- 2 days ago
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00:00:46It started for me a year ago when I moved to Mexico City for work.
00:00:52You told me you'd lived there your whole life.
00:00:56We'd been chatting on a dating application and had agreed to meet a few days later at an art opening.
00:01:03I'd already been thinking about sleeping with you.
00:01:07I googled you, and I found out you were born 30 years before me.
00:01:13I'd had fantasies about older men since I was a teenager.
00:01:17And now, far from home, I decided I was finally ready to let myself fall in love with one.
00:01:27It took me a moment to find you, even though you're tall.
00:01:32We kissed outside the gallery.
00:01:34It was awkward that first time.
00:01:36I'd had to stand on my tiptoes.
00:01:40I touched your chest, and you invited me to your place.
00:01:50Your touch was electric.
00:01:52Your hands on my back, neck, thighs, ass.
00:01:56My lips around your tongue.
00:01:58My fingers in your soft, thick hair.
00:02:01Your eyes locked on mine.
00:02:05The whole night, under me, around me, inside me.
00:02:14You disappeared, and came back a few minutes later to slip a piece of cheese into my eager mouth.
00:02:26A few weeks later, I stopped paying rent at my apartment, and I moved in with you.
00:02:33One morning, I was brushing my teeth when you pointed out the hair I have on my upper arms.
00:02:40I started shaving them.
00:02:43You told me to start exercising, since I'd only be this age once.
00:02:49I wondered which birthday would be the one where you'd decide that I'd gotten too old for you.
00:02:58Now it's summer.
00:03:00You're traveling, and so am I.
00:03:04You made no promises about seeing me again.
00:03:08But I can't stop thinking about you.
00:03:14Once I got to Chicago, I started thinking about a film.
00:03:19I wrote an announcement on my dating profile, inviting men to an audition.
00:03:25Come to my studio and be on camera for a half hour.
00:03:29You'll receive something in exchange.
00:03:32It could be sex, or something else.
00:03:38The guys who came in have agreed to act in a film with me.
00:03:42They don't know what it'll be about.
00:03:46And neither do I.
00:03:50Maybe I'm making it in spite of you.
00:03:55Or maybe it's for you.
00:04:00Maybe it's for you.
00:04:08So what specifically is this for?
00:04:12Well, I'm a filmmaker.
00:04:16So there's no specific purpose.
00:04:19It's just I make films.
00:04:21And I'm interested.
00:04:23I'll talk in a second.
00:04:24I'm just going to have to concentrate.
00:04:26I'm just going to frame this.
00:04:31Okay.
00:04:34Looks good.
00:04:35Great.
00:04:37And I'm going to check on this one.
00:04:40I'm going to shift this over a little bit.
00:04:43Okay.
00:04:45Let's see.
00:04:46Let's solve this as we could.
00:04:53Well, welcome.
00:04:55Thanks for coming in.
00:04:58So, let's see.
00:04:59Well, in terms of Grindr, I've been on Grindr for a while.
00:05:02I and my husband have been on Grindr, surprisingly.
00:05:07Because it's not really where you, you know, you see.
00:05:10And it's changed over the years.
00:05:11We see a lot more people on there looking for a relationship.
00:05:15I'm like, dude, it's Grindr.
00:05:17But, you know, but it can happen.
00:05:19But that wasn't the purpose.
00:05:22And recently, I've shifted.
00:05:24I've gotten a little older.
00:05:26My libido is not what it used to be.
00:05:28So, I'm not really horny all the time like I was at your age when we didn't have Grindr.
00:05:35So, I actually am interested in meeting people.
00:05:40Sort of just to talk with them and meet new people.
00:05:43We've lost that kind of, like, the art of the cruise.
00:05:46It's like walking around.
00:05:47I'm a guy.
00:05:49Brushing up against him, you know, in a discreet or not so discreet kind of way.
00:05:54We don't do that because we've got these apps.
00:05:57I don't know if you know Jackhammer.
00:05:58I don't.
00:06:00It's a bar, like, just a bar.
00:06:04Jackhammer has a basement.
00:06:06They call it the hole.
00:06:08Of course.
00:06:09And it's pretty raunchy.
00:06:11I mean, it's exactly what you'd expect.
00:06:13But those are things that I had never experienced and kind of had always been a little wary of.
00:06:20So, a friend of mine was just like, we've got to go.
00:06:26And had that friend been to those kinds of places?
00:06:28Oh, yeah.
00:06:29Oh, yeah.
00:06:29That's, like, his thing.
00:06:32But it's interesting to see, like, just kind of demeanors and, like, seeing people change,
00:06:41like, as they come down through a room and strip, you know, like, seeing how people kind
00:06:49of come alive in those situations.
00:06:52Did you want to do this interview in acting?
00:06:55No.
00:06:58I'm really, like, I'm...
00:07:01I mean, if you want to, we can.
00:07:03Just hang out and talk.
00:07:05That's all up to you.
00:07:06I mean, if you want to, I'm more than, like, I'm comfortable doing it.
00:07:10Yeah.
00:07:11Let's go for it.
00:07:11Okay.
00:07:12All right.
00:07:26Now we're naked.
00:07:27Now we're naked.
00:07:28Have you ever done these like this before?
