- 2 days ago
What was it like racing side-by-sides in 2014? Cycle World's Justin Dawes hangs with the UTV Driver crew and tells all about his UTV racing experiences. Plus we get into possible Toyota rigs, industry trends and parting thoughts on the craziness of 2025.
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00Hello and welcome back to the UTV Driver Podcast. I am content editor Jackson Cooper, joined today by editor Anders
00:00:06Carlson and our guest, executive editor of Cycle World, Justin Dawes. How are we doing today?
00:00:11How's it going?
00:00:13Doing just fine. So, you're not only the executive editor of Cycle World. You spent a ton of time on
00:00:19motorcycles. We don't care about that. We're a UTV podcast.
00:00:24We do care a little bit about that.
00:00:25Listen, we're friends of all power sports here.
00:00:28That's right. Power sports is power sports. Power sports is Jason.
00:00:31But you did spend some time racing UTVs. Is that right?
00:00:34Yeah, I did, actually. I kind of have a very long history with UTVs. Way back in, oh man, the
00:00:45late 90s, like I would take like Kawasaki Mules.
00:00:49I worked at Kawasaki and we would take Mule 1000s to the sand dunes and like bomb them up the
00:00:55hill.
00:00:55This is like pre-Yamaha Rhino days.
00:00:59And so, I've been into UTVs for a long time and then was like a test rider in the quality
00:01:07assurance group for Kawasaki for a while and helped develop the Terex from the beginning till its first release.
00:01:15And then went to the media side at one point and used my connections to be able to fund a
00:01:24year of pro class racing in works in 2014 on a Razor.
00:01:31First Razor XP 1000.
00:01:34Yeah, 2014 was the first year of the Razor XP 1000. So, that's what you raced, the XP 1000?
00:01:39Yeah, that's what I raced. Yeah, I had a media unit. I let them talk. I talked them into letting
00:01:44me keep it and modify it for racing, which included, you know, everything from suspension to cage to moving the
00:01:53radiator.
00:01:53You know, all the things you would do for racing and then breaking all the things during racing.
00:01:59Fantastic.
00:02:00So, did you win everything or did you just win a lot?
00:02:04I won absolutely nothing.
00:02:06The closest thing I came to winning was pre, pre works that year. I raced the Elsinore Grand Prix in
00:02:13the UTV class, which was a stacked class. There was short course drivers there that were pros. There was works
00:02:20racers. There was best in desert racers. Everyone brought their cars to kind of test.
00:02:25And I yanked the whole shot with my car and led the entire race until the last lap and I
00:02:39broke a rear radius rod and it broke and then went with the whole lap trying to hold off the
00:02:52pack.
00:02:52And my co-driver with me was like, we're broken. We got to stop. And I'm like, I'm not stopping
00:02:56until we're off the podium. And we ended up second. We only got passed by one guy. We had a
00:03:01over a seven minute lead. They said when, when I came around on the last lap before it broke.
00:03:06So I was like, oh, I'm ready to go race works. This is going to be no problem. I am.
00:03:11I'm an awesome driver. And maybe I still think I'm an awesome driver, but, uh, the car didn't agree because
00:03:19it broke probably 70.
00:03:22A little too familiar with breaking radius rods. We broke one on our, uh, can MX three on an outing
00:03:28one time. And, uh, immediately after we, we were throwing all kinds of parts on it. We were, I think
00:03:34we threw, uh, super ATV, whatever, chromoly aluminum, heavy duty radius rods.
00:03:41So that like, you know, anybody who has a side by side knows that the stock radius rods are these
00:03:46thin, like two metal. And, uh, yeah. So that's not, not a big surprise that they broke.
00:03:52No, no. Yeah. And, and, uh, we continued to break them every once in a while, even with the bigger
00:04:00batter, you know, cause you have hardware at the end that breaks and then it just moves down the line
00:04:05and you break other things.
00:04:06So, um, but racing, racing works was really fun. Um, I think the best I did was an eighth place
00:04:14in that was, I think it's Sand Hollow, Utah.
00:04:17So I raced in the pro class and at that time works had, I would say they had 40 cars
00:04:26in the pro class and then they had an amateur class and a novice or whatever the classes were, but
00:04:32they had four or five UTV races in a day.
00:04:36It was, it was, it was big. It was really, really big.
00:04:40So you go to the thing that's, you know, uh, so 11 years ago in, uh, side-by-side terms
00:04:45is kind of like a generation ago.
00:04:50I don't know if you, you, you follow much of what's happening now, but you know, uh, even casually, like
00:04:55what, what sort of differences do you see between like the time when you competed and just, uh, like, you
00:05:02know, more recent years.
00:05:03There's been a lot that's changed. Um, things have gotten beefier, but still, I don't think sometimes beefy enough. Um,
00:05:12lots more power.
00:05:13I mean, I think the XP 1000 back in the day was like, uh, just over a hundred horsepower. Like
00:05:20it wasn't, you know, and that was like a revelation when that thing came out.
00:05:24Everyone was like, Oh my God, this thing is crazy.
00:05:26And now the XP 1000 is like, Oh, that's beginner rig now.
00:05:29You know? Yeah. That's like a, it's like, that's slow. Um, you know, especially you've got, you know, things like
00:05:36the, the Terex 4H2 or the Terex H2 and you know, the, the R, the Polaris R and all those,
00:05:43all the things with R's on them.
00:05:46Yeah. Pro R, Mav R, all those.
00:05:48Yeah. Huge, huge horsepower, super fast. I mean, I could only have dreamed that my, uh, race UDV could go
00:05:57over 90 miles an hour.
00:05:58Yeah. And now it's like, yeah, that's anybody can go by a hundred miles an hour off the shelves from
00:06:04Kawasaki, you know?
00:06:06So you came in the alphabet wars. There was only a razor and an XP. There were only five letters.
00:06:13And now there's DS, there's RR, there's XS, there's RC, there's like, yeah, all those things.
00:06:21So, um, I think that's the biggest difference. Tire size, obviously like the, the things have just gotten bigger.
00:06:28What, what tire size were you running back then?
00:06:30Oh man. Um, I want to say now it's like 35s or bust, you know?
00:06:37I think, I think my tires were 29 inch.
00:06:40Wow. That not even breaching 30. That's impressive.
00:06:43Not even kicking 30. Yeah.
00:06:45Yeah. You can get Rangers with 30s on them now.
00:06:47Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day, man, that was the thing. And tire technology, you know, they, they were still
00:06:53very much a ATV tire that was adapted and larger.
00:06:59Um, and we were trying all kinds of stuff to make our cars faster and lighter. And, um, I would
00:07:06take GBC, man, I can't remember the name of the tire now, but we would like, we would groove them.
00:07:14We would cut a bunch of rubber off of them to get better traction. And then we would, um, basically
00:07:20buff the sides of them and reduce the weight on the sidewall to get more throttle response out of the
00:07:27car.
00:07:27Because the tires even then felt so heavy for that hundred horsepower that any way you could get weight off
00:07:35of, you know, off the wheels to make them spin faster. That's what we were trying to do.
00:07:41Yeah. You sacrifice your, uh, tire beefiness and, and for, uh, for a little bit of weight reduction.
00:07:47Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. That's, that's so old school. Cause you see like old, um, old footage of like a
00:07:53flat track from like way back when, like the seventies. And you see guys in the pits with razor blades,
00:07:58like cutting, cutting, siping and grooves under the tires. That's interesting. That's a, a real hands-on like sort of
00:08:05old school approach.
00:08:06It is. Yeah. My, um, my uncle had this old tire groover in his garage that is amazing. I still
00:08:13have it. It's in this big wooden box and, you know, big old handle and it's got all these tips
00:08:19on it and it gets really hot and just, it was, it was kind of relaxing to do.
00:08:25Sure. Sure. Sure. Just about everyone or anyone who's into cars has seen some viral video of that on Instagram
00:08:31reels or something of someone who's taking one of those things. I've always been interested in them just because like,
00:08:36that seems like the worst idea, but no, it was fun. It was really fun. And you could kind of
00:08:42play around with, with the grooving, you know, like, Oh, okay. I'm going to open up this knob. I'm going
00:08:48to cut this one in half. So it is softer.
