistic path towards ceasefire in this situation?
00:28:15When you support and pump communities with weapons and with the extremist ideology to fight in Afghanistan, to fight in
00:28:27Kashmir.
00:28:28So what do you expect the third and fourth generation?
00:28:41Today, on March 19th, 2026, both Afghanistan and Pakistan are teetering on the edge of a full-scale war.
00:28:50Airstrikes have hit Kabul hospitals wherein over hundreds of civilian casualties.
00:28:57Many tens and thousands have been displaced.
00:29:01And now this has sparked the declaration of full-scale war.
00:29:05Today, we are being joined by Sadar Shams, who happens to be a former Afghan diplomat in Islamabad
00:29:12and happens to know both sides intimately and will explain as the real drivers behind this deadly escalation.
00:29:21Thank you, Mr. Shams, for joining us for this exclusive interview.
00:29:26Mr. Shams, first, I'd like to understand from you what was your reaction or your thought around this attack
00:29:33which took place two days back from Pakistan wherein a Kabul hospital was targeted over 400 civilian casualties.
00:29:40What was your reaction?
00:29:43Thank you so much.
00:29:44So, in fact, what Pakistan done was a mass murder massacre of civilian Afghan people.
00:29:52So I strongly condemn this act of aggression, this inhuman act of Pakistan, this barbarism of Pakistan.
00:30:02It's in no way acceptable.
00:30:05It's against the international law.
00:30:07It's against the international humanitarian law by targeting drug addicts or rehabilitation center.
00:30:16And they were hoping for a bright future.
00:30:19And most of them were completing their recovery treatment over there, and they were returning to their normal lives.
00:30:28But this is not the first time.
00:30:30Pakistan is doing this aggression for the last two, for the last five decades.
00:30:36They are blatantly interfering in the Afghan affairs.
00:30:40But since last year, they have started directly.
00:30:44Previously, they were using proxies to interfere and to increase its influence in Afghanistan.
00:30:51Now they have come forward and their evil military, which have very worst track record of human rights violation.
00:31:00They did in Bangladesh.
00:31:02They are doing it to their own people in Balochistan.
00:31:05They are doing atrocities against people in the tribal areas.
00:31:08They are killing Pashtuns.
00:31:09So now they are directly hitting and bombing civilians in Afghanistan.
00:31:14We witnessed last month that they bombed a family and killing 18 of a family members.
00:31:22And the international community, the world media, everyone saw that.
00:31:26They witnessed.
00:31:27It was verified.
00:31:28The UN confirmed that these were purely civilians.
00:31:32And now the Kabul attack is also a civilian target they hit.
00:31:37Mr. Shams, if we look at the response that followed after this attack, this deadly attack,
00:31:43there has been a pattern as to how Pakistan responds when it comes to such attacks
00:31:48or when it comes to terrorist attacks.
00:31:49We are seeing the same kind of patterns when something like this has happened to India as well.
00:31:55So this time around as well, we have this statement from Pakistan's information minister
00:32:00wherein he has completely backed out from taking any responsibility of this attack
00:32:04and instead has gone on record saying it's a Taliban propaganda.
00:32:08How do you look at this response?
00:32:11The thing is that Pakistan is a liar state.
00:32:16It's part of their policy.
00:32:18They are even killing their own people through drone attacks.
00:32:21They are bombarding.
00:32:23It's it's not.
00:32:24It's matchless.
00:32:25And then never in the world you can see to bomb your own people.
00:32:28But they are bombing their own people.
00:32:30They killed hundreds of thousands of their own people in Bangladesh.
00:32:35And then the Bangla people were able to get their independence.
00:32:41So it's it's when you look at the track record of Pakistan military.
00:32:45So they their their hands are stained with blood of innocent people when they target their own people.
00:32:52So it's not like far from reality that they can target and they will deny.
00:32:56So everyone saw that last month they killed 18 of only one family.
00:33:02A one child and one adult was left in Jalalabad in Basu district.
00:33:06And now they killed a civilian and a totally which should be protected under international law, a hospital, a treatment
00:33:15center.
00:33:16And they deliberately attacked it.
00:33:19They they know that these this center was turned.
00:33:23This was previously in a military area.
00:33:25But in 2016, 17, it was transformed into a treatment center.
00:33:30Everyone knew the international community.
00:33:32There were aid agencies extending aid and supporting that center.
00:33:37So it's it's an obvious Pakistan has an embassy in Afghanistan.
00:33:40So it's it's not acceptable.
00:33:43They are lying.
00:33:45As we move forward and we talk about these strikes from Pakistan, what do you think of these strikes?
00:33:52Mr. Shams, are these just a pressure tactic or this or or is this a start of a war that
00:33:59could actually
00:34:00or has the potential to topple the Taliban government or Taliban rule there in Afghanistan?
00:34:06I would say this is not a war against Taliban.
00:34:10It's war against Afghanistan.
00:34:12It's war against Afghanistan.
00:34:13It's war against Afghan people.
00:34:14So they cannot topple Afghanistan.
00:34:16They they are trying this for the last five decades.
00:34:20Afghanistan is a nation which has a strong roots.
00:34:24It's a nation.
00:34:25It's a united nation.
00:34:27It's a it's not like divided just like Pakistan.
00:34:30There is no single entity in Afghanistan, single ethnic group or political group that want the disintegration of Afghanistan.
00:34:39But there are several parties.
00:34:42There are several ethnicities, political movements in Pakistan that don't want to be with Pakistan.
