- 2 weeks ago
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TVTranscript
00:00:08It doesn't look like much right now, except for the incredible carpet.
00:00:16As you walk down the hallway, you'll turn the corner and open up a door into another world.
00:00:24And the first thing that you'll be confronted with in that world, a gorgeous Victorian house.
00:00:30And you'll think, why did I just pay $15 to come in and see a normal house?
00:00:36Eventually, you'll open up the refrigerator and the fridge will just continue.
00:00:43And you'll wind up in an interdimensional travel agency.
00:00:59This time last year, there was nothing left in the tanks for any of the artists.
00:01:07And we had literally $500 in the bank account the night before that we opened the doors to people.
00:01:14There was a lot of fear and anxiety.
00:01:16We can't control this anymore.
00:01:41We're going to this lit place now.
00:01:43Apparently, it's this psychedelic fun house in Santa Fe.
00:01:47Everyone who's in New Mexico is doing it.
00:01:49Meow!
00:01:52Okay, so there's shrimp on the wall.
00:01:54Like, what is happening?
00:01:56You guys look awesome.
00:01:58Oh, my God!
00:01:59Look, you are a meow wolf!
00:02:00Cut that first thing.
00:02:02It's a dress of stolen car.
00:02:05But I remember when you got too far.
00:02:07For the transformation takes it.
00:02:10Bloodlust takes it.
00:02:11Break up sides chain.
00:02:13I bought a strength.
00:02:14God, I like it.
00:02:16My heart's a flame.
00:02:18My body's a flame.
00:02:20For God, I like it.
00:02:22My mind's a flame.
00:02:24My body's a flame.
00:02:25For God, I like it.
00:02:27How we even got on this timeline, I don't know.
00:02:30I don't know if it was collectively being willed and we were navigating through dimensions or something.
00:02:35...
00:02:35I'll be your very brave, and I'll turn you back down.
00:02:52Hello.
00:02:53Oh, hi.
00:02:54All I know is that we're supposed to get, like,
00:02:57all juvied out, and I brought the entire squad.
00:03:00Some old, some new squad.
00:03:02I got some weird slime.
00:03:05Meow Wolf is this entity
00:03:09that is using us to channel itself into the world.
00:03:15Ooh, this is gross and cool.
00:03:17The Meow Wolf itself, the beast.
00:03:20I've talked to it on the Internet once.
00:03:22I was like, are you it?
00:03:23And it was like, yes, and I was freaking out.
00:03:25The thing about Meow Wolf 2
00:03:26is we don't know what we're doing,
00:03:28and we don't care.
00:03:34Santa Fe, New Mexico, to me, is the reason for Meow Wolf.
00:03:38You have this small town, about 70,000 people,
00:03:43over 300 galleries,
00:03:44the third largest art market in the country.
00:03:49Everything is geared towards tourists
00:03:51and what you'd consider, like, high-end arts.
00:03:55As cosmopolitan as it is,
00:03:57it's like, well, this is a safe form of art.
00:04:01The scene for, like, young, emerging artists
00:04:05who are trying to do something different or weird
00:04:07just didn't really exist.
00:04:10I'm making a wanted poster for the serpentine scourge.
00:04:12God, the studio and gallery arts world
00:04:15is a bunch of markety bullshit.
00:04:22We felt disenfranchised
00:04:23and, like, completely underrepresented.
00:04:25There is a social group that had formed.
00:04:29We felt like there was this apparatus of gatekeeping
00:04:32that was keeping us out of the art world.
00:04:35So it was like, well, if we're gonna be living in Santa Fe
00:04:37and having to work and wanting to make art,
00:04:40how is that gonna work?
00:04:43We were sort of, like, Santa Fe's orphans of neglect.
00:04:47We all organically just grouped together.
00:04:50We had a place called The Quadruplex
00:04:52that was four different houses all in one little lot,
00:04:54and everybody that we knew started to move in there,
00:04:56and we're, like, really supportive
00:04:57of whatever art people were doing.
00:04:59I was tired of, like, reading about people
00:05:00who had done interesting things.
00:05:02I wanted to be someone doing interesting things.
00:05:05It just felt, like, really cool
00:05:07to be a part of this social group,
00:05:08getting to be really, like, brash.
00:05:12Matt King!
00:05:13I often lose it.
00:05:18Matt, he's an animal.
00:05:21He was an animal back in the day.
00:05:23He was just feral.
00:05:30We had a lot of music shows in our basement.
00:05:34The police would come and shut everything down immediately,
00:05:37and there wasn't enough room,
00:05:38and people would get all pissed
00:05:39because, like, it was their house that was getting trashed.
00:05:41You guys woke me up.
00:05:43The police had concluded that there was a cult
00:05:46living in this apartment
00:05:48because there's clear signs of cult activity.
00:05:52We were like, we just need a space.
00:05:54Like, let's just finally get a space.
00:05:59It was like, we can't wait for others to invite us
00:06:02to be part of their world.
00:06:05It's time for us to just do what we want to do.
00:06:08I'm King Kazuma, and I come from the Oz dimension,
00:06:10and I'm trying to make something that lasts.
00:06:12Neo-tradition and taking back the, you know,
00:06:14Santa Fe Plaza for locals.
00:06:20I wanted to, like, be an agitator of things
00:06:23and really put work towards shaking up the culture
00:06:29of the city that I was born and raised in.
00:06:37So I was sitting in the parking lot of the Ramblin' Café,
00:06:42and I was eating a breakfast burrito,
00:06:44and this is probably a romanticized version of this story,
00:06:47but I looked up, and next to me across the street
00:06:50was this building that said, for lease.
00:06:53I did the math.
00:06:54I was, okay, so if 15 people got together,
00:06:57you know, $900 a month, okay, that's like $70 a person.
00:07:00Like, per month, we could totally afford this.
00:07:03So I started just, like, making calls.
00:07:04We can throw shows.
00:07:05We could do really weird things.
00:07:07We could have, like, sleepovers.
00:07:11Everyone just kind of, like, was like,
00:07:13yeah, cool, let's do it.
00:07:16Count me in.
00:07:17That sounds so amazing.
00:07:18Like, I want to be there.
00:07:20So 10 of us came together.
00:07:21We all threw down $100 a month.
00:07:23We rented a 900-square-foot space,
00:07:25and we just started working together.
00:07:26We said, what are we going to call it?
00:07:28We all sat in a circle
00:07:29and passed the hat around
00:07:31and drew names out of the hat,
00:07:33and everyone would draw two,
00:07:35and then we went around the circle
00:07:36reading the names.
00:07:39There was fighting.
00:07:41People were standing up
00:07:42and, like, shaking their fists
00:07:43and getting, like, really passionate.
00:07:45So many different possibilities came up.
00:07:50Then Meow Wolf was a combo
00:07:52that was thrown out there.
00:07:53I will admit I was one of the people
00:07:55at the beginning
00:07:55when the name Meow Wolf came up.
00:07:58It was like, no way.
00:07:59That's, no way.
00:08:00That's such a dumb name.
00:08:02And then when it came down to vote,
00:08:03it turned out that everybody
00:08:04actually voted for Meow Wolf,
00:08:05and it won unanimously.
00:08:07And I'm not sure why.
00:08:08Even at the time,
00:08:09everyone was like, really?
00:08:11Everybody was still kind of weirded out.
00:08:12Like, we're going to call it Meow Wolf?
00:08:14Like, that's not even a thing.
00:08:15I left that meeting just like,
00:08:17what are we doing?
00:08:18The amorphous beast was
00:08:20a mere zygote at the time.
00:08:46Quinn and I were like,
00:08:47well, let us have the first show.
00:08:50And everyone agreed.
00:08:51They knew what they wanted to do first.
00:08:53They were just like,
00:08:53let's jump into it.
00:08:54Let's jump into it.
00:08:55Let's do it.
00:08:55Let's do it really, really quick.
00:09:00Quinn was like this mega artist,
00:09:02super power, eccentric dude.
00:09:04Matt and I got very, very close
00:09:06very, very quickly.
00:09:07He became my best friend
00:09:08in the whole wide world.
00:09:10We painted everything together,
00:09:11every square inch.
00:09:13Very quickly, we ran out of room to paint.
00:09:16So we started building sculptures
00:09:17out of the paintings into the room.
00:09:20And it was this really liberating moment
00:09:23when no one was telling us what to do.
00:09:25And these ideas were just coming naturally
00:09:28as though they wanted to be built.
00:09:30And we were the medium at that point.
00:09:37That two week experience
00:09:38just sort of cracked everything open.
00:09:42set the tone for everything
00:09:44Meow Wolf ever did after that
00:09:46because it was like,
00:09:46oh, well, they're just going nuts.
00:09:51Way more people showed up than we thought.
00:09:53And like we got on the news,
00:09:55which is totally not an expectation at all.
00:09:57So how would you describe Meow Wolf?
00:10:00And how do you fit into the art scene?
00:10:02Meow Wolf is a venue for artists.
00:10:06It was created to give artists
00:10:09who felt like they were on the outside
00:10:10of the art market in Santa Fe
00:10:11looking in a voice.
00:10:13We started to feel this momentum
00:10:14and it felt really good.
00:10:16It felt like we were included
00:10:16for the first time.
00:10:21We started to hold meetings
00:10:23and that's when early constitution stuff
00:10:25started to get built.
00:10:26So it was like,
00:10:27who do we allow in these meetings?
00:10:28And it felt really strange to say
00:10:30these people over here,
00:10:31but not these people over here.
00:10:32So we were just like,
00:10:33fuck all that.
