- 7 hours ago
The High Representative for Gaza, Nickolay Mladenov, the foreign ministers of the Palestinian Authority and of Spain, senior polticians from the US and the UAE, discussed Palestinian self-determination and Trump's Board of Peace.
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00:00Conflict Zone is at the Munich Security Conference, with a high-level panel addressing Trump's
00:04vision for a new Gaza.
00:06We speak with senior representatives from the Palestinian Authority, the U.S., the UAE,
00:10and Spain, as well as the high representative for Gaza, who is charged with making this
00:15plan work on the ground.
00:17There's a vision for a new Gaza.
00:23The people in charge have been named.
00:26The Board of Peace will meet in Washington next week, but there are wide gaps over the
00:30next steps, including Hamas disarmament and Israeli withdrawal, as well as questions over
00:35the Board of Peace's legitimacy and whether this is indeed the right path forward.
00:41Foreign Minister, I'd like to begin with you.
00:44The U.S. has presented this glossy and this modern vision of Gaza, but there are some harsh
00:49realities on the ground, some one million people in need of shelter, dependent on aid.
00:55You endorsed Trump's plan.
00:58Are you satisfied with the timetable and the progress so far?
01:01I think it's not just about the plan itself.
01:04Who would say no to a peace plan?
01:06What we need to see is a time frame that would take us throughout the steps of the plan, including
01:12the realities today in Gaza.
01:14Today in Gaza, the reality is that there is only a partial ceasefire.
01:19Foreign assistance is not entering in the extent that is needed, and there's a lot that needs
01:24to be done in Gaza.
01:26Gaza is not separable from the West Bank.
01:28We need to, the reality is, Gaza is part and parcel of the occupied Palestinian territory,
01:34and as such we need to look at it as an integral part.
01:38The most important issue is the security issue.
01:40We need to look at the security with an objective eye and ask ourselves, whose security are we
01:47trying to prioritize and whose security we are trying to normalize?
01:52For us Palestinians, the pathway is very clear.
01:55It's part and parcel of the occupied territory, and as such we need to be engaged as soon as
01:59possible.
02:00I would get Mr. Mladenov that perspective from you, because I mean security and the disarmament
02:05of Hamas has been called the linchpin now going forward.
02:09This is really seen now as the first step to provide that security.
02:13Is Hamas going to give up its weapons and how soon?
02:15And I'd also like to remember, you're the one who is now charged with making this plan
02:20work on the ground.
02:21You're the principal diplomat.
02:22Well, thank you.
02:23I would say that we have to look at the plan as the only option of going ahead with anything
02:30that makes sense in Gaza and that stops this war and doesn't allow a return to violence.
02:35And the plan is quite clear.
02:37Gaza needs to be governed by a transitional authority, as authorized by the Security Council
02:41Resolution, under which it needs to take on the full civilian and security control of
02:47Gaza.
02:48And that includes the disarmament of all factions in Gaza, not just Hamas.
02:54Hamas, Islamic Jihad, others, there are plenty of them who have weapons and tunnels and
03:00production facilities inside Gaza.
03:03That is the condition under which we can see Israeli forces withdraw from the current yellow
03:09line in order to be able to begin any reconstruction for the Gaza Strip.
03:14We're hearing about a draft plan.
03:15There's been some reporting this week.
03:17We understand you are listed as part of this American-led team that is behind it.
03:22The details that we have learned is that it would require Hamas to surrender all weapons
03:26that are capable of striking Israel, but would allow them to keep some small arms temporarily.
03:31Can you confirm that first?
03:33And is it ready to send to Hamas?
03:35Are you seriously asking me to respond to that question?
03:38I'm not going to respond to that question.
03:39We have different plans.
03:41We have different issues on the table.
03:44But I think the reality is that all of this needs to move very fast.
03:48Because let me be absolutely clear about the risks that we're facing here.
03:52The first risk is that we're not going to implement the second phase of the ceasefire,
03:57but we're going to go to the second phase of the war.
04:00And that is a serious threat on the situation on the ground.
04:04And if Gaza returns back to war, there's no place for the Board of Peace, there's no place
04:09for any of us until we see what is left and pick up the rubble potentially at the end of
04:13it.
04:14But to me, the biggest risk right now is that we cement the reality that we have on the
04:18ground.
04:19And that reality is not just Gaza being divided from the West Bank under legitimate Palestinian
04:24authority is the division within Gaza itself, split into two zones.