00:34:48They say that it was a conspiracy that they became part of Pakistan, whether it's Pashtuns in the in the
00:34:54Pakhtunkhwa and the tribal areas, whether it's Baloch and even other people.
00:34:59Pakistan is not even a nation.
00:35:01It's a it's a it's a setup that was made to to implement the the agendas of the Western powers.
00:35:08So it's very obvious.
00:35:09So, yeah, they would like to destabilize Afghanistan.
00:35:14They want a civil war and civil fighting between different factions, which they are looking now to support.
00:35:21But this will fail because this time now I would I can say that almost 100 percent of Afghan people
00:35:29there against Pakistan.
00:35:30They hate Pakistan.
00:35:31So previously we could say that, OK, now they were blaming India or other countries that they are motivating Afghans
00:35:39to act against Pakistan.
00:35:40Now it's 100 percent when you kill civilian.
00:35:43So no one will support you.
00:35:45So now Pakistan, since the their defense minister, their higher officials, their military officials, they are openly saying that Afghanistan
00:35:53is an enemy state.
00:35:55So for Afghan, it's now very clear that Pakistan is an enemy.
00:36:00You just made this mention about the defense minister and the kind of statement that he has been making.
00:36:06In your opinion, what how do you perceive what's going to be the timeline of this conflict that has been
00:36:13going on and off between Pakistan and Afghanistan specifically from last few months given just last month only the defense
00:36:20minister declared that it's going to be an open war.
00:36:22How do you perceive the timeline?
00:36:24How do you perceive the timeline?
00:36:25So it's it's a planned war from Pakistani side and we cannot also ignore the international developments, the regional developments,
00:36:36the fight and the war in the Middle East and how they try to become closer to the new U
00:36:44.S. administration.
00:36:45They want to implement their agenda.
00:36:49They want to implement their agenda.
00:36:49Also, President Trump openly told that I want Bagram Air Base.
00:36:52So so so it seems there are things that maybe in the background they have committed some projects to implement
00:37:02in this area.
00:37:02But the main reason is they want to destabilize Afghanistan.
00:37:07They want to destroy the infrastructure that were built in the past 20, 25 years with the support of international
00:37:14community, even if they dare to hit the hospitals and treatment centers and civilian houses.
00:37:21So they are destroying every infrastructure, even their leading journalists, they are advising their government to destroy the economy of
00:37:31Afghanistan, bridges, hospitals, road infrastructure, and even their crops and fields.
00:37:38So it's the the mindset of the Pakistan, which is a fascist regime.
00:37:42Sorry, I would say so looking at that.
00:37:46So it's a planned war from Pakistani side and it shows their frustration and desperation.
00:37:51They were thinking that when the Taliban come to power, so they will obey whatever they want.
00:37:58They would promote their foreign policy, their foreign agenda.
00:38:03And also they wanted that Afghanistan should become a planned state of Pakistan.
00:38:10But Taliban realizing their past 20 years, how they sold Taliban to the U.S. after 9-1-1 and
00:38:18how they treated and imprisoned them.
00:38:20So now Taliban is a bit different.
00:38:22Their policy has changed.
00:38:24So now it enraged Pakistan and went to that level that they openly declared war against Afghanistan.
00:38:31Mr. Shams, if we talk about the factors in this conflict between Afghanistan and Pakistan, there are multiple factors.
00:38:39There's TTP, there's Taliban, there's Durant line also, this unrecognized factor.
00:38:46Do you think this is one of the driving factor which is leading to this fighting?
00:38:53And will Afghanistan ever be in a position to accept it?
00:38:57Yeah, of course, like when we said there are many reasons and there are many dimensions to this conflict.
00:39:05So one of the core issues is the Durant line.
00:39:08And the Durant line is an issue that is the part of the Afghanistan territorial integrity.
00:39:16None of the Afghan government has ever accepted this international boundary.
00:39:23But the consecutive Afghan governments, they also, in the meanwhile, they were not accepting the Durant line, but they did
00:39:32not declare any open war against Pakistan.
00:39:34And the reason was that on both sides of the Durant line, the same tribe, same people, same ethnicity, same
00:39:39language, same religion, they were living.
00:39:41Even in the previous presidency of President Karzai, he was open that even if Pakistan is shelling and mortaring or
00:39:53bombing mortars on Afghan soil of the Durant line, part of the Durant line, we will not hit back.
00:40:00Because Pakistan wants to kill people on both sides so that we can be incited and we also hit back.
00:40:07So that was the policy.
00:40:09So now, like the Pakistan understands that none of the Afghan government, even Taliban, which were believed to have close
00:40:18relations with Pakistan, they are unable to, they are unwilling to accept this as an international boundary.
00:40:23So, yes, this is one of the core issues, but now we see that Pakistan's objectives are what envisage Pakistan
00:40:33is the beyond Durant line.
00:40:35They want to control Kabul, even.
00:40:38They want to have access to the Central Asia and implement their evil agendas.
00:40:45Now the Taliban have even provided evidence that they are supporting the Daesh Khurasana, the ISIS.
00:40:52So it's an alarming thing, not only for Afghanistan, but for the region.
00:40:57They want to destabilize Afghanistan and then destabilize the whole region.
00:41:02Mr. Shams, if we talk about the recent foreign relationship developments, a lot has been shared, a lot has changed
00:41:11in the last six months, specifically when it comes to Afghanistan and India.
00:41:16Now, post this escalation, there have been a number of times where in Pakistan has claimed that Afghanistan has become
00:41:24an Indian proxy.
