- 17 hours ago
Episode 7: The world amid U.S. imperialist attacks
Hosted by: Belen de los Santos (teleSUR) and Tianchen Wei (China Academy)
Hosted by: Belen de los Santos (teleSUR) and Tianchen Wei (China Academy)
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00:00Welcome to one more episode of Overlap, this conversations that we're having from across
00:11the world. My name is Berendela Santos here in Havana, Cuba. I'm joined by Tian Chang from China.
00:18Hello, Tian Chang. Hello, Ben. Nice talking to you again on the air. Of course. And one more time
00:23in which we are coming here. And we are coming back to a topic. It seems that 2026 will keep us
00:30conversing and talking about this situation. It is the United States. And we have been seeing
00:37the foreign policy of the United States on its attack on Venezuela just at the beginning of the
00:43year. And also now the threats on Iran, the threats on Greenland, the tensions with Europe at Davos.
00:51We have a lot of different scenarios literally across the map, across the globe. So just to
00:58start, Tian Chang, how is this being perceived from China? Are these isolated events or are you looking
01:05at this as a more general, like new way of exercising power from the United States into this new year?
01:12Yes, I will definitely see all this move as part of a bigger picture. It signals the continuation of
01:24Trump's foreign strategy. As I mentioned last time, in the most recent 2026 national defense strategy
01:33published by the U.S. Department of War, the U.S. emphasized safeguarding its interests in the Western
01:41hemisphere, but it made no clear commitment to scale back its role in the Eastern hemisphere. So it only
01:50signals that the methods of intervention and sanctions may change. What we are saying now is essentially
01:58a continuation of U.S. imperialist foreign strategy. The Trump administration has been very clear about
02:07its goal of establishing a power-based order instead of a rule-based order. Either you are on the table or
02:16you are on the menu. And in this process, I think at this time point, Europe has become the biggest claw,
02:24the greatest idea. The Trump administration has publicly humiliated Europe for multiple times. For example,
02:32in Vance's talk at last year's Munich Security Conference. But European politicians have been unwilling to
02:43accept reality to accept reality. So they are insisting that the U.S. is still their loyal allies.
02:51Only after this time, Trump restated its position at Davos have the European leaders began to gradually
03:00face the facts. However, I think the weakness and the backwardness of the European governments
03:07determined that even they are protesting in some ways now, but they have very limited capability to take
03:15any meaningful countermeasures. For example, in the most recent Greenland reconnaissance mission,
03:23several European states sent only very small numbers of personnel to Greenland. We can look at the
03:29exact figures. France sent about 15 soldiers. Germany, 13. Finland and Sweden sent two each. The UK and the
03:41Netherlands sent one each. So the EU has obviously long been a puppet of the U.S. government. And in the
03:50recent years, I think their operational principle has been America first. So when the U.S. bombs countries
03:59around the world and toppled their governments, Europe not only stayed silenced but sometimes even
04:05conspires in it. So now the U.S. came to threaten Greenland. Europe seems to just woke up and started
04:13to protest in a very weak way. If Europeans still refuse to diversify economically and politically,
04:22that will be devastating for themselves. So I just saw news this week reported that UK Prime Minister
04:31Starmer and also Germany Chancellor Merz are going to visit China next month after the visit by Canada's
04:41colony. I don't think either Canada or Germany or the UK can be considered reliable allies of China, but at
04:49least they are starting to wake up to reality. So they are starting to accept the fact that if they keep
04:57blindly following the U.S., it will leave Europe nowhere. And even now, they are just pretending to
05:05improve religions with China. It is still beneficial for them. So overall, I don't think there has been
05:13any major change in U.S. foreign policy. So the current action is simply an extension of its imperialist
05:22strategy all the time. I'm just going to ask how the Dati America perspective interpreted these moves.
05:29I think there's something about what you were saying regarding these actions being
05:36in the line of the same U.S. strategy, just maybe through different means. And sometimes we are too
05:45focused on like the novelty of the way that Donald Trump is handling this at an international arena.
05:54And definitely, we are at a new stage geopolitically that several world events have changed the
06:02international arena. So I firmly believe that the world is different after Gaza, for example, that it
06:09it pushed some red lines internationally in respect of what can be done in the world and what can't be
06:17done. So we are at a different moment in time. And in that different moment, Donald Trump is taking to
06:25some different ways of addressing this international topics and maybe the headlines and the media outlets
06:32and particularly Western media is too focused on like his character in particular and his style.
