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Europe Today entrevista a Varoufakis sobre el debate de los eurobonos en la cumbre informal de los líderes de la UE
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00:14Good morning, it is Thursday the 12th of February. I'm Maeve McMahan and this is Europe Today.
00:22Your daily dose of European news and analysis live here on Euronews.
00:27Coming up, EU Retreat Day is here. European Heads of State and Government are spending this
00:33Thursday in the middle of the Belgian countryside in a 16th century castle. Despite the beautiful
00:39backdrop, the ghosts of the past will haunt them. On the agenda, the same debate about
00:44Euro bonds and a bi-European rule that's been going round in circles for years. Mario Draghi
00:49and Enrico Leto will also be on site offering their tips on how the EU can compete with
00:55the US and China. But the big debate remains over who should pay.
01:00For more on this informal summit, which in EU jargon means there will be no formal conclusions,
01:04we're joined here in the studio by our EU news editor, Maria Tadeo, before she makes her
01:09way to that very gathering. Good morning, Maria. Just a reminder of yours, what is at stake today?
01:14Well, Maeve, it is an informal summit, but to some extent, there is very little informal
01:18about it. And it is very intentional, because when we spoke with the president of the European
01:23Council, Antonio Costa, and he told us on Euronews, yes, this gathering will take place,
01:28and Mario Draghi will be invited. Of course, Mario Draghi, just to give a background, some
01:33context to our viewers, this is a man who is highly influential in the European diplomatic
01:38circles. Everyone who's important to that extent, or who's someone who would like to think I am
01:44someone in this space, in the capitals here in Brussels, but also just in the overall sphere
01:49of European policy making, reads every speech and every word that he says. So he will participate
01:54in this meeting. But going back to Antonio Costa, he told us clearly, we need to come out of this
01:59with new impetus. We need clear political guidance from the capitals and the member states.
02:04Last year, we focused a lot on security. This year, we need to focus on the European economy,
02:09on competitiveness, and really bolster the single market. And that has to be intentional.
02:14So in a way, the value of this informal gathering today is the sequence that it could kickstart
02:19to reorient the European economy. We're starting to see, of course, the different groups that
02:24are emerging. Emmanuel Macron, obviously, yes, he is much weaker at home, and he's seen better
02:29times in domestic policies, but he still knows how to make a headline, how to make news,
02:34but also how to kickstart debates. He gave an interview to the European press at the start
02:38of the week saying, we need now this capability, this capacity to borrow collectively.
02:43Obviously, that means Eurobonds. He's putting on the table more Europe, a Europe that is able
02:47to protect. He joked yesterday, whenever you hear a French guy say protection, you go,
02:52oh, protectionism. But trust me, it's not the case. But of course, for others, it sounds
02:56a lot like my companies and Europe. And that's very much it. The other side to the story is Germany,
03:04the Belgians, also Italy on this camp who argue, look, ultimately, these are very intellectual
03:09debates. We cannot do everything at once all the time. The way to fix the European economy
03:14is to really channel through the industry. And that means more leniency when it comes to targets,
03:19a pragmatic approach to climate. And let's just throw everything at the European industry
03:24and provide the tools they need, including lowering energy prices. So a lot more pragmatic.
03:28Indeed. So we should expect a big battle today, just briefly.
03:31Look, we should expect a big battle. Obviously, the question of the Eurobonds, however,
03:35it's not shocking to me, because ultimately, the point of this meeting is to talk about
03:40the report largely that Mario Draghi put out. The big question that he stated in this report was,
03:45if we talk about an independent Europe, what does that mean? It means it's a Europe that can
03:48protect itself with a strong economy and can set out its own policy. To do that,
03:53he said there is an investment gap of around 800 billion euros a year. The question is,
03:58how do you pay it? He talked about private and public money. But the question of the funding
04:02and the financing to that extent is inevitable. The value of this meeting is a sequence that
04:07it will kickstart. It will go into March, I'm pretty sure. And by the summer, something's
04:11got to give.
04:11Indeed. Maria Tadale, thank you so much for that. And of course, for more on that retreat,
04:17we'll have a live blog running all day on Euronews. Maria will be there on location
04:21with a number of other Euronews reporters. But now, while everyone here in Brussels
04:25may have heard of Mario Draghi and he may be highly respected and regarded here,
04:29not everyone remembers exactly why he's so famous. Here's Jakub Janus with a quick refresher.