00:07:30Nope.
00:07:31You were the...
00:07:32I did two on Tuesday, and I've done three so far today.
00:07:38And I've got one afterwards.
00:07:40And we've been in clothes for each of them.
00:07:44Is it awkward for you to be naked?
00:07:48No.
00:07:49I mean, there's definitely, like, a tension right now that is different than...
00:07:52and the tension with the other ones.
00:07:54Like, what kind of tension do you think there's?
00:07:59Sorry, I keep staring.
00:08:02It's almost like I want to touch it.
00:08:05Just kind of like, yeah, I don't know how I'm going to take that if I'm like, can I touch
00:08:08it?
00:08:12That's all up to you.
00:08:14I think I'd feel uncomfortable.
00:08:19But, yeah.
00:08:21Are you from Chicago?
00:08:22I know.
00:08:22I'm originally from Alabama.
00:08:24What part of Alabama?
00:08:25Small little town in the southeast corner.
00:08:28That's a part of Alabama I do not know.
00:08:29I grew up in Atlanta.
00:08:30Oh, okay.
00:08:31It's like a 15-hour drive.
00:08:33I do that if I take the dog.
00:08:35You have a dog?
00:08:35Mm-hmm.
00:08:36What kind of dog do you have?
00:08:36You can at least boil a Boston Terrier mix.
00:08:39Whoa.
00:08:39That sounds great.
00:08:40Yeah.
00:08:41I love dogs.
00:08:41Oh, he's a big goofball.
00:08:43What's his name?
00:08:44Fat boy.
00:08:45And he's still got his tail so it's out there and wags.
00:08:47Oh, he's got like a full tail?
00:08:48Yeah.
00:08:48Oh, that's nice.
00:08:49Yeah.
00:08:50Let him keep his tail.
00:08:51That's why I haven't even neutered him.
00:08:52He's five and a half.
00:08:54Okay.
00:08:55Does that cause any problems?
00:08:56Really?
00:08:57He's a little bit more aggressive than normal.
00:08:59Okay.
00:09:00Nah.
00:09:03What part of town do you live in?
00:09:05Rogers Park.
00:09:06Okay.
00:09:07Where are you?
00:09:08In the West Loop.
00:09:09It's like a 20-minute walk.
00:09:11I just have a sublet, like a small sublet that's close, not far.
00:09:15Right.
00:09:17So...
00:09:19Well, you don't have to get dressed again,
00:09:22but you might feel a little bit uncomfortable going out.
00:09:25Yeah.
00:09:25I've got an hour long.
00:09:27Yeah.
00:09:29All right.
00:09:38I've got someone coming in at nine.
00:09:51Could I have you sit right here?
00:09:53Uh-huh.
00:09:53Um, and you're taller than the last guy came in,
00:09:57so I'm going to see.
00:09:59Actually, no, that actually works.
00:10:02Yeah.
00:10:03Six-four.
00:10:07Yeah, that works.
00:10:08Okay.
00:10:17Do you have anything you're itching to ask, itching to say?
00:10:21You don't necessarily have to say anything.
00:10:24You should be able to, like...
00:10:25Well, that's why we have the hanky code in the leather community.
00:10:27Oh, I'm not familiar with this.
00:10:29Okay.
00:10:29That's like a whole other conversation,
00:10:30but I can totally teach you all about the hanky code, too.
00:10:33Apparently, there's like a big leather convention in Chicago.
00:10:35Yeah, you missed it.
00:10:36It was IML.
00:10:37Okay.
00:10:37I stayed with four of the pups, which are men who wear dog masks with tails.
00:10:42Usually that's dildos and tails.
00:10:43Okay.
00:10:44So it's a dildo that gets a tail, and they kind of walk around on chains often.
00:10:47Do they speak if they're pups?
00:10:49The pups, yes and no.
00:10:50I mean, they roof a lot.
00:10:52Okay.
00:10:52Someone asked me, like, how could you ever be a pup?
00:10:55I said, well, like, I'm not a pup, but, like, the idea that you maybe would never have to
00:11:00make a decision for yourself is maybe sort of refreshing.
00:11:05Yeah, like, you'd never have to make a decision.
00:11:08Like, I need to go pee.
00:11:10Okay, go pee.
00:11:11Or, like, I'm hungry.
00:11:12Okay, there's food.
00:11:13Like, everything is done for you, you know?
00:11:17And it's like, that's sort of, like, euphoric and sounds like really like,
00:11:20oh, you're just a lazy bastard.
00:11:21But, no, like, think about that.
00:11:23You're taking care of it.
00:11:23You know what I mean?
00:11:24Like, you're taking care of it.
00:11:25Yeah, I can see that.
00:11:26It's sort of amazing.
00:11:29For the longest, I've been into scruffy white guys.
00:11:32So, you know, my scruff is just my scruff.
00:11:34It always, it has, like, a really adorable sort of, like, SAI student getting his MFA,
00:11:41just moved here, be different than the guy beside you, I'm cerebral and smiley,
00:11:45like all of these things, right?
00:11:47But, you know, I have, like, a shirtless photo with a really goofy-ass hat on,
00:11:51and, like, I have my thumbs up, and, like, it's great.