00:10:41It's about radical inclusivity.
00:10:43It's an open door.
00:10:46There was like the first sign we ever painted.
00:10:49It looked kind of like
00:10:49a really punk rock nursery school or something.
00:10:51And we were like concerned that
00:10:53what kind of people is this going to draw?
00:10:58All the types of weirdos,
00:11:00all the good and bad weirdos.
00:11:01I went to a meeting
00:11:03and the rest is history.
00:11:05I was just like ready to go.
00:11:14And then I say this.
00:11:15And then you say that.
00:11:16And then I say this.
00:11:17And then you say that.
00:11:18I think I like messaged Vince on Facebook
00:11:22asking if I could have a show
00:11:24at Meow Wolf.
00:11:25And the response was,
00:11:27no, we don't really do that,
00:11:28but you can come by and hang out.
00:11:31I've always kind of gravitated toward groups of people
00:11:33who are kind of saying fuck you a little bit.
00:11:37I thankfully got invited to come over
00:11:40and participate
00:11:42because I never would have gone on my own.
00:11:46I was too shy.
00:11:48It was impossible not to go back.
00:11:52We would just text the words meow now.
00:11:56Meaning like I'm going to go sit in this miserable
00:12:00freezing warehouse and paint shit.
00:12:03Do you want to glue shit to the walls?
00:12:13Meow Wolf itself, the beast, can spread out
00:12:16like with weird little tendrils.
00:12:18And like it chooses people
00:12:20and absorbs them into its amorphous blob.
00:12:26Rule number one, you have to show up.
00:12:29You have to come and hang out and talk to people
00:12:33and start making things.
00:12:35Rule number two, you have to get jumped in to the gang.
00:12:40And that's a very secret initiation process
00:12:43that I won't go into here, of course.
00:12:47I actually didn't plan to stay in New Mexico permanently.
00:12:56But I really wanted to work on this next installation.
00:12:59I decided to stay for that.
00:13:01And it ended up kind of changing my life.
00:13:09Emily and Benji were big artistic powerhouses
00:13:12in a lot of ways.
00:13:13I met Benji in high school.
00:13:15We were in an art class together.
00:13:17And she was just wearing this shirt that said,
00:13:18Emily is a strange girl.
00:13:20Benji and I formed a cult called the Star Gentle Euterians.
00:13:25And our mission was to transform your soul
00:13:29into digital data and migrate to the next level.
00:13:32Store it for you so you could live without your body
00:13:35and be immortal, essentially.
00:13:54The first show I took part in was Biome Neuronorb.
00:13:57That whole show was literally almost completely made out of garbage.
00:14:01We had no money.
00:14:03Me and Matt started, like, taking trips to Salvation Army
00:14:05and just pulling stuff out of their dumpsters.
00:14:08It was like a treasure hunt for us.
00:14:12The show grew out of the materials we could find.
00:14:15For Biome, I created this really weird assemblage.
00:14:20I basically, like, sat in a pile of trash for a month
00:14:23and was, like, zip-tying trash together
00:14:25and fixing it to the wall.
00:14:29Everybody's maximalist going to town
00:14:31on every single square inch of the room.
00:14:34Maximalism is way more stuff
00:14:36than you think is gonna actually be pleasing.
00:14:47I'm not much of a visual artist, you know?
00:14:49I've never really have been.
00:14:50But I'm, like, looking at all this stuff and realizing, like,
00:14:52okay, if we're creating a world,
00:14:54then who inhabits that world?
00:15:02Scotchy!
00:15:03We wanted to do something space cult,
00:15:06future sci-fi style.
00:15:09There was a mythology
00:15:11and there was pictures of the two, like,
00:15:13original people who formed this colony.
00:15:15The narrative is an access point
00:15:18for people who don't feel welcome
00:15:20in art galleries and museums
00:15:22to experience the work.
00:15:29I made this fishbowl
00:15:31with a creature inside of it
00:15:33and the creature's name is Buggy.
00:15:36Buggy!
00:15:37I ended up filling the fishbowl
00:15:39with clear jello.
00:15:41Everyone goes up to the fishbowl
00:15:43and, like, touches it.
00:15:44And these, like, crazy, like,
00:15:45petri dish-style organisms started to grow.
00:15:48So that was definitely a first time of being, like,
00:15:51I'm gonna make art that's in an environment
00:15:52that people are going to interact with.
00:15:57And in the end, I actually liked that
00:15:59because it became part of the piece.
00:16:01You know, I wanted to make this kind of, like,
00:16:02fucked-up organism,
00:16:04but what it actually turned into
00:16:05was even more fucked-up.
00:16:09Wow.
00:16:10Music video.
00:16:11That's not my boy.
00:16:15Those first handful of shows were messy.
00:16:23You know, for us,
00:16:25it was just this creative explosion.
00:16:28It was just, like, burning down
00:16:29some kind of old system
00:16:30and having, like, a hyper-phoenix
00:16:32of what art can be
00:16:34rising out of the ashes.
00:16:38We moved into this warehouse space.
00:16:40We kind of needed, like,
00:16:41a trashier building
00:16:42that we could trash even more.
00:16:44How did you find my secret lair?
00:16:49We just kind of all did whatever we wanted to do.
00:16:56Anyone who knew where the key was
00:16:58could book a show.
00:17:00All types of music.
00:17:02You know, like, punk and metal
00:17:03and, like, weird art stuff.
00:17:15The space on Hopewell and 2nd Street
00:17:17was the sketchiest shit
00:17:19I've ever witnessed in my life.
00:17:20Probably 200 extension cords,
00:17:22like, plugged into one another,
00:17:24like, wrapped around the rafters
00:17:25with, like, plastic bags around them.
00:17:27Basically, we almost killed Corvus.
00:17:29Those were pretty ragged times.
00:17:31Chaos!
00:17:36There's always been, like,
00:17:38this good, productive, I think,
00:17:39tension between
00:17:41the chaos and the order.
00:17:44A lot of people in the group
00:17:46kind of thrive on chaos.
00:18:00I brought an agenda for the first time
00:18:03to a meeting
00:18:03and I think it was Quinn
00:18:06or might have been Matt
00:18:07who literally crumpled it up
00:18:08and, like, threw it on the floor
00:18:09because that looked too much like
00:18:11the corporate world or something.
00:18:14We didn't want rules.
00:18:15We didn't want hierarchy
00:18:16and that presented a lot of problems.
00:18:20Total annihilation.
00:18:21We all had to fight
00:18:23for ideas and projects
00:18:24and sometimes that's, like,
00:18:25literal fighting.
00:18:33I started thinking about
00:18:35the bridge between idea and manifestation.
00:18:38Vince had ideas about a specific vision.
00:18:40That's, like, a big thing
00:18:42that he brings to the group.
00:18:43It just wasn't what we were doing, though.
00:18:44He moves very, very fast.
00:18:47And a lot of art cannot
00:18:50and should not.
00:18:51I saw the vision
00:18:52and I was very aggressive about it.
00:18:54He could see further out
00:18:56and for someone not concerned
00:18:58with further out,
00:18:59that's really annoying.
00:19:01I really didn't want to have, like,
00:19:02directors
00:19:03and that's what I was starting to feel
00:19:05was a lot of, like,
00:19:06directorial energy,
00:19:07a lot of, no,
00:19:08that's just not how it's going to be.
00:19:09And I'm like,
00:19:10who the fuck are you to tell me that?
00:19:12Vince was doing things
00:19:13that reminded people
00:19:14of the man or whatever.
00:19:17I had a really bad relationship
00:19:19with power and control.
00:19:20It was my way
00:19:21or the highway type of thing.
00:19:22He is the person
00:19:23that at the meetings
00:19:24will stand up
00:19:26and yell at all of you
00:19:28for, you know,
00:19:29for not agreeing with him.
00:19:31I remember a moment
00:19:31where I went into a Meow Wolf meeting
00:19:33and I was a little bit late
00:19:35and they had started the meeting without me.
00:19:40I wanted to help run the meeting
00:19:43and so, like,
00:19:43I was chiming in
00:19:44with sort of ideas
00:19:45and I remember Corvus and Sean
00:19:46sitting next to each other
00:19:47and sort of, like,
00:19:48tag-teaming against me
00:19:49to kind of, like,
00:19:50keep me out.
00:19:51Or at least that's what it felt like
00:19:52to me at the time.
00:19:53Probably wasn't true.
00:19:55And so I remember looking at them,
00:19:57two of my closest friends at the time,
00:19:59and just being like,
00:19:59okay, fuck all you.
00:20:02I'm out of here.
00:20:02I'm not part of Meow Wolf anymore.
00:20:04In the great unknown
00:20:06They left me alone
00:20:10And I wondered why
00:20:12Till I realized
00:20:16I don't participate
00:20:19Outside my picky game
00:20:22When I re-realized
00:20:24Why they left me alone
00:20:32I've known Vince for half my life.
00:20:36He's just always been a total force.
00:20:39But he wasn't always so confident.
00:20:42I had a really traumatic high school experience.
00:20:45I was a closeted gay kid
00:20:46who had severe acne
00:20:49and was overweight
00:20:51and I didn't really have any real friends.
00:20:58With Meow Wolf,
00:20:59I started to discover myself
00:21:00as a leader
00:21:01and as somebody who could bring people together.
00:21:03It was my first time as an adult
00:21:05where I felt committed to something
00:21:07that I was willing to be committed to
00:21:09for the rest of my life.
00:21:10And so...
00:21:12When I saw them doing really good work without me
00:21:14it was devastating.