00:08:50So like the straight line stuff, we try to make them softer and then give the side, the side of
00:08:56the tire more bite. So when you're sliding, you have more grip, more control. And I don't know. I was
00:09:02working with a guy, um, Wayne at PEP, they do shocks, ATV shocks and stuff. And he's a mad scientist.
00:09:11And so he, he built these shocks and these arms for the car and we would go out testing. And
00:09:17then he got into like, okay, now we got to make the tires work.
00:09:20And he was like mad scientist with all that stuff. It was really cool. That's impressive.
00:09:26Okay. So I've always been interested in racing. I've always wanted, you know, we've had rigs in here where I've
00:09:31been like, what if, what if I just go to Dakar or what if I go to the Paja 1000
00:09:35and just try my luck?
00:09:37So if I wanted to race next week, you have experience in this. If I wanted to race next week,
00:09:42what kind of rig would I need? And what kind of money would I need to do that?
00:09:46Ooh. Uh, well, I mean, you could, you could try with a stock car. I don't know. You need, uh,
00:09:57obviously belts. You would need maybe a cage, but you could go race GNCC, like right off the rip.
00:10:06But, you know, I've, I don't know what class they were racing in, but you know, Can-Am went to,
00:10:12I want to say King of the Hammers or the Baja 400 with just the, uh, just the Maverick R,
00:10:18like a stock Maverick R.
00:10:19So, uh, I mean, we have two of those in the shop right now. So.
00:10:23Exactly. So, I mean, like, yeah, if you're, if you're East coast, I would, I would really recommend GNCC. I
00:10:28think it, it is still a very awesome racing organization.
00:10:32I mean, there's thousands of people that race at every round of a GNCC and motorcycle, ATV, UTV. Um, it's
00:10:39very family orientated. It's, it's, it's a really good scene and it's not too expensive and, um, you can get
00:10:48into it for cheap.
00:10:49Obviously that's not a option for people on the West coast. And so then you can do some sort of,
00:10:55um, you know, off-road, like you said, like Baja, but I would recommend doing rather than like the Baja
00:11:02400, 500, thousand San Felipe 250.
00:11:07Like those are really rough on the cars. Um, I would recommend doing the Mexican 1000 with Nora. It's a
00:11:15rally and you, you race over multiple days. You get to do a road book rally type of thing. Um,
00:11:23it's a less brutal, get your feet wet, get you, you know, into the, the groove. And if you break,
00:11:30you have, you know, depending on how far you are through the race, you have more days to fix it.
00:11:37Fix your stuff and keep racing and enjoy. And I think you get a lot for your money in that,
00:11:42in that class. Um, but those races aren't cheap. So I think, uh, three grand for an entry fee. Oh,
00:11:52and that's just a lot of money. That's, that's before your rig. That's before your crew. It's before everything. Yes.
00:11:58That's, that's a lot of money. Um, it does include support, including, you know, pulling you out. If you're broken,
00:12:07medical, um, there's meals included with that, there's parties, there's, you know, there's stuff with it that makes it worth,
00:12:14worth the price. Yeah. But I mean, like you go race score, I think score, don't quote me on this,
00:12:20but I think it's like 12 to 1500 bucks.
00:12:22Yeah. And you get nothing. Like you get, you get to race, leave the line. And then after that, you're
00:12:29on your own. And the racing is totally different. You know, when you have a road book or a, uh,
00:12:36a route that's set like that, you have warnings and you have speed zones and you have, you have these
00:12:43things where like, when you go race score, you pre-run it yourself and you mark your own hazards. Right.
00:12:49And you run it eight times when you're pre-running.
00:12:52And you know, every single rock, every single bump, but on race day, there's no guarantee that that rock or
00:12:58that bump or the backside of that rise hasn't changed.
00:13:01Yeah. You know, especially if you're like close to the back of the order where it's like, you've had a
00:13:08day of other racers completely changing the course.
00:13:11Yeah, exactly. Not, not to mention spectators changing the course, spectators, um, sitting in the wrong space on the course,
00:13:21farmers driving from their, their house.
00:13:24I mean, again, we've all seen videos of a trophy truck coming over a ledge and like almost landing on
00:13:29a group of spectators.
00:13:30Yeah. Or, or, or the one where, uh, there was a, like a Jeep Cherokee going one direction and trophy
00:13:36truck came over rice airborne.
00:13:38Just the front tire just clips the mirror of the, of the, the Cherokee and the truck keeps going. And
00:13:45then, you know, and everyone's like, Oh my God.
00:13:46And there was all these people to see it and you know, it's wild. So, um, granted there's the, there's
00:13:52people on the course during the Nora as well, but they slow you down in populated areas.
00:13:57You have penalties if you speed, which they do do in, in score in some places, but, um, you know,
00:14:05the hazards are so much more well-marked.
00:14:08It feels like a lot safer race doing that.
00:14:12Interesting.
00:14:13What sort of a, so like, you know, you were a privateer, obviously, and the sport has grown and everything
00:14:18else like that.
00:14:19How much, like what kind of supports vehicle network people? Like what, what kind of size crew did you have?
00:14:26Like how did, as far as, you know, like.
00:14:28So when I was racing works, um, I had, um, the guys from PP, two people that were helping tuning.
00:14:37They didn't go to all the races.
00:14:38Then I would have like some family members and maybe some staffers from the magazine that I worked at that
00:14:44time.
00:14:44So I'd have like four or five people, but works is a, is a grand pre style.
00:14:48So you come around the same place every four to eight miles, right?
00:14:55So you're fairly close.
00:14:57You don't need a big support system to, to cover you over long distances.
00:15:01Um, so that was, that was easy, but, um, you know, and that would be the same thing at GNCC.
00:15:07You don't need a huge support crew to go race GNCC.
00:15:12Um, desert racing is a completely different thing.
00:15:15You know, you need a lot of people, you need trucks to be able to get you out of the
00:15:18desert.
00:15:19You need, you know, you need a minimum of five to eight people to support you to really do it.
00:15:28Gotcha.
00:15:28How long was the course anyway in works?
00:15:30In works, it was, uh, let's see pro class, I think was two hours and the courses varied in length.
00:15:39And so you just raised her two hours plus one lap.
00:15:41Um, if I remember properly, um, it might've been 90 minutes back then.
00:15:47Um, they, they, they keep changing the pro class length.
00:15:51There was a time when I think it was two hours, then it was all the way down an hour.
00:15:55And then, you know, I don't know what, what they're doing now.
00:15:58Cause I haven't followed it as much, but, um, you know, works is fun.
00:16:02It's kind of like GNCC, um, you know, they don't really have works anymore.
00:16:07They, but there's things like works.
00:16:10Um, my brother, he races is, he's got a Talon, uh, with a turbo on it and they go do
00:16:18turbo kits
00:16:20like from the factory.
00:16:22Like you can just, they have an approved turbo kit.
00:16:24Yeah.
00:16:24It's by Jackson.
00:16:25That's incredible.
00:16:26Yeah.
00:16:27See, and everything that's really a warranty and everything on it.
00:16:30Yeah.
00:16:30Which is pretty cool.
00:16:32So, so he's got that, he's got one that's all built up.
00:16:35Um, and they do a man, I wish I would pay more attention to the series, but, um, it's
00:16:42a local desert race series with loops.
00:16:45It's not a point to point or whatever.
00:16:47So, but I think the loops are longer.
00:16:49They're like 50 miles and you do two, two laps or something like that.
00:16:52Yeah.
00:16:53So, and he's having, he's having fun doing it.
00:16:56Um, even though they haven't finished a race yet, they keep.
00:17:00And that's, and that's part of UTV racing that, um, uh, the hardest part of it is keeping
00:17:07things together and prepping the car so that it doesn't break.
00:17:11And there's always something you didn't think of.
