- 6 months ago
The high representative for Gaza, Nickolay Mladenov, the foreign ministers of the Palestinian Authority and of Spain and senior politicians from the US and the UAE discussed Palestinian self-determination and Trump's Board of Peace.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Conflict Zone is at the Munich Security Conference, with a high-level panel addressing Trump's
00:04vision for a new Gaza.
00:06We speak with senior representatives from the Palestinian Authority, the U.S., the UAE,
00:10and Spain, as well as the high representative for Gaza, who is charged with making this
00:15plan work on the ground.
00:17There's a vision for a new Gaza.
00:23The people in charge have been named.
00:26The Board of Peace will meet in Washington next week, but there are wide gaps over the
00:30next steps, including Hamas disarmament and Israeli withdrawal, as well as questions over
00:35the Board of Peace's legitimacy and whether this is indeed the right path forward.
00:41Foreign Minister, I'd like to begin with you.
00:44The U.S. has presented this glossy and this modern vision of Gaza, but there are some harsh
00:49realities on the ground, some one million people in need of shelter, dependent on aid.
00:55You endorsed Trump's plan.
00:58Are you satisfied with the timetable and the progress so far?
01:01I think it's not just about the plan itself.
01:04Who would say no to a peace plan?
01:06What we need to see is a time frame that would take us throughout the steps of the plan, including
01:12the realities today in Gaza.
01:14Today in Gaza, the reality is that there is only a partial ceasefire.
01:19Foreign assistance is not entering in the extent that is needed, and there's a lot that needs
01:24to be done in Gaza.
01:26Gaza is not separable from the West Bank.
01:28We need to, the reality is, Gaza is part and parcel of the occupied Palestinian territory,
01:34and as such we need to look at it as an integral part.
01:38The most important issue is the security issue.
01:40We need to look at the security with an objective eye and ask ourselves, whose security are we
01:47trying to prioritize and whose security we are trying to normalize?
01:52For us Palestinians, the pathway is very clear.
01:55It's part and parcel of the occupied territory, and as such we need to be engaged as soon as
01:59possible.
02:00I would get Mr. Mladenov that perspective from you, because I mean security and the disarmament
02:05of Hamas has been called the linchpin now going forward.
02:09This is really seen now as the first step to provide that security.
02:13Is Hamas going to give up its weapons and how soon?
02:15And I'd also like to remember, you're the one who is now charged with making this plan
02:20work on the ground.
02:21You're the principal diplomat.
02:22Well, thank you.
02:23I would say that we have to look at the plan as the only option of going ahead with anything
02:30that makes sense in Gaza and that stops this war and doesn't allow a return to violence.
02:35And the plan is quite clear.
02:37Gaza needs to be governed by a transitional authority, as authorized by the Security Council
02:41Resolution, under which it needs to take on the full civilian and security control of
02:47Gaza.
02:48And that includes the disarmament of all factions in Gaza, not just Hamas.
02:54Hamas, Islamic Jihad, others, there are plenty of them who have weapons and tunnels and
03:00production facilities inside Gaza.
03:03That is the condition under which we can see Israeli forces withdraw from the current yellow
03:09line in order to be able to begin any reconstruction for the Gaza Strip.
03:14We're hearing about a draft plan.
03:15There's been some reporting this week.
03:17We understand you are listed as part of this American-led team that is behind it.
03:22The details that we have learned is that it would require Hamas to surrender all weapons
03:26that are capable of striking Israel, but would allow them to keep some small arms temporarily.
03:31Can you confirm that first?
03:33And is it ready to send to Hamas?
03:35Are you seriously asking me to respond to that question?
03:38I'm not going to respond to that question.
03:39We have different plans.
03:41We have different issues on the table.
03:44But I think the reality is that all of this needs to move very fast.
03:48Because let me be absolutely clear about the risks that we're facing here.
03:52The first risk is that we're not going to implement the second phase of the ceasefire,
03:57but we're going to go to the second phase of the war.
04:00And that is a serious threat on the situation on the ground.
04:04And if Gaza returns back to war, there's no place for the Board of Peace, there's no place
04:09for any of us until we see what is left and pick up the rubble potentially at the end of
04:13it.
04:14But to me, the biggest risk right now is that we cement the reality that we have on the
04:18ground.
04:19And that reality is not just Gaza being divided from the West Bank under legitimate Palestinian
04:24authority is the division within Gaza itself, split into two zones.