00:21:15It was like...
00:21:16It was devastating.
00:21:22I've known Benji and Emily
00:21:24and some of the other Meow's
00:21:26since they were teenagers.
00:21:27When they did Geodecadent
00:21:29I was like,
00:21:31Oh my God, Linda.
00:21:31You have to see this.
00:21:32So I went to see them
00:21:34in this rabbit warren
00:21:37of dangerous ladders
00:21:39and little rooms
00:21:41and strange things
00:21:42and I totally loved it.
00:21:45I just...
00:21:45I loved it.
00:21:46Linda Durham,
00:21:47local gallerist,
00:21:48hyper-famous,
00:21:50queen of contemporary art in Santa Fe.
00:21:52She invited them
00:21:52to redo Geodecadent
00:21:54in the gallery space.
00:21:56I thought,
00:21:57people need to see this.
00:21:58This is the new art.
00:22:04Being that it was
00:22:05a big name art gallery,
00:22:07I made the decision
00:22:09to curate
00:22:10who was gonna be in that show.
00:22:11It was limited
00:22:12to just eight people.
00:22:15It was the first thing
00:22:17that we did
00:22:17that wasn't
00:22:18radically inclusive.
00:22:20There was a composition to it.
00:22:22There was an artistry to it
00:22:23that couldn't really just be
00:22:25everybody doing everything.
00:22:30It really did lead
00:22:31to a wider kind of audience
00:22:34for them.
00:22:35All of a sudden,
00:22:36people are noticing.
00:22:37Credit started becoming
00:22:39a really big concept
00:22:40in not just my head,
00:22:42but everyone's head.
00:22:43And people are grabbing
00:22:45for credit.
00:22:46All of us want acknowledgement,
00:22:48but at that age,
00:22:49you need it.
00:22:52And so there was a meeting
00:22:53at the Dome one day
00:22:54where I just sort of lost it.
00:22:59I couldn't...
00:23:00couldn't do it anymore.
00:23:01He moved out without,
00:23:03you know,
00:23:04really telling anyone
00:23:05he was moving out.
00:23:06It was an incredible disappointment.
00:23:18In that period of time,
00:23:20as suicidal,
00:23:22I didn't really have any friends,
00:23:24and I felt kind of lost.
00:23:26And then I met this guy
00:23:28named David Lockridge
00:23:31who kind of came into my life
00:23:32out of nowhere.
00:23:35Became my best friend
00:23:36and confidant.
00:23:38So it was a moment of healing
00:23:39for me in my life
00:23:40at that point.
00:23:45He was looking for community
00:23:46in Santa Fe
00:23:47and was really interested
00:23:49in Meow Wolf.
00:23:50So he inspired me
00:23:51to try to get myself
00:23:52back involved.
00:23:54And I was like,
00:23:55man, I really, like,
00:23:56want to be part of Meow Wolf again,
00:23:57but I don't really want
00:23:57to engage in the same
00:23:58sort of, like, structure.
00:24:01After Geodecadent,
00:24:02there was a bunch of different ways
00:24:03that we had tried
00:24:04to work together
00:24:05and tried to deal with
00:24:06this kind of chaotic
00:24:08working method,
00:24:09and it, like, failed
00:24:10and succeeded
00:24:11in lots of different ways.
00:24:12It was a hard time, though.
00:24:14I think a lot of it
00:24:15had to do with Vince
00:24:15not being there.
00:24:16He was, like,
00:24:17a powerful glue
00:24:19and force.
00:24:21Brought people together
00:24:22and propelled them.
00:24:25I reached out to him,
00:24:26and we started having
00:24:27these morning meetings.
00:24:29I was about ready
00:24:29to leave, too.
00:24:30We were gonna start
00:24:31a new collective
00:24:32called Super Meow Wolf,
00:24:33and then people
00:24:34could have the choice
00:24:35whether they wanted
00:24:36to go to a Meow Wolf show
00:24:37or to a Super Meow Wolf show,
00:24:38and that was, like,
00:24:39a really dick thing
00:24:40to think about.
00:24:41But we did talk about that.
00:24:42But we arrived
00:24:43to this conclusion
00:24:44that if Meow Wolf
00:24:44is completely open,
00:24:46and inclusive,
00:24:47then that can include us,
00:24:49even if we want to have
00:24:50some amount
00:24:51of organizational structure
00:24:52and roles.
00:24:54That intention
00:24:55and that momentum
00:24:57became The Moon Is To Live On.
00:24:59I told you.
00:25:00I was visiting a time-space.
00:25:03Whatever.
00:25:03It doesn't matter.
00:25:04A spirally void
00:25:05could open up tomorrow
00:25:06and take us to a completely
00:25:08different reality.
00:25:09We wrote this, like,
00:25:11huge, ambitious, crazy play.
00:25:13The play was inherently
00:25:14Vince's brainchild,
00:25:16but people were
00:25:16into the idea enough
00:25:18that it became
00:25:19a Meow Wolf show.
00:25:20I saw that as an opportunity
00:25:22to really open the doors
00:25:23for more people
00:25:26to get involved again,
00:25:27because that was
00:25:27what was kind of missing
00:25:28at the time.
00:25:30David was the star
00:25:31of this play.
00:25:32Here, Robert.
00:25:33Eat your bacon.
00:25:33Don't tell me what to do.
00:25:35I don't feel like bacon.
00:25:36I'm going to work.
00:25:40Bacon?
00:25:41Bacon!
00:25:42That's crazy, man.
00:25:43Yeah, I don't know.
00:25:44You haven't seemed very happy lately.
00:25:46I got to really get close
00:25:48with David,
00:25:48and his energy, like,
00:25:50ended up really adding
00:25:52to the whole group
00:25:53and sort of transforming
00:25:54Meow Wolf in lots of ways.
00:25:56Well, I'm an amateur
00:25:57storyteller,
00:25:57or something.
00:26:00It was an actual play
00:26:00that was put on,
00:26:02except it was done
00:26:03in a Meow Wolf way.
00:26:04It was, like,
00:26:05pushing three,
00:26:06it was, like,
00:26:06two and a half hours
00:26:07or, like, three hour play
00:26:08of just total nuts.
00:26:09And, like,
00:26:10all the stuff
00:26:11that we wanted to do
00:26:12were justified
00:26:12in the dream world
00:26:14of the protagonist character.
00:26:23By nature,
00:26:24it had to be a lot
00:26:25more structured
00:26:26than our other shows.
00:26:28I don't like
00:26:28to plan like that.
00:26:29Why do we have
00:26:30to plan like that?
00:26:31A lot of people
00:26:31really started to feel like,
00:26:33not as much anarchy
00:26:34as I'm comfortable with,
00:26:35but at the same time,
00:26:36we would have never
00:26:37pulled off the play
00:26:38without structure
00:26:39and hierarchy.
00:26:40It's like a weird thing
00:26:41to say in the context
00:26:42of an anarchic
00:26:43art collective,
00:26:44but strong leadership
00:26:46and a strong vision
00:26:47actually does
00:26:48cohere people.
00:26:50And that started
00:26:51a whole next chapter
00:26:52of Meow Wolf
00:26:53where I was welcomed back.
00:26:57We were realizing
00:26:58more and more,
00:26:59okay, like,
00:26:59we need some amount
00:27:01of structure.
00:27:02And we probably should
00:27:03start, like,
00:27:03raising money
00:27:04and, like,
00:27:05thinking about a budget.
00:27:06And, you know,
00:27:07we did that for the play.
00:27:08Like, let's do that
00:27:09for another big installation.
00:27:20The writing was on the wall
00:27:21for me.
00:27:21Like, I don't think
00:27:22Meow Wolf is a place
00:27:23anymore.
00:27:24I think Meow Wolf
00:27:25is a group of people.
00:27:27I've been looking
00:27:28in a new direction.
00:27:30This group of people
00:27:32can do anything we want.
00:27:34We'd be, like,
00:27:35sitting around
00:27:35and dreaming together.
00:27:36Yeah, we're gonna get
00:27:37a show at CCA
00:27:38and then we're gonna get
00:27:40really popular
00:27:42and that's gonna launch us.
00:27:47Corvus and Sean
00:27:49and Vince invited me
00:27:50to come over
00:27:50for their Thursday meetings.
00:27:52And that lit the fuse, man.
00:27:54We got together and we talked
00:27:55about what that show
00:27:56could look like.
00:27:57Chris Hilson said
00:27:58we should do his ship.
00:27:59We were trying to figure
00:28:00out one piece
00:28:01that was large enough
00:28:02for everybody
00:28:03to actually have different
00:28:04portions of control,
00:28:06different rooms.
00:28:07It was like,
00:28:07wow, this could be
00:28:08really cool.
00:28:09A big boat
00:28:10in this space.
00:28:12We were all really excited
00:28:13and really scared
00:28:15because we were like,
00:28:16oh, shit,
00:28:17that thing is huge.
00:28:18It was 6,000 square feet.
00:28:19It was, like,
00:28:20three times the size
00:28:21of the space that we had.
00:28:22And I just said,
00:28:23if you need to spend the night,
00:28:25work all night,
00:28:26that's fine.
00:28:26If you need to sleep,
00:28:28okay.
00:28:29Get hungry?
00:28:30Want to cook something
00:28:31in the back?
00:28:31Yes.
00:28:32I don't think I said that
00:28:33ever before
00:28:35and probably not since,
00:28:36but this is such
00:28:38an extraordinary project.
00:28:43Man, we wanted it
00:28:44so badly.