00:41:26For you, for someone who has been on both sides, has witnessed both sides very intimately beat Pakistan or beat
00:41:32Afghanistan.
00:41:33In how much hold does, how much truth does this statement hold in today's day and age, when Pakistan claims
00:41:41that Afghanistan has become an Indian proxy?
00:41:46I firmly believe that this is totally baseless.
00:41:50The reason is that Pakistan doesn't accept Afghanistan as a sovereign state, a state that can have independent relations with
00:42:01any nation, with any country, with any organization.
00:42:04So how Pakistan dare to even point at what type of relationship Afghanistan is supposed to have with any nation,
00:42:13including India.
00:42:15With India, Afghanistan has a very historical relation.
00:42:20This was the same region.
00:42:22We have shared history, shared culture, everything is shared.
00:42:26We have even a large population of Afghans living in India.
00:42:29And we had, unfortunately, due to the conflicts and war, we had Sikh population, we have Hindu population.
00:42:36Even we today have.
00:42:39So it's a shared territory.
00:42:41We shared a history.
00:42:42So the thing is that the even the India, like before the when our King Amanullah declared independence, like the
00:42:55reclamation of independence, because it was a for a brief period of time against the British India.
00:43:00So at that time, the independence movement were going on in India, and the leader of that was Raja Mahindra
00:43:11Prathab.
00:43:11And in 1916, I believe, 16 or 17, the first government in exile of India was declared in Kabul.
00:43:25So it was 1916 and 17, way before Pakistan was born or Pakistan was created.
00:43:31So so it's a it's a relationship because Afghanistan was at that time an inspiration for the free world, because
00:43:37that was the first country who got reclaimed its independence from the colonial rule.
00:43:43And then like the Raja Mahindra Prathab was a Hindu.
00:43:47And then his cabinet was Mawlana Ubaidullah Sindhi.
00:43:50Mawlana Barakatullah was prime minister.
00:43:52So it was a true representation of an Indian, of a united India.
00:43:58So now it's very baseless because looking at all these history, these shared history relationship.
00:44:05So it's a it's a natural relationship.
00:44:07We have similar commonalities with Iran.
00:44:09We have with other central Asian states.
00:44:12So that doesn't make sense that Pakistan.
00:44:14But initially, when I pointed that what Pakistan wants is that they want to dictate Afghanistan.
00:44:21It should be a client.
00:44:22That's not acceptable.
00:44:23So then they will make excuses and blames.
00:44:27We have seen in last few months, ever since the takeover of Taliban there in Afghanistan, there have been lots
00:44:35of changes where it rules and reforms when it comes to women.
00:44:39Women rights are not being acknowledged at all there in Afghanistan.
00:44:43And now moving forward, the kind of strikes that have been taking place from Pakistan side, which has eventually led
00:44:52to several civilian casualties.
00:44:54Do you think at this point going to hurt the legitimacy of Taliban in Afghanistan?
00:45:02Yeah, that's one of the disaster of the Taliban government right now.
00:45:11They so far have not given the Afghans, Afghan men and women and youth in every sector their due rights.
00:45:21And it's unacceptable.
00:45:23And it's unacceptable.
00:45:24It's unbelievable.
00:45:25In 21st century, you are banning girls not to attend school.
00:45:28You are banning women not to go for work.
00:45:31So you are paralyzing the society.
00:45:3450 percent of the society are sitting home and not taking part in the society, in the development, in the
00:45:42rehabilitation.
00:45:43So we can see in India, it's a vibrant society.
00:45:47So women is part of every, every, every part of the society in the West.
00:45:51Even it's not comparable.
00:45:53But even in our region where we have India and other nations in Iran, you can see.
00:45:57So it's it's it's unbelievable.
00:45:59It's not it cannot sustain in this way.
00:46:03And that's one of the major demand of Afghan people that right from today, this ban should be lifted.
00:46:10Women should be allowed to work, to contribute in the development of the society.
00:46:14And women treat them as an equal human being, just like men.
00:46:18There is no difference.
00:46:19And there is no religious thing that you implement or enforce these your own oriented.
00:46:29Interpretation of Islam.
00:46:31We have leading Muslim countries, Muslim nations who are giving equal rights to all men and women.
00:46:37So that's one of the the drawback.
00:46:40The shortcoming are the I would say even that a disastrous policy of Taliban.
00:46:44It's a self harm or suicidal policy of Taliban.
00:46:47So we look forward that after suffering on the international and regional stage that even Pakistan is there to bomb
00:46:59without any impunity and without any fear and they hitting.
00:47:04So there is need to confront Pakistan with a united Afghanistan and the unity of Afghanistan is possible only when
00:47:13you give them equal rights.
00:47:15When you give the all the political rights, the civil rights, the human rights, including everything.
00:47:22So in that when you make a government inclusive of all ethnicities, of all political parties and everyone.
00:47:30So then you can make a strong Afghanistan which can confront Pakistan.
00:47:34The next question.
00:47:36What do you think is the most realistic path towards ceasefire in this situation?
00:47:43Do you really think TTP is really that big of a problem for Pakistan at this moment or is it
00:47:51just exaggerating to just justify its attacks on Afghanistan?
00:47:56Yeah, it's a it's not that major or bigger problem.
00:48:02Pakistan, Pakistan army is claiming to be the number that number and those number of the world army.
00:48:11They are having air power.
00:48:14They are having even nuclear power and whatever.
00:48:16Well, TTP is only in the tribal belts in the Pashtun area, which Pakistan intentionally created to have a proxy
00:48:27hand, to have an open hand, to have a proxy role in Afghanistan, because all the TTP, the area that
00:48:35they control or they have influence is along the Durand line.