00:17:13I mean, I, I snapped, uh, um, a tie rod bolt, you know, that goes into the steering knuckle
00:17:21one time at Havasu.
00:17:22It was a grade eight, nice bolt, like, but you know, it just happens.
00:17:28It's always the weakest link.
00:17:29Yeah.
00:17:30You know, they just happened to snap in a whoop section.
00:17:32I just went end over end in the whoops when the tires went the wrong direction.
00:17:37Yeah.
00:17:37Now you're 10 miles from the next bolt.
00:17:40Yeah, exactly.
00:17:42Yeah.
00:17:42Yeah.
00:17:43You're done at that point.
00:17:45So, um, UTV, UTV racing isn't cheap.
00:17:48We'll just put it that way.
00:17:49Yeah.
00:17:50But it's, it's fun.
00:17:51It's really fun.
00:17:52It's cheaper than going racing cars unless you want to go race like class 11 or something
00:17:56where you get a Volkswagen and you just beat yourself to death.
00:17:59You also raced motorcycles in the desert, right?
00:18:03Uh, yeah, I did.
00:18:04I did race motorcycles.
00:18:06Uh, so what, what, what would you say are like the main differences?
00:18:09Because it's both, it's both desert racing.
00:18:12It's both off-road.
00:18:13What was the main differences between the motorcycle and the UTV racing?
00:18:18Obviously.
00:18:19Other than the, like, you know, 10 years of difference between the two.
00:18:22Yeah.
00:18:22The, the there's, well, there's the, um, exposure level of your body, obviously.
00:18:27Yeah.
00:18:27But, um, UTV racing, you're in a cage, you have a good seat, you've got, um, five point
00:18:35harnesses, you should have a Hans device.
00:18:39So you're fairly, fairly invincible.
00:18:44You feel, you feel much safer and, and you can probably have a bit more bravado than you
00:18:50do on a motorcycle.
00:18:51Um, it's calmer to me, like driving, driving and racing, uh, any sort of four wheel vehicle
00:18:58is so much calmer than riding a motorcycle.
00:19:05Um, yeah, because on a motorcycle, it's your entire body, your entire body and you're, you're
00:19:10moving around a lot and there's more movement to the vehicle where in a, in a side-by-side
00:19:18or a car, you can really sit there and concentrate on putting tires in the right place, you know,
00:19:26doing all those things.
00:19:28And it seems to remove some of the, the periphery of, you know, stuff kicking you and hurting
00:19:35you and your body aching more.
00:19:38It's less physical, you know?
00:19:40So, yeah.
00:19:42So it's easier, I think it's, uh, it's not, it's not as physically or mentally draining
00:19:50as it is on a motorcycle, which is more enjoyable sometimes, you know, get down with a, you get
00:19:57down with a, a UTV race and you may be tired and you may be dusty and you may be
00:20:03muddy, but
00:20:05you're not in like, usually in like super physical pain where you're like, oh, why do I do this?
00:20:10You didn't feel like you just worked out for 10 hours straight.
00:20:13Yeah.
00:20:13Your hands aren't bleeding and, you know.
00:20:15Plus after a UTV race, you're a lot poorer.
00:20:18So right there.
00:20:19You are.
00:20:19You are a lot poorer.
00:20:21Yeah.
00:20:22Well, I, I don't know.
00:20:23Sometimes motorcycles get expensive.
00:20:25Like that Suzuki back there, that was not a cheap thing.
00:20:28The, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the famous, the famous, um, the famous, oh yeah.
00:20:32Yeah.
00:20:33That's a, what, what is that behind you again?
00:20:35Uh, it's a Suzuki V-Strom 800 DE that we turned into a rally bike and I raced it in
00:20:402000.
00:20:40That's a sidebar.
00:20:42Big sidebar.
00:20:43Yeah.
00:20:44But I mean, that had 12 grand worth of stuff on it, 14 grand.
00:20:50So it's not that much, it's not really that much cheaper sometimes.
00:20:55Yeah.
00:20:55But, okay, well, I think that's enough about racing, you know.
00:20:58Yeah, yeah.
00:20:59Cool.
00:20:59We, we, we cover it enough.
00:21:00But.
00:21:01We also cover some really rad stuff.
00:21:04Um, one of the most popular rad things that recently came out was the, uh, Toyota, well,
00:21:10Scion UTV concept.
00:21:12Yeah.
00:21:12The Scion 01.
00:21:14Is that what it's called?
00:21:15Something like that?
00:21:15Yeah, I think so.
00:21:16Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:17Hold on.
00:21:17I got it pulled up right here.
00:21:18The, the, uh, Scion 01.
00:21:21Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:21It's supposed to, supposedly has 350 horsepower, which is, would be the most powerful side-by-side
00:21:29in the world.
00:21:29You know, for the past, what, five years, we've constantly had new, uh, horsepower kings.
00:21:34We had the, the Pro R, the Mav R. The Mav R stayed there for like a year until the
00:21:39H2, uh, debuted.
00:21:41So we're sitting at, what, 250 right now?
00:21:45Yeah, 250 for the H2.
00:21:47I mean, so it, it, it jumps up by a hundred.
00:21:50That's.
00:21:50By a hundred.
00:21:50And it has a crazy amount of torque too.
00:21:52It's like 475 pound feet of torque or something like that because it has electric motors, right?
00:21:59Because it's a hybrid.
00:21:59455 pound feet of torque at, uh, peak torque at 2400 RPM, which is, uh, surprisingly low for
00:22:05a side-by-side, which, what was, did they ever say what the actual engine was in it?
00:22:11Yes, it's out of, uh, Tacoma.
00:22:12Oh, really?
00:22:14The V6?
00:22:15The four-cylinder hybrid system out of Tacoma.
00:22:19Not as exciting, but still exciting.
00:22:21Yeah.
00:22:22I mean, it's, uh, it's cool to see, you know, for me to see somebody like Toyota be into it
00:22:28because Toyota doesn't have a power sports group.
00:22:30And then all of a sudden they're like, Hey, look at this thing we built.
00:22:33Yeah.
00:22:33You figured this would come from like Honda or something, or, you know, even Suzuki.
00:22:38Uh, yeah.
00:22:39But, uh, speaking of Suzuki, like they're still not in the power sports world or in the side-by-side
00:22:44world.
00:22:45Um, you guys better hurry up on that because we've been waiting anyway.
00:22:50Yeah.
00:22:50Suzuki, do something.
00:22:52Yeah.
00:22:52And, uh, the, the Toyota side-by-side kind of brings normal automakers into the side-by-side
00:22:59world.
00:23:00You know, we've heard stuff from Ford talking about side-by-sides and, uh, it just, I think
00:23:05it goes to show how big of a growth segment side-by-sides are that they're actually approaching
00:23:11the automotive world.
00:23:12Mm-hmm.
00:23:13Yeah.
00:23:13I mean, uh, I would say that UTVs have kept power sports in general alive for a long time.
00:23:22Yeah.
00:23:22It has been the, where all the money comes from.
00:23:26Mm-hmm.
00:23:27Um, and I think that still continues to be the case.
00:23:30Maybe a little bit less so now, but, you know, without UTVs, man, where would we be right
00:23:37now?
00:23:37Yeah.
00:23:38The whole thing about UTVs is that most of them could be a tax write-off.
00:23:42What was that, Anders?
00:23:44So, are you saying that UTVs are saving the world for power sports?
00:23:48They are saving our world, yes.
00:23:50Wow.
00:23:51Bold words from Justin Dawes.
00:23:53That's, that's, uh...
00:23:54I will, I will say they're not saving.
00:23:56They have saved.
00:23:57Wow.
00:23:58Even bolder.
00:23:59That's going to be the headline of this video, dude.
00:24:01Yeah.
00:24:01They have, they have saved power sports.
00:24:03Absolutely.
00:24:04100%.
00:24:04I mean, I remember, oh man, this was a while ago.
00:24:09So, probably 2014, so 10 years ago, 12 years ago, whatever, you know, Polaris was making
00:24:18a million ProStar engines a year for all of their things, whether that be ATV, UTV.