04:36Meet Super Mario, a former Italian prime minister, ex-head of the European Central Bank, and a man
04:44currently spinning the threads of Europe's fate. You don't believe me? Just listen to that.
04:49Do we remain merely a large market, subject to the priorities of others? Or do we take the steps
04:56necessary to become one power?
04:59So why is this retired banker suddenly the most important man in Europe?
05:05During the 2012 financial crisis, he famously promised to do whatever it takes to save the Euro.
05:12And his policies save the currency you're using now every day. But the price was high.
05:18He was the face of austerity. And if you are from Southern Europe, you know exactly the meaning
05:25behind cuts, unemployment, and a legendary battle with his nemesis, Greek minister Yanis Varoufakis.
05:32And Varoufakis wanted to end the belt tightening measures. But our Mario simply pulled the plug
05:38on Greek banks to force a deal. Level 2.
05:42Fast forward to 2026. The EU is losing the competitiveness game against the US and China.
05:49But Mario's new power-up is called Pragmatic Federalism? Or in translation, Two-Speed Europe.
05:56So, if 27 EU members cannot agree, the willing ones should run ahead, united by common borrowing to fund defense
06:05and tech.
06:07And just like in a video game, our Mario is arriving today at a real castle, Alden Basin, in Belgium.
06:15And he is on a mission to convince 27 leaders to share the credit card bill.
06:21But here is the glitch. Our Mario can write the cheat codes, but he's not the one holding the controller.
06:28The European leaders are...
06:30And remember, in a video game, if you lose, you just press restart.
06:35But in the real economy, there is no such a button.
06:38So, will he do whatever it takes to save the princess?
06:42We are about to find out.
06:49Jakob Yanis there on how Mario Draghi may be a superhero to some, but to others, he is a man
06:54of the banks and a technocrat.
06:55For another view coming up, we will be joined by The Economist and author Yanis Varoufakis, Greece's former finance minister,
07:02who had many moments with Mario Draghi while he was in office 10 years ago.
07:06Today, Yanis Varoufakis leads a left-wing pan-European political party that he co-founded back in 2016 called Democracy
07:14in Europe Movement.
07:15Good morning, Mr Varoufakis. Thank you so much for joining us.
07:19Look, this retreat is happening today, and the European Union needs new momentum to bolster competitiveness. How?
07:29Exactly in the opposite direction of the one that they are travelling along.
07:34I'm afraid that, yet again, we have a summit where our great and good European leaders
07:40spectacularly fail to talk about the one thing they should be talking about.
07:43You heard all this discussion about euro bonds. It's another word for Europe borrowing money, which is something that I
07:50have been advocating now for decades.
07:52But when reasonable people have a discussion about issuing debt, shouldn't the first question be who on earth is going
08:01to be issuing the debt?
08:02Because, you know, we don't have a federal government in Europe. We have federal money. And this is our tragedy.
08:08We have a great central bank, a monolith of a central bank, and we have, you know, 20 treasuries that
08:15can't really rely on it.
08:17And at the same time, we don't have a treasury at the federal level looking after or supporting the role
08:24of the central bank.
08:25It is such a terrible design. And nobody's discussing the basic question that oozes out of Mario Draghi's report and
08:33out of what some of us have been saying now for decades.
08:36And it is this. Have you read the Mario Draghi report or not? Are we going to federate or not?
08:40That is the question.
08:41Because if they do not federate, they can't really seriously talk about euro bonds, which is, you know, federal debt.
08:49And have you read the Mario Draghi report, the 400 pages?
08:52Of course.
08:53And which camp are you in? You're clearly in the camp then who wants more Europe and not those who
08:58want to ditch the rules.
09:00Look, I'm putting it very, very simply to my fellow Europeans.
09:05It was a mistake to create federal money without a federation.
09:08The result has been the spectacular drop in investment, the stagnation, which is causing the lack of competitiveness.
09:17So we have two choices. We are at the fork on the road.
09:21We can move in the direction of federation or we can disband the euro.
09:26Unfortunately, the third choice is the one that our leaders are making, that is neither nor.
09:33And when you choose neither nor, you end up falling in between two stools.
09:37So are you not in favour then of this idea of the multi-speed Europe that von der Leyen has
09:42been floating?
09:43Could it be the end of the 27 as we know it?