00:48:38So it's not today for the past 50 years, they armed those people and they were supporting Mujahideen and then
00:48:47later Taliban and then again Taliban.
00:48:49So when you support and pump communities with weapons and with the extremist ideology to fight in Afghanistan, to fight
00:49:02in Kashmir.
00:49:03So what do you expect the third and fourth generation?
00:49:07So now they are raising questions that if you ask me to raise the Islamic flag or bring Islam into
00:49:15Kashmir and bring Islam into Kabul.
00:49:17So why not bring Islam into Islamabad?
00:49:20So that's now the question.
00:49:21It was raised for the past two, three decades.
00:49:24It's a Pakistan internal problem.
00:49:26They nurtured terrorism.
00:49:28They nurtured radicalism.
00:49:29They nurtured religious extremism.
00:49:31Now it's paying back.
00:49:33So that's the reason that, well, it's not that larger issue, but they want to have a threshold of the
00:49:42militancy in the tribal areas to justify the military presence.
00:49:47Because even the Durand line, which is, as I mentioned, it's not a legitimate international border.
00:49:56Afghanistan has never accepted it.
00:49:57But even there were no military because it was almost a buffer area.
00:50:04There were no military presence.
00:50:06But Pakistan, through this TTP and through the militants, they convinced the international community and met like the propagated that,
00:50:17OK, there is a need that I should intervene.
00:50:19And then in the past 2006 and seven and eight and nine, they intervened.
00:50:24And then they did atrocities against these tribal people because it was a semi-autonomous area.
00:50:30So it is a problem because some part is because they are radicalized and what they were taught by Pakistani
00:50:40military that you should sacrifice for Islam.
00:50:44Now they are sacrificing.
00:50:45But part is when they also differentiate as a good Taliban and bad Taliban.
00:50:50So there are still good Taliban, which they still want to keep maybe tomorrow to use against India in Afghanistan
00:50:56or somewhere else because they are getting projects from anywhere.
00:51:01And they are ready because it's a contracted army and military.
00:51:05So, yes, some part is problem, but some is their controlled insurgency.
00:51:11My last question to you, Mr. Shamsa, what are the expectations from the international community?
00:51:16And specifically, when we talk about India, given how we have seen several attempts have been made in the last
00:51:21six months, especially to strengthen the ties between India and Afghanistan.
00:51:26We saw how successful Mr. Mutaki's visit to India was.
00:51:32Lots of changes took place post that.
00:51:35So what are the expectations?
00:51:38Yeah, the expectations from international community, unfortunately, due to the illegitimacy of the Taliban government, it's not recognized the government
00:51:48globally.
00:51:49So it's a very huge problem for the under diplomatic front for the current defective authorities of Afghanistan.
00:51:58They have no representation in the United Nations in the Islamic Conference at the International Forum to project what Pakistan
00:52:07is doing.
00:52:07They are killing civilians and they are promoting their own agendas in the region.
00:52:14They're destabilizing the region.
00:52:15So this is one vacuum which needs to be filled.
00:52:19So it first goes to the Taliban government.
00:52:22They should make changes.
00:52:24They should get legitimacy domestically.
00:52:28And then based on those, they can then go for the international legitimacy.
00:52:33So that's one part.
00:52:35But in addition, in the meanwhile, the Pakistani military is destabilizing the region.
00:52:42It's not only threatening for Pakistan, but it's also for the region and those countries which are more vulnerable to
00:52:50Pakistani policies.
00:52:51They should also intervene.
00:52:53We know that due to the Middle East and the other international conflicts, now the attention toward Afghanistan-Pakistan conflict
00:53:01is quite minimized and we're not interested.
00:53:05But the regional players should be interested because it will affect them anyways.
00:53:10And I would say that India-Pakistan relationship should go beyond only rehabilitation or economic and development because they should
00:53:20think on defense cooperation also.
00:53:24Because that's one of the point that Pakistan has become very aggressive and they start attacking.
00:53:31You remember that when the Taliban foreign minister Muttaki was in Delhi, the first attack of Kabul happened, the bombardment
00:53:37happened on that visit.
00:53:39Yeah.
00:53:41Pakistan is very annoyed and irritated.
00:53:44It's obvious because of their mentality and their policies that they want a client state.
00:53:51So that's the point that India and Afghanistan should consider promoting defense ties also.
00:53:58They should consider whatever possible because it's a threat which is both the nations are facing.
00:54:06I would say not only both the nations, the whole region should become unified in fighting Pakistani, this hegemony and
00:54:15this aggressive and violent policy.
00:54:19Thank you, Mr. Shams, for your most unfiltered insights into South Asia is one of the most dangerous flashpoints.
00:54:27As the fragile ceasefire holds for now, the stakes will be higher.
00:54:33Thank you for your insights, Mr. Shams.
00:54:45What was your reaction or your thought around this attack which took place two days back?
00:54:51Pakistan then was a mass murder massacre of civilian Afghan people.
00:55:00Pakistan is doing this aggression for the last two, for the last five decades.
00:55:06They are blatantly interfering in the Afghan affairs.
00:55:15Pakistan is a liar state.
00:55:18It's part of their policy.
00:55:20They are even killing their own people through drone attacks.
00:55:24They are bombarding.
00:55:25It's not, it's matchless.
00:55:32What do you think is the most realistic path towards ceasefire in this situation?
00:55:37When you support and pump communities with weapons and with the extremist ideology to fight in Afghanistan, to fight in
00:55:49Kashmir.
