00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:15important role that social workers play. This, as Malaysia faces calls from the UN to strengthen
00:22its social work system in all sectors. Joining me now is Jill Raja, who is a representative
00:28who is a co-optic committee member of the Sarawak Women for Women Society, which is part of the
00:36Social Worker Alliance Malaysia. Jill, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. We're
00:42talking about professionalizing social work. Maybe we can begin this conversation by you sharing a
00:48perspective as to why it's important that this profession is professionalized. And what does
00:55that mean to quote-unquote professionalize social work? Okay, so first, thank you very
00:59much for the invitation and for the questions. I think when we hear the word professionalize,
01:05you know, probably what will come to mind for your audience is somebody who is knowledgeable,
01:10who has a range of skills to apply that knowledge, who is ethical, that you feel there's a code
01:16of ethics there guiding them, so that you can trust the service that they are giving you. And that if
01:23anything did go wrong, you know there is a body that would be assessing whether it had been
01:29professional. So there's that trust. I think when you say to the public professionalizing social work,
01:36they scratch their heads because they don't really understand what social work is. And, you know,
01:42social work is used very loosely in Malaysia. It can be anything from philanthropy to helping out in a
01:49soup kitchen. So people would say, oh, why do you have to professionalize giving out soup to the poor,
01:54you know? And I'm sure that Citi explained the complexity of the task of social work. And so when
02:01you think of that, you realize that you need people who are really knowledgeable and able to deal. I mean,
02:09if your child had the tragedy of being abused in school or kindergarten and a child protection
02:17officer arrived, you would expect a professional service and not a lay person doing their best.
02:24So that's why the CRC is saying we have to professionalize social services.
02:30Right. The CRC being the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which recently did a
02:38review, a progress review for Malaysia. And in that included recommendations for Malaysia to strengthen
02:44our social work, professional social work. Can you talk to me a little bit about why
02:52that is considered foundational to child protection? You used an example of, you know,
02:59the unfortunate case of maybe a child being abused at kindergarten or in school. But
03:04what risks do children face when case management is not handled or is handled by someone who is
03:11untrained or under-trained? Okay. So let me look at the first part of that, of why
03:19CRC is saying social work is core. Child protection officers that are written into the law that we have
03:27child protection officers. These are employed by Kabajakan, the social welfare department.
03:34They should be trained social workers. We have a very core area. We're both assessing and we are
03:43implementing and looking after those children. So CRC recognizes the important role. And let me just
03:50spell that out a little bit more. You've got to be able to identify that the abuse has happened.
03:56Sometimes that's other people and you are brought in as a social worker. But even then, you've got to
04:02have that trained eyes. Take child sexual abuse. If you've got one child being sexually abused,
04:08who else has that perpetrator got access to? Which are the children? Also children often are shy to share
04:17what's happening. So you might not get the full picture of the range of abuse until the latest
04:23stage. So you've got the identification. Then you've got to work out what, why did it happen? What
04:30were the causes? What was the motivation around? And these can vary. You've got various forms of abuse
04:37and within that you can have a range of reasons. Let me take an example. Neglect. You could have that
04:43a
04:43child is neglected because the parent or whoever is the caregiver doesn't have the knowledge or is
04:51overwhelmed with other tasks and not being able to do. So the way that you come in is very different
04:57to if the neglect is, why have I been asked to look after this kid? I hate this kid. All
05:03my problems in
05:04my life are due to that kid. Yeah. And again, you get with physical abuse. You know, people can be
05:10stressed
05:10out one day and lash out. That's very different to a belief that you discipline a child with harsh
05:17punishment. So you've got to know what is causing before you can start looking to see how to help
05:26that child and improve. And you've also, if change is possible. And to do all of that, you've got to
05:34have
05:34good communication skills. You've got to be able to talk to the child. You've got to be able to talk
05:39to
05:39everybody, including the perpetrator, who could be defensive and not wanting to tell you the truth.
05:46You can't be naive, but you can't get emotional about it. You've got to have the skills. And you're
05:52also working with other agencies. So as a team, you are looking at what is the best interest of that
05:59child.
06:00So I think just by that, I'm trying to keep short, but it's complicated. You can see why that's
06:08professional. Now, the other side of your question about when people are untrained or under-trained.