04:29And I think we need to understand that if we don't quickly, with Hamas and with all other
04:35partners, move on the implementation of the plan, this reality will be cemented on the
04:40ground and then it will be very difficult to do anything else except perhaps some humanitarian
04:44aid to people.
04:45Let's talk about the pressure that's being exerted.
04:47Mr. Gargash, I'd like to turn to you.
04:49Because how difficult is it going to be for the Arab states on the Board of Peace to push
04:56Hamas to get this done?
04:58What's your assessment?
04:59Let me say that I was talking to some friends from Gaza who live in the UAE, and I could
05:05see these different emotions in what they expect.
05:09I mean, first of all, they don't really trust the process, seeing what had happened to their
05:14family, seeing what had happened to their city and country, et cetera, et cetera.
05:21But I think they're also, and they know that, I know Nikolai very well, so they try and get
05:28a sense of improvement in at least their, you know, the sort of living conditions of their
05:37families right now.
05:38You know, the thing that they talk about right now is what about water, what about shelter?
05:45So what I'm really saying is we've got to address the immediate, and I think that is
05:51the essential part.
05:52Of course, the longer-term view of a two-state solution and how we get there, and the effect
05:59also of not taking irreversible, more irreversible actions in the West Bank are all important.
06:05But I think right now, the main, main thing is to bring real, real improvements to conditions
06:12of safety, security, livelihood, and I think that's essential.
06:16Very important issues.
06:17But I'd like to just take it to security for a little bit more specifically now, because
06:21it's rarely withdrawal from Gaza in phases.
06:23It's linked to a number of security steps, and I'd like to ask you about one of the next
06:28ones, which includes having this international stabilization force.
06:32You know, this is meant to be the long-term international security solution.
06:37The UAE hasn't completely ruled it out, or joining it.
06:41What would you need to convince the UAE, do you think, to join this force?
06:47I think we've come out and said that we will not join that.
06:50But I think there are many, many things that we will do.
06:53We will do more in terms of humanitarian.
06:57We will do more in terms of facilitation.
07:03We will use and leverage our relations also with Israel more and more in order for us to
07:10sort of let them see also the other perspective in these things.
07:15So I think it's not only one item whether you do it or you don't do it.
07:20I think there are many things, and we need to do that.
07:22Let me turn to the Spanish Foreign Minister.
07:24We're going to get to the structural problems that you have with this deal, but just very
07:28quickly, can you tell me, because Pedro Sanchez has said that Spain would be ready to send
07:35troops to Gaza for peacekeeping when the opportunity presents itself.
07:39What do you need to see in order to give you the confidence to send?
07:44Certainly a clear mandate from the United Nations and to see the Palestinian Authority at the
07:49centre of the whole process.
07:51I think that we have steps that we have to do before.
07:55We need massive humanitarian assistance to be able to go into all the land crosses to Gaza.
08:02We need to see this to be also a Palestinian-led process, and therefore the Palestinian Authority
08:09that is our partner for peace on the Palestinian camp, to be involved and then a clear mandate
08:16to that.
08:17And of course, Spain is ready to participate, including with troops.
08:20Let's talk a little bit more about that.
08:22I alluded to this earlier, you're among the European allies who have been critical of the
08:26whole set-up of Trump's Board of Peace, which is charged, of course, with overseeing the
08:30Gaza peace plan.
08:32You explicitly, in fact, declined the invitation.
08:36One of the reasons cited was concern it undermines the UN system.
08:40Another was that it does not include Palestinian representation, which you've just mentioned
08:44there.
08:45But there's no alternative to this.
08:47I mean, we just heard from the high representative.
08:49What's the alternative?
08:50And where does this leave Europe now?
08:52Are you out of it?
08:53We commend President Trump for peace.
08:56But at the same time, we have to make sure that we all give the same content to the world
09:02peace.
09:03A world peace start for building from a ceasefire that is continuously violating to a real peace,
09:10by this massive humanitarian assistance going in.
09:13From seeing the Palestinian Authority at the heart, and Europe must be at the centre.
09:19We have been a partner for everyone in the Middle East since many years ago.
09:24We are financing the Palestinian Authority since many years ago.
09:29We have our southern neighbourhood in the Mediterranean completely affected by the situation.
09:35So we have been engaged, we must remain engaged, and we are a good partner for the peace.
09:41Okay.
09:42Senator Murphy, I'd like to turn to you.
09:44Some elements of your Democratic Party were alienated by Biden's approach to Gaza.