00:55:50So what do you expect the third and fourth generation?
00:56:03Today, on March 19th, 2026, both Afghanistan and Pakistan are teetering on the edge of a full-scale war.
00:56:12Airstrikes have hit Kabul hospitals wherein over hundreds of civilian casualties.
00:56:19Many tens and thousands have been displaced.
00:56:23And now this has farmed the declaration of full-scale war.
00:56:27Today, we are being joined by Sagar Shams, who happens to be a former Afghan diplomat in Islamabad,
00:56:35and happens to know both sides intimately, and will explain as the real drivers behind this deadly escalation.
00:56:43Thank you, Mr. Shams, for joining us for this exclusive interview.
00:56:48Mr. Shams, first, I'd like to understand from you, what was your reaction or your thought around this attack,
00:56:55which took place two days back from Pakistan, wherein a Kabul hospital was targeted over 400 civilian casualties.
00:57:03What was your reaction?
00:57:05Thank you so much.
00:57:07So, in fact, what Pakistan done was a mass murder, massacre of civilian Afghan people.
00:57:14So I strongly condemn this act of aggression, this inhuman act of Pakistan, this barbarism of Pakistan.
00:57:23It's in no way acceptable.
00:57:27It's against the international law.
00:57:29It's against the international humanitarian law by targeting drug addicts or rehabilitation center.
00:57:38And they were hoping for a bright future.
00:57:41And most of them were completing their recovery treatment over there, and they were going, returning to their normal lives.
00:57:50But this is not the first time.
00:57:52Pakistan is doing this aggression for the last two, for the last five decades.
00:57:58They are blatantly interfering in the Afghan affairs.
00:58:03But since last year, they have started directly.
00:58:07Previously, they were using proxies to interfere and to increase its influence in Afghanistan.
00:58:13Now they have come forward and their evil military, which have very worst track record of human rights violation.
00:58:22They did in Bangladesh.
00:58:24They are doing it to their own people in Balochistan.
00:58:27They are doing atrocities against people in the tribal areas.
00:58:30They are killing Pashtuns.
00:58:31So now they are directly hitting and bombing civilians in Afghanistan.
00:58:36We witnessed last month that they bombed a family and killing 18 of a family members.
00:58:44And the international community, the world media, everyone saw that they witnessed.
00:58:49It was verified.
00:58:50The UN confirmed that these were purely civilians.
00:58:54And now the Kabul attack is also a civilian target they hit.
00:58:59Mr. Shams, if we look at the response that followed after this attack, this deadly attack,
00:59:05there has been a pattern as to how Pakistan responds when it comes to such attacks or when it comes
00:59:10to terrorist attacks.
00:59:11We are seeing the same kind of patterns when something like this has happened to India as well.
00:59:16So this time around as well, we have this statement from the Pakistan's information minister,
00:59:22wherein he has completely backed out from taking any responsibility of this attack and instead has gone on record saying
00:59:28it's a Taliban propaganda.
00:59:30How do you look at this response?
00:59:33The thing is that Pakistan is a liar state.
00:59:38It's part of their policy.
00:59:40They are even killing their own people through drone attacks.
00:59:43They are bombarding.
00:59:45It's matchless.
00:59:46And then never in the world you can see to bomb your own people, but they are bombing their own
00:59:52people.
00:59:52They killed hundreds of thousands of their own people in Bangladesh.
00:59:58And then the Bangla people were able to get their independence.
01:00:02So it's when you look at the track record of Pakistan military.
01:00:07So their hands are stained with blood of innocent people when they target their own people.
01:00:14So it's not like far from reality that they can target and they will deny.
01:00:18So everyone saw that last month they killed 18 of only one family, a one child and one adult was
01:00:26left in Jalalabad in Besut district.
01:00:28And now they killed a civilian and a totally, which should be protected under international law, a hospital, a treatment
01:00:37center.
01:00:38And they deliberately attacked it.
01:00:41They know that this center was turned.
01:00:44This was previously in a military area.
01:00:47But in 2016, 17, it was transformed into a treatment center.
01:00:52Everyone knows the international community.
01:00:54There were aid agencies extending aid and supporting that center.
01:00:59So it's an obvious.
01:01:00Pakistan has an embassy in Afghanistan.
01:01:02So it's not acceptable.
01:01:05They are lying.
01:01:07As we move forward and we talk about these strikes from Pakistan, what do you think of these strikes, Mr.
01:01:14Shams?
01:01:15Are these just a pressure tactic or is this a start of a war that could actually or has the
01:01:23potential to topple the Taliban government or Taliban room there in Afghanistan?
01:01:28I would say this is not a war against Taliban.
01:01:32It's war against Afghanistan.
01:01:33It's war against Afghan people.
01:01:35So they cannot topple Afghanistan.
01:01:38They are trying this for the last five decades.
01:01:42Afghanistan is a nation which has a strong roots.
01:01:46It's a nation.
01:01:47It's a united nation.
01:01:49It's it's not like divided just like Pakistan.
01:01:52There is no single entity in Afghanistan, single ethnic group or political group that want the disintegration of Afghanistan.
01:02:00Pakistan.
01:02:01But there are several parties.
01:02:04There are several ethnicities, political movements in Pakistan.
01:02:07They don't want to be with Pakistan.
01:02:10They say that it was a conspiracy that they became part of Pakistan, whether it's Pashtuns in the and the
01:02:17tribal areas, whether it's Baloch and even other people.
01:02:21Pakistan is not even a nation.