00:28:45We knew that we were
00:28:46doing something
00:28:47that was, like,
00:28:48kind of crazy.
00:28:49Something so ambitious
00:28:51that we're not sure
00:28:52if we can pull it off
00:28:53or not.
00:29:00And it was crazy.
00:29:04It was a really crazy project
00:29:05to commit ourselves to.
00:29:07I mean,
00:29:07we basically said
00:29:08that we're going
00:29:09to raise $50,000.
00:29:11And when I said
00:29:12that number,
00:29:12the group was just, like,
00:29:15that's fucking insane.
00:29:17that's way too much money.
00:29:19And we'll never get it.
00:29:21And, you know,
00:29:22we raised $50,000
00:29:23and we spent every bit of it.
00:29:25And it was all
00:29:26spent on materials.
00:29:27Not a single person got paid.
00:29:36Sean and Vince and David,
00:29:39Matt King and Katie Kennedy
00:29:40really took very good charge
00:29:42and were able to herd the cats,
00:29:46as it were.
00:29:47Making it, like,
00:29:48organized enough
00:29:49and, like,
00:29:50a certain amount
00:29:50of left brain enough
00:29:51that you can actually execute
00:29:52the idea.
00:29:53Because otherwise,
00:29:53it would just be
00:29:55tangential screaming
00:29:56in a warehouse
00:29:57for eternity,
00:29:58which is also
00:29:58a good show idea,
00:29:59I think.
00:30:07The way that it was structured.
00:30:09We had essentially,
00:30:10like, five teams.
00:30:11The ship.
00:30:12One strip on this side.
00:30:13One strip on this side.
00:30:14The archive.
00:30:16The people on this ship.
00:30:17Go to the archive
00:30:18and figure out
00:30:18how to do something
00:30:19really particular.
00:30:20The environment.
00:30:21I kind of just need
00:30:22to be here
00:30:23all day, every day.
00:30:25Performance.
00:30:26The captain from
00:30:26all those eras
00:30:27is Captain King.
00:30:28So if someone
00:30:29wants to develop him.
00:30:31And...
00:30:32Tech.
00:30:33What is it that
00:30:33you guys are doing
00:30:34on that wall?
00:30:35Oh, we're listing
00:30:37all of the components
00:30:38of the control surfaces
00:30:40and trying to figure out
00:30:41dimensions for all of them
00:30:42so we can arrange things.
00:30:43That was our first real go
00:30:45at having a tech team
00:30:47and having interactive components.
00:30:50My specific role has sort of evolved
00:30:53into a weird kind of combination
00:30:56of architect slash engineer
00:30:59slash general contractor.
00:31:03That was, like, tough for me
00:31:04because I wasn't used to having
00:31:06that role.
00:31:07I wasn't totally committed
00:31:08to that role.
00:31:10There's this part of me
00:31:11that wanted to just be an artist.
00:31:13People were looking to me
00:31:15to make decisions about stuff
00:31:17and sometimes I just, like,
00:31:18lost my shit.
00:31:23People were going to work
00:31:24still four or five
00:31:25whatever days a week
00:31:26to make their money
00:31:28and then often spending that money
00:31:29and all of their extra time
00:31:31to make this thing.
00:31:33Which was, like,
00:31:34what the hell?
00:31:36Like, I've got to see
00:31:36where this goes.
00:31:37I'd come in in the morning
00:31:38and people would be asleep
00:31:39on the floor
00:31:40from just going to sleep
00:31:41a couple hours before
00:31:43working all night.
00:31:43We were just so tired, you know?
00:31:45And just there all the time.
00:31:47It kind of stresses me out,
00:31:48like, thinking about it.
00:31:50I'm like, oh, my God.
00:31:58Does everybody fit through this?
00:32:00There were probably
00:32:01around 100 people
00:32:02who contributed to this ship
00:32:03and that was, you know,
00:32:04the moment where Meow Wolf
00:32:05really got its hooks into me.
00:32:07One, two, three.
00:32:08Because I'd never experienced
00:32:10working with a group
00:32:12of people in that way.
00:32:18There's, you know,
00:32:1950 people that are all
00:32:21doing little things
00:32:22that may, in, you know,
00:32:24comparison to the entire
00:32:25whole of this project
00:32:26feel inconsequential,
00:32:27but when you put all
00:32:28those together,
00:32:29that is the project.
00:32:30That's what makes it
00:32:31so incredible.
00:32:34David was so solid
00:32:36through the due return.
00:32:41Okay, on three, we're gonna
00:32:43jump up and down
00:32:44and say Meow.
00:32:45He did stuff
00:32:46that nobody else
00:32:47wanted to do.
00:32:48And it was incredible.
00:32:49We couldn't have done that
00:32:50show without him.
00:32:55He was a workhorse
00:32:57and he had a big truck
00:32:59and he had a trailer
00:33:00and he was the guy
00:33:01that loaded the stuff up,
00:33:03moved everything,
00:33:03and was a positive spirit
00:33:05and a motivator
00:33:07to the group.
00:33:07But I'm just looking for one
00:33:09person.
00:33:09So, if you want to volunteer
00:33:10for that, see me after the meeting.
00:33:12Nick?
00:33:12Cool.
00:33:13I have my volunteer.
00:33:14Sweet.
00:33:14He sided, like, the entire ship
00:33:16by himself.
00:33:18I always thought it was so cool
00:33:19that he had, like, all the tools
00:33:20and they were all organized
00:33:21and everything was perfect
00:33:23and he was perfect.
00:33:26Just love David.
00:33:27He was definitely a born peacemaker
00:33:30and I think he was able
00:33:32to understand people
00:33:34and where they're coming from
00:33:35and we needed those people
00:33:38that could just get in between
00:33:39and be like,
00:33:40you are both valid.
00:33:42We need you both.
00:33:44Stop fighting.
00:33:45It's been good.
00:33:46It's been really positive,
00:33:48yet really exhausting.
00:33:52Stressful.
00:33:55We have three weeks
00:33:56and it looks like
00:33:57it's about to be done,
00:33:57but that amount of people
00:33:59it kind of just flies.
00:34:00We're like,
00:34:01shit, I hope people come.
00:34:02You know, like,
00:34:02we've been working on this thing
00:34:03so hard for so many months.
00:34:05I remember the day
00:34:06before we opened,
00:34:06Vince and I were walking around
00:34:07and he's like,
00:34:08what did we do?
00:34:09What the fuck did we do?
00:34:11This is stupid.
00:34:12Exhaustion.
00:34:13Doubt.
00:34:14Are we creating something
00:34:16that people are actually
00:34:17gonna like or are people
00:34:17gonna walk in this and say,
00:34:18what a bunch of fucking
00:34:21masturbatory bullshit.
00:34:25I remember there was a moment
00:34:27for fifteen minutes
00:34:28from opening the door
00:34:29and we all crack
00:34:31a few bottles of champagne.
00:34:33We should feel proud of ourselves
00:34:35as a group.
00:34:36It takes hard times
00:34:38and we kept going
00:34:39and I just,
00:34:41that's what it takes
00:34:42and I just,
00:34:43like,
00:34:44incredible job.
00:34:46Thank you guys.
00:34:47And I'm just proud of everybody.
00:34:48I'm so proud of everybody
00:34:49and I apologize
00:34:50if I've ever been
00:34:50a little bit of a bitch.
00:34:53Because I know
00:34:53I'm guilty of that.
00:34:54But I just wanted to say
00:34:55thank you to everybody.
00:34:56You guys,
00:34:57you guys,
00:34:58you guys just...
00:35:00You guys just...
00:35:01Yeah!
00:35:02Shake this in on.
00:35:03To the top.
00:35:04To the top.
00:35:17My new family!
00:35:19Yeah!
00:35:22It was just such a sweet moment
00:35:24because we could literally hear
00:35:26a thousand people outside.
00:35:28And we knew that we,
00:35:29at that point,
00:35:30had done something
00:35:31that was remarkable.
00:35:42So it was, like,
00:35:43totally magical.
00:35:45That's a moment
00:35:46that you kind of get addicted to
00:35:47is when you actually see
00:35:49what you've done through
00:35:50somebody else's eyes
00:35:51for the first time
00:35:51and you remember
00:35:52why you were doing it
00:35:53in the first place.
00:35:57The sense of accomplishment
00:35:58was pretty spectacular.
00:36:19seeing these people of all ages,
00:36:21all kinds,
00:36:22all types, you know.
00:36:23Not the kind of people
00:36:24that you would see
00:36:25walking into the
00:36:26Miami Art Museum,
00:36:27the Walker Art Center,
00:36:29or other places
00:36:29that I've worked.
00:36:38So how long did it take you guys
00:36:39to build this?
00:36:40Uh, we've been working on it
00:36:41since 82.
00:36:42How long did it take you guys
00:36:44to build this?
00:36:45You know,
00:36:47with time travel and all,
00:36:49it was pretty quick.
00:36:51Because, you know,
00:36:51all we had to worry about
00:36:52was those paradoxes.
00:36:54It was pretty immediate
00:36:55the way the press
00:36:56responded to it.
00:36:57I mean, we were on the cover
00:36:57of, like, every local
00:36:59arts and culture magazine.
00:37:01I just remember the
00:37:01intricacy of it
00:37:02and the details of it
00:37:04were you could have just
00:37:06spent hours in there
00:37:07looking at all the pieces of it.
00:37:09I was one of those people
00:37:10that was just totally,
00:37:11like, which bunk
00:37:12am I gonna take a nap
00:37:13in this afternoon?