04:29And I think we need to understand that if we don't quickly, with Hamas and with all other
04:35partners, move on the implementation of the plan, this reality will be cemented on the
04:40ground and then it will be very difficult to do anything else except perhaps some humanitarian
04:44aid to people.
04:45Let's talk about the pressure that's being exerted.
04:47Mr. Gargash, I'd like to turn to you.
04:49Because how difficult is it going to be for the Arab states on the Board of Peace to push
04:56Hamas to get this done?
04:58What's your assessment?
04:59Let me say that I was talking to some friends from Gaza who live in the UAE, and I could
05:05see these different emotions in what they expect.
05:09I mean, first of all, they don't really trust the process, seeing what had happened to their
05:14family, seeing what had happened to their city and country, et cetera, et cetera.
05:21But I think they're also, and they know that, I know Nikolai very well, so they try and get
05:28a sense of improvement in at least their, you know, the sort of living conditions of their
05:37families right now.
05:38You know, the thing that they talk about right now is what about water, what about shelter?
05:45So what I'm really saying is we've got to address the immediate, and I think that is
05:51the essential part.
05:52Of course, the longer-term view of a two-state solution and how we get there, and the effect
05:59also of not taking irreversible, more irreversible actions in the West Bank are all important.
06:05But I think right now, the main, main thing is to bring real, real improvements to conditions
06:12of safety, security, livelihood, and I think that's essential.
06:16Very important issues.
06:17But I'd like to just take it to security for a little bit more specifically now, because
06:21it's rarely withdrawal from Gaza in phases.
06:23It's linked to a number of security steps, and I'd like to ask you about one of the next
06:28ones, which includes having this international stabilization force.
06:32You know, this is meant to be the long-term international security solution.
06:37The UAE hasn't completely ruled it out, or joining it.
06:41What would you need to convince the UAE, do you think, to join this force?
06:47I think we've come out and said that we will not join that.
06:50But I think there are many, many things that we will do.
06:53We will do more in terms of humanitarian.
06:57We will do more in terms of facilitation.
07:03We will use and leverage our relations also with Israel more and more in order for us to
07:10sort of let them see also the other perspective in these things.
07:15So I think it's not only one item whether you do it or you don't do it.
07:20I think there are many things, and we need to do that.
07:22Let me turn to the Spanish Foreign Minister.
07:24We're going to get to the structural problems that you have with this deal, but just very
07:28quickly, can you tell me, because Pedro Sanchez has said that Spain would be ready to send
07:35troops to Gaza for peacekeeping when the opportunity presents itself.
07:39What do you need to see in order to give you the confidence to send?
07:44Certainly a clear mandate from the United Nations and to see the Palestinian Authority at the
07:49centre of the whole process.
07:51I think that we have steps that we have to do before.
07:55We need massive humanitarian assistance to be able to go into all the land crosses to Gaza.
08:02We need to see this to be also a Palestinian-led process, and therefore the Palestinian Authority
08:09that is our partner for peace on the Palestinian camp, to be involved and then a clear mandate
08:16to that.
08:17And of course, Spain is ready to participate, including with troops.
08:20Let's talk a little bit more about that.
08:22I alluded to this earlier, you're among the European allies who have been critical of the
08:26whole set-up of Trump's Board of Peace, which is charged, of course, with overseeing the
08:30Gaza peace plan.
08:32You explicitly, in fact, declined the invitation.
08:36One of the reasons cited was concern it undermines the UN system.
08:40Another was that it does not include Palestinian representation, which you've just mentioned
08:44there.
08:45But there's no alternative to this.
08:47I mean, we just heard from the high representative.
08:49What's the alternative?
08:50And where does this leave Europe now?
08:52Are you out of it?
08:53We commend President Trump for peace.
08:56But at the same time, we have to make sure that we all give the same content to the world
09:02peace.
09:03A world peace start for building from a ceasefire that is continuously violating to a real peace,
09:10by this massive humanitarian assistance going in.
09:13From seeing the Palestinian Authority at the heart, and Europe must be at the centre.
09:19We have been a partner for everyone in the Middle East since many years ago.
09:24We are financing the Palestinian Authority since many years ago.
09:29We have our southern neighbourhood in the Mediterranean completely affected by the situation.
09:35So we have been engaged, we must remain engaged, and we are a good partner for the peace.
09:41Okay.
09:42Senator Murphy, I'd like to turn to you.
09:44Some elements of your Democratic Party were alienated by Biden's approach to Gaza.