06:40But as you were saying, it's actually just a continuum, like the continuity of that strategy
06:48through different ways of addressing it. Now, you were saying it from the Latin American perspective,
06:54of course, this year has been marked by the aggression on Venezuela. It happened on January 3rd. It sort of
07:00changed the perspective right at the beginning of the year. Again, as you were saying, it's a continuity.
07:07The pressure had been mounting since the middle of the year. So we had had like more military presence,
07:15the largest deployment of military vessels in the Caribbean. That was a first for an area that is
07:23considered a zone of peace. And of course, we need to think that also in line with the pressure that has been
07:31mounting for decades regarding the economic warfare, the psychological warfare, the economic blockades,
07:39of course, on Cuba, because it's the longest standing, but also in Venezuela, Nicaragua. So the threats and the
07:48direct actions are not new. Because again, if not, we fall into the trap of thinking that,
07:55oh, Trump went crazy and attacked Latin America for the first time. It is not the first time,
08:00but it is the first time of a bomb attack of this scale of this magnitude, of course,
08:05kidnapping a constitutional precedent with what that means in terms of targeting a government that is
08:14against or not aligning with US strategy. But there is a line, a point of connection within everything
08:26that we were just mentioning and all these different scenarios. It has to do with that strategy that you
08:32were mentioning and that strategy is to refocus, reshape and exert the dominance, consolidate the
08:40dominance of the United States as the major power of the world in a world that is changing. So in a world
08:47where you have emerging multipolarity, where you have strong competitors and areas of the world that are
08:55posing a real threat on that complete dominance of the United States in the world, where in that changing
09:04world, the US is trying to grip itself to its position of power. And it's doing so trying to become the,
09:14of course, sole dominant in the Western Hemisphere. And for that, Latin America is of particular importance.
09:22It was always of particular importance, not only because it's the closest territory, a very significant
09:29territory in terms of trade, in terms of the trade routes, as it has always been for history, the control
09:37of the American continent has to do with the possibility of establishing different trade routes with different
09:44partners because of its wealth in terms of natural resources, many of which that will be determinant in the
09:53coming decades for the production of the new technologies that are now on stake, but also for the energy crisis that
10:03the planet is facing. All of these are different factors for which this territory is of particular significance, but also
10:11because the strategy of the United States seems to point out that if they want to become and to
10:18consolidate themselves, not to lose that position of complete dominance of the world,
10:24they need to first be very well established in this territory that is its closest. And they've always
10:32looked at it this as the closest area of proximity. So that is what we are seeing similarities with the
10:41processes that you were just mentioning with Iran, with Greenland, but with a particular target in the
10:50territory of Latin America. And I think that in that sense, it's not like out of the norm that out of these
10:57threats. The first direct military aggression was done against Latin America. Of course, the military pressure is also
11:06mounting on Iran as well. And it has the continuity of again of targeting power that is presenting itself very far from
11:18aligning with US interests. That is what Iran and that region has in common with the governments that the United States is
11:27targeting in Latin America. The excuses that the United States is using are very different. They are talking,
11:34of course, as always about democracy and supposed freedom and war on drugs. But these excuses also keep on changing.
11:43And they apparently they can be used and tossed depending on the moment. And the thing that maintains
11:51is that the United States is targeting these governments that are not willing to align with their interests.
11:59And those governments that are willing to align with the US interests are being heavily rewarded.
12:06So that is the tactic that they are using rewarding those who will bow down and do whatever the United States
12:14wants even in a colony like way and just directly and very aggressively targeting those who don't.
12:23That is why also Cuba has been once again at the target of the latest announcements of the United States.
12:32It's also the psychological pressure. It was mounting against Venezuela for the past month and they're doing so against Cuba at this moment.
12:42And it's a way of continuing the pressure, the pressure tactic of stating that it's my way or no way, supposedly for the United States.
12:54What we'll need to see is if that actually takes effect and how long can Donald Trump continue this?
13:01Because as you were saying, he did have some minor but some backlash in Europe.
13:09He is facing a lot of backlash, a lot of protests because of the internal situation in the United States itself.
13:18The US is also heading towards a midterm, so election year.