00:11:54But, like, it didn't stop statements, like, come rape me,
00:11:58or I'd like you to come over, but you might scare the kids,
00:12:03or, like, give me that nigga dick now from white people.
00:12:07And so, like, I had changed my profile for a while to say something like,
00:12:10hey, white men, please stop asking me to rape you and stop offering money to sleep with you.
00:12:13And the comments stopped.
00:12:16People are like, oh, yeah, I know it's bad.
00:12:18And then they, like, they see it, and they're like, oh, it's horrible, right?
00:12:21But then what do you do?
00:12:22I mean, as an artist, I can't, I really can't just be like, okay, they said this to me.
00:12:26I'm going to blow them up and put them in a gallery.
00:12:27Like, you have to make work about it.
00:12:29And you still have to fix it for yourself, too.
00:12:31Like, there's ways, I think, as an artist, you have to sort of, like, come to a space
00:12:34where you can make work about something so tense to you.
00:12:37I would like to make a film based on this conversation.
00:12:44It's a fiction that I'll write based on a transcript.
00:12:48And I'll contact you soon about when to shoot that if you're willing to participate.
00:12:53You don't have to.
00:12:54Sure.
00:12:55Okay.
00:12:56All right.
00:12:57You're welcome.
00:13:01Oh, I don't know how to turn this now.
00:13:04Man, I wish I knew how to use this.
00:13:07Right here.
00:13:08So, I just stopped recording, and then to turn it off, it's...
00:13:11Do you care about learning, or...?
00:13:13No, teach.
00:13:14So, it's this toggle, and you just switch it to the middle.
00:13:17I think you should have fun with this project.
00:13:20Don't try to define it.
00:13:21Let it define yourself.
00:13:22Don't let it define itself?
00:13:24No, let it define itself.
00:13:25Oh, okay.
00:13:25Don't try to define it.
00:13:28Okay.
00:14:02Could you put that, I guess, just like on the inside, like right here?
00:14:05Um, and just string it through wherever it's like convenient for you.
00:14:08Yeah.
00:14:09When was the last time you came?
00:14:11This morning.
00:14:15You want me to come?
00:14:19If that happens, it would be worth it to stay together.
00:14:23Is that the line?
00:14:24Okay.
00:14:24If that happens, it's worth it to stay together.
00:14:26Okay.
00:14:27All right.
00:14:29One more time?
00:14:35Do you want closer than that?
00:14:36Let's do one like that.
00:14:39Do you want me to move up and down as well?
00:14:42No.
00:14:42No.
00:14:43Just faces?
00:14:43Yep.
00:14:44Okay.
00:14:45Okay.
00:15:02What's the last time you came?
00:15:08I think Saturday.
00:15:11It's been a lot longer than Saturday for me.
00:15:28You want to get naked?
00:15:30You want to get naked?
00:15:57You want to get naked?
00:16:07You want to get naked?
00:16:09You want to get naked?
00:16:10You want to get naked?
00:16:24You want to get naked?
00:16:25No.
00:16:28I'm sort of scared.
00:16:29Why?
00:16:32I don't know.
00:17:01I think I'm done.
00:17:06Finish this beard.
00:17:13Are you going to have yourself be in all your films?
00:17:17I don't know.
00:17:19Oh, okay.
00:17:20Just wondering.
00:17:21It seems, I wouldn't say odd.
00:17:26It is unusual.
00:17:28And part of it is, even as an artist, I am fairly prided.
00:17:33I would hate for anyone to see me in a film like that.
00:17:38But I think, I think you can also consider like, I am an actor.
00:17:49That what?
00:17:50I am an actor.
00:17:55Yeah, but I also think the minute you are there and using your name, everybody's going
00:18:02to read everything as autobiographical, because people do that anyway.
00:18:06Even if you had a different character and had an actor and named the person Bob.
00:18:12Bob.
00:18:13I think you're looking for ways of backing out.
00:18:16I'm not backing out because I was never in.
00:18:19I don't know if you understand how absolutely skin-crawly the whole thing makes me feel.
00:18:39Anyway, just regardless of what we talk about, I do enjoy talking to you.
00:18:47I love, I love you mom.
00:18:50Also, now I feel suspicious every time you say it.
00:18:57You're just saying that to try to get on my good side and be personable.
00:19:03But I do love you.
00:19:05I love you mom.
00:19:07Okay, bye bye.
00:19:08Bye bye, talk to you soon.
00:19:09Bye.
00:19:23Bye.
00:19:24Bye.
00:19:36What do you do?
00:19:37I'm an artist what kind of artist visual artist are you being evasive you think
00:19:44so I don't know why you're giving me these like almost monosyllabic answers
00:19:50all right what do you want to know what kind of artist are you I'm in I'm an
00:19:55artist I make artwork well that face I make photography
00:20:04you're gonna tell me what your arts about my art deals with visibility
00:20:14visibility of what people all people
00:20:23very specific types of people all right
00:20:30oh I think it's all people really but specifically the way certain types of
00:20:35people are seen or certain types of people have the right to see who's
00:20:41texting uh some dude yeah
00:20:55I'd like to see your photos maybe I'll take you to my place sometime
00:21:09not bad
00:21:17could you get undressed for me boxers too
00:21:25stop
00:21:30bow your head first down
00:21:37perfect
00:21:48can you get erect
00:21:57I don't think I can get hard
00:22:05maybe a different pose will help okay put these on
00:22:12stop
00:22:26keep going
00:22:31stop
00:22:43what do you think you'll gain by not listening
00:22:46do you think I'm not listening
00:22:48you kept going I said stop
00:22:53so there must be a miscommunication
00:22:55do you think I'm not listening
00:23:04you look great
00:23:10okay try again
00:23:21I don't think I can get hard
00:23:26I'm done shooting
00:23:30I'm sorry
00:23:37it doesn't really matter
00:23:39I don't know
00:23:39yeah
00:23:40yeah
00:24:06I don't know.