09:49They wanted more pressure put on the Israeli government's military campaign on humanitarian
09:54grounds.
09:55You have spoken, indeed, about that.
09:58Under Trump, there's now a ceasefire and a framework for the future.
10:02What do you see Democrats now, within this structure, being able to do to help push Gaza
10:08on a path toward peace, reconciliation, reconstruction?
10:10Well, is there a ceasefire?
10:13Hundreds of Gazans have been killed since the announcement.
10:16Israel still reserves the right and, in fact, is potentially making plans to go back in with
10:22a new significant deadly ground invasion.
10:26Our critique has been that the President, I think, has been engineering for press releases
10:33and banners, not actual substance.
10:36There is an alternative to the rushed Board of Peace, which excludes some of our most important
10:43allies.
10:44The reason that it's very difficult to get our friends in Europe to sign up for a project
10:49as essential as this is because our President has engaged in a consistent campaign to alienate
10:56our friends in Europe.
10:57There was an alternative to stay closer to Europe so that when we needed them at a moment
11:02like this, they were there for us.
11:04The question is, is the President going to use leverage that he has over the Israeli government
11:11to make sure that the very difficult decisions to open up avenues for reconstruction and humanitarian
11:18relief to put the next step of Palestinian input into the governance authority in place,
11:25is he going to use that leverage?
11:27Right now it seems as if he uses leverage to make announcements, to issue plans, to convene
11:34sort of partial boards of allies, but not using that leverage to actually bend the political
11:42will inside Israel to get us to the next phase.
11:46Foreign Minister, I'd like to take it back to you.
11:49We were mentioning timetables earlier, you know, in the realm of this deal.
11:53I'd like to ask you about your own timetables now because, and the next step is on the Palestinian
11:58side.
11:59We've talked about Hamas disarming, the Palestinian authority also needs to reform, which is something
12:04that you have been talking about for so long.
12:07When will you get to the point when you can take over Gaza's governance?
12:11Are you talking about time frames?
12:14Yes, and we're ready because we've been thinking about the day after in Gaza for some time.
12:19We're not starting today.
12:21And we've had the plans, we've had plans that were endorsed by the Arab League, the Muslim
12:25world and the international community at large.
12:28So what needs to happen is for the Palestinian government to be empowered, to be able to take
12:37its responsibilities.
12:39Today the Palestinian government is marginalized.
12:42And you cannot continue marginalizing a government because whatever transpires in Gaza would be
12:48very much related to whatever happens on the West Bank.
12:51If you talk about a population registry, you need to go to the West Bank.
12:55If you talk about issuing passports, you need to go to the West Bank.
12:58So you might as well bring in the Palestinian authority early on rather than in the middle
13:03of the process or at the end of the process.
13:06Trust has been eroding among Palestinians amid all of this that you have described in the
13:11occupied West Bank.
13:13And trust in the Palestinian authority.
13:16political alienation is also on the rise.
13:19There's an increasing number of the population refusing to identify with any faction.
13:25Can you bring people together?
13:26I'd like to ask you, you know, is it even possible on the short term?
13:30Yes, it's possible, and we need to keep that hope alive.
13:34Because the numbers are pretty stark when you look at the polling.
13:37We need to keep the hope alive because we cannot go into desperation.
13:42The Palestinians need to see something moving on the political front.
13:45We are tired from being seen with a humanitarian lens.
13:49The humanitarian lens needs a political track.
13:52And if Palestinians start seeing a future at the end of the tunnel, then they will rally
13:58behind the leadership.
13:59But if this leadership is not being able to deliver, and it is the peace camp that is unable
14:04to deliver, then of course the leadership will be marginalized and its reputation going down.
14:10I'd like to ask you a little bit more about governance, Mr. Mladenov, and I know you also
14:16wanted to talk about the International Stabilization Force, I saw you signaling for me earlier.
14:21Let's talk about the Palestinian National Committee for the Administration of Gaza.
14:26This is the technocratic body that's meant to move in, and they're currently operating out of Cairo.
14:33What needs to happen before they can operate in Gaza, and how much power will they have
14:39to decide the future of the Palestinian people, with all these layers of oversight and governance?
14:45There are no layers of oversight and governance.
14:46The Board of Peace?
14:47The layers of support, guidance and assistance to the committee.
14:51The committee is not the bottom layer of a system, it is the spearhead of what is required
15:00to actually give the people of Gaza a new hope, as you said, for the future.