13:23So we'll need to see how long can he continue to push those lines?
13:29Because it not only has a very, it's very costly in terms of the economy.
13:37These warfares that are extending into military action and taking aircraft carriers from one point to the world to the other.
13:46But also it's having a toll on its own population.
13:50So we'll definitely need to see how long they can maintain this.
13:55How are you looking at this?
13:56How are you looking at this different situations that are happening from across the world?
14:01Sure. I think besides the external factors, it definitely plays a big role.
14:08Like the international order is changing completely, like what the Canada Prime Minister Carney just gave the talk at Davos that the world order is gone.
14:21Besides the political issues domestically in the US, you just mentioned like the midterm elections coming.
14:30I think another factor playing now is the economic situation at home in the United States.
14:38Because the economic growth is slowing and the job markets is cooling down, investment, consumption, consumer confidence.
14:50We can see almost all the data are getting worse.
14:54So the social and economic pressure on ordinary Americans are increasing.
15:00So it makes the US government even more eager to divert its domestic tensions through its foreign policy.
15:11So that's one of the reasons why we are seeing unprecedented scale and intensity of all its military or economic sections on the international stage.
15:27So that's what they have been done in the whole U.S. modern history.
15:33If something is going wrong inherently in their system, they will like, oh, let's plan China.
15:40Let's plan Iran. Let's plan Cuba. Let's plan, let's plan, uh, Greenland this time.
15:46Every time when the U.S. economy begins to deteriorate, this is exactly how the government's response.
15:55So that's another major difference I can see at this point.
16:00Super important what you're pointing out, because there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
16:05As you were saying, a lot of the indicators in terms of the domestic life of the United States are worsening or are not improving.
16:15And these are some of the claims that the MAGA movement were campaigning on.
16:21And I think that that is very important, once again, coming back to the situation that the United States is entering an election year.
16:29And I think that that local election, local in the United States, of course, will determine how this continues to play a role in the international arena.
16:40So curiously, the MAGA movement was campaigning on America first, and that was supposed to mean that the interests of the U.S. citizens, their livelihoods, their possibility to tackle economic issues, their possibilities to live better, to access better jobs.
17:00So that would be the primary focus.
17:03And a lot of voters, a lot of the communities that voted for the MAGA movement did it in that sense.
17:12And through the last year, that shifted into the crackdown on migration, that repression of that sector of the society that had a lot of impact also on those communities that were supporting MAGA.
17:27So you have a shift of support in that sector.
17:31And then this obsession or this intervention in different moments of the international scene.
17:39Some are saying like the obsession of Trump with the Nobel Prize and talking about like solving, I don't know how many wars he says he's counting that he put to rest.
17:52It's a little bit of odd math that he has there going on, but that obsession with the international scene and being involved in everything that is happening, supposedly to like he says, or the American, the U.S. discourse says to come back to a position of power.
18:12But that was not the original meaning of America first, at least for many of the voters and for a sector of the MAGA movement.
18:22So again, we are seeing not only those domestic issues that are not being solved, but also some fractures now, not only with the Democrat Party, but within the Republican Party and within the MAGA movement.
18:36And that is why we were saying we need to see how long he can continue with all of these topics.
18:44And I think that you were completely right.
18:46The United States continues to do this in terms of trying to divert what is happening inside the country with its actions,
18:55very attention grasping actions outside in the international sphere with this idea and this narrative that they continue to impose,
19:07that they are so something like the police of the world.
19:10They're trying to divert attention.
19:12But again, it is curious how this is not the party that was supposed to be doing that.
19:20They were supposed to being to withdraw from all the international conflicts with an effort of prioritizing the issues of U.S. citizens.
19:31So we're going to see how that plays out.
19:34Of course, apparently they have decided and they are making a bet on that international scene,
19:40because if you see the headlines, Donald Trump appears to be like more invested in commenting on every conflict going on around the world
19:52in which they are directly involved in than what is happening inside his own country,
19:58for example, in Minnesota, with the killing of demonstrators that are protesting on the streets
20:05against the deployment of federal agents, against the repression of on migration.
20:12So you have like two things there that are happening at the same time that, again, I think speak to the double side,
20:22like this double edged sword that they are using and that could come back on them
20:29if the results are not what they are expecting.