00:24:17Where are you going?
00:24:21Does it matter?
00:24:24Why are you...
00:24:49I'm going to go get some talk.
00:25:22We had dinner with your ex in the spring.
00:25:26You went to the bathroom and he asked how we'd met.
00:25:30Online, I answered.
00:25:33He leaned in and said that you were an inveterate flirt.
00:25:36You were unreliable, lascivious, unfaithful.
00:25:40You'd fuck anything that moved.
00:25:42You'd never change.
00:25:47I believed that you could, that you would, for me.
00:25:53You came back and picked up the check.
00:25:57We kissed your ex goodbye on the cheek.
00:25:59But I couldn't look him in the eye.
00:26:06Later that night, I told you I loved you.
00:26:09I didn't know how you'd react.
00:26:10I sort of mumbled it.
00:26:14You looked uncomfortable.
00:26:16I felt ashamed.
00:26:18And we fell asleep.
00:26:23In the middle of the night we had sex.
00:26:25Fast.
00:26:27You didn't look me in the eyes.
00:26:30Restrained my hands.
00:26:32Turned my body away from you.
00:26:37I felt your affection again when we fell back asleep.
00:26:41Your heart beating under my ear.
00:26:43I tried to match our breathing.
00:26:45But yours was too fast.
00:26:53Who's the island or a sweet water?
00:26:57We can drink whatever.
00:26:58I don't care.
00:26:59Alright.
00:27:02I can chug beer but I can't chug wine.
00:27:06I tried that once.
00:27:08Not a good evening.
00:27:11Yeah.
00:27:26I knew what was most interesting.
00:27:27And this.
00:27:28This was the shirt.
00:27:29The shirt I came home from a rocking.
00:27:34One.
00:27:35Two.
00:27:35Three.
00:27:44Someone's been in the Navy.
00:27:46The two pictures I have in there.
00:27:48That's pictures of my classes.
00:27:50That I taught at.
00:27:51Alright.
00:27:51The first class.
00:27:54The one where we're all wearing the blue.
00:27:56They're prior students.
00:27:58Alright.
00:27:58Doing both mounted and mounted patrols.
00:28:01So.
00:28:03And when you were in Iraq you were in Korma?
00:28:07Yeah.
00:28:12Are you going to be mad if like we don't?
00:28:16No.
00:28:18Okay.
00:28:19No.
00:28:21Just in case.
00:28:22A good evening.
00:28:23Mmm.
00:28:24This reciprocating the bar rumps.
00:28:27Come on.
00:28:33Would you sing for me?
00:28:37No.
00:28:38You didn't make it for me?
00:28:41The only word from the moment that we had
00:28:46So way down in my mind where you belong
00:28:55I'd go hungry, I'd go blind for you
00:29:01I'd go crawling down the avenue
00:29:07Make you happy, make your dreams come true
00:29:13To make you feel my love
00:29:31Well, and I would also say that unless it's an ironic title
00:29:35I don't think it has anything to do about love
00:29:38What do you think it has to do with?
00:29:43Um
00:29:53Just a series of encounters that don't seem to have much meaning
00:29:58Which I think you could say is part of the way that I'm looking at love
00:30:03Well, I don't think that's love
00:30:06I mean, it's so sad, it almost makes me cry
00:30:09It's like you don't want to know details about your parents' sexual life
00:30:15And you don't want to know details about your children's sexual life
00:30:21But I would go even further
00:30:23Basically, I don't really want to know details of anybody's sexual life
00:30:28I consider it kind of the least interesting part of anybody's life
00:30:58I mean, it's like I call it ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNP
00:31:14range Actually, I need a lot of Taylor's jokes How do you verstehen Regardezyttftmmftttf
00:31:19Bloomberg After
00:31:19the other filters You sold one of people among our dear friends
00:31:20All
00:31:22of my능
00:31:22group All we needed the
00:31:53You woke me up.
00:31:55Did you wake him up, then, boy?
00:31:57Yeah.
00:32:03Yeah, let's put him up while we eat, because if not, he won't leave us home and make that
00:32:06right.
00:32:07Sam and Joe is still a puppy, he's saying it.
00:32:24How did you sleep last night?
00:32:26Pretty well.
00:32:36I know you lied to me.
00:32:49Come on.
00:32:58Are you dating someone this time?
00:33:00Yeah, because you were dating someone, right?
00:33:03You guys were, like, in a semi-pseudo-relationship or something?
00:33:07Yeah, it's complicated, because we're very rarely in the same place.
00:33:13He's in Mexico City.