09:49They wanted more pressure put on the Israeli government's military campaign on humanitarian
09:54grounds.
09:55You have spoken, indeed, about that.
09:58Under Trump, there's now a ceasefire and a framework for the future.
10:02What do you see Democrats now, within this structure, being able to do to help push Gaza
10:08on a path toward peace, reconciliation, reconstruction?
10:10Well, is there a ceasefire?
10:13Hundreds of Gazans have been killed since the announcement.
10:16Israel still reserves the right and, in fact, is potentially making plans to go back in with
10:22a new significant deadly ground invasion.
10:26Our critique has been that the President, I think, has been engineering for press releases
10:33and banners, not actual substance.
10:36There is an alternative to the rushed Board of Peace, which excludes some of our most important
10:43allies.
10:44The reason that it's very difficult to get our friends in Europe to sign up for a project
10:49as essential as this is because our President has engaged in a consistent campaign to alienate
10:56our friends in Europe.
10:57There was an alternative to stay closer to Europe so that when we needed them at a moment
11:02like this, they were there for us.
11:04The question is, is the President going to use leverage that he has over the Israeli government
11:11to make sure that the very difficult decisions to open up avenues for reconstruction and humanitarian
11:18relief to put the next step of Palestinian input into the governance authority in place,
11:25is he going to use that leverage?
11:27Right now it seems as if he uses leverage to make announcements, to issue plans, to convene
11:34sort of partial boards of allies, but not using that leverage to actually bend the political
11:42will inside Israel to get us to the next phase.
11:46Foreign Minister, I'd like to take it back to you.
11:49We were mentioning timetables earlier, you know, in the realm of this deal.
11:53I'd like to ask you about your own timetables now because, and the next step is on the Palestinian
11:58side.
11:59We've talked about Hamas disarming, the Palestinian authority also needs to reform, which is something
12:04that you have been talking about for so long.
12:07When will you get to the point when you can take over Gaza's governance?
12:11Are you talking about time frames?
12:14Yes, and we're ready because we've been thinking about the day after in Gaza for some time.
12:19We're not starting today.
12:21And we've had the plans, we've had plans that were endorsed by the Arab League, the Muslim
12:25world and the international community at large.
12:28So what needs to happen is for the Palestinian government to be empowered, to be able to take
12:37its responsibilities.
12:39Today the Palestinian government is marginalized.
12:42And you cannot continue marginalizing a government because whatever transpires in Gaza would be
12:48very much related to whatever happens on the West Bank.
12:51If you talk about a population registry, you need to go to the West Bank.
12:55If you talk about issuing passports, you need to go to the West Bank.
12:58So you might as well bring in the Palestinian authority early on rather than in the middle
13:03of the process or at the end of the process.
13:06Trust has been eroding among Palestinians amid all of this that you have described in the
13:11occupied West Bank.
13:13And trust in the Palestinian authority.
13:16political alienation is also on the rise.
13:19There's an increasing number of the population refusing to identify with any faction.
13:25Can you bring people together?
13:26I'd like to ask you, you know, is it even possible on the short term?
13:30Yes, it's possible, and we need to keep that hope alive.
13:34Because the numbers are pretty stark when you look at the polling.
13:37We need to keep the hope alive because we cannot go into desperation.
13:42The Palestinians need to see something moving on the political front.
13:45We are tired from being seen with a humanitarian lens.
13:49The humanitarian lens needs a political track.
13:52And if Palestinians start seeing a future at the end of the tunnel, then they will rally
13:58behind the leadership.
13:59But if this leadership is not being able to deliver, and it is the peace camp that is unable
14:04to deliver, then of course the leadership will be marginalized and its reputation going down.
14:10I'd like to ask you a little bit more about governance, Mr. Mladenov, and I know you also
14:16wanted to talk about the International Stabilization Force, I saw you signaling for me earlier.
14:21Let's talk about the Palestinian National Committee for the Administration of Gaza.
14:26This is the technocratic body that's meant to move in, and they're currently operating out of Cairo.
14:33What needs to happen before they can operate in Gaza, and how much power will they have
14:39to decide the future of the Palestinian people, with all these layers of oversight and governance?
14:45There are no layers of oversight and governance.
14:46The Board of Peace?
14:47The layers of support, guidance and assistance to the committee.
14:51The committee is not the bottom layer of a system, it is the spearhead of what is required
15:00to actually give the people of Gaza a new hope, as you said, for the future.