20:32Of course, this is not to say that everything that they are doing are not going to have terrible impacts across the world.
20:39Like the military aggressions that they did had a lot of casualties.
20:43They are bringing a lot of harm on the populations that they are targeting.
20:48So this is not to just take away from the impact of what they're doing.
20:55On the contrary, I think that they are leaving us with a much more aggressive world in their in their intention to consolidate that power.
21:04The only thing is that even if Trump is showing himself like super confident and and trying to show the world that they got this in the bag,
21:17that they know what they're doing, that everything goes according to the plan, I think that we need to wait and see if that is really the case.
21:25And another major point is what you were saying about the allies.
21:29So, yes, the pressure tactics of the United States with the tariff war is being effective in some case in terms of forcing some countries to align themselves with the U.S. interests.
21:46They have been able to make countries make huge compromises that they were not willing to do because they threatened them with huge tariffs, for example.
21:57But also you are seeing that, as you were saying, long term allies are now a little bit more hesitant.
22:05And maybe that way of negotiating only through force or through imposition can be very effective in the short term.
22:17But in the long term, states start looking at other possibilities because you cannot continue to look into the future and see that you're always going to be having to compromise your own needs because the other power will, if not, impose a sanction or impose a tariff at will.
22:38So, I think that the position of the European countries, the position of Canada that you were mentioning, we need to look at it in that perspective.
22:49And also, when we're thinking about this, a lot of the analysts are continuously mentioning China.
22:57Like the other major power here is China, the alternative for many of these countries in order to associate with another major power in the world is to strengthen those relationships.
23:15How is that being perceived from China?
23:18The New York Times just published an article a couple of weeks ago, maybe.
23:26It's titled, America has given up the Cold War against China.
23:33And they also said that two decades ago, many Americans assumed that the Beijing model would collapse.
23:41One decade ago, some people began to realize that the U.S. may fail to stop China from rising rhapsody.
23:50Over the past year, more and more Americans questioned whether the U.S. has already lost the battle.
23:57So, I think that's what we are seeing right now.
24:00And what Carney said at the Davos, actually, it's like common sense in China.
24:08And it has been repeated by global South countries for a million times by us, right?
24:16So, people just find it surprising when it comes from someone from the traditional U.S. allies, from some Western leaders.
24:29And that's the only thing surprising here.
24:31But it doesn't affect the fact that the world is changing drastically.
24:38And the old U.S., that world order is kind of collapsing.
24:45And the multi-polar world order is emerging.
24:50But we are just not sure what exactly the future is moving to.
24:56But we are definitely seeking for alternatives in every field, I would say, like economically, politically, and ideologically.
25:11So, I think that's what most people in China would agree.
25:15And we may argue that this shift comes a bit late, but it's never too late.
25:24So, we are seeing that after Carney's visit, and maybe some of the European countries, they would follow a similar path.
25:32And also, for Latin America, the China and the Latin American countries have already built kind of good relations, especially in the economic field.
25:45So, yeah, how does the Latin American countries show that, show the alternatives?
25:55I think that it's about what we were saying before regarding the possibility of building those alternatives, building those bridges in order to continue to move forward.
26:09You were just talking about the emerging multi-polar world, and I think that many of what we are talking about, much of that has to do, the actions of the United States has to do with trying to crush the possibilities of that multi-polar world from consolidating.
26:28From really consolidating as an alternative in terms of the economy of the world, from consolidating as an alternative for, for example, thinking about a future in which the U.S. dollar is not the most relevant and sole currency for all world trade.
26:49Well, we had seen in past years steps being taken in that direction.
26:56And if that situation consolidates, it would not only take the United States from the center of the complete world trade, but also it would be devastating to the entire U.S. economy because it is based on holding that position.
27:16So I think that the United States is reacting very aggressively using and taking advantage of a world that is changing, a world that has allowed for more violent action and a world that also not only has allowed more violent action,
27:33has also shown that these structures that were built in order to prevent great full-on wars like were the world wars, for example, those institutions like the United Nations were failing.
27:48And I think that is something that both Trump, the left, like every analyst is in some way saying that the United Nations was failing or at least has problems and things that was not being just fulfilling its purpose.
28:08It wasn't fulfilling its purpose when it just run past a two-year full-on genocide and could not do anything to stop it beyond the positions and denunciations and condemnations.