00:33:23Are you in a relationship?
00:33:26No, I was, then it ended.
00:33:39It was a week before I'd leave for Chicago.
00:33:44You were downstairs making breakfast, a Sunday morning.
00:33:52Your phone was on the counter, and it was still buzzing when I got out of the shower.
00:33:59I picked it up and saw dozens of messages from someone begging to have sex with you again.
00:34:05You'd been texting at dinner the night before, with fire in your eyes.
00:34:12You hadn't looked at me like that in a while, and it hurt to remember when it had been for
00:34:17me.
00:34:23I came downstairs in my underwear and gave you your phone.
00:34:28You said it had just been a fling.
00:34:31You could barely remember him.
00:34:33You'd just been playing around.
00:34:35There was no emotion in it.
00:34:41Your throat had tightened, and your voice was soft.
00:34:47You were kinder than I'd ever seen you.
00:34:52You said you'd ended your last relationship because your ex had been cheating on you.
00:34:59A week later, you told me you'd cheated on your ex before that for about a year.
00:35:05That's when I started seeing other men.
00:35:28That's when I started seeing other men.
00:35:36So our agreement is, I don't bring anybody back to the house.
00:35:41And I don't take away time when my husband is home.
00:35:45Because he's gone from Monday to Thursday.
00:35:48So I don't fuck around on Friday to Sunday.
00:35:52But there are times it would be nice to have a friend.
00:35:58And so a friend with benefits is also a good thing sometimes.
00:36:02That's something I'm still happy to work out in my head.
00:36:05Okay, if we're friends and we're fucking, how is that not an affair?
00:36:11The way I was thinking about it, if the intention, and intention I think does matter,
00:36:17if the intention is we're just going to be friends who once in a while suck each other's dicks,
00:36:24that's fine.
00:36:28It was a surprise seeing you the first time.
00:36:33Where'd it go?
00:36:34Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
00:36:36I'm not sure that's a good or bad thing.
00:36:39You were the first guy who came in to whom I was attracted sexually.
00:36:43Let the suck the dick on me.
00:36:46I need the other, I'm sorry.
00:36:47I need that.
00:36:52We can be friends who once in a while suck each other's dicks.
00:37:13We're just going to be friends who once in a while suck each other's dicks.
00:37:18Okay.
00:37:19We're just going to be friends who once in a while suck each other's dicks.
00:37:37You were the first guy who came in to whom I was attracted sexually.
00:37:42And I thought, well, because there was a mutual attraction.
00:37:48I'm a little confused.
00:37:50And it felt this way a long time.
00:37:52I mean, a long time.
00:37:54I'm going to be sure age, a long time.
00:37:56So it's been a while.
00:37:58I mean, I love my husband a lot.
00:38:01And we have a great life together.
00:38:03And so when I'm feeling for you, I don't know that I want to have sex with you.
00:38:08But I do want to know you.
00:38:12Does that make sense?
00:38:14Yeah.
00:38:16I mean, it's mute.
00:38:17I bet you.
00:38:18I do want to have sex with you.
00:38:55What we're doing here, what I'm doing here, is such a betrayal.
00:39:11So how often do you come out here?
00:39:14I try to get it at least once a month, sometimes twice.
00:39:19I'm trying to get it ready to sell.
00:39:21That's why I'm painting the outside, although it needed it regardless.
00:39:24And, yeah, so just trying to get it sold, get rid of it.
00:39:52What made you want to come out here with me?
00:40:22What made you want to come out here?
00:40:31Did you ever let your beard grow up?
00:40:34Yes.
00:40:39But last time I did, there was a lot of gray in it.
00:40:42Years from New Southampton.
00:40:46To be continued...
00:41:19You haven't texted in weeks.
00:41:24I call you and explain what I've been doing in Chicago.
00:41:29I chatted online with 900 men, met 12 in person, and I'm filming with a few of them.
00:41:39Some of them want to have sex with me.
00:41:42I thought it'd feel good to be able to give them what they want.
00:41:46But I still can't sleep.
00:41:48I'm not eating.
00:41:49I don't feel right about what I'm doing.
00:41:53I stop talking.
00:41:58You seem distracted.
00:42:01It looks like you're answering emails.
00:42:03You keep typing.
00:42:08You tell me I'm crazy and laugh.
00:42:12I want your attention.
00:42:16I want you to tell me to stop.
00:42:25So, uh, my husband, he'll be back in a few minutes.
00:42:37Do I need to leave?
00:42:48Not in the apartment.
00:42:49Okay.
00:42:50Okay.
00:42:51Okay.
00:43:03To be honest, but to be really bluntly honest, this is kind of just like completely narcissistic,
00:43:15Like, you know, these are the guys I went out with, and aren't I special?
00:43:19You know, because in the film, you're a monster.
00:43:22Really?
00:43:25There's a real sense of you using people when you make films.
00:43:29Why not just write a script and hire actors?
00:43:33That's not a real normal thing to do in life.
00:43:36It's like, my personal life is of great interest to me,
00:43:40so it must be of great interest to everybody else, so here it is.
00:43:43It's almost like a comedy.
00:43:46For me, it is a comedy.
00:43:48Huh?
00:43:49It is a comedy.
00:43:51Yeah, I'm not sure people will get it.