15:05Now, for them to go into Gaza, a number of conditions need to be met.
15:08And we've already started working with them with all sides.
15:11One, Hamas needs to transfer the civilian control of the institutions in Gaza.
15:15And this is not an easy process.
15:17This requires a little bit more careful planning, it requires monitoring and verification for us
15:22to be able to make sure that this is done in a proper way.
15:26This is not a government coming in after an election.
15:29This is far much more complicated, because Hamas has been governing Gaza for 20 years,
15:34and changing Palestinian laws and implementing policies that are not in line with Palestinian legislation.
15:40Secondly, we need to make sure that what is happening now with the violations of the ceasefire stops.
15:47Because if you put the committee tomorrow in Gaza and the violations of the ceasefire continue the way
15:53they are now, we're only embarrassing the committee and ultimately making it ineffective.
15:57Thirdly, we need to see a radical increase in the assistance to people.
16:03Aid going into Gaza, materials that have been long needed, temporary housing, tents, caravans,
16:11medicine, food, everything that is required needs to change so people can quickly see
16:17some change, some basic change in their lives.
16:19Sorry, but there are a couple of other conditions as well.
16:22We need to make sure that the committee has the resources, of course, to be able to do this.
16:27And finally, we need to make sure that we have the framework agreed in place on the decommissioning
16:36of weapons in Gaza. And here comes my answer to the ISF question. The ISF question is very,
16:41the ISF is extremely important, the security force, but far more important than the ISF,
16:46far more important is the new Palestinian security force that should be deployed in Gaza,
16:54that should be able to secure the ground with the assistance of the ISF. Because if we are relying
17:00on international troops, no matter where they come from, to police Gaza, we have a very wrong
17:08approach to this. And this is not the approach that we have.
17:10I have just a quick question for you now. And I just want to change gears for a second,
17:14because I understand you'll be in Washington next week, the Board of Peace will be meeting.
17:18Trump is set to announce a multi-billion dollar fund for Gaza.
17:23There are demands for this fund to be controlled by the UN, we're hearing from some diplomats.
17:31Who should control the cash?
17:32There are different... First of all, it's not cash.
17:37The money.
17:38And secondly, there are a number of instruments. There's a World Bank trust fund that is being
17:45created to manage assistance for Gaza. We're looking now at three priorities. Firstly,
17:52humanitarian aid, because that is what is immediately needed. Secondly, is emergency recovery on the ground.
17:59And thirdly, security. Because none of the ideas that are out there of how Gaza can be rebuilt
18:06in the future can even begin to materialize until Gaza is one. And right now it's not one,
18:12and you have the security problem related to the weapons there. So for the conditions to be in place,
18:19for Gaza to be reconstructed, if you wish, and redeveloped in a way that is sustainable,
18:27one, we need to have the committee in, effectively governing. Two, we need to have the process of
18:33decommissioning of weapons. And three, we need Israeli withdrawal.
18:35Would the UAE be satisfied by that answer? You know, having given money to the Palestinian
18:42people? And if not, what are the checks and balances that you're going to be looking for
18:46to try and convince you that the money will be stably invested for the benefit of the Palestinian
18:51people? I think we're on board. I think number one on humanitarian support in the last two years,
18:58we put about 45% to all aid going to Gaza. So we're committed. We are sending more and more aid there.
19:06But again, with the money, the more transparent the system is, I think the more comfortable the UAE,
19:12as I'm sure many other donors will be, as soon as we see that sort of transparency and the system of
19:19spending for Gaza is clear, I think. There are so many details yet to be worked out. Foreign Minister,
19:26I'd like to turn to you because, I mean, Europe gives a lot of money to the Palestinians. What would
19:30you be looking for when it comes to how the money is structured, for example, for anti-corruption?
19:36First of all, we want to make sure that Gaza remains being the land of the Palestinians from Gaza,
19:45and that there is no division of the Gaza Strip. The second thing, all the money should go to strengthen
19:53the Palestinian institution. And if there are things working in the West Bank, let's not duplicate them.