00:24:27That's a million units that people were buying.
00:24:29Like, that's, that's impressive.
00:24:32Right?
00:24:33That is wild.
00:24:34Yeah.
00:24:34And, and, you know, now, what, Honda just hit their, is it 400,000 UTV?
00:24:41Oh, I like it, yeah.
00:24:42I just did an article on this.
00:24:43This is embarrassing that I don't know.
00:24:45I edited the article.
00:24:47It's like, no, no, it's, it's their facility in, in South Carolina.
00:24:50And, and, they just came out with, it's a huge number.
00:24:53I'm going to say 5 billion, but that's clearly incorrect.
00:24:56So, it's probably closer to, I feel like it was like 5 million total.
00:25:03I want to say it's 5 million too.
00:25:05And, I don't want to interrupt, like, what we're doing by, like, looking forward at my
00:25:08screen and double checking.
00:25:10So, we're just going to say 5 million because that's about right.
00:25:13Either way, it's a huge number.
00:25:14In between 5 and 5 million.
00:25:16From a manufacturer that isn't even one of the main manufacturers.
00:25:21Like, when you think of side-by-sides, you're, you're Can-Am and Polaris.
00:25:24Honda is off in the distance somewhere doing their own thing.
00:25:27So, when they say we've made this astronomical number of side-by-sides since whenever, like,
00:25:33that's, that's impressive.
00:25:35Yeah.
00:25:36And, yeah, it's funny going back to what we were talking about it before about, you
00:25:39know, you wanting, wondering if other players would ever enter the space like Suzuki or
00:25:43whatever, you know, Honda's been such a mainstay, you know, and besides the talent and some
00:25:49other things, you know, I mean, they certainly, you know, I think they're happy to occupy their
00:25:54segment with, you know, Pioneers and stuff that's pretty, you know, sort of more utility-based.
00:26:01Very much so.
00:26:02So, um, where I reside most of the year, um, in Costa Rica, Pioneers are, like, the tourist
00:26:12ride along the beach towns, like, you know, they rent those things out and people drive
00:26:18those Pioneers everywhere.
00:26:20So, there's a place for Pioneers for sure.
00:26:22Yeah.
00:26:23Yeah.
00:26:23I always wondered because, you know, I, I'm not to hate on Honda or anything.
00:26:28Honda's great, but the Pioneer is a little bit lacking compared to other RecUte, uh, side-by-sides.
00:26:34So, I've always kind of wondered, like, where it exactly fits in.
00:26:37And as a people hauler, you know, the, the 1005 and the 1006, like, that makes perfect sense.
00:26:43Yeah.
00:26:44As people haulers, they're great.
00:26:45And so that's, you know, they, you can fit a family of whatever, four or five in, in those
00:26:50things, and you just see tourists just loaded up in their flip-flops and swim trunks off to
00:26:57the beach all the time and those things.
00:26:59That's hilarious.
00:27:00And, and they, they, you know, if you're a rental company, why, you, of course, you're
00:27:05buying a Honda because it's going to last forever.
00:27:07Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:08You don't have a, you don't have a belt to burn up in the thing.
00:27:11You don't have, you know, all those consumables that are maintenance intensive.
00:27:17If the thing was running day in and day out by people that had no clue what they were
00:27:22doing.
00:27:23Yeah.
00:27:23See the, the main rental unit we see here is the, uh, what is it?
00:27:28The Yamaha X2, uh, the Yamaha X2 and the Armax.
00:27:32And I think that's mainly because of the 10 year belt warranty, but like, I'm guessing that
00:27:37they have those because they're actually capable rigs, right?
00:27:40Like you can take them out onto a trail and do just about anything you want to do.
00:27:44But that obviously doesn't really make sense in a place like Costa Rica, where people are
00:27:49going up and down beaches.
00:27:50Like they literally just want something that's cheap, that will last 10 ish years and will
00:27:56get people from place A to place B.
00:27:59Yeah.
00:27:59You suddenly, you suddenly revealed the mystery, the mystery locale of Mr. Dawes there.
00:28:05Yeah.
00:28:08If you want to keep your, uh, privacy.
00:28:11No, no, it's, it's a, it's no longer a well-kept secret that I don't live in the United States
00:28:16most of the time.
00:28:17And I telecommute.
00:28:19So everyone stay out of Costa Rica.
00:28:22It's terrible.
00:28:23It's the worst way to go.
00:28:25Um, don't come there and buy things and buy property.
00:28:29Um, there's volcanoes and lava everywhere.
00:28:32It's very, there's volcanoes, there's animals.
00:28:35Um, and it all wants to kill you.
00:28:37So just stay home, please.
00:28:39Just go to Puerto Rico instead.
00:28:41It's way easier.
00:28:42That's right.
00:28:42You know how many people think I live in Puerto Rico when I tell them I live in Costa Rica?
00:28:46It's hilarious.
00:28:46I'm going to be honest.
00:28:47I've gotten it wrong like five times every time.
00:28:49Like where does those live?
00:28:50I'm like, Puerto Rico.
00:28:51It's like, no, that's not right.
00:28:53Yeah.
00:28:53The funniest one is you say, yeah, I live in Costa Rica.
00:28:55They're like, ah, Island time.
00:28:57And I'm like, not an Island.
00:29:00You got to blame public schools on that.
00:29:02Like, listen, we're not geography experts.
00:29:06Yeah.
00:29:07But that's right.
00:29:09So speaking of, you know, Toyota UTVs, they're, they're getting bigger.
00:29:13They're getting more impressive.
00:29:15Um, they're also getting more, uh, road legal, um, as, as for us in Tennessee, you have to register them.
00:29:22Um, you can't take them on any state highways.
00:29:24You can only take them on like two lane roads.
00:29:26Um, but in states like Utah or in, uh, North Carolina, you can register them and keep them as cars,
00:29:36basically as commuters.
00:29:37And that's about to happen in Florida too.
00:29:39At least we think it's about to happen.
00:29:41They've, uh, Florida lawmakers have introduced legislation to, uh, make UTVs road legal and, and make them into commuter cars.
00:29:50And, you know, we think that's, uh, that's great.
00:29:54Uh, you know, the manufacturers might disagree a little bit with us, but, uh.
00:29:59Which surprises me, um, in a way, but I understand they're trying to, they're trying to avoid the ATC debacle
00:30:09still.
00:30:10I mean, even though that was 40 years ago, they have long memories and they're like, so they're trying to,
00:30:18you know, fight backlash, fight, you know, CPSC type stuff that could arise, that could come up in the future.
00:30:29So I, I don't blame them for opposing it, but what, it's like 20, 20 something states, I think, allow
00:30:36some form of street legality in, in UTVs.
00:30:41So, um, you know.
00:30:45Places like West Virginia.
00:30:46Go ahead, Andrews.
00:30:48Oh, it's a funny thing.
00:30:48Yeah.
00:30:49And like in the, in the case of Florida, uh, I believe that, uh, there's, they're debating legislation.
00:30:54Uh, guys in suits in a big, tall building are deciding what they want, what they do or don't want
00:30:59to do.
00:30:59Uh, but Honda, I believe weighed in and said that they were opposed to the idea of, uh, of, of,
00:31:06I think kind of decriminalizing, legalizing, I don't know, whatever, whatever fancy term you want to use.
00:31:11They basically came out against and said, it's not a good idea to let UTVs on public roads, which I
00:31:15think is interesting.
00:31:16And that's a very Honda perspective to have, I think.
00:31:17Yeah, well, I mean, it's, a lot of the UTVs, like, there's a, they usually have a live air axle
00:31:27or a, they don't have a, a rear diff, right?
00:31:30So, handling on the road, on asphalt is compromised.
00:31:35So, I can understand their position.
00:31:37Unless you have a utility side-by-side that has a car.
00:31:38Yes, unless you have a utility side-by-side.
00:31:41It's locked all the time.
00:31:41Exactly.
00:31:42Um, but, you know, are people, uh, there's probably some people there.