00:43:57Yeah.
00:43:58So Miranda had an uncle who...
00:44:04I think he died of AIDS just before she was born,
00:44:08and he was going to be her godfather.
00:44:13And he gave her a stuffed animal, I think, and wrote her a letter
00:44:21basically saying that he loved her without knowing her
00:44:27before she was born.
00:44:32And I think there's something of that
00:44:35when you kind of blindly
00:44:43want to put together something
00:44:45that can be meaningful for people that you don't know.
00:44:49you're supremely aware of, like, what image-making is.
00:44:53Yeah.
00:44:54And, like, how it can be
00:44:58a betrayal, but how it can also be
00:45:01a gift.
00:45:13A gift to whom?
00:45:18I wanted to say that I'm sorry.
00:45:25I was, like, not performative
00:45:28sexually.
00:45:30I think I wish I...
00:45:31I really wish that I had been into it.
00:45:33Because I really like you,
00:45:34and I wish there was a possibility of something
00:45:36on my end.
00:45:37I think there was something fucked up about me
00:45:39that, like, prevented that from happening.
00:45:41Or do you think it was?
00:45:50I think it's something...
00:45:52I think it's because you're young.
00:45:54And I think I'm intimidated by people
00:45:56who are my age, sexually.
00:45:59Not, like, in terms of friendship, but...
00:46:02Interesting.
00:46:07And, like, as much as I want that,
00:46:10my body's not doing that.
00:46:14Okay.
00:46:15So if you thought about that,
00:46:16that's kind of interesting.
00:46:17Why you'd be intimidated by someone
00:46:19who's more your age
00:46:20and someone who is less your age.
00:46:25Or more than your age.
00:46:30It's okay.
00:46:31I mean, this guy's in for a good night.
00:46:32I sleep older, too.
00:46:33So it's...
00:46:40Well, there's someone here I don't know.
00:46:41I'd love to hear
00:46:42why you're attracted to him as well.
00:46:46You're thinking too long.
00:46:47Am I thinking too long?
00:46:48Yeah, you are.
00:46:49Okay.
00:46:53One of the things you said to me
00:46:54when we first met was,
00:46:55I try not to have expectations.
00:46:57I have granola in my hair.
00:47:00I try not to have any expectations
00:47:01because expectations create frustration
00:47:03and lead to disappointment.
00:47:05Which struck me as, like, incredibly wise.
00:47:08And I was like,
00:47:08oh, wow.
00:47:09Like, you're really wise.
00:47:11And then you came out
00:47:12with, like, all of these expectations.
00:47:14Okay, good.
00:47:15I was like, wait a second.
00:47:16And I disappointed you.
00:47:17And I'm confused
00:47:18about, like, what's between us now.
00:47:24What was it that you wanted?
00:47:26I wanted him.
00:47:32And I think you
00:47:33being explicit about it
00:47:34made me not want it.
00:47:38And maybe that was fair.
00:47:40I mean, you know.
00:47:41Just because I want it
00:47:42doesn't mean you want it.
00:47:44But then I'm still curious
00:47:45why you give a shit now.
00:47:46Why you want to work this out now.
00:47:48If you didn't want it,
00:47:50I didn't force it on you
00:47:51like you didn't force us to be here.
00:47:53Why do you want...
00:47:55What is this?
00:48:01I think part of the truth
00:48:03in his being obtuse
00:48:04is, like, the same thing
00:48:05that goes on in the artist's mind.
00:48:06That's, like,
00:48:07you make something
00:48:08and then you try to figure it out later.
00:48:12You, I think,
00:48:14like the idea
00:48:15of not having
00:48:20a script.
00:48:22You create scripts,
00:48:23but you like not having a script.
00:48:25Because I think
00:48:25there is this
00:48:29artistic persona
00:48:30that I find bothersome.
00:48:32that, you know,
00:48:34that finding meaning
00:48:35after the fact.
00:48:38Well, there had to...
00:48:39There might be meaning
00:48:40after the fact,
00:48:41but there had to be
00:48:42some impetus.
00:48:43We don't do things
00:48:44without impetus.
00:49:15There might be, like,
00:49:26As soon as I'm alone again, you creep back into my thoughts.
00:49:36I ask you to visit me in Chicago.
00:49:39You come for a few days.
00:49:41Book us a hotel.
00:49:45I'm excited to see you again, but you're texting the whole time.
00:49:52We get to the room, though, and it all comes back.
00:49:57I can't control myself.
00:49:59I need you.
00:50:01I'll do anything for you.
00:50:07The morning you're flying back out, I wake up and I see you on your phone.
00:50:14You're making plans to see someone in Mexico City tonight after you land.
00:50:19I can't wait to taste you again.
00:50:25You go to shower and I read other messages you've written him.
00:50:29I can't stop thinking about you.
00:50:32Stay the night.
00:50:34I'll make you breakfast tomorrow.
00:50:40I copy your message thread and email it to myself.
00:50:45You kiss me, leave the hotel room, and fly back to Mexico.
00:50:54And I read your messages over and over.
00:50:58My face tightening so hard I can't cry.
00:51:02I can't cry.
00:51:06I can't cry.
00:51:10I can't cry.
00:51:38It's the boy you want to talk to him.