01:02:23It's a it's a it's a it's a setup that was made to implement the the agendas of the Western
01:02:29powers.
01:02:30So it's very obvious.
01:02:32So, yeah, they would like to destabilize Afghanistan.
01:02:36They want a civil war and civil fighting between different factions, which they are looking now to support.
01:02:43But this will fail because this time now I would I can say that almost 100 percent of Afghan people
01:02:51there against Pakistan.
01:02:52They hate Pakistan.
01:02:54They hate Pakistan.
01:02:54So previously we could say that, OK, now they were blaming India or other countries that they are motivating Afghans
01:03:01to act against Pakistan.
01:03:02Now it's 100 percent when you kill civilians.
01:03:05So no one will support you.
01:03:07So now Pakistan, since the their defense minister, their higher officials, their military officials, they are openly saying that Afghanistan
01:03:15is an enemy state.
01:03:17So for Afghanistan, it's now very clear that Pakistan is an enemy.
01:03:22You just made this mention about the defense minister and the kind of statement that he has been making.
01:03:28In your opinion, what how do you perceive what's going to be the timeline of this conflict that has been
01:03:35going on and off between Pakistan and Afghanistan specifically from last few months, given just last month only the defense
01:03:42minister declared that it's going to be an open war.
01:03:44How do you perceive the timeline?
01:03:46How do you perceive the timeline?
01:03:47So it's it's a planned war from Pakistani side.
01:03:51And we cannot also ignore the international developments, the regional developments, the fight and the war in the Middle East
01:04:00and how they try to become closer to the new U.S. administration.
01:04:07They want to implement their agendas.
01:04:11Also, President Trump openly told that I want Bagram Air Base.
01:04:14So so so it seems there are things that maybe in the background they have committed some projects to implement
01:04:24in this area.
01:04:24But the main reason is they want to destabilize Afghanistan.
01:04:29They want to destroy the infrastructure that were built in the past 20, 25 years with the support of international
01:04:36community, even if they dare to hit the hospitals and treatment centers and civilian houses.
01:04:43So they are destroying every infrastructure, even their leading journalists, they are advising their government to destroy the economy of
01:04:53Afghanistan, bridges, hospitals, road infrastructure, and even their crops and fields.
01:05:00So it's the the mindset of the Pakistan, which is a fascist regime.
01:05:04Sorry, I would say so looking at that.
01:05:08So it's a planned war from Pakistani side and it shows their frustration and desperation.
01:05:13They were thinking that when the Taliban come to power, so they will obey whatever they want.
01:05:20They would promote their foreign policy, their foreign agenda.
01:05:25And also they wanted that Afghanistan should become a planned state of Pakistan.
01:05:32But Taliban realizing their past 20 years, how they sold Taliban to the U.S. after 9-1-1 and
01:05:40how they treated and imprisoned them.
01:05:42So now Taliban is a bit different, their policy has changed.
01:05:46So now it enraged Pakistan and went to that level that they openly declared war against Afghanistan.
01:05:53Mr. Shams, if we talk about the factors in this conflict between Afghanistan and Pakistan, there are multiple factors.
01:06:01There's TTP, there's Taliban, there's Durant line also, this unrecognized factor.
01:06:08Do you think this is one of the driving factor which is leading to this fighting?
01:06:15And will Afghanistan ever be in a position to accept it?
01:06:19Yeah, that's of course, like when we said there are many reasons and there are many dimensions to this conflict.
01:06:27So one of the core issue is the Durant line and the Durant line is an issue that is the
01:06:32part of the Afghanistan territorial integrity.
01:06:38None of the Afghan government has ever accepted this international boundary.
01:06:45But the consecutive Afghan governments, they also in the meanwhile, they were not accepting the Durant line, but they did
01:06:54not declare any open war against Pakistan.
01:06:56And the reason was that on both sides of the Durant line, the same tribe, same people, same ethnicity, same
01:07:01language, same religion, they were living.
01:07:04Even in the previous presidency of President Karzai, he was open that even if Pakistan is shelling and mortaring or
01:07:15bombing mortars on Afghan soil of the Durant line, part of the Durant line, we will not hit back.
01:07:22Because Pakistan want to kill people on both sides so that we can be incited and we also hit back.
01:07:29So that was the policy. So now, like the Pakistan understands that the none of the Afghan government, even Taliban,
01:07:38which were believed to have close relations with Pakistan, they are unable to.
01:07:42They are unwilling to accept this as international boundary. So, yes, this is one of the core issue.
01:07:47But now we see that Pakistan's objectives are what envisage Pakistan is the beyond Durant line.
01:07:57They want to control Kabul even. They want to have access to the Central Asia and implement their evil agendas.
01:08:07Now the Taliban have even provided evidence that they are supporting the Daesh Khurasana, the ISIS.
01:08:14So it's an alarming thing, not only for Afghanistan, but for the region.
01:08:19They want to destabilize Afghanistan and then destabilize the whole region.
01:08:24Mr. Shams, if we talk about the recent foreign relationship developments, a lot has been shared, a lot has changed
01:08:33in the last six months,
01:08:35specifically when it comes to Afghanistan and India.
01:08:38Now, post this escalation, there have been a number of times where in Pakistan has claimed that Afghanistan has become
01:08:46an Indian proxy.
01:08:48For you, for someone who has been on both sides, has witnessed both sides very intimately, be it Pakistan or
01:08:54be it Afghanistan.
01:08:56How much truth does this statement hold in today's day and age when Pakistan claims that Afghanistan has become an
01:09:05Indian proxy?