00:31:47A buying utility or a sport utility, but there's a lot of people that are throwing, you know, all the
00:31:54R's on the road.
00:31:56And the things are going around corners going, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
00:31:58Because, you know, it's a culture.
00:32:00Your tires are barking.
00:32:01Yeah.
00:32:02Like, in West Virginia, specifically, uh, Logan, West Virginia, where, uh, Hatfield-McCoy trails are, that is straight up a
00:32:09UTV town.
00:32:10People just buy UTVs to get around.
00:32:13Like, that is their main car.
00:32:14And, uh, you know, it starts to make sense a little bit.
00:32:19I, I'm personally opposed to it because I live in Knoxville, Tennessee, where I have to actually take roads to
00:32:25get places and can't just go up a mountain.
00:32:27But, uh, you know, it, it starts to make sense for small rural towns like that.
00:32:33Yeah, I think so.
00:32:34Um, you know, that, like, I'm familiar from the West Coast side of things, Utah, um, in Arizona and Utah
00:32:42specifically.
00:32:43Like, you can drive them.
00:32:46You can't drive them on the highway.
00:32:48And they, they are nice to be able to go from small town to small town or be used locally.
00:32:55Kind of makes sense.
00:32:57Um, but Florida, like, there's not a, I mean, there's, there's off-roading in Florida, but there's not a ton
00:33:04of off-roading in Florida.
00:33:06So, for me, for Florida, it does not make sense.
00:33:09You have to make it, like, a destination in Florida to go off-roading.
00:33:12Yeah, I mean, you could go to, like, uh, what, what's that off-road park?
00:33:16I think it's called Kroom.
00:33:17Like, there's, there's some off-road parks that are big.
00:33:20You could go there in the Ocala National Forest.
00:33:22We went there one time.
00:33:22That was absolutely beautiful.
00:33:24But still.
00:33:26But it's not, like, great expanses of Utah, right?
00:33:31Where you can literally just go off the road and, you know, be in BLM land.
00:33:35Yeah, exactly.
00:33:37So, but, I mean, there was even pushback in, in Utah for a while, like, in Moab.
00:33:42You know, everyone was driving their UTVs in Moab.
00:33:48And it became the, the town annoyance.
00:33:53Because everyone had their stereos blaring and their lights going and, you know, big loud tires and their speeding.
00:34:01And, like, they were getting ready to ban UTVs specifically in Moab.
00:34:07Not Jeeps, not rock crawlers, but UTVs.
00:34:11Wow.
00:34:11Really?
00:34:12Okay.
00:34:12Yeah, because we were, you know, we were being the a-holes in town.
00:34:17Yeah.
00:34:18It doesn't help, but, like, cruising speed, you're sitting at 45, 5,500 RPM.
00:34:23So.
00:34:23Exactly.
00:34:24Yeah.
00:34:24You're going down the road and just hear.
00:34:27Yeah, you take off from every light and the thing just jumps in RPMs.
00:34:30It's not like a Jeep where they leave the light and you don't even hear the engine, you know.
00:34:35Yeah.
00:34:36So, is it kind of a little, like, Caddyshack with Rodney Dangerfield when he joins the golf club?
00:34:41Like, the UTVs, like, were just kind of, you know.
00:34:44Or, like, snowboarders back in the day.
00:34:46Kind of like, you know, the brash young upstarts.
00:34:48Yeah.
00:34:49I would say, yeah, more like Ronnie Dangerfield than the snowboarders.
00:34:54You know, a bit more annoying, a bit more look at me.
00:34:57You know, I always think of Rodney's big golf bag with the stereo and stuff in it.
00:35:02Oh, my God, it's totally us.
00:35:05Exactly.
00:35:06We're being subtle.
00:35:07No.
00:35:08So.
00:35:09And that's the problem sometimes is, especially in a place like Moab, because you have such a mixture of
00:35:18outdoor enthusiasts.
00:35:19You've got off-roaders.
00:35:21You've got mountain bikers.
00:35:22You've got hikers.
00:35:23You've got equestrians.
00:35:25And then you just have, you know, people that want to shut all of it down because it's beautiful
00:35:30and it shouldn't be tread on.
00:35:32All those people are in the town all together at the same time.
00:35:37And mostly they make it work.
00:35:39But then we come in, you know, bumping, you know, your country wrap at 100 decibels.
00:35:48Yeah.
00:35:48And they go, OK, those are the people that we don't want.
00:35:51Yeah.
00:35:52And then from there, it's kind of just a slippery slope.
00:35:55Exactly.
00:35:55It's like, OK, well, if you don't want those off-roaders, then why not get rid of Jeeps?
00:35:59And why not get rid of this?
00:36:00Get rid of Jeeps.
00:36:00Get rid of motorcycles.
00:36:01You know what?
00:36:02Like, the mountain bike shouldn't be there because they have tires on them.
00:36:06Well, OK, horses make ruts.
00:36:08They can go, too.
00:36:11Yeah.
00:36:11It's got to be kind of complicated, you know, in terms of, like, you know, everybody wants
00:36:15access to the space.
00:36:17And, you know, like, we, you know, we're different.
00:36:21You know, all of us are part of, I don't know.
00:36:25Like, we're kind of the adults in the room a little bit, kind of, in terms of power sports.
00:36:30We have to be because that's just our job, whatever.
00:36:33So we all kind of have to sort of balance needs.
00:36:36And I do get it.
00:36:37Listen, America is a big country.
00:36:39There's lots of land.
00:36:40It really shouldn't be a problem to make ruts everywhere.
00:36:42But there are probably places.
00:36:44I mean, there's definitely places where, you know what?
00:36:46Like, maybe that's not the great place to send your Mav-R down, you know, that grass.
00:36:52Yeah, exactly.
00:36:53Like, it's pants and whatnot.
00:36:54No, I agree.
00:36:57And like you said, we are the adults in the group.
00:37:00But it's human nature.
00:37:02Like, when you get strapped into something that has so much power and so much ability to,
00:37:09your inner jackass comes out.
00:37:11You can't help it.
00:37:12It's human nature, right?
00:37:14Some people are better at controlling it than others.
00:37:17More people are sensible.
00:37:18But there are people that have very low impulse control.
00:37:22And those are the ones that ruin it for everybody.
00:37:25Yeah, that's funny.
00:37:26Speaking of people with impulse, lack of impulse control in public roads or whatever,
00:37:31the first time I saw a UTV and understood what a side-by-side was, was in Wisconsin.
00:37:38We were in a little tiny town called Bagley.
00:37:40And it's a really great little town.
00:37:42And everyone just rode them around the town to go to various establishments for refreshments.
00:37:49And a popular, and I probably shouldn't say this, but the popular reason why people love
00:37:54side-by-sides was because they're fun and they're great.
00:37:57But also because some of these people had exhausted legal possibilities for driving cars.
00:38:04So they had to UTVs.
00:38:07Not recommending that.
00:38:09I'm not saying that's good.
00:38:10I'm just saying that's...
00:38:11Well, it also brings up a bigger problem with some parts of side-by-side culture.
00:38:16You know, we go to Winrock Park once a week.
00:38:20And every time we go, we see Miller cans off in the woods or fireball shooters.
00:38:26And, you know, Winrock does the best they can.
00:38:29They check coolers and everything.
00:38:31But, you know, especially at this time of year where you're bundled up, you can sneak
00:38:35alcohol just about wherever you can, it becomes a problem.
00:38:40And it's not just littering in our parks or in our national parks or Winrock or wherever.
00:38:47It's also the main reason you're driving a motor vehicle while under the influence.
00:38:53Yeah.
00:38:53Very much so.
00:38:54It allows, I want to say, children as young as 16.
00:38:5914 or 16.
00:39:00I can't remember the exact age.
00:39:01I know all the manufacturers say 16, but Winrock may do 14.
00:39:05So you have adults who are under the influence on the same trails as kids, basically.
00:39:12And it gets to be dangerous.
00:39:15Yeah.