15:05Now, for them to go into Gaza, a number of conditions need to be met.
15:08And we've already started working with them with all sides.
15:11One, Hamas needs to transfer the civilian control of the institutions in Gaza.
15:15And this is not an easy process.
15:17This requires a little bit more careful planning, it requires monitoring and verification for us
15:22to be able to make sure that this is done in a proper way.
15:26This is not a government coming in after an election.
15:29This is far much more complicated, because Hamas has been governing Gaza for 20 years,
15:34and changing Palestinian laws and implementing policies that are not in line with Palestinian legislation.
15:40Secondly, we need to make sure that what is happening now with the violations of the ceasefire stops.
15:47Because if you put the committee tomorrow in Gaza and the violations of the ceasefire continue the way
15:53they are now, we're only embarrassing the committee and ultimately making it ineffective.
15:57Thirdly, we need to see a radical increase in the assistance to people.
16:03Aid going into Gaza, materials that have been long needed, temporary housing, tents, caravans,
16:11medicine, food, everything that is required needs to change so people can quickly see
16:17some change, some basic change in their lives.
16:19Sorry, but there are a couple of other conditions as well.
16:22We need to make sure that the committee has the resources, of course, to be able to do this.
16:27And finally, we need to make sure that we have the framework agreed in place on the decommissioning
16:36of weapons in Gaza. And here comes my answer to the ISF question. The ISF question is very,
16:41the ISF is extremely important, the security force, but far more important than the ISF,
16:46far more important is the new Palestinian security force that should be deployed in Gaza,
16:54that should be able to secure the ground with the assistance of the ISF. Because if we are relying
17:00on international troops, no matter where they come from, to police Gaza, we have a very wrong
17:08approach to this. And this is not the approach that we have.
17:10I have just a quick question for you now. And I just want to change gears for a second,
17:14because I understand you'll be in Washington next week, the Board of Peace will be meeting.
17:18Trump is set to announce a multi-billion dollar fund for Gaza.
17:23There are demands for this fund to be controlled by the UN, we're hearing from some diplomats.
17:31Who should control the cash?
17:32There are different... First of all, it's not cash.
17:37The money.
17:38And secondly, there are a number of instruments. There's a World Bank trust fund that is being
17:45created to manage assistance for Gaza. We're looking now at three priorities. Firstly,
17:52humanitarian aid, because that is what is immediately needed. Secondly, is emergency recovery on the ground.
17:59And thirdly, security. Because none of the ideas that are out there of how Gaza can be rebuilt
18:06in the future can even begin to materialize until Gaza is one. And right now it's not one,
18:12and you have the security problem related to the weapons there. So for the conditions to be in place,
18:19for Gaza to be reconstructed, if you wish, and redeveloped in a way that is sustainable,
18:27one, we need to have the committee in, effectively governing. Two, we need to have the process of
18:33decommissioning of weapons. And three, we need Israeli withdrawal.
18:35Would the UAE be satisfied by that answer? You know, having given money to the Palestinian
18:42people? And if not, what are the checks and balances that you're going to be looking for
18:46to try and convince you that the money will be stably invested for the benefit of the Palestinian
18:51people? I think we're on board. I think number one on humanitarian support in the last two years,
18:58we put about 45% to all aid going to Gaza. So we're committed. We are sending more and more aid there.
19:06But again, with the money, the more transparent the system is, I think the more comfortable the UAE,
19:12as I'm sure many other donors will be, as soon as we see that sort of transparency and the system of
19:19spending for Gaza is clear, I think. There are so many details yet to be worked out. Foreign Minister,
19:26I'd like to turn to you because, I mean, Europe gives a lot of money to the Palestinians. What would
19:30you be looking for when it comes to how the money is structured, for example, for anti-corruption?
19:36First of all, we want to make sure that Gaza remains being the land of the Palestinians from Gaza,
19:45and that there is no division of the Gaza Strip. The second thing, all the money should go to strengthen
19:53the Palestinian institution. And if there are things working in the West Bank, let's not duplicate them.