06:14I think, you know, when you talk about child abuse, people get very emotive. It is an emotive area.
06:21But as a professional, you are trained to recognize your emotions, manage them, handle them,
06:27and make sure they don't interfere with the important tasks you're doing. The untrained person
06:32will just react. And actually, sometimes, although they mean well, they might make the situation worse.
06:39And even for a person partially trained or people beginning, you know, with quite substantial training,
06:46you would have supervision in this area. So more experienced colleagues, that you have a sounding
06:52board. And you get this in other professions. You know, you wouldn't expect
06:56a doctor just starting out to be able to do everything. You expect there to be a teamwork
07:02approach. So complex situations have the benefit of more experienced practitioners. So yeah,
07:10I've covered that. Definitely. So we have the Social Work Profession Bill in the works, which is
07:17wonderful and very important that we get this tabled and passed through Parliament. But there is a major
07:24concern with the exclusion of the public sector in the earlier versions of this bill. Can you walk us
07:31through why this is a critical omission not to include public sector social workers?
07:37Okay, maybe I can clarify. It's only last year that the public sector was taken out. In earlier versions,
07:45you know, there was a version ready to go around 2010, 2011, and then also prior to COVID. As far
07:52as we
07:53knew, the public sector were involved. And this is where the whole journey started off. Actually,
07:59back in the late 1990s, the universities were expanding, and we all got together. And one of our
08:06common beefs was that we were producing all these students. But because it was not mandated for JPA to
08:17recruit qualified social workers, they were recruiting other people. So our students were not getting the
08:23jobs, and people with different experience with getting. And the only way of changing that was to
08:29get a law. So about 12 years later, that was drafted. And then here we are, you know, 15 years
08:38later, 16 years
08:40later, hearing that the public sector is at this stage to be excluded. And it's critical that they're
08:47in. I mean, most of the people employed in social work are in the government sector. And I'm based in
08:54Sarawak. I don't know any private, I do know NGOs, there may be a few private in Sumananjung. But the
09:03vast
09:03majority are in the public sector. And we know that although there are skilled people in there,
09:10there are many posts that are not held by qualified people. So that is what we want to address. And
09:18we
09:19also, if the mandatory powers, like all the child protection work, it's only government employees that
09:26have those mandatory powers and go to court. And there's other areas like adoption and things like
09:31that. And also with adults, domestic violence. So you've, you've got your public sector is key. And
09:40then they also are the ones who monitor, you know. So when you get different scandals in different areas,
09:47it's them going out and also they're monitoring everybody, you know, the good places as well.
09:53So it's illogical that the social workers in agencies like the NGO I'm in are, might be monitored or
10:04looked at by people who have not got the same qualifications. So the government actually has said
10:11they would like to have the public sector in, but some went way down the line. And I know they
10:16want to get
10:17it in quickly. And that's one of the reasons I think there are other reasons for the delay. But really
10:23what the CRC is saying is, it's important, it is without delay, but it's important that the public
10:31sector is involved. And that's exactly what SWAM is saying as well. Right. So let's hope that we get
10:38this put back into the version of the social work profession bill. But what else would you like to
10:46see included in the bill when it's eventually tabled? Is there anything that the Social Work
10:50Alliance Malaysia is really pushing for? Okay, so obviously our priority is the inclusion of the
10:55public sector for reasons explained. The other one is about the regulatory council, the social work
11:02professional council that will be set up. And the importance of that as being an independent body.
11:09And it will have balance, should have balanced representation. So we're not saying that
11:14employers and the government as a major employer is not on that body. But we are saying it should be
11:20seen to be, and also not only seen, but to be independent. And this is the common practice
11:27in other professions. And again, the CRC is asking for regulatory, effective regulatory mechanisms and
11:36transparency. So we can't really have the employers having major power in that. They can be at the
11:48table. But we have to look at those mechanisms. And I think it's for everybody's best interest,
11:54including the employer. Because if anybody is complaining, they have trust in the professional,
12:03and the professional will be fair to everybody. So I think it's good for everybody that we have an
12:08independent regulatory. Absolutely. Jill, thank you so much for being on the show with me today. I
12:14appreciate your time. Jill Roger there from the Sarawak Women for Women's Society, as well as the Social
12:19Worker Alliance Malaysia. Wrapping up this episode of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris,
12:24signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
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