00:39:16And, you know, to be the contrarian, that's just human condition, too, that humans in general
00:39:25are litter bugs.
00:39:27They like to booze it up.
00:39:28You could say the same thing probably about people in Jeep culture or truck culture or mud
00:39:34bogging culture.
00:39:35Like, you know, it just seems like it's just hard to get people to stop being human beings
00:39:44and knock out the bad behavior that comes ingrained with our lizard brains.
00:39:52You know what I mean?
00:39:53That's true.
00:39:54If there is, and there is no official UTV driver line on all this, but if I had to make
00:39:58one up right now, I would say that you should save the refreshments for afterwards, and then
00:40:04you can, like, properly celebrate, like, I cheated death on the trails.
00:40:08I'm having a beer or something.
00:40:10No, I totally agree with that.
00:40:11That first beer after I rolled my first side-by-side, that was probably the best drink I ever had.
00:40:18And that's a UTV driver trademark to roll a side-by-side or first or second time out.
00:40:24I did that, too, and the beer I had afterwards was also really delicious, so.
00:40:28There you go.
00:40:30We could, how could we come up with a nice public service announcement slogan?
00:40:36Oh, we're creative sorts.
00:40:38We could totally come up with some sort of, like, we'd have to workshop this, but we could
00:40:43come up with something fun, I think.
00:40:45Yeah.
00:40:45UTV driver, drink after, not before.
00:40:47That's right.
00:40:48Yeah, something like that, yeah.
00:40:50So, yeah, you rolled your first side-by-side in 2025.
00:40:53Some other exciting news that came out in 2025, we got the H2, we got an all-new Ranger.
00:41:01Am I missing anything?
00:41:02What else was there?
00:41:04Oh, man, we got a new Defender.
00:41:07Did you say that already?
00:41:09I said a Ranger.
00:41:10We got the Ranger 500.
00:41:11We got the Baby Ranger.
00:41:12You're right.
00:41:13We got the HD 11.
00:41:15Which is the new generation of Defender, which is a big deal.
00:41:19You know, the trusty Defender.
00:41:2113 more horsepower.
00:41:24More advanced engine.
00:41:26Yeah, there was actually quite a bit of stuff.
00:41:28I think, you know, it's kind of interesting.
00:41:29And I'm the contrarian among us.
00:41:31But as we talked about the industry getting bigger, you're starting to see players that previously were like, oh, yeah,
00:41:37that's the rig they sell outside of Lowe's or Home Depot's.
00:41:41But you're starting to see dealer networks come up for brands that people don't really think about when they come,
00:41:46like Massimo.
00:41:46Yeah, I feel like I get, I see Massimo news, like, every other day.
00:41:50You know, I'm the industry news guy.
00:41:52I'm always just like, oh, that's really interesting.
00:41:54Nerf, you know.
00:41:56He's, like, Gage is the performance guy.
00:41:59I'm like, oh, that's really interesting.
00:42:01Did you see, like, 14% increase in sales this year, you know.
00:42:04Yeah, yeah.
00:42:04Oh, who cares?
00:42:05This thing has 250 horsepower.
00:42:07Right.
00:42:08I think that's kind of a big story in 2025, just seeing sort of smaller makes and more sort of
00:42:13niche makers kind of start to expand their dealer network and to kind of get more presence in the power
00:42:20sports space.
00:42:20Yeah, I was at AIM Expo last week, and there was all kinds of small companies that I had never
00:42:29heard of that were, you know, showing off UTVs.
00:42:35A lot of them electric, which was interesting.
00:42:37That's exciting.
00:42:38We're actually, actually, by the time this podcast is out, our 10 best of 2025 should be out.
00:42:44And, you know, we have a segment in there for the best electric side-by-side.
00:42:49And right now, the only one from a major manufacturer is the Ranger Kinetic.
00:42:55And so seeing more electric side-by-sides come out is so exciting, mainly because of how much I actually
00:43:01love the Ranger Kinetic.
00:43:03Yeah.
00:43:04The ones that most of them that we saw are very Ranger-like, you know, the very upright seating position,
00:43:11big bed, working, you know, staying close to the farm type of stuff.
00:43:15But the one that got me the most excited, which I sent you guys a photo and some press contacts,
00:43:24was the Vanderhall Brawley.
00:43:28That thing is crazy.
00:43:30You know, it's 400 horsepower electric, full cab, AC, windows that roll up, super awesome.
00:43:41Crab, you know, four-wheel steering, you can crab walk the thing, all these things.
00:43:44It's very sporty.
00:43:45It's got, you know, 30 inches of suspension travel or something like that.
00:43:49Like, it's just this, you know, it's kind of on the other side of that Ranger thing, obviously.
00:43:56And, you know, that's kind of cool to me.
00:44:00Did they announce a range for it?
00:44:03He said, man, I'm trying to hop off my head.
00:44:06I think 70-something miles is kind of the thing.
00:44:10But it's got, you know, it's got fast charging and stuff.
00:44:14So I guess you could go from town to town somewhere and charge it.
00:44:18I don't know.
00:44:19Like, that's always going to be the issue, right?
00:44:22Yeah.
00:44:22It may be a longer range.
00:44:25Don't quote me on that because, I mean, it is the size of a car.
00:44:28So it should have the range of a car, you know, 150, 200 miles because, you know, but it is
00:44:35much lighter.
00:44:36So it's probably weighs less than that Cyan 01.
00:44:41You know, I think it's like 3,500 pounds.
00:44:43Which that's why, you know, utility electric side-by-sides work so well because the Kinetic has, if you get
00:44:50the ultimate edition, it has 80 miles of range.
00:44:52No one is going to do 80 miles of range on a farm.
00:44:56You know, you're going to do, you're going to go get down to maybe half a battery, plug it in
00:45:00at night.
00:45:01It's ready to go the next morning.
00:45:03That also saves you on all kinds of maintenance.
00:45:05You don't have to change oil.
00:45:07You don't, well, you have some cooling in there.
00:45:09But still, you have, like, one reservoir that you have to keep up with, and that's it as far as
00:45:14maintenance goes.
00:45:15Yeah.
00:45:17Funny, it's interesting.
00:45:18Like, I think one thing to definitely watch in 20, 26, I don't know, up to 20, 30, I guess,
00:45:24if you want, is, you know, for us in the UTV world, the idea of, like, a hybrid engine is
00:45:31totally feasible.
00:45:32You know, like, there's no real need to have, like, just, you know, the entire floorboard being basically a cover
00:45:38for giant, huge batteries.
00:45:40That's obviously not an option for motorcycles or whatever.
00:45:43It'll be interesting to see if hybrid power becomes a thing.
00:45:47I feel like the moto space is definitely kind of ahead of the UTV space in terms of EVs and
00:45:55whatever, you know.
00:45:57That's just, you know, anecdotal sort of stuff.
00:45:59But it'll be interesting to see, like, you know, I feel like the UTV space has been kind of slow
00:46:05to embrace EVs.
00:46:08You know, we like to do a lot of EV stuff because it gets eyeballs.
00:46:11It gets people's attention.
00:46:13Whether you like it or not.
00:46:14Engagement, yeah.
00:46:15You know, you prick up your ears and you're like, oh, that's cool.
00:46:17You know, the Brawley or, you know, the Kinetic or whatever.
00:46:22But I don't know.
00:46:23It's sort of interesting.
00:46:24So, from a motorcycle perspective, do you, like, how, like, I think the UTV space is sort of lagging behind
00:46:30or whatever.
00:46:31It seems like, to me, the motor space, it's doing better and there's more adoption.
00:46:36Do you think that's true or not?
00:46:38There's definitely more models.
00:46:43Absolutely, there's more development.
00:46:46But you still have the packaging issue.
00:46:48So, I mean, every single rad electric motorcycle comes out still only has a range of 100 miles max or
00:46:59something, right?
00:47:00So, they're great for around town and all that kind of stuff.
00:47:05You know, like, the Stark Vargs are super sick.
00:47:07Like, they are the most powerful, fastest dirt bikes.