19:59Let's try to involve what is being done successfully in the West Bank, and let's bring it to Gaza. Because
20:06what's very important for us is reconstruction must be focused on the people of Gaza, the Palestinians of
20:13Gaza, and not losing sight of our final objective. And the final objective is to give a definitive peace
20:21and stability, and that means to a state solution and putting in place a Palestinian state. Everything
20:27that reinforce that goal, it's good for everyone, including the Israelis and its security. Everything
20:34that goes away from that will do nothing at the end. Let's go back to the glossy future that has been
20:40presented for Gaza. We've all saw the pictures, we saw Kushner, although not addressed in his
20:46presentation in Davos, the guarantees that there should be for Palestinians regarding property rights,
20:52compensation for those who lost homes, businesses, livelihoods, you know, during the war. Have you
20:57gotten any clarity on that since? I don't think there's the clarity that is needed, but
21:03the main issue that we need to put before us is we don't want to engineer a new Gaza. We want a Gaza
21:10that is for its people and for being part and parcel of the whole of Palestine. If we think of a new
21:18Gaza that is divorced from this reality, then we are going into something that is foreign to the terrain and
21:26foreign to the people. Senator Murphy, I'd like to turn to you now. We can't ignore what is happening
21:33in the West Bank. The increasing settler violence, now there's new legislation making it easier for
21:40Jewish settlers to buy land. We have successive governments in the United States which have
21:47failed to reign this in. And this is a major barrier to lasting peace. Why has there been that failure?
21:54Because the United States does have leverage, don't they? You are watching in real time the erasure
22:01of a Palestinian state and we don't any longer have years, we have days and weeks to interrupt what is
22:10happening in the West Bank. This is a critical moment and the president has to use this leverage
22:16that I spoke of, not just to open up humanitarian corridors, not just to make sure that the next
22:21phase is opened up, but to speak truth to power to the Israeli government about how their actions
22:27in the West Bank are shattering a future Palestinian state. I just want to be honest about what's
22:33happening in the United States today with respect to US public opinion. For the first time ever,
22:39the majority of Americans now, Republicans and Democrats, no longer support additional military
22:46aid to Israel. That number, if you are under 30 in the United States, is 16%. Now that's heartbreaking
22:54as someone who has spent his entire life believing in and supporting the state of Israel. But what's
23:01happening in the West Bank to many Americans is just as relevant as what's happening in Gaza. And so
23:08if there is not a change in Israeli behavior in the West Bank, it will threaten the long-term ability
23:15of the United States to support its vital allies. So this is a very important moment for Israel to
23:22maintain support from the American people. And it's not just about what's happening in Gaza. The American
23:28people are watching what's happening with the expansion of the settlements, with the talk of annexation.
23:33And it is part of what is driving both the left and the right away from continued support for our ally Israel.
23:41Mr. Gargosh, I'd like to turn to you next because, you know, Arab states, they signed up for this plan under the
23:46assumption that it is indeed working toward a two-state solution. Do you feel that that is still in the cards? And what sort of
23:53timetable do you think should be expected? And will the, you know, the UAE and others walk away if you feel
24:00that in this process it is not adequately addressed?
24:03I'll echo what the, what the, what the Palestinian Forum Minister said. You have to have a political horizon.
24:13You cannot just work on humanitarian issues without a clear political horizon. And I think this is the
24:21the main understanding of the UAE and other Arab countries, I would say. You have to lead somewhere.
24:29I mean, right now we know we have to address the Gaza issue. And these are, many of them are issues,
24:37part are humanitarian, part are reconstruction, part is Hamas weaponry, part is Israeli occupation of Gaza.
24:45But again, as you deal with these things, if you don't really present the political horizon,
24:51you're just walking in circles, really. So you do need a political horizon.
24:55I'd like to also ask you about not only the political horizon, but also the structures that are in place,
25:01because, you know, it has been highlighted here before that there are Arab countries on the board of
25:06peace, but no Palestinian representation there. How do you see the risk that Arabs on the board will need
25:13to speak for the Palestinians and not the Palestinians themselves?
25:17Well, I think we have to work with the situation that we have right now. I mean,
25:21you have many Arab countries today that are represented, but I think a more, you know,
25:27a more, let's say, equal situation will be for the Palestinians to have their voice. And they have to
25:33have their voice not only on the board of peace, but everywhere, because this is, I think,
25:38they are one of the principles as much as the Israelis are. This is essential, in my opinion.
25:42Do you have confidence that, you know, Arab and other member states of the board of peace will
25:47stand up to Trump if progress on the two-state solution does not materialize?
25:51We have confidence in the Arab world, and the Arab world is our backbone. But we need to be around
25:57the table, because enough of people talking about us, implementing for us, planning for us, without us.
26:05It's about time that we speak for ourselves.
26:07What do you think Gaza will be one year from now?