28:24But in the territory, nothing could change up until a ceasefire was agreed upon.
28:34And even then, the violence continued, the blockade continues, and up to this point, the possibility for a sovereign solution to a sovereign alternative for that territory continues to be out of the table.
28:50Of course, an important part of the world, an important part of the left, and I think that many Latin American governments are of that idea, are thinking of how to strengthen that institution.
29:05They are thinking about how to improve that United Nations with more sovereign participation, with more discussion and real mechanisms for the global South to be able to take action on the world,
29:23for collaborative action to be able to take action on issues that are affecting everyone, and particularly the global South, such as the climate crisis, just so that we're not just talking about wars.
29:38So there is a push on that there is something to be done, and it needs to be to strengthen those institutions.
29:48Now, Donald Trump is taking, from that same analysis, a completely different conclusion.
29:56He is saying that, well, this is not working, and we'll try this completely new thing.
30:02It's violent, it's imposition, its diplomacy is old now, so we just need to sit down on a table as if this was a business negotiation and there is nothing more to it.
30:15For example, the whole proposal and the creation now of the peace board, this peace board for the supposed reconstruction of Gaza has that idea.
30:30He, as always, Donald Trump continues to go back and forth regarding how this board will relate to the existing institutions like the United Nations.
30:42Actually, such a board was approved by the United Nations as a way of handling the conflict.
30:49But they have also played around with the possibility that this is the new United Nations, that this is the new way of settling conflicts around the world.
31:02Instead of being a way that is more sovereign, with more participation of the global South, more fair, he is proposing a way in which the United States is at the center.
31:15It's the only one deciding who comes in or out.
31:18He's the only one deciding who has veto power or not.
31:22He is, in some ways, strengthening everything that was not fair or that was being criticized from the global South regarding that institution that is decades old, that is the United Nations.
31:38So, again, he is proposing a new world order that strengthens their position.
31:44And in that sense, again, we see some countries willing to see what is happening, understanding that this is a new world and that they need to participate, even if it's participate to condition, participate to like oppose a view.
32:02And then you have also countries that are long term allies of the United States that are at least for the moment standing a little bit hesitant of all of these new changes because they understand that the United States is using this opportunity to completely like go all out into a new possibility of strengthening that dominance.
32:29So that is what we are seeing and from Latin America, it has to do with finding the situation in which the global South has in the international arena, a voice of its own.
32:47And I think that for a long time, we understood that that voice, the voice of the global South is not the voice of one single country.
32:57It's not even the voice of a single region, but the unity of the Latin American government is one of the factors that many seem to understand is key in order to have an opinion at that world arena that is completely changing.
33:19And that unity is especially what the United States with its intervention in the region, an intervention that has a lot of different ways.
33:29It can be a military aggression and the kidnapping of a president.
33:34It can be a brutal, cruel blockade on Cuba that is trying to completely suffocate at the expense of the economy, at the expense of the people living there.
33:45But it can also be an intervention in the ways of helping with a huge amount of loans, several governments that are willing to align themselves with the U.S.
33:56All that intervention is seeking to break those ties of unity within the region.
34:03So in Latin America, that is what's at stake.
34:08A unified position, when Latin America was able to unify its own demands, even through governments that were not completely aligned within each other,
34:19but they could, at an international sphere, be able to back same positions.
34:26Latin America was much stronger in terms of being able to negotiate with the rest of the world, its own demands, its own conditions.
34:35And when Latin America was completely divided, then the strength of each government is very much diminished and the imposition of the global powers is much more powerful in the territory.
34:52So that push for either unity or breaking those bonds and those ties is what is happening in this territory.
35:02Now, in this changing world, in this world in which we are seeing further escalation, in some cases, it's been leading to military action.
35:11In others, it's just threats of possible military actions.
35:15But definitely, it's a world in which the United States is saying the use of force is possible right now.
35:23I think that for many decades after World War II, a lot of the major powers, even if they continue to carry on wars, because the wars never stopped,
35:33but they were sort of like, at least in public, saying that they were against war.
35:39I think that the novelty of Donald Trump is that he is saying, I will use war.
35:46I will use force.
35:48And that is what is shaking up the situation.
35:53How do you think this is perceived, this new forms of escalation?
35:58How are they perceived in China by the people?