00:47:10You can get your hands on.
00:47:12And they're amazing.
00:47:13They handle great.
00:47:14They do all the things, which is super rad.
00:47:18But, to me, UTV space, like, you're right.
00:47:22It is lagging massively because it's so – you have four wheels and you have so much more space for
00:47:28batteries.
00:47:29Why isn't it being widely utilized more, you know, than it is?
00:47:37Like you said, like, you know, you've got the Ranger and Kinetic and what else?
00:47:42Okay, you've got the Brawley and now you've got – Volcon's got one and, you know, all these other –
00:47:48Landmaster, Landmaster, another one.
00:47:52But those are, you know, mostly, like, utility, very kind of, like, work-focused stuff.
00:47:56Yeah.
00:47:57So, you know, yeah, why not?
00:48:01I don't understand it, especially for work applications.
00:48:07But even for some sport applications, like, in reality, there's a lot of people that only drive their UTVs 50
00:48:16miles in a day, right?
00:48:17If you go to Windrock, how many miles are you really covering in a day?
00:48:21I mean, we did a calculation one time and I think it was the loop of Trail 2.
00:48:28And I think it was, like, maybe 10 miles if you went and did another trail off of Trail 2.
00:48:36And, you know, we go fast because we know the trails and we just – that's how we test side
00:48:42-by-sides.
00:48:43But, you know, some people at Windrock, they're going 5 to 10 miles an hour the entire time.
00:48:49So a trail that takes us 20 minutes to do might take someone an hour or two hours to do.
00:48:55And you're doing the same amount of time.
00:48:56You have the same range and you're not – you're also not losing as much battery because you're not absolutely
00:49:03ragging on the thing.
00:49:04Yeah, you don't have a constant load on the thing.
00:49:06So, you know, I think it still makes sense for off-roading in some places.
00:49:13And so I don't understand why there's not more other than maybe laziness because they are selling the heck out
00:49:24of anything that's powered by gasoline.
00:49:26So why waste the time and the effort when we could build another faster, gnarlier thing to trump the other
00:49:34thing to get everyone to trade in their units and buy new units, you know?
00:49:38Yeah, it's the Kawasaki way.
00:49:40Yeah.
00:49:41It might be just the thought that it's sort of a fool's errand to be, like, the first messenger, the
00:49:45one who's like, hey, guys, man, EV is great.
00:49:48And it's like you can have all these facts in your pocket.
00:49:50You can be like, you know what, the average rider, your session – and it's a session thing.
00:49:54With the Stark Varg, it's totally fine for, like, one session, one and a half sessions, recharge.
00:50:00Boom, you're done.
00:50:01It's not a mileage thing.
00:50:02And for us, it's kind of the same thing, you know?
00:50:04It's like it's probably going to be totally fine for a day of riding.
00:50:09But, you know, it doesn't really matter because psychologically everyone thinks, like, oh, well, you know, gas is everywhere.
00:50:14You have gas cans or whatever.
00:50:16Like, what if you're out there and you get stuck?
00:50:17But when you look at all the numbers, you know, there's really no reason not to be in an electric
00:50:23rig, especially, like, the slower and the worse of a driver you are, the better EV is for you, the
00:50:29longer the battery lasts.
00:50:30But it is kind of a fool's errand to be like, hey, guys, listen to this.
00:50:33Check this out.
00:50:34And it's like, no, we're already doing really well and selling lots of rigs that are ICE, and everyone likes
00:50:40those.
00:50:40And so, like, let's not upset the Apple cards.
00:50:42Yeah, let's just concentrate on what's making us a lot of money right now.
00:50:47And, you know, product managers aren't stupid, and they do their research, and they probably have forecasted that, you know,
00:50:57they're still going to be making a lot of money in five years on internal combustion engines.
00:51:02And electric just doesn't move the needle for them, so they don't do it, I guess, you know.
00:51:08Yeah.
00:51:09But, you know, I think, like, an electric is probably a great rock crawler, would be my thoughts.
00:51:16Yeah, on all that torque.
00:51:18Mm-hmm.
00:51:19Oh, my God, that torque changes.
00:51:21I mean, it changes the equation of, like, you know, half our time we're sitting worrying about, like, you know,
00:51:26front diffs, rear diffs, and all sorts of other stuff.
00:51:28You just have four independent motors for each wheel that can sense and sense wheel slip and all sorts of
00:51:35other stuff.
00:51:36Yeah, find traction when there is none, yeah.
00:51:39So, yeah.
00:51:42Yeah, when we're talking about exciting things that happened in 2025, the other exciting thing, it's kind of a personal
00:51:49thing, or I should say for my dad, he finally got his Speed UTV.
00:51:55No way.
00:51:56I didn't even know that was happening.
00:51:59Really?
00:51:59He finally got it about three months ago.
00:52:02I feel like Speed UTVs are kind of a myth at this point, where it's like, if you see one
00:52:06in the wild, it's like a unicorn, where you have to, like, leave it alone and don't mess with it,
00:52:10or else you'll have bad luck forever.
00:52:12Exactly, yeah.
00:52:13So, he finally got his.
00:52:15So, I would say that, like, Todd Romano and Robbie Gordon are possibly making good on their, you know.
00:52:26When did he put in his order for it?
00:52:28Oh, man, like, 1972?
00:52:33I don't know.
00:52:392000, man, I want to say 2021 or 22.
00:52:42Yeah, geez.
00:52:43You know, four years ago, maybe?
00:52:45Yeah.
00:52:46I think his car number was, like, 13-something.
00:52:51Fantastic.
00:52:52Don't quote me on that, but, you know, it seems.
00:52:58I vacillate, I still kind of vacillate on whether or not they were going to, that Speed was going to
00:53:07make it or not, you know, because you didn't see deliveries happening when they said they would and all that
00:53:12kind of stuff.
00:53:13And, hey, it's hard to get a big UTV company off the ground and do it the way that they
00:53:20want to do it and all that stuff.
00:53:24I mean, it's the same reason every other new UTV startup isn't as big as Polaris and Yamaha and K
00:53:30&M.
00:53:31Exactly.
00:53:31Because everything else started in the 70s and 80s when you could just slap a motor onto something.
00:53:36Yeah.
00:53:36And I think maybe they jumped the gun a bit on taking pre-orders and getting people hyped because they
00:53:46ended up getting a lot of animosity because they – it was so drawn out.
00:53:51You know, and it wasn't supposed to be that drawn out.
00:53:54So people are like, oh, it's a scam and Robbie is ripping people off and, you know, all those things.
00:54:01And I think it definitely probably felt like that for a lot of people.
00:54:05I know it did for my dad.
00:54:06Like, there was a point where he wanted his money back.
00:54:09He was just like, I give up, you know.
00:54:11The big bold letters that says non-refundable on the deposit on the website.
00:54:15It's like that, you know, that turns away a lot of people.
00:54:17Yeah, exactly.
00:54:19And so he, you know, he stuck with it, I guess.
00:54:23He got it.
00:54:24He loves it now.
00:54:25He thinks it's great.
00:54:26I have not gotten to drive it yet.
00:54:28I don't know if he's going to let me drive it the way that I treat UTVs.
00:54:33He may not let me get behind the wheel ever on that thing.
00:54:38Hey, man, if you want to write up a review for UTV Driver.
00:54:40Yeah, he's very happy with it.
00:54:43So to me, I guess that's all that matters is that my pops is stoked.
00:54:49You know, he's 76 years old, and he's still ripping dirt bikes and still riding UTVs,
00:54:55and he likes things that are nice and fast and cool, and he's pumped on it.
00:55:00That's awesome.
00:55:01I mean, as long as the consumer is happy, that's all that matters.
00:55:05And it's in his hands even after four years.
00:55:08But, you know, he has it, and he loves it, and I guess that's all that matters,
00:55:12and that's a testament to Robbie Gordon and what he's actually building.
00:55:18Yeah.
00:55:18I mean, you look at it.