00:37:14I, like,
00:37:15completely fell in love with it
00:37:16and went back
00:37:17as many times as I could.
00:37:18I mean, I would've lived
00:37:19in that intergalactic
00:37:21pirate ship if they
00:37:22had wanted to hire me
00:37:23as a caretaker.
00:37:24It's a unique experience.
00:37:26The art world needs that.
00:37:29They need to get
00:37:31shaken up a little bit.
00:37:42People loved it.
00:37:43It ran for three months
00:37:45and we saw 25,000 people
00:37:47through the door.
00:37:48We asked for, like,
00:37:50a $10 donation.
00:37:51The year before,
00:37:51we'd be like,
00:37:52cool, there's, like,
00:37:5320 bucks in the donation
00:37:54box tonight.
00:37:55Like, let's buy some beer.
00:37:57We made, like,
00:37:57$125,000 off that show.
00:38:02And I was literally, like,
00:38:03taking cash
00:38:05and putting it in shoeboxes
00:38:07because I didn't know
00:38:08what to do with it.
00:38:10So, literally, like,
00:38:10under my bed was, like,
00:38:11$125,000 stashed in shoeboxes.
00:38:17At that moment,
00:38:18I realized that we had
00:38:19a product on our hands,
00:38:20something that we could
00:38:21actually use to create
00:38:22a sustainable business.
00:38:36This is closing night
00:38:37of the ship.
00:38:37This is our last night.
00:38:38We've had an amazing run.
00:38:40This one, personally,
00:38:41and from, like,
00:38:41me, I also want to thank
00:38:42everybody who came here.
00:38:43You guys are all stuck
00:38:44here now, too,
00:38:45because it's flooded outside.
00:38:47And we also never promised
00:38:48that this boat would float.
00:38:53The ending night of the show
00:38:55was just this biblical deluge,
00:38:58flooding the area outside
00:39:00of the gallery,
00:39:01and water starts coming in.
00:39:05We're trying to mop out the water.
00:39:07Here comes the rain
00:39:08to take away the ship now.
00:39:22It's pretty surreal.
00:39:24I'm feeling like an agent of entropy
00:39:26right now.
00:39:28It was really sad to break it down.
00:39:30We didn't know what we were doing next.
00:39:40Where to go from here was huge,
00:39:43so I think we had this kind of identity crisis.
00:39:45So this project happens
00:39:46where everybody pours
00:39:48their heart and soul into
00:39:48and volunteers all of their time.
00:39:51Then you throw in all this money,
00:39:53and you throw in this, like,
00:39:56possibility that we're actually going to transition
00:39:58from a collective to a business,
00:40:00and everyone just starts to freak out.
00:40:01There was a lot of existential questions.
00:40:03What do we do with the money?
00:40:05Who gets to decide?
00:40:07How do we function as an organization?
00:40:09You know, how do we feel about hierarchy?
00:40:13And there ensued 100 hours of group conversation
00:40:18and debate, excruciating at times.
00:40:21I started to think about,
00:40:23well, what does success look like?
00:40:25How can we continue to do this?
00:40:26Vince was coming from one direction,
00:40:29very specifically, like,
00:40:30with very hard-nosed ideas.
00:40:33He and Corvus had always had this business mentality.
00:40:37There's all this, like, hatred and angst
00:40:39and skepticism, rightfully so, around capital.
00:40:44There was a lot of resistance against them.
00:40:47And a lot of people were like,
00:40:48oh, the soul of Meow Wolf is going to be crushed
00:40:49if we start getting paid,
00:40:50because then we'll start, you know,
00:40:51doing it for the completely wrong reasons,
00:40:53and it's not going to be punk anymore.
00:40:54I think that was kind of, like,
00:40:56in the back of people's minds,
00:40:57like, I don't want to make this a business
00:40:59because I want to feel like I have the power
00:41:01to make what I want to make,
00:41:02and I don't want to be told what to make,
00:41:04and I definitely don't want to be somebody's bitch.
00:41:07We just clashed.
00:41:10You know, we clashed big, big fights.
00:41:12Man, I remember people just being angry,
00:41:15yelling, shouting people down.
00:41:17I mean, it was insane.
00:41:19It was too much.
00:41:20I just decided, you know what,
00:41:21I want to study my own stuff.
00:41:22I want to, like, work on my own stuff.
00:41:24I took time off after the jury turned
00:41:25because I just felt, like, really spent by it.
00:41:29I can't blame anybody for the fact
00:41:32that I decided to take on a huge amount
00:41:34of responsibility in that project,
00:41:35but I felt resentful about it.
00:41:38I needed to step away from that.
00:41:41I also needed to, like, spend some time
00:41:43doing my own thing.
00:41:47People come and go for many different reasons
00:41:50because it can get terrifying
00:41:52to be part of this mutant creation
00:41:55that we've all had a hand in.
00:41:57I thought the future would be cooler.
00:42:00I thought the future would be cooler, cooler, cooler.
00:42:13The owl wolf itself, the beast,
00:42:15we're kind of subject to its whims
00:42:17while still creating it.
00:42:19And you can leave it if you want,
00:42:21but it's about this creation,
00:42:24the beast controlling us
00:42:25as opposed to how individually
00:42:26we would, like, maybe inherently feel.
00:42:30Who we are and what we want to represent
00:42:32is always going to be a question.
00:42:33We knew we wanted the big building
00:42:35and a permanent home,
00:42:37but we weren't ready
00:42:38and we didn't have the opportunity.
00:42:41People had heard about The Due Return
00:42:42and so there was reverberations out of Santa Fe,
00:42:45more interest in getting us to do other projects.
00:42:48We decided at that point
00:42:49because we have so many people
00:42:51that Meow Wolf could split up
00:42:54and do different shows at different times.
00:42:57There was, like, a million shows
00:42:59in all these different cities
00:43:00and little factions of Meow Wolf
00:43:02that were involved in them.
00:43:06I thought the future would be cooler.
00:43:10I thought the future would be cooler.
00:43:15I thought the brave world would be newer.
00:43:19I thought the future would be cooler.
00:43:23We went to Boulder, Colorado, Las Cruces, New Mexico, Chicago, New York twice.
00:43:34Matt and I went to Miami for probably the smallest male show ever.
00:43:39Each time we get invited to one of these places, us as a group get so excited.
00:43:44And we think this exposure is going to lead us to the next big thing.
00:43:48And we did it, and we did it, and we did it.
00:43:50And nothing ever happened. It never got us to the next level.
00:43:54The problem was that the art world was not capable of handling Meow Wolf as an artist.
00:44:02The art world usually spends some amount of money on one person to do a short install of work that
00:44:11can sell.
00:44:12And we were a bunch of people doing a long install of work that doesn't sell.
00:44:19This is, you know, Sklateropolis.
00:44:21I keep trying to make something that's as over-the-top, pretty-pretty as possible in order to, like, get
00:44:29over that impulse.
00:44:30I thought the future would be cool.
00:44:33I thought the future would be cool.
00:44:37I thought the rainbow would be new.
00:44:42I thought the future would be cool.
00:44:46With all the screws going to me.
00:44:52Attention customers, we have a special on Whale Song.
00:44:58Whale Song is a deodorant that came to me in a dream that I had.
00:45:07The scent is calling for peace.
00:45:15Whale Song deodorant, antiperspirant and antidepressant,
00:45:20is now on sale for $1.12 off.
00:45:23We did this for years and it got, you know, it got really tiring
00:45:28because we go to a city and there are ten of us living in one tiny little room,
00:45:33sleeping one after another because that's all we can afford
00:45:35because all the money is going to the art, there's not even much money for that.
00:45:38At some point you have to go like, well, you know, how long can I do this for?
00:45:42How long should I do this for? You know, everybody's got their limit.
00:45:46There's other things I want to do with my life, like I'm not going to have a family
00:45:49in this like destitute reality.
00:45:53We saw very clearly like why this wasn't going to work.
00:45:57You know, money wasted, projects that were total disasters, pending lawsuits.
00:46:03Meow Wolf was really feeling like this obligation that didn't have any path forward towards success.
00:46:10Nobody wanted to do anymore.
00:46:30We were not having meetings. Meow Wolf was kind of dissipating into different ideas,
00:46:36but David was always really just like, let's look for a building.
00:46:39Let's try to get a new thing.
00:46:40He was kind of like pushing it when everybody else was kind of flighty.
00:46:42He was really intense in that way.
00:46:45David put like so much energy into what he did.
00:46:48He had mood swings, intense kind of manic approach to things,
00:46:52but then he would get like really upset and be depressive.
00:46:54And that was like part of his bipolar.
00:47:00The swings were much larger than anybody else I've known personally who's had the disease.
00:47:07He was a very talented photographer and found an outlet,
00:47:11not only artistically, but with us as a group.
00:47:16David put together this show in the Meow Wolf warehouse.
00:47:20It was really quite something.
00:47:24He was going to present his photographs,
00:47:26but also share journal entries from a time that he spent in a psychiatric hospital.
00:47:32As these representations of his mental illness.
00:47:39When you came and saw the show,
00:47:41you were encouraged to pick up charcoal and markers
00:47:45and draw on the walls and sort of just how you felt.
00:47:48By the end of it, it was just this beautiful mess of scribbles.
00:47:55Sentences that didn't make sense next to crazy images of weird kind of like demented faces,
00:48:01cluttered with nonsense and insanity.
00:48:07He continued to have bouts with mania and depression.
00:48:11Sometimes he was down and you could see it immediately in his eyes.
00:48:16David actually lived with us for like six months.