19:59Let's try to involve what is being done successfully in the West Bank, and let's bring it to Gaza. Because
20:06what's very important for us is reconstruction must be focused on the people of Gaza, the Palestinians of
20:13Gaza, and not losing sight of our final objective. And the final objective is to give a definitive peace
20:21and stability, and that means to a state solution and putting in place a Palestinian state. Everything
20:27that reinforce that goal, it's good for everyone, including the Israelis and its security. Everything
20:34that goes away from that will do nothing at the end. Let's go back to the glossy future that has been
20:40presented for Gaza. We've all saw the pictures, we saw Kushner, although not addressed in his
20:46presentation in Davos, the guarantees that there should be for Palestinians regarding property rights,
20:52compensation for those who lost homes, businesses, livelihoods, you know, during the war. Have you
20:57gotten any clarity on that since? I don't think there's the clarity that is needed, but
21:03the main issue that we need to put before us is we don't want to engineer a new Gaza. We want a Gaza
21:10that is for its people and for being part and parcel of the whole of Palestine. If we think of a new
21:18Gaza that is divorced from this reality, then we are going into something that is foreign to the terrain and
21:26foreign to the people. Senator Murphy, I'd like to turn to you now. We can't ignore what is happening
21:33in the West Bank. The increasing settler violence, now there's new legislation making it easier for
21:40Jewish settlers to buy land. We have successive governments in the United States which have
21:47failed to reign this in. And this is a major barrier to lasting peace. Why has there been that failure?
21:54Because the United States does have leverage, don't they? You are watching in real time the erasure
22:01of a Palestinian state and we don't any longer have years, we have days and weeks to interrupt what is
22:10happening in the West Bank. This is a critical moment and the president has to use this leverage
22:16that I spoke of, not just to open up humanitarian corridors, not just to make sure that the next
22:21phase is opened up, but to speak truth to power to the Israeli government about how their actions
22:27in the West Bank are shattering a future Palestinian state. I just want to be honest about what's
22:33happening in the United States today with respect to US public opinion. For the first time ever,
22:39the majority of Americans now, Republicans and Democrats, no longer support additional military
22:46aid to Israel. That number, if you are under 30 in the United States, is 16%. Now that's heartbreaking
22:54as someone who has spent his entire life believing in and supporting the state of Israel. But what's
23:01happening in the West Bank to many Americans is just as relevant as what's happening in Gaza. And so
23:08if there is not a change in Israeli behavior in the West Bank, it will threaten the long-term ability
23:15of the United States to support its vital allies. So this is a very important moment for Israel to
23:22maintain support from the American people. And it's not just about what's happening in Gaza. The American
23:28people are watching what's happening with the expansion of the settlements, with the talk of annexation.
23:33And it is part of what is driving both the left and the right away from continued support for our ally Israel.
23:41Mr. Gargosh, I'd like to turn to you next because, you know, Arab states, they signed up for this plan under the
23:46assumption that it is indeed working toward a two-state solution. Do you feel that that is still in the cards? And what sort of
23:53timetable do you think should be expected? And will the, you know, the UAE and others walk away if you feel
24:00that in this process it is not adequately addressed?
24:03I'll echo what the, what the, what the Palestinian Forum Minister said. You have to have a political horizon.
24:13You cannot just work on humanitarian issues without a clear political horizon. And I think this is the
24:21the main understanding of the UAE and other Arab countries, I would say. You have to lead somewhere.
24:29I mean, right now we know we have to address the Gaza issue. And these are, many of them are issues,
24:37part are humanitarian, part are reconstruction, part is Hamas weaponry, part is Israeli occupation of Gaza.
24:45But again, as you deal with these things, if you don't really present the political horizon,
24:51you're just walking in circles, really. So you do need a political horizon.
24:55I'd like to also ask you about not only the political horizon, but also the structures that are in place,
25:01because, you know, it has been highlighted here before that there are Arab countries on the board of
25:06peace, but no Palestinian representation there. How do you see the risk that Arabs on the board will need
25:13to speak for the Palestinians and not the Palestinians themselves?
25:17Well, I think we have to work with the situation that we have right now. I mean,
25:21you have many Arab countries today that are represented, but I think a more, you know,
25:27a more, let's say, equal situation will be for the Palestinians to have their voice. And they have to
25:33have their voice not only on the board of peace, but everywhere, because this is, I think,
25:38they are one of the principles as much as the Israelis are. This is essential, in my opinion.
25:42Do you have confidence that, you know, Arab and other member states of the board of peace will
25:47stand up to Trump if progress on the two-state solution does not materialize?
25:51We have confidence in the Arab world, and the Arab world is our backbone. But we need to be around
25:57the table, because enough of people talking about us, implementing for us, planning for us, without us.
26:05It's about time that we speak for ourselves.
26:07What do you think Gaza will be one year from now?
26:13I hope it will be governed by the transitional administration of the committee.