36:00Is there a sense that these escalations could lead to more real, full-on conflicts around the world?
36:09Is there a sense that this could impact China directly, even both from being directly involved in a conflict or from just intervening in any of the conflicts around the world?
36:23Is this a topic of discussion?
36:25Yeah, it has always been a topic, a hot topic here.
36:30It reminds me of an old saying, it may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but it's fatal to be America's allies.
36:42So what you just say that keeps reminding me of this thing.
36:47I think, of course, we are seeing a world with all these conflicts, with all these all kinds of close to wars.
36:59But I think it may be some means some opportunities for for global sales, for Latin American, of course, for China and for China's relations of of other other countries.
37:14Let's take Canada as an example.
37:18Like after during the Canada, Canada's Carnet visit in Beijing this time.
37:25And I think they signed a bunch of agreements on economics, on trade and also in on like cultural and education cooperation.
37:37So I think from China's perspective, it's always beneficial to get a deeper engagement with Canada and also other so-called middle power countries.
37:51And from Canada's perspective, it's it's also it also helps.
37:56It's that it's actually a mutual beneficial relations.
37:59If you are being allies with the US that you will worry about that if you sign some agreements today and Trump will tackle tomorrow or Trump will just turn around tomorrow.
38:13But if you sign some agreements with China, it comes with very high level of stability and predictability.
38:21So it means a lot for, I would say, for any ministry of foreign affairs, ministry of commerce of most of the countries.
38:30So everyone can see it as a huge advantage.
38:34You don't have to worry that China will turn around tomorrow.
38:38So I think this kind of relation will set up a good example for for other countries in other words.
38:49So we may see we may see similar agreements coming with the Britain and with with Germany.
38:57I'm not sure if these if these cooperation will execute to what extent if they are going to implement it completely.
39:09But it will definitely show the world that we have some alternatives and you will definitely get the US more pressure that he cannot just keep pushing, pushing the lines all the world and also trying to police all around the world all the time.
39:28And I think also for the US, besides the external pressure, it also has some internal pressure to deal with, for example, besides the economic issue we just talked about and also the the ice crackdown you just you just brought up.
39:47So Trump has so many things to do that the US has so many things happened at the same time.
39:54So it's like here and there, like today in Greenland and tomorrow at Iran or somewhere else.
40:01So it may come a little bit far beyond the US capacity.
40:07So there, there, there, there, there is very likely to be something it cannot deal with it as smoothly as as it did before.
40:16So that will be, that will be, that will mean brand new opportunities for the global south.
40:23That's the biggest part I can see right now.
40:26I was thinking about what you were saying and the possibilities of this leading to more opportunities for the global south.
40:34And I was thinking how I completely agree.
40:38I just think that this is a matter of long term effects and short term effects, and also that each region is affected in a different way.
40:52And Latin America at this moment is in the focus, in the center of all of these conflicts.
40:59So I believe, as you were saying, that there is one thing I think in discussion right now, there's one thing that I believe both analysts and governments are probably looking at.
41:16And that is, if the actions of the United States at the different levels that they are taking them, are they going to have any consequences, any bad consequences or repercussions for them?
41:32In other words, is pushing all of these red lines going to have an effect, a backlash on them or not?
41:41If they do have a consequence and effect, either in the short or long term, then we could be seeing a new world order, but we could go back to a sort of way of reshaping that international arena with certain agreements among the states that will have to be renegotiated.
42:08But I could go back to, OK, what can and can't be done, for example, kidnapping a president, can't be done, that that should be back on the table.
42:21If the United States in the short or long term does not face any consequences, then we would be shifting into another world order, maybe more aligned to what they are proposing with the United States once again consolidating as the only dominant leader of the trade economy in the world,
42:48of the Western Hemisphere, of the Western Hemisphere and the way to impose that dominance on the rest of the world.
42:56So that is what's at stake.
42:58And I think that if we're looking at those consequences, they could come through two main ways.
43:07One would be this question of the allies that you were saying.
43:11And these are never short term.
43:14These changes do not happen overnight because diplomacy and international relations have a long term effect in a long term process of just these things developing.
43:29But the question of the allies are the states in the long run going to favor other types of partnerships, for example, to escape the unpredictability that you were just mentioning.