09:46Mrs. von der Leyen is proving very adept at coming up with sort of phrases that sound like a solution
09:56when they are simply a manifestation of a failure.
10:02But she's teasing another round of deregulation. The Polish are saying the same.
10:05That is the way the EU is heading inevitably. What is your view on that?
10:10It's great. It's like rearranging deck chairs in the Titanic.
10:14You know, maybe they were not arranged properly. Maybe we need deregulation.
10:18But the reason why Europe is stagnating, the reason why Germany is de-industrialising, the reason why Europe is fragmenting
10:27in front of, on the one hand, the United States and on the other hand, China, is because we haven't
10:33had any investment for 20 years.
10:35And we haven't had any investment because we have created the monetary system, the euro, which is federal in its
10:42monetary structure, but it doesn't have a fiscal and investment dimension pillar to support it.
10:48So it's a very bad design. And unfortunately, our great leaders are going into a retreat in a castle with
10:56a moat.
10:56And the only one thing they will discuss is that actually the only one thing that they will not discuss
11:02is the thing that they should discuss.
11:04Do they want to create a federal treasury and to change the structure of the European Union from a confederacy
11:11that is not working and failing Europe to a federation?
11:14That is the question.
11:15Well, that is the big question.
11:16That is the big question they're reflecting over today in the Belgian countryside.
11:20But you're clearly not a fan of EU leadership today.
11:23But just when it comes to your leadership, when you were in office, we had an interesting question on social
11:27media from a viewer,
11:28which is quite reflective on your time and power, reflecting on the book that Alexis Tsipras wrote, saying that your
11:33proposals were often, quote, unrealistic or delusional.
11:37How do you respond, Mr Varoufakis, to these criticisms today?
11:40And how do you assess your own responsibility for the outcomes of that period?
11:45Ten years ago, I put to Mario Draghi, to Christine Lagarde, to Wolfgang Schäuble, to the European leadership at the
11:52time, a very simple proposition that either we could continue with socialism for the bankers,
11:57that is printing money for big business and austerity for the many, which would cause a deindustrialization in the end
12:04even of Germany, or we would have to move in the direction that even Mario Draghi is now advocating now,
12:15not ten years ago.
12:17And they made the wrong choice.
12:19Okay.
12:19I think I was right in what I was advocating back then.
12:21Okay.
12:22Mr Varoufakis, thank you so much for joining us this morning on Europe Today.
12:26See you very soon.
12:28Well, now, EU leaders are locking heads, of course, on fixing the EU economy, but they're also nervous about the
12:33never-ending war in Ukraine.
12:34February 24th will mark four years since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, a date that was rumored
12:40in the media as the day President Zelensky would announce fresh elections, something he has clarified and rejected.
12:46For more, Sasha Vakilina, our Ukraine correspondent, joins me here on set.
12:52So, Sasha, President Zelensky said no elections are on the table.
12:54Tell us very sharply.
12:56He said there is no intention to announce any elections or, in fact, anything political on the 24th.
13:00He also said that this is the first time he heard about it was from the media reports.
13:05He did confirm that this issue has been raised numerous times by Ukraine's partners, specifically by the United States, but
13:11he said this is not something that is floated in Ukraine.
13:14Let's take a look at what he said regarding Ukraine's intentions.
13:18He said we are ready for elections.
13:19I said it is very simple to do.
13:22We'll do it when all the relevant security guarantees are in place.
13:25Make a ceasefire.
13:26There will be elections.
13:27That's it.
13:28It's a matter of security.
13:30He also added that there is no link between the U.S. security guarantees and the elections.
13:35Because this is another speculation that we saw in the media reports.
13:38He said, no, the United States is not threatening to withdraw or withhold any security guarantees in exchange for the
13:44election.
13:44And he also said it's going to be very foolish to use the date of the 24th to make any
13:50political statements.
13:51And what about the peace talks, Sasha?
13:54Any update on the talks?
13:55Well, they are continuing and that's probably the best news and the best result of those peace talks.
14:00The next round is expected to be next week.
14:03The format is still to be clarified.
14:06We saw the trilateral talks in Ukraine, Russia and the United States.
14:09So this is expected to be the next format as well.
14:12But there's not much hope regarding the result.
14:15Now, your new sources at NATO in Brussels said, for example, that one of the main topics at the meetings
14:21this week at NATO,
14:22including the Defence Minister's meeting on Thursday today, is to have the better visibility regarding the Ukraine Pearl programme
14:29and to have the visibility from six months to up to one year.