00:51:41It's the child that you want to talk to him.
00:51:43To-
00:51:45I will go.
00:51:47Too busy to talk?
00:51:49Uh, no, no, no, not at all, huh?
00:51:51Oh, okay.
00:51:52Here she is.
00:51:54Thanks, Dad.
00:51:56Hola?
00:51:57Hey, Mom. How's it going?
00:52:00Okay, and you?
00:52:01I'm doing alright. Uh, it's hot.
00:52:05Do you remember the guy who is, uh, married?
00:52:09No.
00:52:10Okay, in the, well, in the, in the film.
00:52:15Not really, but, uh, yeah.
00:52:17Okay, well, um, he sent me yesterday.
00:52:22In order, like, basically, anyway, there's something, he sent me this message yesterday
00:52:28that was, uh, really bizarre, but also maybe, it felt, it felt calculated, um, it was,
00:52:41I don't have time for your project anymore, good luck and safe travels.
00:52:45I was only in it to fuck you again, and since that's not happening, my interest has dried up.
00:52:52Oh.
00:52:54Which, um, I think, um, I don't know, I'm still, I'm still thinking about it.
00:53:08Well, I guess it's only, to be expected, we're trying to use real people, I mean, real people do unexpected
00:53:16things.
00:53:16You can expect to practice and to prevent me from home.
00:53:22But, uh, what he's clearly griped you.
00:53:46And if you want me to do that, it's okay?"
00:53:57Whether you're on camera, off camera, there's always a certain level of manipulation in
00:54:05any type of relationship regardless.
00:54:09Whether it be intentional, non-intentional, or just to protect, it's funny, it's like
00:54:19I don't care if I get making for anybody, I don't care.
00:54:23It does not bother me one bit, but I won't put myself out there that much.
00:54:29Because I mean, when you kind of throw it out there all on the table, sometimes people
00:54:35get burned, so to speak.
00:54:41I think there is something there between the two of us.
00:54:45Definitely sexual attention from the moment.
00:54:51But I think there is some attraction between us.
00:54:55Where that attraction is at, I'm not sure if it's just curiosity of what it is.
00:55:00I think there is something more than just sex.
00:55:03Does that feel like it's key for you?
00:55:05No, not really.
00:55:07But I mean, it's like the icing on cake, so to speak.
00:55:12If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.
00:55:15It's not going to be like, oh my God, don't ever talk to me ever again.
00:55:18But if it does happen, more than, you know, more, you know, just more than marriage, so to speak.
00:55:27Hey, you've been here for what, about 30 minutes and we still, but we still both have our clothes on.
00:55:35It's a record.
00:55:40Hmm?
00:55:45Mmm.
00:55:47Yeah.
00:55:49Hey fat boy.
00:55:50Hey fat boy.
00:55:51Oh.
00:55:52Oh.
00:55:54Oh.
00:55:55Oh.
00:55:56Oh.
00:55:57Oh.
00:55:57Oh.
00:55:58Oh.
00:55:59Oh.
00:55:59Oh.
00:56:01Oh.
00:56:01Yeah.
00:56:02God.
00:56:04No.
00:56:05That one.
00:56:31Oh, you see a little bit of that.
00:56:32Yeah.
00:56:32Then I've got one where I almost cut off my knuckle.
00:56:36Which knuckle was that?
00:56:38Oh, here also?
00:56:40Opening beer bottles, when I used to bartend.
00:56:44I fell directly on my chin, and it was cold, so I didn't notice.
00:56:50And either my parents or my friends or someone said, are you hurt?
00:56:57And I looked behind me, and I just left a stream of blood on ice.
00:57:03And me and my brother were sore fighting, and he smacked me.
00:57:07I didn't actually need to stitch this wood than having money, so we just cleaned it out
00:57:11really well and went from there.
00:57:14We were playing in the barn, and I slipped off the hay bale, and a piece of wood went
00:57:19in my leg.
00:57:20Oh man.
00:57:21Yeah.
00:57:23Yeah.
00:57:24How'd you pull it out?
00:57:26We just pulled it out, and then my mom had to dig it out and actually cut it a little
00:57:30bit more to get all the wood out.
00:57:41So you're going back, no, I didn't know if you were-
00:57:46I'm leaving on Saturday.
00:57:47Good day.
00:58:27Yeah, I'm sure you see some of the, some of the burning parts of this.
00:58:30Well, actually that's part of the chart, look, I feel that, I feel that, I get to see parts of
00:58:38it, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I'm not from Chicago, I don't know. Basically, it's, okay, north
00:58:50and west of the city, but right there on the floor, the chart was happening, okay, okay, yeah, see, okay.
00:59:00I feel that, I feel that, I, I don't know, I know, I know, I know, I don't know what
00:59:03to do, I don't want to see what you're saying.
00:59:32I'm going to try it.
00:59:42I'm going to put it in me.
00:59:49It's like that quiet, intense lurking.
00:59:58Somebody's over there behind you.
01:00:01Somebody's off in the shadows.
01:00:02I love this.
01:00:07It's interesting how hard it is to be.
01:00:11I love this.
01:01:06I've just boarded a plane to Paris where I'll be teaching in the fall.
01:01:14You text me.