43:43Is this in the long run going to turn certain powers of Europe or other allies like Canada or other major Latin American countries like Mexico, Brazil towards other sorts of alliances that are more reliable?
44:04That is one of the questions.
44:06And the other, and I think that is a little bit more immediate and very, very powerful, is the consequence of the response of the population.
44:17And that will happen across the world.
44:20But I think that has particular significance in the United States itself.
44:24Is the population of the United States going to support, to back this government and the actions it's taking across the world, but with a direct impact in its own population right now?
44:40Because different to other moments in history, the society within the United States is not completely separated from what the United States is doing across the world, outside its own borders.
44:57There is a direct connection.
45:00It has to do with the diversity of the U.S. population.
45:06It has to do with the interconnection of the global markets.
45:11A lot has changed in the past decade.
45:14But right now, there is a direct connection between what the United States is doing outside its borders and what's happening inside its borders.
45:22And is that population going to continue to allow this to happen?
45:27Or are the demonstrations on the streets, are the organizations that continue to rise?
45:34And we have seen that throughout 2025.
45:37And it doesn't seem to be able to stop right now.
45:41It is a real concern of the administration of Donald Trump, how they are going to manage that internal situation.
45:49Well, maybe that is the way in which one of the most hard consequences could come about for the U.S. administration.
46:01And then we have demonstrations across the global south.
46:05Then we have the people on the streets on the same countries that the United States is targeting.
46:12So I think the question of the allies, what are they going to do?
46:16And the question of the population, the people on the streets, what are they going to do?
46:20That will determine whether we go into a world in which the United States can just continue to keep pushing red lines with no consequences.
46:31Or if those consequences are coming, they're just not here just yet.
46:37I think that is something of what is being discussed at this moment.
46:42I go to you, Tiang-Jang.
46:44What are your final thoughts on the matter?
46:46Yes, I totally agree.
46:49So for the people, for the country outside America, for the rest of the world, the most urgent action maybe they should take is to set and enforce a red line.
47:06So to let the U.S. see that what they are doing do have the consequences.
47:12That's what we don't have right now.
47:15So like people are talking, keep talking about like how should we take back, how should we talk back around the international law?
47:25But I don't think the U.S. is going to give it a shit.
47:29So maybe something else.
47:31I don't know.
47:31I could not imagine this time.
47:33And Europe may be go through some turning points right now because like before this whole Greenland thing, like they never say a word about international law when the U.S. come all around the world.
47:46And this time they finally wake up and say, oh, where is the international law?
47:51How can you how can you just break it?
47:53We will see how the Europe will move next step.
47:56And it may be something we can keep an eye on.
47:59And also inside the United States, we will see how these people how these people are doing.
48:08If they keep their kind of like moderate reform, reformist approach as they do.
48:16And they had to they already had a lot of like protests, demonstration.
48:21They even have everyone has the guns and it doesn't mean anything.
48:26Like they don't even know that who is their real enemy.
48:29So they have to figure out that who is the real enemy.
48:32Like the whole the whole ice crackdown thing.
48:35They are just making people hate each other.
48:37And so no one knows no one knows who they should actually hate.
48:43So no one is going to hate the U.S. governments.
48:45No one is going to hate the U.S. capital, the interest group.
48:48They just hate each other.
48:50Like the MAGA hates the immigrants and the immigrants hates the MAGA.
48:55So that's that's nothing.
48:57It's going to make zero process.
48:59That will be the biggest things the U.S. people need to figure out.
49:02So there are all the work inside the U.S. and outside the U.S.
49:07Yeah, I would totally agree with what what you just wrote out.
49:12And you were saying nobody is hating on the great capitalist industries.
49:18Everyone is hating and targeting those political sectors.
49:22And maybe that is something that we need to continue to talk on on our next episode,
49:29because definitely there's something there that is always escaping us.
49:34And it's the fact that this is not just people acting randomly because they want a lot of power,
49:42because they go crazy and they want to dominate the world.
49:45These are economical interests that want to continue to be at the top with a level of profit
49:54that need to reproduce themselves and that has certain consequences for the world.
50:00And that takes the government to take certain actions.
50:03So definitely there's something there to continue.
50:06Exactly.
50:07So we will continue to have this conversations.
50:10This was another episode of Overlap, a conversation from across the world.
50:15So stay tuned for more.
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