00:48:22He was very dedicated to his friends and to Meow Wolf and to his family.
00:48:28And he was very, very unhappy.
00:48:32So you like wouldn't see him for a long time.
00:48:34You just like wouldn't come out of his house for a really long time.
00:48:37And the doctors didn't know what to do to get him out of this depression.
00:48:40They said, OK, last resort, we're going to do ECT, electroconvulsive therapy.
00:48:47And he was going in for two or three shocks a week.
00:48:52You have to deal with getting put under and then the grogginess of coming out of anesthesia.
00:48:57I saw over the course of a year this thing was working.
00:49:00It was defeating the depression.
00:49:03He was psyched. He was like, OK, we're going to do another big Meow Wolf show.
00:49:06And he even mentioned to me once, what if we got George R. R. Martin involved?
00:49:09Like, that would be crazy. We laughed about it.
00:49:12But he called me up like right before he went into a treatment.
00:49:15And he had been thinking about me and he like called me up and said hi.
00:49:19And I asked him how he was doing and he said he felt good.
00:49:22And he was feeling like these treatments were like really helping.
00:49:26There was a lot of hope and positivity in David's life and there hadn't been in several years.
00:49:32I saw him Thursday and he was not doing very well, but I didn't think anything of it.
00:49:37I was like, this is just a normal up and down for David.
00:49:40Friday, he goes in for literally his last ECT.
00:49:45He leaves and he feels really groggy and he just says like, OK, I just need to sleep this off.
00:49:51I got a call from his brother and his brother said, you know, I have something really, I have something
00:49:55bad to tell you.
00:49:57And David fell into a coma and I just like, I was like, what the fuck?
00:50:01I just started calling people and letting them know and it was just fucking devastating, man.
00:50:08When I got that call, it was really heavy. There's no way you could prepare for it.
00:50:12It was just like, let's drive, drive to Albuquerque and see him.
00:50:17It was really first time in a long time that most of the group was together again.
00:50:23Essentially, he had, he had had pneumonia and like nobody really knew because he was going through these like treatments
00:50:28and his body was like all messed up.
00:50:31His lungs filled with liquid, heart stopped, brain stopped getting blood.
00:50:41And, and then, and then died 24 hours later.
00:51:06The way that he went was very inexplicable and we all got a chance within a 24 hour window to
00:51:16say goodbye.
00:51:17I don't know why any of that happened the way that it did.
00:51:21I miss him every single day.
00:51:24He was not only an incredibly impassioned person. He was not only an incredibly caring person, but there was something
00:51:34to his character, a certain type of a, a, an empathy that I think only really comes from personal suffering.
00:51:41You know, you knew that every single thing that happened with David was completely genuine and I just wish he
00:51:49was here. I really do. I really, really wish he was here.
00:51:56I try to think about him as a sense of strength as somebody who's still present with us.
00:52:04But the weird thing about his death is that it definitely brought us all together in a time when we
00:52:08were like totally dispersed.
00:52:11Everybody came to my house every day, all day for a week.
00:52:15We just felt this like extreme sense of loss and like needed each other to help us get through that.
00:52:21You never thought all of these people are going to become our family.
00:52:26Ultimately, it brought the family together and, and made it stronger.
00:52:31There are plenty of people in this group that can be pretty hard to be around sometimes, but that's why
00:52:39it's more like family than friends, because it doesn't matter.
00:52:43You make it work anyway. You don't walk away from them.
00:52:57There was like this space for us to mutually understand each other and feel sympathy, love, compassion for each other,
00:53:11reminding ourselves why we started this.
00:53:14What's what's actually magical about this collective.
00:53:27And there's probably some element of it that was like, holy shit, that can happen.
00:53:32Like, let's not fuck around. Let's get over our shit.
00:53:35There just felt like there was just like this rejuvenation of wanting to do a big show together.
00:53:41In honor of David, in honor of his wanting the group to get together.
00:53:46Thinking about that as like Meow Wolf rebirth and not knowing what that looked like.
00:53:56Several of us were thinking about how can we make Meow Wolf sustainable.
00:54:01We need a building. We need like probably millions of dollars. Like, where are we going to get that?
00:54:08There's seemingly insurmountable odds against us, but let's just pretend like it's actually going to happen. Let's start designing the
00:54:15project.
00:54:15Dream of a dream. Dream of a dream.
00:54:21We were throwing out concepts, you know, writing stuff down on post-it notes and putting them on the wall.
00:54:26The idea came into my head about the house that you enter and their secret passageways that lead into other
00:54:31dimensions.
00:54:32Here is a house and an event has happened that has broken time and space to the extent that portals
00:54:39have opened up throughout the house, which will now lead to these fantastic environments.
00:54:45Everybody just went completely nuts with concepts like, this what? This what? Oh, it's got to be a laundry room.
00:54:49It's got to be, okay, so a laundry room jungle that has fish in it with gelatin like pouring out
00:54:55of this thing and with like ants, but there's ants like tunneling inside.
00:54:58Like, it was just so nuts. Like, it seems really insane. But like, if this happens, it could be one
00:55:03of the most crazy things that like anybody's seen.
00:55:06Dream of a dream. Dream of a dream.
00:55:12I had looked at the bowling alley and I was like, holy fuck, this building is huge. 33,000 square
00:55:17feet and it was just like, oh my God.
00:55:19And I had all these memories of the bowling alley growing up here, just like going to birthday parties and
00:55:24getting grilled cheese sandwiches and bowling.
00:55:27It was for sale and we needed someone to buy it for us.
00:55:32So what we did is we made a list of everyone that we knew that we thought would have enough
00:55:37money and be interested.
00:55:38And Vince like threw out George R.R. Martin.
00:55:41Oh, dream baby, dream baby, dream baby, dream baby.
00:55:44George lived in Santa Fe and happened to like meet Vince once.
00:55:48Most of us are huge Game of Thrones fans, so the idea of the person that we are closest to
00:55:55that could really buy this building for us being George Martin was really silly.
00:56:00It was all joking, at least I thought, but Vince was actually really pushing for it.
00:56:04And yeah, there are huge question marks for this project and we're trying to bring something that is like an
00:56:09impossibility to make it possible.
00:56:13And we just need to believe and we need to like work as if we can do it and figure
00:56:18it out as we go along and not get paralyzed by doubt.
00:56:23My life is either going down this track or I'm like moving to another city and I'm starting a new
00:56:28life somewhere.
00:56:29It's on me to get this done.
00:56:32Vince called me up and, you know, said, do you want to purchase a bowling alley?
00:56:38And I said, no, not particularly.
00:56:41I don't, I mean, I bowled a few times, but it's not a particular passion of mine.
00:56:48And then he told me a little of what he had in mind and invited me to come down and
00:56:52see it.
00:56:52If you want to go and see the show, you just walk right up this way.
00:56:57There's some hints that something's happened here, something unusual, some break in time.
00:57:06The Victorian house, lost in time and space, other dimensions, other times, a secret story that you would have to
00:57:12decipher.
00:57:13He was just pushing on my buttons there.
00:57:15He probably knew they were my buttons because I'm a science fiction fantasy guy.
00:57:19And he's like, well, how much is it going to take to renovate the building?
00:57:23And we're like, it's going to be like $300,000, man, like no big deal.
00:57:27And I said, where, where did you get that figure?
00:57:30A couple of weeks later, his contractor comes back with a number that's like 1.8 million to renovate.
00:57:36And we had to go back to George.
00:57:38And he's like, what's this? This is, this is, is this the number down here?
00:57:43And we're like, yeah, the number is $1.8 million.
00:57:46And he just like sits there quietly.
00:57:49It was a desperate plea.
00:57:51It was like, please take a chance on us, you know, like nobody else is going to.
00:57:58He convinced me, okay, I'll, I'll buy the bowling alley.
00:58:02God help me.
00:58:04It was December 23rd and we're supposed to close the, on the building on January 6th.
00:58:11And there was a really terrible moment.
00:58:13Actually, George really wanted to have $140,000 backing the lease.
00:58:20And we were like, we're screwed.
00:58:21I didn't know where, I didn't know where to go.
00:58:22I didn't know where to turn to.
00:58:24I had to call David's parents at like 10 o'clock at night, two days before Christmas, a year after
00:58:33David had died.
00:58:36Meow Wolf was very important to David.
00:58:43They're a big part of our lives, a big part of our heart.
00:58:48He wanted so much for Meow Wolf to become very, very big.
00:58:52And I think he would have been so excited.
00:58:55So Bruce said, yes.
00:58:56That was huge.
00:58:58That was like, okay, this is a go.
00:59:11It's a pretty astonishing space.
00:59:15And I could see all sorts of possibilities here.
00:59:18Something magical, something the city has never seen before.
00:59:22We're naming the show House of Eternal Return.
00:59:25Listening to them describe their vision of what it would be, it seemed unreal, really, quite honestly.
00:59:31There would be this immersive experience where people of all ages could walk in,
00:59:37have an intimate relationship with the art that was around them.
00:59:41Here you are, you walk in, you are an intergalactic travel agency.
00:59:47Yeah, dimensional.
00:59:48Interdimensional, intergalactic.
00:59:50Travel agency.
00:59:50Anything you can think of.
00:59:52A lot of us were able to quit our other jobs and just do this full-time for the first
00:59:59time ever in our lives.
01:00:08So, hey everybody, it's time to start!
01:00:10Start one!
01:00:11Start one!
01:00:12Start one!
01:00:13First Falling LA Media!
01:00:20Trying to conceptualize something being permanent is so much different.