01:09:08I firmly believe that this is totally baseless.
01:09:12The reason is that Pakistan doesn't accept Afghanistan as a sovereign state, a state that can have independent relations with
01:09:23any nation, with any country, with any organization.
01:09:26So how Pakistan dare to even point at what type of relationship Afghanistan is supposed to have with any nation,
01:09:35including India.
01:09:37With India, Afghanistan has a very historical relation.
01:09:42This was the same region. We have shared history, shared culture, everything is shared.
01:09:48We have even a large population of Afghans living in India.
01:09:51And we had, unfortunately, due to the conflicts and war, we had Sikh population, we have Hindu population.
01:09:58Even we today have. So it's a shared territory. We shared a history.
01:10:05So the thing is that the even the India, like before the when our King Amanullah declared independence, like the
01:10:17reclamation of independence, because it was for a brief period of time against the British India.
01:10:22So at that time, the independence movement were going on in India and the leader of that was Raja Mahindra
01:10:33Prathab.
01:10:34And in 1916, I believe, 16 or 17, the first government in exile of India was declared in Kabul.
01:10:46So it was 1916 and 17, way before Pakistan was born or Pakistan was created.
01:10:53So so it's a it's a relationship because Afghanistan was at that time an inspiration for the free world, because
01:10:59that was the first country who got reclaimed its independence from the colonial rule.
01:11:04And then like the Raja Mahindra Prathab was a Hindu, and then his cabinet was Mawlana Ubaidullah Sindhi, Mawlana Barakatullah,
01:11:13his was prime minister.
01:11:14So it was a true representation of an Indian, of a united India.
01:11:20So now it's very baseless because looking at all these history, these shared history relationship.
01:11:27So it's a it's a natural relationship.
01:11:29We have similar commonalities with Iran.
01:11:31We have with other central Asian states.
01:11:34So that doesn't make sense that Pakistan.
01:11:36But initially, when I pointed that what Pakistan wants is that they want to dictate Afghanistan.
01:11:43It should be a client.
01:11:44That's not acceptable.
01:11:45So then they will make excuses and blames.
01:11:49We have seen in last few months, ever since the takeover of Taliban there in Afghanistan,
01:11:56there have been lots of changes where it rules and reforms when it comes to women.
01:12:01Women rights are not being acknowledged at all there in Afghanistan.
01:12:06And now moving forward, the kind of strikes that are being taking place on Pakistan side,
01:12:12which has eventually led to several civilian casualties.
01:12:16Do you think at this point going to hurt the legitimacy of Taliban in Afghanistan?
01:12:24Yeah, that's one of the disaster of the Taliban government right now.
01:12:33They so far have not given the Afghan men and women and youth in every sector their due rights.
01:12:44And it's unacceptable.
01:12:45It's unbelievable.
01:12:46In the 21st century, you are banning girls not to attend school.
01:12:50You are banning women not to go for work.
01:12:53So you are paralyzing the society.
01:12:5650% of the society are sitting home and not taking part in the society, in the development, in the
01:13:04rehabilitation.
01:13:05So we can see in India, it's a vibrant society.
01:13:09So women is part of every, every, every part of the society in the West.
01:13:13Even it's not comparable.
01:13:15But even in our region where we have India and other nations in Iran, you can see.
01:13:19So it's, it's, it's unbelievable.
01:13:22It's not, it cannot sustain in this way.
01:13:25And that's one of the major demand of Afghan people that right from today, this ban should be lifted.
01:13:32Women should be allowed to work, to contribute in the development of the society.
01:13:36And women treat them as an equal human being, just like men, there is no difference.
01:13:41And there is no religious thing that you implement or enforce these, your own oriented interpretation of Islam.
01:13:52We have leading Muslim countries, Muslim nations who are giving equal rights to all men and women.
01:13:59So that's one of the, the drawback, the shortcoming or the, I would say, even that a disastrous policy of
01:14:05Taliban.
01:14:06It's a self-harm or suicidal policy of Taliban.
01:14:09So we look forward that after suffering on the international and regional stage that even Pakistan is there to bomb
01:14:21without any impunity and without any fear and they hitting.
01:14:26So there is need to confront Pakistan with a united Afghanistan and the unity of Afghanistan is possible only when
01:14:35you give them equal rights.
01:14:37When you give the, all the political rights, the civil rights, the human rights, including everything.
01:14:44So in that, when you make a government inclusive of all ethnicities of all political parties and everyone.
01:14:52So then you can make a strong Afghanistan, which can confront Pakistan.
01:14:56The next question.
01:14:58What do you think is the most realistic path towards ceasefire in this situation?
01:15:04A.
01:15:05B.
01:15:06Do you really think TTP is really that big of a problem for Pakistan at this moment?
01:15:12Or is it just exaggerating to just justify its attacks on Afghanistan?
01:15:18A.
01:15:18Yeah, it's, uh, it's not that, uh, um, major or, uh, bigger problem for Pakistan.
01:15:25Pakistan army is, uh, claiming to be the number, that number and those number of, uh, the world army.
01:15:33Uh, they are having air power.
01:15:36They are having even nuclear power and whatever.
01:15:38A.
01:15:39TTP is only in the tribal belts in the Pashtun area, which Pakistan intentionally created to
01:15:47have a proxy, uh, hand to have an open hand, to have a proxy role in Afghanistan, because
01:15:55all the TTP, the area that they control or they have influence is along the Durand line.
01:16:00A.
01:16:01So it's not today.
01:16:02For the past 50 years, they armed those people and they were supporting Mujahideen and then
01:16:09later Taliban and then again Taliban.