26:19I hope we will be able to do that in cooperation with the Palestinian Authority, because that is
26:25critically important, as the minister said. I hope that we will be significantly advanced on deploying a
26:34new security force of Palestinians inside Gaza, and Hamas would have given up a significant part of
26:45its weapons, so that we are moving forward to the point at which Israel can withdraw from the yellow line.
26:53These are conditions that I think are critical, if we are ever to return back to the political resolution
27:00of the Palestinian question. Because the political resolution of the Palestinian question requires
27:05negotiations, it requires one Palestinian leadership over the entire occupied territory,
27:11and it requires a dialogue that is facilitated, not overseen, but facilitated by the United States,
27:18Europe and others, as it has been in the past. But to be able to do that, we need to see what is
27:25written in the resolution materialized. And the resolution is not just about Gaza. The resolution includes
27:30the requirement for the Palestinian Authority to undertake significant reforms, and for Gaza,
27:36at the end of the transition period, to be handed back to the Palestinian Authority and return to the
27:41political questions. This is the framing of the resolution, and this is, I think, on what we all agree.
27:46We have time for just some quick remarks before opening it up to the floor.
27:49A foreign minister. How do you see Spain's role, just briefly, in helping with reconstruction?
27:55We are going to continue in the path that we are supporting the Palestinian Authority. We do it
28:00financially. This year we have given 50 million to the Palestinian Authority. We are ready to help with
28:05the reconstruction, and we are ready to help with a genuine peace. But we, once again, we have to make sure
28:12that we all give the same content to the world peace. That means a Palestinian-led process,
28:19Gaza is for the Gazati people and for no one else, and we give them the living condition for that. Under
28:27those conditions, we are ready to be there.
28:29Senator Murphy, you mentioned fatigue over this issue in the United States. You have midterms,
28:35you have other issues coming up, there are other hot spots in the world. How do you see keeping the
28:39focus and keeping the public focused on this in the US?
28:44I think it is incredibly important that we see real progress in the short term. You obviously
28:49have an enormously difficult job, but the humanitarian situation continues to be morally
28:55unacceptable. Once again, I really worry about the long-term health of the US-Israel relationship
29:02if we don't see real meaningful progress in the clearing of rubble, in the delivery of
29:10humanitarian and medical aid, the construction of actual real permanent shelters in which people
29:16can live. You know, this is going to be critical for the United States to continue to build support
29:23for the ultimate very expensive reconstruction project. I think the other quick thing to mention
29:27is that it's got to be done in a transparent way, right? We have watched our president hand projects
29:33to cronies and to friends to waste and abuse taxpayer dollars. If there's going to be a request that the
29:40Congress put forward substantial money into Gaza, it's going to have to be administered through a forum in
29:48which we know there are not favors being doled out to the president's friends.
29:52Mr. Gargash, I'd like to ask you, how hopeful are you with all the moving parts that you're seeing that
29:59that this will become a region of peace? We always have to be hopeful. I think that is the...
30:05What is the state of your personal hope right now? That's the cornerstone, I think, of working as a
30:11diplomat, is to be hopeful. I mean, the challenges are many, but I think bringing also
30:19bringing relief to people who are suffering, trying to find political solutions, being able to help
30:26in issues like these are what keeps us going. I mean, this is going to remain being a very difficult
30:34region. I think the Palestinian issue is also at core. So addressing that Palestinian issue
30:42does not mean that you resolve all of the region's issues, but it's very central and very important
30:49to do that. I think we have to be very hopeful and continue, although it's sometimes very difficult,
30:55to be honest. What is your level of confidence that this is the plan that works? Or are we here
31:01again in another 10, 20 years still talking about lasting peace? I hope we are not here next year
31:06talking about peace, but it needs a lot of teeth and a lot of work. The Palestinian leadership's
31:14message is constant on the viability of a state that lives in peace and security with its neighbors,
31:19and we all need to work towards that end. Okay. Thank you so much to all of our panelists. We're
31:25going to open it up now to the floor. We have a first comment coming from the former foreign minister
31:30of the state of Israel, Sipi Livni, and perhaps some food for thought, you know, to get your response to
31:38what we've heard about plans for Gaza's future, how you see Israel's security concerns being addressed,
31:43and perhaps you can also address the fears among some that Israel may be preparing to resume
31:50full-scale military operations in the territory. Thank you. I believe that there is an opportunity
31:55here, an opportunity that can turn into a danger to both the Israeli and Palestinians,
32:03and the only way to continue and to create a better future for both is by stop thinking in terms of
32:14supporting the Palestinians or Israel. There's a win-win situation or win-win way of thinking,
32:25and therefore those of you just speaking, not just speaking about the situation in Gaza,
32:33without taking care of Israel's security, this will lead to a situation, to a danger
32:42to the Palestinians in Gaza as well for Israelis. The only way to move forward is also by having a joint
32:53understanding and action plan of the moderates or the pragmatics in the region against the extremists.