26:13I hope it will be governed by the transitional administration of the committee.
26:19I hope we will be able to do that in cooperation with the Palestinian Authority, because that is
26:25critically important, as the minister said. I hope that we will be significantly advanced on deploying a
26:34new security force of Palestinians inside Gaza, and Hamas would have given up a significant part of
26:45its weapons, so that we are moving forward to the point at which Israel can withdraw from the yellow line.
26:53These are conditions that I think are critical, if we are ever to return back to the political resolution
27:00of the Palestinian question. Because the political resolution of the Palestinian question requires
27:05negotiations, it requires one Palestinian leadership over the entire occupied territory,
27:11and it requires a dialogue that is facilitated, not overseen, but facilitated by the United States,
27:18Europe and others, as it has been in the past. But to be able to do that, we need to see what is
27:25written in the resolution materialized. And the resolution is not just about Gaza. The resolution includes
27:30the requirement for the Palestinian Authority to undertake significant reforms, and for Gaza,
27:36at the end of the transition period, to be handed back to the Palestinian Authority and return to the
27:41political questions. This is the framing of the resolution, and this is, I think, on what we all agree.
27:46We have time for just some quick remarks before opening it up to the floor.
27:49A foreign minister. How do you see Spain's role, just briefly, in helping with reconstruction?
27:55We are going to continue in the path that we are supporting the Palestinian Authority. We do it
28:00financially. This year we have given 50 million to the Palestinian Authority. We are ready to help with
28:05the reconstruction, and we are ready to help with a genuine peace. But we, once again, we have to make sure
28:12that we all give the same content to the world peace. That means a Palestinian-led process,
28:19Gaza is for the Gazati people and for no one else, and we give them the living condition for that. Under
28:27those conditions, we are ready to be there.
28:29Senator Murphy, you mentioned fatigue over this issue in the United States. You have midterms,
28:35you have other issues coming up, there are other hot spots in the world. How do you see keeping the
28:39focus and keeping the public focused on this in the US?
28:44I think it is incredibly important that we see real progress in the short term. You obviously
28:49have an enormously difficult job, but the humanitarian situation continues to be morally
28:55unacceptable. Once again, I really worry about the long-term health of the US-Israel relationship
29:02if we don't see real meaningful progress in the clearing of rubble, in the delivery of
29:10humanitarian and medical aid, the construction of actual real permanent shelters in which people
29:16can live. You know, this is going to be critical for the United States to continue to build support
29:23for the ultimate very expensive reconstruction project. I think the other quick thing to mention
29:27is that it's got to be done in a transparent way, right? We have watched our president hand projects
29:33to cronies and to friends to waste and abuse taxpayer dollars. If there's going to be a request that the
29:40Congress put forward substantial money into Gaza, it's going to have to be administered through a forum in
29:48which we know there are not favors being doled out to the president's friends.
29:52Mr. Gargash, I'd like to ask you, how hopeful are you with all the moving parts that you're seeing that
29:59that this will become a region of peace? We always have to be hopeful. I think that is the...
30:05What is the state of your personal hope right now? That's the cornerstone, I think, of working as a
30:11diplomat, is to be hopeful. I mean, the challenges are many, but I think bringing also
30:19bringing relief to people who are suffering, trying to find political solutions, being able to help
30:26in issues like these are what keeps us going. I mean, this is going to remain being a very difficult
30:34region. I think the Palestinian issue is also at core. So addressing that Palestinian issue
30:42does not mean that you resolve all of the region's issues, but it's very central and very important
30:49to do that. I think we have to be very hopeful and continue, although it's sometimes very difficult,
30:55to be honest. What is your level of confidence that this is the plan that works? Or are we here
31:01again in another 10, 20 years still talking about lasting peace? I hope we are not here next year
31:06talking about peace, but it needs a lot of teeth and a lot of work. The Palestinian leadership's
31:14message is constant on the viability of a state that lives in peace and security with its neighbors,
31:19and we all need to work towards that end. Okay. Thank you so much to all of our panelists. We're
31:25going to open it up now to the floor. We have a first comment coming from the former foreign minister
31:30of the state of Israel, Sipi Livni, and perhaps some food for thought, you know, to get your response to
31:38what we've heard about plans for Gaza's future, how you see Israel's security concerns being addressed,
31:43and perhaps you can also address the fears among some that Israel may be preparing to resume
31:50full-scale military operations in the territory. Thank you. I believe that there is an opportunity
31:55here, an opportunity that can turn into a danger to both the Israeli and Palestinians,
32:03and the only way to continue and to create a better future for both is by stop thinking in terms of
32:14supporting the Palestinians or Israel. There's a win-win situation or win-win way of thinking,
32:25and therefore those of you just speaking, not just speaking about the situation in Gaza,
32:33without taking care of Israel's security, this will lead to a situation, to a danger
32:42to the Palestinians in Gaza as well for Israelis. The only way to move forward is also by having a joint
32:53understanding and action plan of the moderates or the pragmatics in the region against the extremists.