01:00:24Everything we've done up to that point gets torn down.
01:00:27The group had made large-scale, immersive, semi-permanent installations before.
01:00:33They had not done it to code.
01:00:35They had not done it with inspections and permitting.
01:00:45The whole process really started way before we actually got into the space.
01:00:49And it started with the architecture process.
01:00:52How you describe this thing that we're building.
01:00:54We're not building a house, but we're building a house.
01:00:57You can go through that fireplace.
01:00:58And then there's caves.
01:01:02We were suddenly, like, engaged in a project of massive scale.
01:01:06A ton of infrastructure.
01:01:07All right, so we're gonna start by doing, like, a big loop of the building and talking about all the
01:01:12different spaces.
01:01:13It was scary, too, because we were all amateurs, and we didn't really know what we were doing.
01:01:17Um, it's a construction site, obviously.
01:01:20Up on the ground, there's, like, it's dangerous, just be careful.
01:01:24The entirety of figuring out the House of Eternal Return, the business structure, the layout, the building code, and fire
01:01:33retardant,
01:01:34and, like, all of the many, many, many pieces has just been a constant, all-day, every-day exercise in
01:01:41rolling with it.
01:01:44There is no one answer.
01:01:45How do I make a massive, immersive tech layer for this already insane exhibit?
01:01:52I wonder if it happened when we were, like, the very first time we caught this.
01:01:56So many levels of just, like, every single Meow Wolf are working on, like, multi-projects
01:02:01and getting good at what you needed to get good at or at least, like, learning it
01:02:05or finding people who were really good at it and comboing that.
01:02:08That was, like, the hyper web.
01:02:11All right!
01:02:13This will be totally walkable, explorable.
01:02:16There's absolutely no reason to make something like this.
01:02:19But for some reason, everybody is psyched about making things just like this.
01:02:23This stuff is, like, four inches thick, which is great.
01:02:26It came from the, uh, the walk-in freezer, uh, here, when it was still a bowling alley.
01:02:36So when you enter into the house, you are basically in what appears to be a normal house
01:02:42that's inhabited by a real family that's lived here for generations.
01:02:46It's a house in Mendocino, California, but something has happened there.
01:02:51Something is not quite normal about this house.
01:02:54The shockwave that happened sort of shot up through the roof, and it has rippled the floor.
01:03:01And there'll be a video playing through the toilet.
01:03:05The story is based around the Selig family, who are a family of supernatural artists, musicians, and inventors.
01:03:12They are so creatively powerful that their abilities actually break time and space, which creates the exhibition.
01:03:20And that exhibition is a manifestation of the family's thoughts and memories and dreams.
01:03:28Everything that exists in the exhibit relates to our storyline that we have in this house.
01:03:33There's so much detail in the narrative. Like, they all have, you know, collected photos, and we have family portraits
01:03:40and journals.
01:03:42You'll never know everything that's happened in their life, but there is this underlying story.
01:03:46And then you're back in, like, kind of the normal world.
01:03:51But not really.
01:03:59There's some dolls that go pshh, pshh, pshh, pshh.
01:04:16You're never gonna make it.
01:04:17No, I didn't. I got out of the makerspace. I'm in here.
01:04:19Yeah? Yeah.
01:04:20I was super fucking stressed out.
01:04:23And probably scared a lot of people, because I had a terrible frown on my face, like, the whole time.
01:04:27Him and I got in just throw-down screaming matches, where I almost had to punch little Sean.
01:04:37I got a finger for all of you.
01:04:41I was just the guy who went around and said, no, you can't do that, because then we have to
01:04:45put a sprinkler in it,
01:04:45and that's gonna cost us $500, and we just don't have it.
01:04:49I don't need a helmet. We got our CO. This beer is a soda.
01:04:52Yeah.
01:04:53You can use all of this in the documentary.
01:04:55There's no documentary.
01:04:56Yeah, right.
01:04:57That's, like, the order and chaos combo, where it's, like, having to be, like, passionate but responsible about both of
01:05:02those things,
01:05:02I think it could totally drive people insane.
01:05:06Our entire approach to the electrical system was fundamentally flawed.
01:05:10We're planning on using all these extension cords.
01:05:12Shit, that doesn't work.
01:05:14Do you guys have any idea when the power will come back on?
01:05:17No word.
01:05:18I think Sean is the only one.
01:05:19Sean is the only one.
01:05:21You hit the kill switch now.
01:05:23Let's just turn this big mistake off, you guys.
01:05:26We had to completely re-engineer all of the power distribution in the show, which meant adding another $20,000
01:05:34to the budget,
01:05:35and bringing in an electrical engineer, and then adding another $20,000 to the budget, and bringing in electrical contractors.
01:05:41And these were, like, really last-minute changes to a plan that we kind of barely understood.
01:05:54We just kept going up and up, and, you know, there were a couple points I was saying,
01:05:59we can't, you know, guys, stop it.
01:06:04Is the whole project gonna fail now?
01:06:07Because we can't raise another $20,000.
01:06:10And it was, like, $20,000 after $20,000.
01:06:12We were going, like, way over budget, and the opening kept getting pushed further into the future.
01:06:17Every time the construction costs went up, Vince had to go out and fundraise more.
01:06:21He had to go out there and present confidence.
01:06:23This matters.
01:06:24Uh, yeah, so this is the Meow Wolf Art Complex.
01:06:27And, uh, it's a 33,000-square-foot building.
01:06:30It's 2.7 acres.
01:06:31I mean, there was times where it's two days before payday, and there's zero money in the bank.
01:06:35And so I have the rest of Friday, and I have Monday to come up with $90,000.
01:06:45Or else we have to tell the entire team that payroll's not coming this time around.
01:06:51To have the incredible stress of responsibility for everyone's job, it was very hard.
01:07:15We had about 400 people working on the House of Eternal Return.
01:07:20Volunteers and contractors and artists.
01:07:23We thought we could build everything for $800,000.
01:07:27We came up to an end result of $2.7 million.
01:07:31And Vince raised all of that money single-handedly.
01:07:34You get to go steal a hand.
01:07:37You get to, you get to go steal a hand.
01:07:41At some point we had to put a deadline on it.
01:07:43It was just gonna keep on going.
01:07:44And so we decided March 17th, that's the day we're opening, and there's no question about it.
01:07:49It's like this looming, this looming presence like, oh yeah, this shit has to get done.
01:07:54You're not gonna stop.
01:07:56You're not gonna stop doing it.
01:07:58You have to kind of figure out how to keep doing it.
01:08:00You get to go steal a hand.
01:08:03You get to, you get to go steal a hand.
01:08:08At this point, it's been a year and a half of six or seven day weeks.
01:08:13And those days are never less than 10 hours.
01:08:16Usually in this final stretch, like 14, 16 hours.
01:08:20Oh, it's cut down here now.
01:08:22Oh God, please work.
01:08:26We got some two weeks left.
01:08:29When I hold up my arms like that, I want you guys to say two weeks.
01:08:33Two weeks.
01:08:34Two weeks.
01:08:34Of mad gas plashing.
01:08:36Two weeks.
01:08:37Of mad gas crashing.
01:08:38Two weeks.
01:08:43I've gone through a bunch of different levels of burnout.
01:08:47Kind of like Dante's levels of hell sort of thing.
01:08:50Like every show, we are still working up until we open.
01:08:57It's just full of things that drive me crazy that I want to fix.
01:09:03And it's like not done.
01:09:04There's some shit going on in there that doesn't seem like it was part of the plan.
01:09:12Nobody's seen the show.
01:09:13Because there's ladders everywhere, there's scissor lifts.
01:09:16I haven't slept in 36 hours.
01:09:18I haven't thought at all about operating the thing.
01:09:21What are we gonna do tomorrow when the public comes in?
01:09:29Opening night was totally in the hands of fate.
01:09:33There's no backup plan anymore.
01:09:36It was terrifying and exciting all at the same time.
01:09:39I run home and change.
01:09:41I am exhausted.
01:09:43I come back.
01:09:44My mom's talking to George Martin on the couch and I'm like,
01:09:46Mom, why are you talking to George?
01:09:47Leave him alone.
01:09:52It's incredible.
01:09:53Meow Wolf gang have done something.
01:09:56I think they should be very proud of.
01:09:57Something truly unique.
01:10:00Nah think that's really great.
01:10:02Right in the middle of the palace.
01:10:0519
01:10:05Maybe
01:10:05Maybe
01:10:05It's bad
01:10:29Maybe
01:10:29Maybe
01:10:29Maybe
01:10:29Maybe
01:10:29It's不
01:10:30Nice
01:10:30Maybe
01:10:30Maybe
01:10:43people are just like funneling in and i remember just like seeing sean in the front yard of the
01:10:51house and he runs up to me and like i was like i was like is it working you know
01:10:56is it is it
01:10:57working and he's like i think it's working
01:11:09people started coming and then more people started coming and then more people started
01:11:12coming and we were like oh my god
01:11:37god david would have loved this it was very emotional for us we just kind of stood there
01:11:44in awe because we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into or what we were going to see
01:11:50next
01:11:50we've like devoted the learning center to his name just to walk in to see his name is um it
01:11:58just
01:11:58takes me back every time we help fulfill something that he helps that emotion
01:12:07i don't know it's just you don't ever expect
01:12:11things to actually work you like really really really hold out for the hope that like it's all
01:12:18going to work out
01:12:40don't slow down
01:12:51felt like a cosmic joke we're looking at the numbers after a few weeks we're like
01:12:55we've got 550 000 we're just like laughing like what like how is this possible
01:13:01iron and money
01:13:03don't slow down
01:13:06don't slow down
01:13:07and birth is pencil
01:13:09don't slow down
01:13:10i don't make the rules
01:13:13don't slow down
01:13:14is it co-mental
01:13:15don't slow down
01:13:18don't slow down
01:13:22don't slow down
01:13:28don't slow down
01:13:31don't slow down
01:13:35don't slow down
01:13:38don't slow down
01:13:41don't slow down
01:13:42don't slow down
01:13:43don't slow down
01:13:45don't slow down
01:13:49don't slow down
01:13:54don't slow down
01:13:59don't slow down
01:14:00don't slow down
01:14:00don't slow down
01:14:00don't slow down
01:14:00don't slow down
01:14:03I love, I'd just like to have to say, I love what Meowth is doing, you guys have vision,
01:14:09okay?