33:03And it's clear, especially after October 7th, that Hamas cannot stay in power, that it should be
33:11demilitarized, and Gaza should be demilitarized, by the way, as was agreed also in the past when we
33:18negotiated peace with the Palestinians. There is no hope for peace with them. They do not represent
33:26any national cause of the Palestinians because they represent this religious jihadist ideology.
33:34And we should learn from past experience. Israel quit Gaza Strip in 2005.
33:40Israel dismantled all the settlements in Gaza. Israel hoped that the Palestinian Authority will take
33:48over, but Hamas took over. And the Palestinian Authority didn't have enough power to replace
33:55Hamas. And I believe that part of the responsibility of the pragmatics is to strengthen the Palestinian
34:01Palestinian Authority against Hamas. And therefore we cannot afford another situation where Hamas is
34:10taking over or reaching an agreement that they will be part of a future government in Gaza.
34:21Because when they took over in 2006, the entire international community agreed that if a Palestinian
34:28government want to be legitimate want to be legitimate, they need to accept the Oslo agreement and to
34:35renounce violence and terrorism. And this is more than true, especially after October 7th today.
34:42So, yes, it's not just about Gaza. And I do not represent here the Israeli government, but I do
34:49represent here the Israelis who want to live in peace with the Palestinians that are not thinking about
34:58expansion of settlements or building new settlements in Gaza. But I'm also the one that negotiated peace
35:05in the future. And unfortunately, Abu Mazen was not willing or didn't have the courage to say yes to a plan.
35:12I'm not entering into a blame game, trust me. This is not the reason that I'm mentioning this.
35:18But we need to learn from past experience. And the price that all of us paid during all these years is
35:26too high not to learn from past experience.
35:30I think that there will be a response to that from the panel. And I would like to integrate it also with the
35:35first question from the audience. So I would encourage people to raise their hands so I can
35:42get a sense of who might have questions in the room. And we'll begin right here.
35:52Thank you very much for an interesting panel. My name is Koth Piri, a member of parliament in the
35:56Netherlands. I have a question. No one mentioned the word accountability or justice. So I wonder
36:03when will there be justice for the crimes that have been committed? I think all the perpetrators
36:11of 7th of October mostly are killed. What about the perpetrators of the genocide? Thank you.
36:18Mr. Mladenov, would you like to take that one?
36:21Look, my focus now really is entirely centered on how we can make sure that the tragedy that Gaza is
36:32does not continue a day longer than it has until now. And I'm sorry to say but Munich is very far
36:40from the reality of what people are living with in Gaza right now. And that's why I want to get back
36:47to what I said in the beginning. Our focus needs to be on making sure that the people of Gaza receive
36:55the aid that they require right now, that we put in transparent, accountable indeed institutions of
37:01governance in Gaza that they have not had for 20 years. And that we make sure that there are no weapons
37:09beyond the control of the transitional authority in Gaza. Because if we continue this, if anyone in
37:14this panel or in this room believes that we can move forward or anyone gains... When does the accountability
37:20part though come in? I think that was the question. When does it come in? By Hamas staying in control of
37:26Gaza, please let me know. Please let me know. That is my focus now. All the questions related to the
37:33political process, to what happened on October 7th, to what led to October 7th, to what happened after
37:38October 7th, right now, are not in my remit. And that is why I want to stay within what I need to
37:44focus on, because we're dealing with human lives right now. We're really dealing with human lives
37:48and we need to understand this. And again, if anyone in this panel or in this room believes that there
37:53is a future for Israelis and Palestinians, with Hamas in government in Gaza, with their weapons under
37:59their control, please let me know. There was a question right here in the front and then, you know,
38:04we'll ask two questions. Thank you very much. I'm the Assistant Secretary General of the Arab League.