33:03And it's clear, especially after October 7th, that Hamas cannot stay in power, that it should be
33:11demilitarized, and Gaza should be demilitarized, by the way, as was agreed also in the past when we
33:18negotiated peace with the Palestinians. There is no hope for peace with them. They do not represent
33:26any national cause of the Palestinians because they represent this religious jihadist ideology.
33:34And we should learn from past experience. Israel quit Gaza Strip in 2005.
33:40Israel dismantled all the settlements in Gaza. Israel hoped that the Palestinian Authority will take
33:48over, but Hamas took over. And the Palestinian Authority didn't have enough power to replace
33:55Hamas. And I believe that part of the responsibility of the pragmatics is to strengthen the Palestinian
34:01Palestinian Authority against Hamas. And therefore we cannot afford another situation where Hamas is
34:10taking over or reaching an agreement that they will be part of a future government in Gaza.
34:21Because when they took over in 2006, the entire international community agreed that if a Palestinian
34:28government want to be legitimate want to be legitimate, they need to accept the Oslo agreement and to
34:35renounce violence and terrorism. And this is more than true, especially after October 7th today.
34:42So, yes, it's not just about Gaza. And I do not represent here the Israeli government, but I do
34:49represent here the Israelis who want to live in peace with the Palestinians that are not thinking about
34:58expansion of settlements or building new settlements in Gaza. But I'm also the one that negotiated peace
35:05in the future. And unfortunately, Abu Mazen was not willing or didn't have the courage to say yes to a plan.
35:12I'm not entering into a blame game, trust me. This is not the reason that I'm mentioning this.
35:18But we need to learn from past experience. And the price that all of us paid during all these years is
35:26too high not to learn from past experience.
35:30I think that there will be a response to that from the panel. And I would like to integrate it also with the
35:35first question from the audience. So I would encourage people to raise their hands so I can
35:42get a sense of who might have questions in the room. And we'll begin right here.
35:52Thank you very much for an interesting panel. My name is Koth Piri, a member of parliament in the
35:56Netherlands. I have a question. No one mentioned the word accountability or justice. So I wonder
36:03when will there be justice for the crimes that have been committed? I think all the perpetrators
36:11of 7th of October mostly are killed. What about the perpetrators of the genocide? Thank you.
36:18Mr. Mladenov, would you like to take that one?
36:21Look, my focus now really is entirely centered on how we can make sure that the tragedy that Gaza is
36:32does not continue a day longer than it has until now. And I'm sorry to say but Munich is very far
36:40from the reality of what people are living with in Gaza right now. And that's why I want to get back
36:47to what I said in the beginning. Our focus needs to be on making sure that the people of Gaza receive
36:55the aid that they require right now, that we put in transparent, accountable indeed institutions of
37:01governance in Gaza that they have not had for 20 years. And that we make sure that there are no weapons
37:09beyond the control of the transitional authority in Gaza. Because if we continue this, if anyone in
37:14this panel or in this room believes that we can move forward or anyone gains... When does the accountability
37:20part though come in? I think that was the question. When does it come in? By Hamas staying in control of
37:26Gaza, please let me know. Please let me know. That is my focus now. All the questions related to the
37:33political process, to what happened on October 7th, to what led to October 7th, to what happened after
37:38October 7th, right now, are not in my remit. And that is why I want to stay within what I need to
37:44focus on, because we're dealing with human lives right now. We're really dealing with human lives
37:48and we need to understand this. And again, if anyone in this panel or in this room believes that there
37:53is a future for Israelis and Palestinians, with Hamas in government in Gaza, with their weapons under
37:59their control, please let me know. There was a question right here in the front and then, you know,
38:04we'll ask two questions. Thank you very much. I'm the Assistant Secretary General of the Arab League.
