00:00So we're here wrapping up a really eventful Munich Security Conference with
00:03the Foreign Minister of Estonia, Margus Tsakna. Mr. Tsakna, thank you very much
00:09for joining DW. Now Estonia of course is considered one of the most vulnerable
00:13members of NATO, you know, considering the scenarios that people worry about in
00:17the future, potential Russian attack, you know, testing NATO's responses. Do you
00:22feel reassured by what has happened this weekend, particularly the speech made by
00:27the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio, that many talk is a sign of reassurance?
00:32Actually, the story that Estonia is one of the most vulnerable country in Europe is
00:37a fake news. We know exactly what to do, we prepare for a Russian probable invasion
00:44and deterrence is really strong. And essentially what? I think what people see
00:48is that Estonia might be one of the first targets. Yeah, this is like a classical
00:52understanding about the invasion and if you see the map that it's very logical,
00:57critical. But in real life, what we do is that we are increasing heavily our
01:01capabilities. I think that NATO is stronger than ever before. We have new defense
01:06plans already since Vilnius and it means that we are not waiting. If Russia is coming
01:12to our territories and then we are fighting back, we will bring the war to Russia.
01:16These capabilities, it will be there. But what we are concerned is actually the political will.
01:22We are concerned about Europe, that if Europe is ready actually to make a decision,
01:27to stand up, to be stronger. And it was exactly the topic what we were talking here in Munich
01:31all these days. And as well, Secretary Rubio's speech, I think that it was exactly the same
01:37actually that Vice President Vance had a year ago. But the time has passed. We have witnessed
01:43during this year many crazy momentums, you know, Alaska meeting with Putin, Greenland pressure
01:50on Ukraine. And now just Secretary Rubio is more decent in the meaning of his language. But the message
01:56was the same that US needs stronger Europe and actually we need stronger Europe. And I think
02:02that this Munich conference showed as well that Europe is waking up.
02:08I mean, I found one comment really interesting by Elbridge Colby, so the American undersecretary
02:14of war, sort of seen as the thinker in the Pentagon, who said in an event with a European think
02:19tank, he said that a certain amount of anxiety in Europe is salutary. So suggesting that there
02:26had been almost too much reassurance from the United States in the past. Does that chime with you? Do you
02:31think it's good for Europe to be nervous? And do you see this as part of America's communication strategy,
02:35like intentionally to rattle European nerves? You know, from an Estonian perspective, we have been talking
02:42already maybe 20 years that Europe must do more. Europe must have more self-confidence. And Europe must use
02:49the leverages what we have, not only about defence, what we normally think that the US is coming to
02:55and take care of us. So our relation with the US as Europe, it is very strong. It will remain
03:01strong, but it is not any more unconditional. There are conditions. And that's why, from our
03:07perspective, we cannot be nervous. I'm always telling our people as well, let's cool down, but let's use
03:13this pressure to wake up as well Europe, because we have lots of revelations. And now I think the new
03:18goal,
03:19as a vision, we have a lack of vision and self-confidence in Europe. The new vision must be, let's
03:24unite Europe.
03:27I'm not talking about European Union. I'm talking about Ukraine. I'm talking about enlargement. I'm
03:31talking about more responsibilities on defence and as well economically. And somehow, to be very cynical,
03:38the Greenland case, what President Trump said, actually united us more than ever. And as well,
03:43European Union was able to say loudly that we are ready to act and we can respond to US. So
03:49it's not like the war
03:51or bad relations between Europe and US. But we need to understand that it's not only about President
03:57Trump. We will never see such a US anymore as it was in the past. But we cannot just be
04:04in defensive
04:05position as Europe. We must move forward. We have to have vision and self-confidence. And here in Munich,
04:11in different meetings, I see that it is starting to happen.
04:13Well, let's look at a couple of examples where this European Union, European unity and collaboration
04:21is really questioned. One is that Emmanuel Macron, the French President, sent one of his top
04:27diplomats recently for a meeting with the Russians. This was criticised pretty widely within Europe.