01:16:11So when you support and pump communities with weapons and with the extremist ideology to fight
01:16:23Afghanistan, to fight in Kashmir, so what do you expect the third and fourth generation?
01:16:29So now they are raising questions that if you ask me to raise the Islamic flag, uh, bring
01:16:36Islam into Kashmir and bring Islam into Kabul.
01:16:39So why not bring Islam into Islamabad?
01:16:42So that's now the question.
01:16:43It was raised for the past two, three decades.
01:16:46It's a Pakistan internal problem.
01:16:48They nurtured terrorism.
01:16:50They nurtured radicalism.
01:16:51They nurtured religious extremism.
01:16:53Now it's, uh, paying back.
01:16:55So that, that's the reason that, uh, well, it's not that larger issue, but they, they want,
01:17:02uh, to have a threshold of, uh, the militancy in the tribal areas to justify the military presence
01:17:09because, uh, even the Durand line, which is, uh, as I mentioned, it's not a, uh, uh, legitimate,
01:17:16uh, international border and Afghanistan has never accepted it, but even they, there, there,
01:17:23there were no military, uh, because it was almost a buffer area.
01:17:27There were no military presence, but Pakistan, uh, through this TTP and through the militants,
01:17:33they, uh, convinced the international community and met like the propagated that, okay, there
01:17:39is a need that I should intervene.
01:17:41And then the, in the past 2006 and seven and eight and nine, they intervened.
01:17:46And then they did atrocities against these tribal people because it was a semi-autonomous
01:17:51area.
01:17:52So, so it is a problem because some part is because, uh, they are, they are radicalized and
01:17:59they, what they were taught by Pakistani military that you should, uh, sacrifice for Islam.
01:18:06Now they are sacrificing, but part is when they also differentiate as a good Taliban and bad
01:18:12Taliban.
01:18:12So there are still good Taliban, which they still want to keep maybe tomorrow to use against
01:18:17India in Afghanistan or somewhere else because they are getting, uh, projects from anywhere.
01:18:23And they, they are ready because it's a contracted, uh, army and military.
01:18:27So, yes, some part is problem, but some is their controlled insurgency.
01:18:32Okay.
01:18:33My last question to you, Mr. Shams.
01:18:35Uh, what are the expectations from the international community?
01:18:38And specifically when we talk about India, given how we have seen several attempts have been
01:18:42made in last six months, especially to strengthen the ties of between, uh, India and Afghanistan.
01:18:48We saw how successful, uh, performed Mr. Motaki's, uh, visit to India was, uh, lots of changes
01:18:56to place post that.
01:18:57So, uh, what are the expectations?
01:19:00Yeah.
01:19:01Uh, the expectations, uh, from international community, unfortunately, due to the illegitimacy
01:19:07of the Taliban government, it's not a recognized government globally.
01:19:11So it's a very, uh, a huge problem for the under diplomatic front for the current defective
01:19:19authorities of Afghanistan.
01:19:20They have no representation in the United Nations in the Islamic conference at the international
01:19:26forum to, to project what Pakistan is doing.
01:19:29They're killing civilians and, uh, they're, they're promoting their own, uh, agendas in the
01:19:35region.
01:19:36They're destabilizing the region.
01:19:37So this is one vacuum which needs to be filled.
01:19:41So it first goes to the Taliban government.
01:19:44They should, uh, make changes.
01:19:46They, they should, uh, get legitimacy, uh, domestically.
01:19:50And then based on those, they can then go for the international legitimacy.
01:19:55Uh, so that's one part.
01:19:57In addition, in the meanwhile, uh, the Pakistani, uh, military is destabilizing the region.
01:20:04It's not only threatening, uh, for Pakistan, but it's also for the region and those countries,
01:20:10which are more vulnerable to, to Pakistani policies, they should also intervene.
01:20:15We know that the, due to the Middle East and the other international conflicts.
01:20:19It's now the attention toward Afghanistan, uh, Pakistan conflict is quite minimized.
01:20:25Uh, and we're not interested, but the region, regional players should be interested because
01:20:30it will, it will affect them anyways.
01:20:32Uh, and I would say that, uh, India Afghanistan relationship should be go beyond only rehabilitation
01:20:39or economic and development because they should think on a defense cooperation also.
01:20:45Uh, because that's one of the point that, uh, Pakistan is very become very aggressive and
01:20:52they start taking.
01:20:53You remember that when the Taliban foreign minister Muttaki was in Delhi, the first attack
01:20:58of Kabul happened for the bombardment happened on that.
01:21:01Yeah.
01:21:02Yeah.
01:21:03Pakistan is very annoyed and irritated.
01:21:06It's, it's obvious, uh, because of their, their mentality and their, uh, policies that
01:21:11they, they, they want a client state.
01:21:13So, so that's the point that the India and Afghanistan should consider, uh, promoting defense
01:21:20ties also.
01:21:21They should consider whatever possible because it's a threat, which is, uh, both the nations
01:21:27are facing.
01:21:28I would say not only both the nations, the whole region should, uh, become unified in fighting,
01:21:34uh, Pakistani, this hegemony, uh, and this, uh, aggressive and violent, uh, policy.
01:21:41Thank you, Mr. Shams, uh, for your most unfiltered insights into South Asia is one of the most,
01:21:47uh, dangerous, uh, flashpoints.
01:21:50As the fragile, uh, ceasefire holds for now, the stakes wouldn't be higher.
01:21:55Thank you for your insights, Mr. Shams.
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