38:13I'm very encouraged by the panel and what was said about the way forward in Gaza, but I think most of
38:22us would agree that Gaza in itself is not the issue. The issue is the political horizon for the whole
38:30Palestinian question. I heard, for instance, what Minister Livni said, and I know this is shared
38:38in wide circles in Israel, but they also have to ask themselves why we reached this stage.
38:46The ruling coalition in Israel right now has succeeded effectively in taking us back
38:53back to prior Madrid before 1991. That is very significant. So we need to, yeah, you need me to
39:02ask a question, right? I didn't have a question. I had a comment and I think it is warranted. So my
39:10question, my comment really is, at the end, I would say, let us focus, let us focus, led by the United States,
39:20because I still believe, I'm among many who still believe that it is the United States power that
39:27would be needed in order to bring things forward. Mr. Barghouti.
39:35Yes, thank you. I want to agree with Senator Murphy that about the urgency of the moment,
39:41I feel sometimes we are living in a bubble of illusion. While we are talking, the Israeli
39:49government has declared that the whole West Bank is available for settlements, and they practically
39:57nailed the last nail in the coffin of the Oslo Agreement in front of the whole world. And it is the
40:02Prime Minister of Israel who declared that Israel will be from the river to the sea, including Gaza.
40:09And it is the Israeli finance minister who declared that they will come back to Gaza and resettle there,
40:16and Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed. In this situation, it's not just about the
40:21accountability for genocide, which is a very good question. Also, who's going to pressure Israel to
40:27stop the process of killing the very last option of two states? Is there someone to whom you'd like to
40:33direct that question? Perhaps Chris Murphy? Well, listen, I mean, our own intelligence agencies tell us
40:42that the net results of Israel's military activity in Gaza has been essentially meaningless with respect to
40:56the eradication of Hamas fighters. Essentially, just as many have joined as have been killed. And it is a
41:04reminder that we can have this conversation every decade about the reconstruction of Gaza after a major
41:12military activity from Israel, or we can make a decision to prioritize a future in which the Palestinians have a
41:21home of their own. And so this has to be a centerpiece of American policy. I will agree that we need to
41:27lead. This administration has not led, but we cannot give up. But I think the administration needs to
41:33understand that time is of the essence. I'm going to turn around because I haven't been able to see
41:36behind me if there were any questions or any hands. And if not, I did see a question right here.
41:43Yeah. And please do ask a question if you would. No, no, it is a question. Thank you.
41:50I'm the director of the Carnegie Middle East Center in Beirut. Nicolai, for you, it's called the
41:56Board of Peace. So while I applaud the focus on, you know, the immediate humanitarian addressing the
42:04disastrous conditions, I think maybe this needs to be part of a larger political horizon.
42:10Yeah. At least taking that into account. It's not enough to say the here and now and the urgency
42:17of the moment, I think Mustafa and many of the speakers have already referred to. So my question
42:23to all of you is what, what can be done? What are you willing to do to, what leverage are you willing
42:31to use to start building the blocks for something really that is called peace?
42:37I think I'd have to give that to you again. I fully agree. I fully agree with you. What I'm saying
42:45is that there are two ways of looking at it. Can we fix the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and end up
42:52with a two-state solution if we're looking at the politics at the top without looking at what's
42:57happening on the ground? Or do we need to fix the situation on the ground in order to enable
43:04the conclusion of what needs to happen at the top? And right now we have such a disastrous situation in
43:12Gaza. Such a disastrous situation that if we allow collectively it to, to be cemented under the
43:20current conditions in which it is not just Gaza being divided from the West Bank, it is Gaza itself
43:26being divided into two parts. If we cement that division, please tell me how we get from that
43:32to a two-state solution because I can't see the pathway. And that is why we need to make sure that,
43:37you know, one, Gaza is, you know, we often talk about having one governance, one legal system,
43:46and one system of controlling weapons in Gaza. And I always add to that, we need one Gaza for that.
43:52And that is why we need to start with, you know, making sure that Hamas is out of the governance,
43:56that there's a transitional civilian authority in place in order to be able to
44:01normalize the situation on the ground in order to have what is really required, as you said,
44:11a political solution to the conflict. But under the current conditions, with Hamas still in Gaza,
44:17and Gaza divided into two, we're setting ourselves up for complete and utter failure if we don't
44:24address that. And that failure will be, the price of that failure will be paid both by Palestinians and
44:30Israelis down the line. And with those words, we conclude our panel,
44:35Life Under Destruction, Building Blocks for a New Gaza. Thank you so much to all of you,
44:39and thank you so much to the audience.
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