04:35What's your view? Do you think that was helpful or was that a bad move?
04:39We have been always in the position that talk to Putin without any like real plan is a mistake. We
04:47have been
04:47executing this kind of policy in Europe like decades. And what was the outcome? Outcome was more war,
04:54more aggressive Russia. So at the moment, there's a totally wrong way to go to start finding some kind of
05:00special envoy for European Union. Because this envoy will come back with a humiliated position and even
05:10weaker and also weakening as well Ukraine position. But of course, if President Macron wants to talk to Putin,
05:17this is, you know, he can do whatever. But the good thing is that this week on Thursday, informal meeting
05:25of European leaders,
05:26there was no support for this idea to start talking with Kremlin. We must put more pressure on Russia
05:32not to talk with them.
05:34Well, let's look at another topic. So defense cooperation is seen as so important. But one of the flagship projects
05:39has been going on for years. So FCAS, so this idea of, you know, a future fighter, a jet fighter
05:45program
05:45between France and Germany has been through incredible struggles. And now there are doubts that it's ever really going to
05:51happen.
05:52What kind of a message does that send to you? So Estonia, obviously, a small country that is dependent on
05:58NATO
05:58for its air defenses. What's your message to those big countries? Do they need to pull themselves together
06:05and work out how to cooperate on these projects?
06:08And this is one example that this European collaboration sometimes is too difficult. So, and there is a different
06:16reasons why it is like this. But we need to understand in Europe that it's not about a different national
06:22interest
06:22about defense industry. There is no competition between each other. We actually need more support, more new innovation.
06:31And Ukraine is our opportunity. I want to change this narrative in Europe that now we are telling that we
06:37support Europe
06:38because we need to help them. No. In the future, we need Ukraine in Europe. We need Ukraine capabilities.
06:45We need Ukraine innovation. We need Ukraine army, actually, to have a peace guarantees for Europe.
06:51So we need to change this understanding as well that inside Europe we are competing. We are somehow struggling.
06:57No. Our global goal is actually to be more competitive. And this is one example that we are spending lots
07:07of money,
07:08lots of time, and the outcome is mainly zero. We don't have this luxury. We need to focus on what
07:14can we do in real life.
07:15And also, first time ever, we have lots of money coming into defense. Now we must be smart not to
07:22invest in the past,
07:23but actually invest in the future, be innovative, and also bring Ukraine in because Ukraine will change our attitude as
07:31well.
07:32Final question. One of the big kind of European discussions at the moment that's happening mostly behind closed doors is
07:39about
07:39whether Europe needs a more integrated nuclear deterrent, whether France and the UK need to extend deterrent to other European
07:48member states.
07:50Is that something that you feel that Estonia would benefit from? Or are you concerned by the implications of these
07:56very sensitive conversations?
07:59We are in Estonia very practical people. And for us, the defense issue is not theoretical. This is a very
08:06practical thing.
08:06So we have been investing 21 years to NATO, and NATO is actually the frame which is working. It's not
08:14a theoretical thing.
08:15These are the plans, commitments, protocols. So we cannot start to create something different.
08:24So I think that NATO umbrella about nuclear deterrent is something we need to invest heavily more.
08:29But I'm not against to have these discussions that whether we could have the additional opportunity,
08:35because France is the only country in Europe who has actually independent nuclear capabilities.
08:40So we cannot compete, but we can add this opportunity. And also it gives some leverages as well with the
08:46relation with the US.
08:47So it's a good thing to discuss, but in real life there won't be any kind of new European army
08:53or totally independent nuclear deterrents,
08:57because we need to work together. So our enemies in Russia, our competitive country is actually China.
09:06So let's have this kind of theoretical, academical discussions, but in real life let's invest in this NATO umbrella of
09:13neutral detection.
09:15Marcus Tucker, thank you very much. Thank you very much.
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