14:32That's your answer about the expectations on the peace talks and the results.
14:35Okay, Sasha, Vakilina, thank you so much, as always, for all those updates.
14:39And as the clock ticks down to all those deadlines, the clock is also ticking to a very important date
14:44in the EU agenda.
14:45That's the Hungarian elections.
14:46Just two months to go until Hungary's April election, where incumbent Prime Minister Viktor Orban is running again.
14:54Viktor Orban has repeatedly clashed with EU counterparts on migration and the war in Ukraine.
15:00And this campaign is no different.
15:01Viktor Orban is planning a visit to see Mr. Trump, President Trump next week for the Board of Peace event.
15:07But meanwhile, back home, the campaign is getting heated.
15:10For more on this election.
15:11And who else is running?
15:12We're joined now by Sándor Giros, our Hungarian correspondent.
15:16Good morning.
15:17So this election is getting quite heated.
15:19Tell us more.
15:20And who's running?
15:21Well, surprisingly, the opposition party TISA, which is led by Peter Magyar, is leading in the polls with 7 to
15:2810 percent ahead of Viktor Orban's Fidesz party.
15:32And this is unprecedented because Viktor Orban was in power since 15 years and his winning elections was never in
15:39question.
15:40But now we have a very, very strong and very aggressive opposition party.
15:44Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that the race is done.
15:47Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that the race is done.
15:48Fidesz can win.
15:49TISA can win.
15:50There is a large amount of undecided voters.
15:53And, you know, the campaign is heating up.
15:55TISA party released this election manifesto, which is full of promises related to the cost of the living crisis and
16:01inflation.
16:01They promised tax cuts.
16:04They promised family benefits, pension rights.
16:07And also Viktor Orban continues to highlight his foreign policy agenda, namely targeting Ukraine.
16:15And he went on with a very aggressive wording over the weekend.
16:19Let's maybe take a look at what he said.
16:22Ukraine is damaging our elementary interest by constantly demanding and inciting Brussels to do so, that Hungary be cut off
16:30from cheap Russian energy.
16:32Anyone who does this is not an opponent of Hungary, but an enemy.
16:36Viktor Orban there.
16:37And Peter Meyer, who's leading the polls, has said, quote, the governing party, Fidesz, could release a compromising video to
16:43discredit Viktor Orban, or to discredit him.
16:45What exactly does that mean, Shander? And what does it say about the campaign?
16:49Well, Peter Meyer said that there is a secretly recorded sex tape with him and his former girlfriend that the
16:58government forces are using to blackmail him.
17:01And here I have to quote Peter Meyer because he said that I suspect that they are planning to release
17:06a secret service recorded and possibly doctored recording of me and my then girlfriend having an intimate encounter.
17:15There is also a picture circulating online showing an empty room with a bed.
17:20This might be possibly related to this sex tape, but we don't know anything about this sex tape.
17:25This hasn't have not been released. We just see this picture.
17:29We don't know if this is a media hack or not, but this tells one thing that this Hungarian electoral
17:35campaign is so special.
17:38It's it's so aggressive. It's going to be full of personal attacks.
17:41It's going to be full of, you know, full of hate and and videos.
17:47And in the coming months we have we will see more and more of this.
17:53And then Prime Minister Viktor Orbán also said that in the last phase of the election, in the last days
17:59of the electoral campaigns, they will have released something on the opposition.
18:04So they they will have some munition against the opposition that they are willing to use.
18:09OK, Sándor Giros, so we should expect a lot of dirty laundry to surface in the next couple of weeks
18:14and months into that election.
18:15Thank you so much for that update. Sándor Giros there, our Hungarian correspondent.
18:20And of course, for more on the EU leaders retreat taking place today, you can follow our live blog on
18:25Euronews.
18:26And by the way, if you're interested in the topic of managing migration, you can watch a very fiery debate
18:32from Strasbourg on the Ring.
18:34But that does bring this edition of Europe Today to an end.
18:37Thank you so much, as always, for your company.
18:39Any comments, points for us, do reach out to us either on social media or you can drop us an
18:44email.
18:45EuropeToday at Euronews.com. That is our email address.
18:47Take care, though, and see you very soon right here on Euronews.
19:41Euronews.com.
19:44mentors at Euronews.com.
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