38:13I'm very encouraged by the panel and what was said about the way forward in Gaza, but I think most of
38:22us would agree that Gaza in itself is not the issue. The issue is the political horizon for the whole
38:30Palestinian question. I heard, for instance, what Minister Livni said, and I know this is shared
38:38in wide circles in Israel, but they also have to ask themselves why we reached this stage.
38:46The ruling coalition in Israel right now has succeeded effectively in taking us back
38:53back to prior Madrid before 1991. That is very significant. So we need to, yeah, you need me to
39:02ask a question, right? I didn't have a question. I had a comment and I think it is warranted. So my
39:10question, my comment really is, at the end, I would say, let us focus, let us focus, led by the United States,
39:20because I still believe, I'm among many who still believe that it is the United States power that
39:27would be needed in order to bring things forward. Mr. Barghouti.
39:35Yes, thank you. I want to agree with Senator Murphy that about the urgency of the moment,
39:41I feel sometimes we are living in a bubble of illusion. While we are talking, the Israeli
39:49government has declared that the whole West Bank is available for settlements, and they practically
39:57nailed the last nail in the coffin of the Oslo Agreement in front of the whole world. And it is the
40:02Prime Minister of Israel who declared that Israel will be from the river to the sea, including Gaza.
40:09And it is the Israeli finance minister who declared that they will come back to Gaza and resettle there,
40:16and Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed. In this situation, it's not just about the
40:21accountability for genocide, which is a very good question. Also, who's going to pressure Israel to
40:27stop the process of killing the very last option of two states? Is there someone to whom you'd like to
40:33direct that question? Perhaps Chris Murphy? Well, listen, I mean, our own intelligence agencies tell us
40:42that the net results of Israel's military activity in Gaza has been essentially meaningless with respect to
40:56the eradication of Hamas fighters. Essentially, just as many have joined as have been killed. And it is a
41:04reminder that we can have this conversation every decade about the reconstruction of Gaza after a major
41:12military activity from Israel, or we can make a decision to prioritize a future in which the Palestinians have a
41:21home of their own. And so this has to be a centerpiece of American policy. I will agree that we need to
41:27lead. This administration has not led, but we cannot give up. But I think the administration needs to
41:33understand that time is of the essence. I'm going to turn around because I haven't been able to see
41:36behind me if there were any questions or any hands. And if not, I did see a question right here.
41:43Yeah. And please do ask a question if you would. No, no, it is a question. Thank you.
41:50I'm the director of the Carnegie Middle East Center in Beirut. Nicolai, for you, it's called the
41:56Board of Peace. So while I applaud the focus on, you know, the immediate humanitarian addressing the
42:04disastrous conditions, I think maybe this needs to be part of a larger political horizon.
42:10Yeah. At least taking that into account. It's not enough to say the here and now and the urgency
42:17of the moment, I think Mustafa and many of the speakers have already referred to. So my question
42:23to all of you is what, what can be done? What are you willing to do to, what leverage are you willing
42:31to use to start building the blocks for something really that is called peace?
42:37I think I'd have to give that to you again. I fully agree. I fully agree with you. What I'm saying
42:45is that there are two ways of looking at it. Can we fix the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and end up
42:52with a two-state solution if we're looking at the politics at the top without looking at what's
42:57happening on the ground? Or do we need to fix the situation on the ground in order to enable
43:04the conclusion of what needs to happen at the top? And right now we have such a disastrous situation in
43:12Gaza. Such a disastrous situation that if we allow collectively it to, to be cemented under the
43:20current conditions in which it is not just Gaza being divided from the West Bank, it is Gaza itself
43:26being divided into two parts. If we cement that division, please tell me how we get from that
43:32to a two-state solution because I can't see the pathway. And that is why we need to make sure that,
43:37you know, one, Gaza is, you know, we often talk about having one governance, one legal system,
43:46and one system of controlling weapons in Gaza. And I always add to that, we need one Gaza for that.
43:52And that is why we need to start with, you know, making sure that Hamas is out of the governance,
43:56that there's a transitional civilian authority in place in order to be able to
44:01normalize the situation on the ground in order to have what is really required, as you said,
44:11a political solution to the conflict. But under the current conditions, with Hamas still in Gaza,
44:17and Gaza divided into two, we're setting ourselves up for complete and utter failure if we don't
44:24address that. And that failure will be, the price of that failure will be paid both by Palestinians and
44:30Israelis down the line. And with those words, we conclude our panel,
44:35Life Under Destruction, Building Blocks for a New Gaza. Thank you so much to all of you,
44:39and thank you so much to the audience.
Comments