00:55:20I saw they had a booth at AIM, or I should say a display at AIM,
00:55:23and they had an El Jefe, El Diablo, and what's the smallest one?
00:55:30I can't remember.
00:55:30El Jefe, El Diablo, and I can't even think of it right now.
00:55:36Yeah.
00:55:36The El something, obviously.
00:55:38Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:55:40And, I mean, they do have a presence.
00:55:43You walk up to them, and you're like, whoa, these things are pretty cool looking,
00:55:47and they're nice, and all that stuff.
00:55:49So the El Jefe is gigantic.
00:55:53It looks like it's just a trophy truck.
00:55:55That's the four-door one, is that right?
00:55:55Four-door, yeah.
00:55:56Yeah.
00:55:57That's like the Robbie Gordon special one.
00:55:59Mm-hmm.
00:56:00Yeah.
00:56:01Okay, that's Spanish for boss, is that correct?
00:56:04Yeah, the boss, yeah.
00:56:05El Jefe.
00:56:05El Jefe.
00:56:07Gotcha.
00:56:08So that's kind of cool.
00:56:09So your 2025, positive year-end review.
00:56:12Your dad got a speed UTV.
00:56:15My dad got to actually.
00:56:16That's really positive.
00:56:18It was a really positive year, 2025.
00:56:20Oh, yeah.
00:56:20I think there's lots of cool stuff.
00:56:23I almost demonetized this whole thing, right?
00:56:25It's past 15 minutes.
00:56:27It doesn't matter.
00:56:28I'm kind of sad that 2025 is gone, because we've got so many new rigs that you sort of wonder.
00:56:33You know, and the product cycle in our world is like, new rig, and then five years will
00:56:39go by.
00:56:40And all they're going to do is change trim and very minor stuff.
00:56:43So we're not going to.
00:56:43I wonder, I fear that 2026 might not be as exciting as 2025.
00:56:50I mean, it's already off to a good start.
00:56:52The Ranger 500, the H2, the Mavar RC, which now has the biggest tires currently available
00:57:01on a UTV with 35s.
00:57:03Well, on a stock UTV.
00:57:04Stock UTV.
00:57:05Yeah, 35s, man.
00:57:06Like, that's huge.
00:57:08Those are big, big tires.
00:57:09The H2 held that title for all but, like, two seconds, because they had 33s.
00:57:15That was up from the Mavar's 32s and the Pro-Ars 32s, I think.
00:57:19And it was like, yeah, we have the biggest tires available on a UTV from the factory.
00:57:24And then Can-Am came in and was like, no, I'm sorry, guys.
00:57:27Yeah, yeah.
00:57:29Yeah.
00:57:31I really want to drive the H2.
00:57:34Hey, man.
00:57:36You know where we're at.
00:57:37You got our address.
00:57:39Yeah, or get one and come out here.
00:57:41It's always open.
00:57:42California.
00:57:43Come out to California's office.
00:57:44We'll go to Grand The City.
00:57:46Everybody goes to California.
00:57:47Maybe California should come to us.
00:57:49You know, you guys have visitors all the time.
00:57:52Tennessee, East Tennessee.
00:57:53I will say it's a little bit cheaper to fly one person out to Tennessee than to get two
00:57:58people and an H2 to California.
00:58:00Very true.
00:58:01Very true.
00:58:02That is true.
00:58:04But do you have gigantic sand dunes that you can send it off of?
00:58:07No, we don't have those.
00:58:08We have a bunch of dirt and really gross mud.
00:58:12What's that, Anders?
00:58:13We have giant cliffs that you can send the UTVs off of.
00:58:16Yeah, very much so.
00:58:17I mean, I really enjoy rocky, nasty stuff, too, and rock crawling and, you know, the preciseness
00:58:25that that requires to, like, put the tires where you need it, find the traction.
00:58:29Like, that's a whole different kind of fun that, you know, a lot of people on the West
00:58:34Coast don't get because they want to just put their foot to the floor and bash the whoops
00:58:41or coast and dunes, and they go, oh, that's got to be boring, and it's not.
00:58:46It's so cool.
00:58:47I grew up doing that kind of stuff, you know?
00:58:49I grew up off-roading a trail a mile from Windrock where it's like, okay, is my really,
00:58:55really bad 1998 Jeep Wrangler going to get up this on, like, street tires, you know?
00:59:01And then I went out to California and I drove the Pro-R out there.
00:59:08I've driven the H2 out there, and it's just like, okay, here is a giant washout.
00:59:14Just plant your foot and go, dude.
00:59:17And it's different.
00:59:18And I don't know.
00:59:20I want to say that the East Coast stuff requires more skill, but I think I'm biased.
00:59:26I think they're different skills.
00:59:27I think the East Coast stuff, you have to really be cerebral in the fact that, like you said,
00:59:35you need to find the right line, put your vehicle right where it needs to be, you know,
00:59:40and really work on the technical point where the cerebral part of going fast out West is looking ahead,
00:59:51thinking about consequences, thinking about momentum.
00:59:56And that's the difference, I think.
00:59:58Yeah.
00:59:58I think they both are different skill sets.
01:00:00I think they're both exciting and fun, just in different ways.
01:00:06So I guess I'm saying that UTVs are fun no matter where you're at.
01:00:10Yeah.
01:00:11Oh, yeah, absolutely.
01:00:12For the most part.
01:00:12I will say that, and I don't know this for certain, but I believe in California and in other states,
01:00:19if you see a waterfall, you're not allowed to drive through that because that's a waterfall.
01:00:24And you should, you know, here in Tennessee, you can drive through a waterfall.
01:00:28There's one right at Windrock if you want.
01:00:31So we take a little lighter approach to nature.
01:00:35There's a lot more water out where you're at, too.
01:00:37That's the problem.
01:00:38Well, that's true, I guess.
01:00:40But, you know, just saying here, absolutely, like, drive through that waterfall if you want, man.
01:00:45It's up to you.
01:00:46Freedom and responsibility, you know.
01:00:49Yeah, I'm down with that.
01:00:52All right.
01:00:52I think with that, that kind of is time.
01:00:55We're at an hour right now.
01:00:56So unless we have anything else.
01:00:59No, man.
01:01:01From the boss of a motorcycle magazine, I dig UTVs.
01:01:06I think they're cool.
01:01:07I think everyone should try one.
01:01:10If you're a motorcycle person, go drive one.
01:01:13You'll be surprised.
01:01:14You'll have a lot of fun.
01:01:17Yeah, I feel like every time I introduce someone who's never been in a UTV to UTVs,
01:01:22you get them in, and you're like, yeah, just point it where you want to go, and it'll go.
01:01:27And then their eyes light up, and that's the end of it.
01:01:31But I brought my buddy out one time who, and I know I'm rambling and we're out of time,
01:01:36but I brought my buddy out one time in a KRX, and he's into slammed cars and drifting and all
01:01:43that,
01:01:43and he didn't really understand what is the point of lifted stuff and stuff with high ground clearance.
01:01:51And I took him for like one lap in a KRX, and he was like, I get it now.
01:01:55I get it.
01:01:56Like, that's fun.
01:01:57I want one.
01:01:58So, yeah, you know, for anybody who's interested in it, take the plunge.
01:02:04If you like motorcycles, you'll like UTVs.
01:02:06Yeah, and if you hate something and having to get a special license to operate it, like UTVs,
01:02:12it's like you don't need any of that, like I said, freedom of responsibility.
01:02:16If you want to drive it on the road, you do.
01:02:18Yeah, you don't need one, but maybe some people should take some classes, right?
01:02:24Some people should take a lot of classes, but subject for another talk.
01:02:28Yeah, or you should do one about just getting smart about driving things and operating things.
01:02:33Hey, that's a solid video idea.
01:02:35Yeah, man, for sure.
01:02:37Anyway, this has been the UTV Driver Podcast.
01:02:39I am content editor Jackson Cooper, joined by editor Anders T. Carlson
01:02:43and executive editor of Cycle World, Justin Dawes.
01:02:47Thank you so much for watching, and we will see you on the trails.
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