01:14:09And I love what you're doing with SRA Outreach, okay?
01:14:13It's like, wow, you guys, Meowth has so much potential.
01:14:34Right now, after having been open for a year, it's like still putting myself in positions
01:14:40of the unknown and putting myself in positions of like, holy fuck, is this going to work?
01:14:45But now it's just on a whole other scale.
01:14:47Thinking about Austin and thinking about Denver and thinking about these, you know,
01:14:5275 people we have on salary and the money that's just like going out towards creatives
01:14:58and like trying to fundraise sort of in the same position of like, is this going to work?
01:15:04Selfish move is to just like operate the house in Santa Fe, make a couple million dollars
01:15:09of profit every year, but there's other artists in the world, there's other communities in the world
01:15:14that could be transformed by this opportunity.
01:15:26We're going to look at a site in Denver for potentially for a new Meow Wolf.
01:15:30Does that make any sense?
01:15:32I don't think anything I just said made any sense at all.
01:15:34Pretty much a sentence.
01:15:35Yeah.
01:15:35Yeah.
01:15:36For a potential new Meow Wolf.
01:15:39How do you say Meow Wolf?
01:15:40Meow Wolf?
01:15:42Meow Wolf.
01:15:42Meow Wolf.
01:15:47Meow Wolf.
01:15:48I've been in Austin and Denver over the last like six months looking at real estate.
01:15:52It's a really weird thing because like suddenly we're like looking at real estate a lot.
01:15:58It's not anything I ever expected to be doing in my life.
01:16:10So the front entrance to Meow Wolf would be right here.
01:16:14And you have this like really cool sort of like industrial entry.
01:16:21We could do like a really cool facade on this.
01:16:26So not only are we creating exhibits that are two or three times the size of what Meow Wolf is
01:16:30currently,
01:16:31but we're on the brink of doing two of them.
01:16:34And so that's a huge question.
01:16:36Do we have the capacity?
01:16:37Are we biting off more than we can chew?
01:16:38It's daunting.
01:16:40We're climbing a mountain that's like four times the size of the one that we just climbed.
01:16:45And the one that we just climbed nearly killed us.
01:16:54There's some people like Vince who's just this classic like pusher archetype.
01:17:00He's always going to be going a hundred miles per hour faster than everybody else.
01:17:04The rest of us are in some way kind of tempering that and trying to bring it back to like
01:17:08a pace that's comfortable to us.
01:17:17The pace at which we are all morphing into these other people who can do all these things and can
01:17:26like run things is hard to comprehend.
01:17:41Do you guys want to go over there and like get in a circle?
01:17:46Check it out.
01:17:47It's Queen Ginger from the old and Meow Wolf days.
01:17:49It feels like it's cool.
01:17:54So it's like the old and new together perfectly creating a hyper event horizon.
01:18:00I got a note from Matt online on Facebook that said he wanted to talk.
01:18:05I just felt like I needed to reach out and try and bring him back in in the spirit and
01:18:12the ethos of Meow Wolf.
01:18:13I literally hadn't seen him in years.
01:18:16So I brought him over here to Caterpillar and walked him around and...
01:18:22And if you want, you could have a job I guess.
01:18:28Totally downplayed it.
01:18:30As heartbroken as I am to have missed the last seven years, I'm so enamored with this now.
01:18:36It all worked out right.
01:18:44Can you guess what I might ask about this entryway?
01:18:48Is it about head height?
01:18:48Yeah.
01:18:49Yeah.
01:18:50Well, I can tell you it's not getting any taller.
01:18:55Do you want to put a noodle on that?
01:18:56Oh, we're going to noodle it.
01:18:57We're going to noodle so hard.
01:19:00Is it going to rain on these a lot?
01:19:04It's...
01:19:06In this part of Oregon during this time of the year, supposedly it does not rain at all.
01:19:12But the roof looks pretty cool.
01:19:14Yeah.
01:19:15How are people going to see that?
01:19:17Tell him to put a hard hat on.
01:19:19I'm scared about the skateboards.
01:19:23Penji, drop everything and give me a high five.
01:19:26Yeah!
01:19:28I'm spending all this time putting in place all these structures and processes and...
01:19:33And also dealing with, like, insurance and, like, safety.
01:19:37All these bureaucratic things.
01:19:39And if we don't do them right, I could lose, like, the most valuable thing we have, which is our
01:19:44culture.
01:19:46Is this what I want to be doing?
01:19:48Like, I have to say yes to that because there's something that put me here.
01:19:52There's something that I'm doing that's, like, that I'm choosing.
01:19:56At the same time, there's, like, somewhat of a conflict, right?
01:20:00And, like, I want to make art.
01:20:02Like, that's why I got involved.
01:20:04Am I the greatest threat to Meow Wolf culture?
01:20:06I think it's just partly my role.
01:20:09And it freaks me out.
01:20:11Can I give you a high five?
01:20:13Hey.
01:20:14Good to see you.
01:20:15Good to see you, too.
01:20:15Good to see you.
01:20:17Finding one mask.
01:20:20Ah!
01:20:2120 and gross.
01:20:23Well, we're gonna have a gang office.
01:20:24Yeah.
01:20:26Give me this.
01:20:27I'm constantly trying to drill down why do I want to do this?
01:20:32Why am I putting myself through all this crazy stress?
01:20:35I really do love getting to see people's reactions to the exhibition.
01:20:39And they're like, wow, not only is this crazy, but it's possible.
01:20:44I can go out there in the world and build whatever I dream and whatever I want to manifest.
01:20:52Hey, conehead!
01:20:54You know what?
01:20:55You owe plots with some cash!
01:20:57And cut!
01:20:59This is where all the junk is that needs to be gone through.
01:21:06Ooh!
01:21:08That's a good one.
01:21:09Oh, my God.
01:21:11Memory!
01:21:13This is all Katie's stuff.
01:21:15It's not all mine.
01:21:16No?
01:21:17I don't know.
01:21:18This little turtle.
01:21:20Wow, that's a...
01:21:21That is a Polaroid of the first male show in the middle of it.
01:21:27Curlers!
01:21:28Curlers.
01:21:29Curlers!
01:21:29We collected...
01:21:30Look how beautiful they are!
01:21:31I mean, really what we have done for a lifetime is collect fun, colorful things to make weird abstract installations
01:21:38from.
01:21:38The current exhibit, we can't really use stuff like this anymore because of all of the hands-on stuff.
01:21:43But for years we got to have fun, um...
01:21:47Not anymore.
01:21:48Not anymore.
01:21:49This was from the due return inside of the little treasure room.
01:21:53It's important that things remain a collective process.
01:21:55It's important that our curatorial process is authentic and true to us.
01:22:03It's important that we keep making things that are weird.
01:22:08People like to minimize what we do as entertainment or as big fun art.
01:22:15The art world is important to what we do.
01:22:19We're not separated from it.
01:22:21We're just sitting on the edge of that seat.
01:22:23Does everyone have as much trash as we do?
01:22:26No.
01:22:31Where I imagine all this going, I haven't really told it to any of the other members of Meow Wolf.
01:22:37Because it's kind of a scary thing.
01:22:38It goes back to the whole like corporate capitalism is a bad thing and so I'm nervous about bringing it
01:22:44up.
01:22:44But my goal now is to create a billion dollar company.
01:22:49Because like a 50 million dollar company is where we're at.
01:22:53Which unit is this?
01:22:55200 million is totally achievable.
01:22:58And so is 500 million.
01:23:00So like I'm just like fuck it.
01:23:02Let's create a billion dollar company.
01:23:10Can we make a billion dollar company that's producing a insanely wide range of aesthetic material?
01:23:22And can it be dynamic and textured and unexpected?
01:23:31That would be the dark dystopia fear that I'd have is that it just becomes this like really grim business
01:23:37only.
01:23:39Corrupt, just heartless, churning out factory style Meow Wolf things.
01:23:47We're gonna hire like 300 people in the next five years.
01:23:51We're not just artists anymore.
01:23:53There's some aspect of this that is like about production.
01:23:57It's about repeating this business model.
01:24:00It's also really easy to lose what makes you actually interesting when you're going for a broader market.
01:24:08When you're going for bigger business.
01:24:12We see it growing really faster than we can even keep up with.
01:24:15We don't want to become a Disney, you know?
01:24:22We have to constantly be thinking, how do we keep this radical?
01:24:26That's part of what compels me is that we got to make it better.
01:24:30We're gonna sign the lease here pretty soon.
01:24:32Here goes Nathan.
01:24:34We have to support those who feel like they're on the outside looking in because that's how we were.
01:24:39That's the point of all of this.
01:24:40And to me, that's where this is like either a success or a failure.
01:24:45Woo-hoo!
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