01:01:17Ask me to spend New Year's with you.
01:01:22It's too late.
01:01:25I've already made plans to spend it with another man.
01:01:32A moment passes.
01:01:37You write me.
01:01:411877.
01:01:43I'm not seeing anyone.
01:01:46I'm crying.
01:01:491877.
01:01:52You write again.
01:01:55That's the number of attachments we've sent each other since I got a new phone.
01:02:001877.
01:02:02I just checked.
01:02:06You keep writing.
01:02:08Why did you talk to me every day?
01:02:11Why did we keep having sex?
01:02:15Why did you give me hope?
01:02:191877 attachments.
01:02:22I didn't feel the need to find someone else.
01:02:25I'm destroyed.
01:02:291877 staples I now have to tear off my heart.
01:02:34Our bodies are so good together.
01:02:36I can't imagine life without you.
01:02:39Call me.
01:02:40Please.
01:02:41I love you.
01:02:441877.
01:03:18Please.
01:03:37See you later.
01:03:56You're still typing when my flight takes off and I lose service.
01:04:07At one point recently, you said you would really like somebody that you formed a long-term
01:04:13relationship with and had somebody to live with.
01:04:15Yeah.
01:04:16Yeah.
01:04:17And that's not a thrill-a-minute proposition.
01:04:21The thrill-a-minute stuff, you kind of get out of your system when you're a teenager or,
01:04:26you know.
01:04:27In your 20s?
01:04:30In your 20s?
01:04:32Well, yeah.
01:04:33You know, I think a lot of people don't get what they want because they're looking for
01:04:39something dramatic like in the movies.
01:04:42It's not an all-the-time thing that works constantly.
01:04:48And to be honest, one time when I left for a dad, I thought about it for a good three
01:04:53or four months trying to decide whether to go back.
01:04:57And I finally decided, and the deciding factor was, that I like traveling with dad more than
01:05:06I like traveling with anybody else I've gone traveling with.
01:05:13I love that.
01:05:16We're compatible on the road.
01:05:18I mean, it's great.
01:05:20Yeah.
01:05:22And to fill my inner life.
01:05:25I want you to do whatever you have to do.
01:05:29Don't do anything because you want to please me or actually anybody else.
01:05:40Just think long and hard about what you're doing and what the consequences are going to be and
01:05:45will you be happy with them.
01:05:48I really appreciate you saying that, Mom.
01:05:53I know.
01:05:54I mean, it sort of crystallizes a lot of how you raised me and I'm grateful for that.
01:06:03Well, and, um, yeah, whatever.
01:06:27I fly to Mexico for work.
01:06:33I want to see you again, and you do too.
01:06:40I'm exhausted but full of adrenaline.
01:06:44You open the door, tall and quiet, gentle.
01:06:53You say it's a surprise seeing me.
01:06:58Your beard has grown out.
01:07:00You know I like that.
01:07:04We walk up the steps.
01:07:06You try to take one of my bags, but it's easier to let me carry it.
01:07:16Your house and your body.
01:07:18The same but different.
01:07:22A new clearing in the garden.
01:07:25An unfamiliar painting in your bedroom.
01:07:30You wear a white cardigan I've never seen before.
01:07:36You taste the same.
01:07:43We use your phone to film each other.
01:07:47And we make love better than ever before.
01:07:55You know my body.
01:07:59How it moves.
01:08:01What I like.
01:08:03Dislike.
01:08:05What I hate.
01:08:08What I love.
01:08:11What I love.
01:08:19You show me what you recorded.
01:08:22And I ask you to send it to me.
01:08:261,878.
01:08:501,878.
01:08:54Sauté à l'élastique
01:08:57Voleuse d'enfants au fond des criques
01:09:02J'ai fait la cour à des murets
01:09:04J'ai fait l'amour, j'ai fait le mort
01:09:08T'étais pas née
01:09:12À la station balnéaire
01:09:14Tu t'es pas fait prier
01:09:17J'étais camp de craint, j'ai zé
01:09:19Pour un peu je trempais
01:09:23Histoire d'eau
01:09:29La nuit je mens, je prends des trains
01:09:32À travers la plaine
01:09:34La nuit je mens, je m'enlève les mains
01:09:39J'ai dans les bottes et montagnes
01:09:41Des questions où subsiste encore ton égo
01:09:46Où subsiste encore ton égo
01:09:54J'ai fait la saison dans cette boîte crânienne
01:09:58Tes pensées, je les faisais miennes
01:10:03T'accaparer seulement t'accaparer
01:10:07D'astrade en estrade
01:10:12J'ai fait danser tant de malentendus
01:10:15Des kilomètres de vie en rose
01:10:19Un jour au cirque, un autre à chercher à te plaire
01:10:24Dresseuse de l'eau, dynamiteuse d'acaduc
01:10:30La nuit je mens, je prends des trains
01:10:32À travers la plaine
01:10:34La nuit je mens, effrontément
01:10:39J'ai dans les bottes et montagnes de questions
01:10:43Où subsiste encore ton égo
01:10:48Où subsiste encore ton égo
01:10:56On m'a vue dans le verre corps
01:10:59Sauter à l'élastique
01:11:02Vôleuse d'enfants au fond des criques
01:11:12Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
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